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  1. #1
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Thw world court in the Hague finds against Israels security fence.

    And the hypocrits ignore British ''peace wall'' in Northern Ireland;

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos...k3.htm#lanark3

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1592084.stm

    http://www.corsophotos.com/images/Peace_Wall.JPG

    Despite the fact that the security fence in Israel has been shown to work, and Britains ''peace wall'' in Northern Ireland has been almost a complete failure.

  2. #2
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    The world hates the state of Isreal. If not for American Support They would be eliminated they are one of the closest if not the closest ally we have. The worlds changing my friend soon our old friends are going to be new enemy's. Socialism is taking over the world.

  3. #3
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    F the UN! they say a wall is illegal? i guess suicide bombing is just a new sport.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DF2003
    F the UN! they say a wall is illegal? i guess suicide bombing is just a new sport.
    The UN is currupt and weak countries have way too much say in it's affairs Ex. France

  5. #5
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    I think the UN only had real decision making ability before we wnt to war with Iraq, after bush decided to go regardless it made the UN meetings just 'social dinners' with no significance

  6. #6
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    the wall was a bad malicious racist idea it will isolate the palestian ppl from the world its like a very big prison and big prison or small prison are the same i think the UN took a good decision plus the world nuclear agency agent baradii will visit israel to inspect for the nuclear and mass destruction weapons and thats a good step too ,Israel can no more hide its crimes and mistakes so now everyone in the world know what Israel is plus Sharon is very close to be assasinated because their is a big corrupting in the israeli governement.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK103
    the wall was a bad malicious racist idea it will isolate the palestian ppl from the world its like a very big prison and big prison or small prison are the same i think the UN took a good decision plus the world nuclear agency agent baradii will visit israel to inspect for the nuclear and mass destruction weapons and thats a good step too ,Israel can no more hide its crimes and mistakes so now everyone in the world know what Israel is plus Sharon is very close to be assasinated because their is a big corrupting in the israeli governement.

    The UN is corrupt. The oil for food Scandal is just one more example. The world courts finding dsnt mean jack unless the un can pass a resolution calling for its deconstruction. This is a unanimous vote by the Security Counsel Countries. The USA has already said there not voting for it. As for it being a prison give me a break, if the PLO wanted peace they would have it. Arafat ever time he gets want he wants he wants more. They want total elimination of the Jewish State. Besides if they stopped homicide bombings which supports over 30 percent of there Economy the same people who try to kill isreali's would be after the palestinian goverment. You can not negoitate with terrorists. Besides its not like Arafat controls the country Ha-mas controls Arafat and ther based in Lebanon which is controlled by Syria. So give me a break when u talk about this issue. Your argument only wins with the uneducated and when i mean uneducated i mean people who havent had first hand looks at what happens there.

  8. #8
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK103
    the wall was a bad malicious racist idea it will isolate the palestian ppl from the world its like a very big prison and big prison or small prison are the same i think the UN took a good decision plus the world nuclear agency agent baradii will visit israel to inspect for the nuclear and mass destruction weapons and thats a good step too ,Israel can no more hide its crimes and mistakes so now everyone in the world know what Israel is plus Sharon is very close to be assasinated because their is a big corrupting in the israeli governement.

    So would you say that same about Britains wall in Northern Ireland?.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    So would you say that same about Britains wall in Northern Ireland?.
    yea of corse britain is no better then israel actualy britain is the make and creator of israel and britain has done bad things in irland

  10. #10
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    But AK, the fence in Israel is made to keep murderers out and to protect the innocent to live in peace and freedom. Britains wall, and the berlin wall to a far greater extent were built to keep oppressed people further oppressed and away from the things we take for granted, like our freedom.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    But AK, the fence in Israel is made to keep murderers out and to protect the innocent to live in peace and freedom. Britains wall, and the berlin wall to a far greater extent were built to keep oppressed people further oppressed and away from the things we take for granted, like our freedom.
    and who told you that the palestians are not opressed maybe u r watching too mush israeli media and propaganda and u r ignoring the suffer of palestians no mediction ,school are not opened all the time ,israel take the land and destroy their houses what would u do if someone come to your house with a big military bobcat and detroy your house I think now the palestians are the most opressed ppl in the world...and all of this is caused by britain making an israeli state in the middleast ... just think 1 minute if their no israel how the peace will roam all the middleast!

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK103
    and who told you that the palestians are not opressed maybe u r watching too mush israeli media and propaganda and u r ignoring the suffer of palestians no mediction ,school are not opened all the time ,israel take the land and destroy their houses what would u do if someone come to your house with a big military bobcat and detroy your house I think now the palestians are the most opressed ppl in the world...and all of this is caused by britain making an israeli state in the middleast ... just think 1 minute if their no israel how the peace will roam all the middleast!
    First off, I've served in the middle east and have been to Israel many, many times. But going to your last line..

    Ok lets imagine no Israel in the Middle East. China and Russia would then have had control of the M.E.'s oil supplies. Russia's threat to the west via the Rhine would have been far far greater and (possibly) America wouldn't be the world super power it is now.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    First off, I've served in the middle east and have been to Israel many, many times. But going to your last line..

    Ok lets imagine no Israel in the Middle East. China and Russia would then have had control of the M.E.'s oil supplies. Russia's threat to the west via the Rhine would have been far far greater and (possibly) America wouldn't be the world super power it is now.
    well my logic is better and wiser because i strated with this :
    isreal====>war and blood in the ME.
    so
    no (israel)====>no(war and blood in the ME)
    but u r saying that
    no (israel)====>china and russian taking over the ME and thats a principe error

  14. #14
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    So what your solution to the problem AK103 annilate all the jews? Who has control over palestine anyways? Arafat? Hamas ? Hezllobah? That government is ran by a terrorist or terrorists. I saw on the news today where palestianian business men bought around 15 percent of the concrete to make the wall and sold it to Isreal. They did this for profit matter of fact some palestinians want peace but as long as there are terrorists who run that country there will be none.. Even if there was no Isreal State there would still be war. Why because Religon if u dont believe the same way they do your gonna die? Tell me the logic in that?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT2k
    So what your solution to the problem AK103 annilate all the jews? Who has control over palestine anyways? Arafat? Hamas ? Hezllobah? That government is ran by a terrorist or terrorists. I saw on the news today where palestianian business men bought around 15 percent of the concrete to make the wall and sold it to Isreal. They did this for profit matter of fact some palestinians want peace but as long as there are terrorists who run that country there will be none.. Even if there was no Isreal State there would still be war. Why because Religon if u dont believe the same way they do your gonna die? Tell me the logic in that?
    look palestinian only want their stolen lands give them the land and nothing bad will happen anymor and the ME will be a better place,sharon dont want peace and he is no better that milocevithch and saddam he is war criminal

  16. #16
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    Sure...terrorists can peacefully run a country. Besides, your "stolen land" comment is a matter of perspective. You will never believe differently, even though Palestine is not a recognized country. By your logic all Americans should be killed, as well as any other country that has expanded its borders through force dating back through all of history. Show me a country with borders, and I bet the majority have some kind of barrier protecting it from immigrants, etc.
    Last edited by sigrabbit; 07-14-2004 at 09:19 AM.

  17. #17
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Actually regarding the fence. The concrete used is supplied by CRH here in Ireland and A Jordanian company!. And regarding the land 'stolen' from Palestinians, well before the '67 war the West Bank was occupied by Jordan!. And Gaza was lost by the Eyptians, the Golan was taken from Syria after it (Syria) launched a second attack on Israel over the Golan. Arabs really shouldn't pick fights with Israel, 'to the victor goes the spoils'!.

    Some interesting historic tours!;

    http://www.conceptwizard.com/nutoo/nutshell3.html

    http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html

    http://www.conceptwizard.com/trial/trial.html

  18. #18
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    Something very basic is being ignored here. In pretty much all the human rights statements and charters, the right to live is the first most important right, and it comes before the right to property etc. How can those who claim to defend human rights ignore the right of Israelis to live and see the right of the Palestinians to their land as more important?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DF2003
    F the UN! they say a wall is illegal? i guess suicide bombing is just a new sport.

    Nope, it wasn't the UN. It was the World Court in Brussells.

    Y'all may not find the UN worth much, and neither did our beloved president, George Bush, but now he's discovered he needs 'em to come in and clean up the big mess he made in Iraq. Actually, he's counting on them helping, so he can start calling troops home in time for the November election.

    After that, he can start another war, then transfer more tax money from social programs for the poor to programs to help rich corporations, send more of you guys to terrorist-filled countries to fight wars started on trumped-up charges, to get shot at so the oil companies can pump more foreign oil. Meanwhile, he will keep adding to the national debt, counting on y'all not understanding what it is, so his friends can make more profits now and y'all can pay the bill later -- by doing without social security, medicare, medicaid, and all that . . .
    LOL . . . if that's what you want to vote for, be my guest.
    -Tock

  20. #20
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    Oh i will be your guest. 1. If we take anymore hits from Some middle eastern scum bags we arent going to have anything because our economy will die. 2. Where are the trumped up charges? What we shoulda did what Clinton did in 97 and send 1 single Tomahawk Cruise Missle over to Afganistan ya that really worked. Not only did the UN have 13 resolutions agaisnt Iraq the rest of the world's Intel Agencies had the same info we did on his WMD programs. 3. The UN is a joke, they have no control over anything. Look at all the peace keeping debacles they have went through. In Sierra Leone in 1994 the government had to us Executive Outcomes a private group of mercenaries of about 300 to do the job of 18k peacekeepers Executive Outcomes had the situation undercontrol then they let the UN in and look what happend another 100k people killed. 4. The USA pays the bills of the UN and we asked them to join us they didnt the reason why is because atleast 3 members of the security counsel were involved in the Oil for food Scandal. If u dont beleive me ask anyone who has Served in Iraq and ask them how many pieces of French Artillary peices they have found. So ya im voting for Bush sorry that you feel the way you do.

  21. #21
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    making me laugh bouncer. how can you hint at justifications for republicanism (the irish kind) when the IRA and the PLO have been in bed more than a few times over the years?

    i *HATED* Thatcher and the shoot to kill mandate. but in the end blood will always follow blood

    Bouncer there are bastards on both sides of the fence my friend, billyboys on one side and fenians on the other. i mourn the sanity of anyone who preaches the merits of bigotry and hatred.

    imagine what fun it is growing up as i did, with proddy mother and a catholic father.

    Or have you forgotten how some "oppressed" people oppressed some other people in Omagh?

    as regards Israel, you seem to view the Palestinians as being totally in the wrong.. i think the situation in that part of the world is far more complex. in mentioning hypocrisy, its ingenuous in the extreme to insist that Israel is whiter than white. all these twats have blood on their hands.

  22. #22
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    re. the UN

    well i worked for them and they are robbing bastards. i did the work wheres my feckin money? they owe me £18,000 (thats a lot of cash to me!)

    don't you realise how the rest of the world sees the UN as a puppet entity anyway in the pockets of the big chaps? (perhaps it is)

    i am only to quick to criticise my country when they feck something up. surely that is the function of democracy ie. it appraises and encourages its own evolution?

    it was the World Court that made the judgement that the Israeli wall was a naff idea. but what would they know? after all there were only 150 countries saying "NO it AINT COOL" against 6 who said "yeah it is cool" and 10 WHO FELT IT WASNT EVEN WORTH VOTING ON (how about that for an abuse of power - not bothering to use it!)

    for me ireland is a model country, its profited enormously from wise investment and development. scotland is an excellent example of how to not do the same.. but thats another rant hahaha.

  23. #23
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    Skinjob The world court decision is symbolic it doesnt mean anything. Isreal is a sovreign nation unless there is a security counsel resolution agaisnt it the wall will still stand. I personally think they should tear that wall down and drop the hammer on the PLO. Let Mossad do there job and thats that.

  24. #24
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    making me laugh bouncer. how can you hint at justifications for republicanism (the irish kind) when the IRA and the PLO have been in bed more than a few times over the years?

    i *HATED* Thatcher and the shoot to kill mandate. but in the end blood will always follow blood

    Bouncer there are bastards on both sides of the fence my friend, billyboys on one side and fenians on the other. i mourn the sanity of anyone who preaches the merits of bigotry and hatred.

    imagine what fun it is growing up as i did, with proddy mother and a catholic father.

    Or have you forgotten how some "oppressed" people oppressed some other people in Omagh?

    as regards Israel, you seem to view the Palestinians as being totally in the wrong.. i think the situation in that part of the world is far more complex. in mentioning hypocrisy, its ingenuous in the extreme to insist that Israel is whiter than white. all these twats have blood on their hands.
    Well for starters, I know only too bloody well about terrorists on both sides of the devide in Ulster but the onus of blaim must surely be placed squarely on the hands of successive British governments and Stormmont assembles over the hundreds of years of British oppression in Ireland. As recently as 1973 Irish catholics in Northern Ireland had NO DEMOCRATIC VOTE. Neither were they allowed representation on civil bodies or trades unions etc. In 1969 the British army came in strenght to protect the catholic population from Protestant aggression, but they outstayed their welcome!. Its a pity Scotish and Walsh nationals never rose up against the crown too.

    Regards Israel, your right, their not lilly white either. But their a country under attack, a country of 6 million (approx 4 million Jews) with their back to the sea facing an enemy of over 300 million. In theory I'm against the wall of course, and most Israeli's I know are, but what alternative do they have when faced with daily suicide bombings and other attempted to murder Jews?. I see liberal Europe has voted with the Pals and the resolution passed, well Europe will rue the day it gave support to the Palestinians.

    The I.R.A. and the P.L.O. yes indeed they've been hand in glove along time now, as have the I.R.A. and E.T.A., The Libyans, Cubans, FARC in Columbia and various other terror groups from central America to the Sudan and further afield. While I could never agree to I.R.A. terror attacks against the civilian population of England the Ulster and would question some of their military tactics against British military targets I do still agree in principle to our right to an armed struggle for a united 32 county Ireland. As Pearce said "The fools, the fools, the fools they've left us our fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves Ireland UNFREED SHALL NEVER BE AT PEACE".

    Regards the P.L.O. and Israel.. If the P.L.O. took on the might of the IDF in a purely military offensive I'd have no problem with that. But don't let them think for a moment their fighting for a land thats their's, its NEVER been theirs and if they get it won't be through terrorist attacks against the Israeli people. The peace process in Ireland and the 'truth commission' in South Africa have shown that terror attacks against a civilian population doesn't work. You have to take the gun out of the ballot box, but wait... the Pal authorities won't allow the ballot box!.

  25. #25
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    some interesting points there. i agree fully about the Eire problem. however i fail to how the palestinians never had any land, after all where were they moved from? if the land did not belong to the palestinians who were they paying rent to?

    the Vikings occupied the British Isles and Ireland and ruled much of the UK for 200 years, heavily dominating and shaping the culture there. Does that mean that a bunch of danes could arrive here and demand their freeholdings back due to notions of ownership established centuries ago?

    surely it was the brits again with their silly notions who allowed the creation of the initial settlements in Palestine that later gave way to the indominatable Israel of today?

    The problem i have with Israel is that i believe they have expelled a lot of people from land that *was* theirs. how many centuries do you have to live somewhere before it is ok to call home?

    Here is the dictionary definition of Palestine:

    A historical region of southwest Asia at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea and roughly coextensive with modern Israel and the West Bank. Occupied since prehistoric times, it has been ruled by Hebrews, Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, and Turks. A British League of Nations mandate oversaw the affairs of the area from 1920 until 1948, when Israel declared itself a separate state and the West Bank territory was occupied by Jordan. The West Bank was subsequently annexed (1950) by Jordan and occupied (1967) by Israel. In 1988 the Palestine Liberation Organization under Yasir Arafat declared its intention of forming an Arab state of Palestine, probably including the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Arab sector of Jerusalem. The Palestinians achieved limited self-rule in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 1993 and 1994

    The Zionists reason their arguments along religious lines. Actually i have a great deal of jewish blood in my own family but i feel that Israel, in particular, Sharon, are not entirely helping matters with many of their policies. Any time Israel is opposed, those disagreeing seem to be accused of anti-semitism. i feel its important to look beyond the knee jerking at the root causes of the problem. there must be a compromise that suits everyone or everyone will remain compromised in some way, shape or form

    To follow this reasoning, America should be returned to the Native Americans, Australia to the Aborigines and NZ to the Maori people? How credible is any of that?

    Israel has formidable and highly efficient, well equiped armed forces - eg the 6 day war! But surely any reasonable person must question why so many palestinians are so willing to give up thier lives to drive their point home. It is abhorrent in the extreme that people will do this but they cannot all be mad and doing it for no reason. After all Bobby Sands starved and died as a last resort, ive never known the IRA to use suicide missions to accomplish political or social effects/statements.

    re. the IRA - not soley irish soldiers

  26. #26
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    The UN

    The UN has showed over and over again that terrorism is a terrible thing unless its aimed at Israelis or jews. And that Jews do not have the right to self defence.
    In this light I am in total agreement with any and all methods Israel uses to stop the killers from entering. The Palestinians would have had there own independant state for the first time in history if not for Arafat and his crazed desire to win some sort of independance war which he fights by killing defensless woman and children by means of terrorism.

  27. #27
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    some interesting points there. i agree fully about the Eire problem. however i fail to how the palestinians never had any land, after all where were they moved from? if the land did not belong to the palestinians who were they paying rent to?
    Paying rent to?.. Oh did you know, the Pals sided with Nazi Germany during WWII because they thought they were onto a winner, messed up there. They also left their lands when their neighbouring Arab brothers told them they'd return to a conqured Israel, messed up that one too. Why won't they return, and why won't their Arab hosts allow them leave, because an open wound is a festering one, one which left open won't heal and won't be forgotten about.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    the Vikings occupied the British Isles and Ireland and ruled much of the UK for 200 years, heavily dominating and shaping the culture there. Does that mean that a bunch of danes could arrive here and demand their freeholdings back due to notions of ownership established centuries ago?
    Like the British they invaded our country, with its natural borders (the sea's). We beat both out again. I can't really see them wanting to return for another beating

    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    surely it was the brits again with their silly notions who allowed the creation of the initial settlements in Palestine that later gave way to the indominatable Israel of today?
    The British also created Kuwait (the 19th provence of Iraq) and gave Kurdistan to both Turkey, Iraq and TRans-Jordan. Didn't they give enough to the Arabs?.


    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    The problem i have with Israel is that i believe they have expelled a lot of people from land that *was* theirs ?
    Most Palestinian Arabs sold desert and swampland to Jews believing it was good for nothing, visit Israel and see whats been done with that land and wonder why they (The Arabs) want it back. I covered the problem of them leaving up above.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    Israel has formidable and highly efficient, well equiped armed forces - eg the 6 day war! But surely any reasonable person must question why so many palestinians are so willing to give up thier lives to drive their point home. It is abhorrent in the extreme that people will do this but they cannot all be mad and doing it for no reason. After all Bobby Sands starved and died as a last resort, ive never known the IRA to use suicide missions to accomplish political or social effects/statements.

    re. the IRA - not soley irish soldiers
    The I.R.A. have used Proxy-suicide missions against British military targets in Northern Ireland. Its stomach turning what they done, they'd kidnap the family and make the father drive his bomb load into a Brit checkpoint and blow himself and his load up. He'd do it believing the I.R.A. would kill his family if he didn't accomplish his task.

    Bobby Sands and the other hungry strikers starved themselves to death for a cause they believed in. They didn't put on a bomb belt, get on a bus in London or walk into a cafe/bar in Belfast and blow themselves and as many innocent civilians as they could get apart.

    England built the wall in Northern Ireland believing it would stop tit-for-tat killings in the provence, it proved to be a massive failure. Israel is building their wall to protect their civilian population and its proving a major success, but no one calls for UN resolutions against Britain to leave Northern Ireland, to dismantle its security barriers and OP's, and to close its interogation centers.

  28. #28
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    If there is too be no wall then what's the solution? Leave the boards open for any bomber to walk across and kill people who are only going about their daily lives? How can one strip of sand be so important that one person would kill another over it? Two leaders and three games of Rock-Paper-Scissors and the winner takes all bets blowing up people.

    Seems the more we try to get along the finner the line is for segrigation.

  29. #29
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    why is it that if u have a stronger millitary u can go to ppls countries, cities, houses and do what ever u please with them.ie' torture,rape, sodomize,murder just to name a few.
    If those same ppl, who don't have a military because u bomb every police station and military they try to build, fight back with thir life they r terrorists. Has anyone heard about sharon when he was the Isreael's military strongman and he massacred thousands of children women and men. Why is he not brought to "justice" is that not terrorism? In my view Sharon is comparreble to hitler. Jews of all ppl should know the terrible cost of oppression and hate. they suffered greatly from the nazis and now they are doing the same thing to the palestinians. THE HUNTED HAVE BECOME THE HUNTERS.

  30. #30
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    Bouncer i dont believe the command have *ever* afforded themselves the liberty of bombing by proxy, there is no record of any such act that i am aware of (and you would expect there to be at least one given the virulent hatred that the brits have for all things Irish Republican). As regards the Arabs 'selling' land to Jewish settlers - how could that happen if they did not own the land as you earlier assertion was that the land was not thiers (hence why would ANY Jewish person consider handing over money for it). On 29 November 1947 the United Nations voted to divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. There is no mention of money changing hands in the record of the UN. At least not between arabs and jews!


    I feel that some of your post smacks of revisionist histories. That said i can appreciate much of your general thinking and reasoning; none of this is sleight against you or jewish folks.

    Harp i think thats a bit excessive mate. however there is the little matter of Sharon and the conveniently extreme Christian Militia back in the day - he should answer as should any other evil cont eg arafat for the nasty shyte he has done.. there was a fascinating documentary about Israeli soldiers on telly recently, it detailed the before and after. Its clear that there really are no guards for the guards there. These chaps were every bit as ordinary and every bit as brutal as their opponents.

    on balance i think the arguments about what went before are largely irrelevant in the modern context. there is no impartial view; and there is little chance of solubility while both sides remain so entirely committed to the domination over the other.

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    "The world hates the state of Isreal. If not for American Support They would be eliminated they are one of the closest if not the closest ally we have. The worlds changing my friend soon our old friends are going to be new enemy's. Socialism is taking over the world."

    whats that? mcarthyisms? at a time when even china is veering towards meritocratic capitalism how can you seriously believe that the world is under the spell of socialism? everyone loves capitalism even the sodding Russians! or maybe you missed perestroika and the reunification of berlin. pmpl.

  32. #32
    Maxima is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK103
    u r ignoring the suffer of palestians no school are not opened all the time ,israel take the land and destroy their houses what would u do if someone come to your house with a big military bobcat and detroy your house I think now the palestians are the most opressed ppl in the world...and all of this is caused by britain making an israeli state in the middleast ... just think 1 minute if their no israel how the peace will roam all the middleast!
    Not on the up and up with your history I see, I am amazed that people comment on this situation without doing a little reading.

    The section known as Israel was occupied by many different people. From the Romans to the British. In 1947 the British gave it to Israel in reaction to the Holocaust in Germany. The day after Israel was declared a state seven neighboring Arab armies Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared Israel were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier. They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because they wanted to get out of the way while the Arab armies destroyed the Jews, then afterwards they would return to reclaim their homes and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. So when people speak as though Israel came in and drove out the Arab inhabitence they need to consider that those people left on their own banking on the fact that the Jews would be defeated and that they would be able to come back in and claim their land.

    The result of the war and the Israel's pushing the Arabs back led to a larger area than was claimed in 1947. Had the Arabs not attacked, Israel would be 15% smaller. What remained was gobbled up by Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem.

    From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria (West Bank & Jerusalem) and Gaza were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there.

    Arafat created the PLO in 1964 which sole purpose was to kill Israel's and push them into the sea. Why didn't he ask the then occupyer of the West Bank, Jordan, for a seperate Palestinian state??

    In 1967 the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized to once again strike down Israel and the battle cry Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" was heard through the Arab world. But an oppressed people who had been burned, skinned and gassed for years vented their anger and won against the invading armies, in the process of pushing the Jordanians, and Syrians back )in a defensive war) they also won the Gaza strip and West Bank.

    Had a war not been started by Arabs against Israel, the West Bank and Gaza would still be occupied by Arabs. Now all of a sudden Arrafat says he wants a seperate Palestinian state (again why didn't he ask for it when those area's were under Arab control.) He convinces people that is Palestinian land (what ever that means, Jordan and Egypt owned that land, there was never any Palestine state) and people start suicide bombing innocents in Israel by buying into this crap.

    So now Israel says we will give you a lot of the West Bank and Gaza (which Arabs used to set up attacks against Israel and which Israel won in a DEFENSIVE WAR) if you just stop bombing us. Of course this is unacceptable since the Arabs in that region will only accept the death of Israel much like terrorists will only accept the death of Americans.

    In 1993 the Oslo accord was signed where Israel would give sections of the West Bank and Gaza to palestine (what ever that is) and the PLO would remove sections from it's charter that called for liquidation of the Jews, and that stated that Palestinians denied the right of Israels to exist. Negotiators on both sides were awarded Noble Peace Prizes for their efforts. Factions of the PLO regected the acceptance of the Jews and terrorist strikes once again became a part of daily activity, as a result Israel did not pull out of those area's specified (that were used in 1967 as formation ground for the Syrian, Jordanian invasion.)

    I hear people saying that the Palestinian people are oppressed and that the Israel's have an unfair advantage because the US backs them. The truth is that at anytime Israel could blow up the Palestinians or defeat other neighboring states that spread propaganda worse than was spread in Germany. Their new solution is a wall, they just want to be left alone since diplomacy and peace talks fall through.

    The PLO and Hamas are promoting a fearfull bread of new terrorists in the coming generations. Children are being programed to dream about becoming suicide bombers and kill Jews and non Muslims. The truth is that 90% of major world conflicts today are Muslims killing non Muslims.

    And AK103 palestinians still have schools their just not teaching math, science and instead teaching hate and that killing infidels is what makes you great. If you want to see it first hand take a look at this.

    http://soberingup.brinkster.net/ETerrorMovie.html

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    Harp is offline Junior Member
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    maxima good post. I would like to point out that the angry opressed skinned and gassed ppl were on the verge of loosing the war were it not for the americans military help. the fact is that jewish ppl r very succesful. they work hard and relentlessly and invovlve themselves in all facets of society. this includes the mainstream media. jews allso have the biggest political loby in the US. they practically run the american govt. It is widely speculated that bush sr lost re election because he denied Israel of grants ie' cold hard america$. towards the end of his term due to differences on how Israel was behaving on the world stage. this was a very small amount,mabe in the millions as opposed to some 5to6 Billion $ US gives to Israel every year. and the economy had something to do with it ofcourse.the american media is virtually run by the jewish ppl. anything that Israel does is allmost guaranteed backing by US as no govt would stand a chance of re election because of the media blitz that would follow if they did'nt back Israel.The fact is jews are no longer oppresed,every ppl have been oppressed at one point of history or other and Israel is smart for not letting the world forget about when they were oppresed. As the leader of Indonesia recently said there are only 10 million jews in the world and they run the world by proxy there are billions of muslims but they r the worse off even after possesing all the riches of oil. Did you all know that Israel was allmost in Africa before it was decided it would be in Palestine. Yes its true it allmost happend but historic rights to land of the jews changed to palestine form nw africa due to political and god knows what other reasons.

  34. #34
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    great post

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxima
    Not on the up and up with your history I see, I am amazed that people comment on this situation without doing a little reading.
    http://soberingup.brinkster.net/ETerrorMovie.html
    Fantastic post. I havent seen that video before however I have seen the video of Palestinian Children TV shows where they sing about killing jews and being great martyrs. Its absolutly sickening. But the world will never bat an eye as long as the victims are jews.

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    Harp is offline Junior Member
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    absolutely sickening. Terrorism is evil and their is no debate on that but this video is absolutely sickening i must say I did not watch this propoganda at it's worst in it's entirety. I have watched too many nazi propoganda videos on the history channel where they portray the jews as rats who manifest themselves in gutters and cary plagues. that allso made me sick. I am nor muslim nor a jew so I have a unbiassed view, putting kids in crosshairs of a shotgun to use as propoganda is sick.
    Fact-- in Hebron 600 jews live in settlements amongst 240,000 pallestinians. 85% of the water supply is diverted to the few hundred jews. they have running water swimming pools and everything else u would in any nice american neighbourhood. The pallestinians? well they have to share bathing water so that everyone can have a bath.wich I might point out is done with a bucket and cup to save water not a shower or bathtub. these ppl r given water on ration meening they only get so much water per month while their neighbours guarded by one of the most advanced armies in the world enjoy their kids having water fights on lush green lawns and their sprinklers running. what would you do if your kid had no food and safe drinking water, u live in a refugee camp, ur houses r demolished and u have no country to call your own because some ppl who follow a different god lived there two thousand yrs ago and r back to take their land backed by history's most powerfull army and nation, US and some guy who got a free pass to immigrate here from russia because he is the right religion lives first world life next to ur tent city. I have a little boy and god forbid if he goes hungary and thirsty I would move heaven and earth to feed him.we in N America have no clue what it's like to live occupied in you own country.We can not even imagine what it would be to live like the pallstinians live. how many palestinian children have died in this conflict and how many jewish children. do the math it's not even close. I've seen that video too where the twelve yr old boy is trying to hide behind his father against a brick wall while the israele army shoots at him the little boy is killed and the video is played a couple of times on cnn. Who was holding the gun and who's child was in the crosshairs? that is what the little kids were singing about in the vedio Singern is reffering to . THey were saying for every drop of a martyr's blood another boy will be born, to a brave mother to ensure the existance of pallestinians.martyr being the twelve yr old boy shot in cold blood in broad daylight filmed by a visiting foreign camera crew. Oh and why were the soldiers shootin machineguns at these ppl? because some kids were throing rocks at the soldiers becauses their houses were being bulldozed.

  36. #36
    Maxima is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harp
    I would like to point out that the angry opressed skinned and gassed ppl were on the verge of loosing the war were it not for the americans military help.
    Where are you reading that the Israel's were about to lose the war, which of the wars are you talking about???

    Also I think you are confusing the American military with the British military but then again it depends on which war you are speaking of as to whether the Israel's had any military assistance at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harp
    absolutely sickening. Terrorism is evil and their is no debate on that but this video is absolutely sickening i must say I did not watch this propoganda at it's worst in it's entirety. I am nor muslim nor a jew so I have a unbiassed view, putting kids in crosshairs of a shotgun to use as propoganda is sick.
    Watch the whole video, the main purpose is to show what is going on with the manipulation of the palestinian children through school and other contexts. For you to understand what is coming from the next generation of palestinians you have to watch the whole vid.

    Fact-- in Hebron 600 jews live in settlements amongst 240,000 pallestinians. 85% of the water supply is diverted to the few hundred jews. they have running water swimming pools and everything else u would in any nice american neighbourhood. The pallestinians? well they have to share bathing water so that everyone can have a bath.
    Again the only reason Arabs do not own that land is because of the war they started.

    these ppl r given water on ration meening they only get so much water per month while their neighbours guarded by one of the most advanced armies in the world enjoy their kids having water fights on lush green lawns and their sprinklers running.
    Does the US get water from Canada or vice versa??? What would palestine do if they had their own state, still rely on Israel for water?? This makes no sense, why does anyone have to give another so called state anything for it to survive, especially when that state would slaughter them without hesitation.

    what would you do if your kid had no food and safe drinking water
    Oh I don't know learn about plumbing and irrigation systems rather than how to make bombs???

    u live in a refugee camp
    Because you either left the country because you thought you would have free reign on the land after the Jews were slaughtered, or you provoked an attack and in the process of the fight lost your land.

    u have no country to call your own because some ppl who follow a different god lived there two thousand yrs ago and r back to take their land
    Umm like was stated why wasn't a palestinian state started when Arabs in Jordan owned that land?? Palestine was never a state or a country!!!!

    Again read up, the land belonged to the British and it was given to them, they didn't take it. Many different countries owned that section of land overtime.

    backed by history's most powerfull army and nation, US and some guy who got a free pass to immigrate here from russia because he is the right religion lives first world life next to ur tent city.
    This doesn't even make sense. America is about freedom of religion or no religion at all. The muslims surrounding Israel want to kill Israel's because of their religion, get your facts straight.


    I have a little boy and god forbid if he goes hungary and thirsty I would move heaven and earth to feed him.
    Would you go as far as getting a job or learning a trade, what a concept!!!! Would you send your child to a school where he could learn a trade, or would you send him to learn about becoming a suicide bomber?? The palestinian people are oppressed by their own government. Araffat lives it up while the people in the region suffer. If the people were not suffering they would have somthing to live for and would not be willing to blow themselves up, it fits the cause of the PLO for the palestinian people to suffer.

    we in N America have no clue what it's like to live occupied in you own country.
    You are right about that, and since palestine is not a country it can not be occupied, also is Texas being occupied by America since it was once a part of Mexico??

    We can not even imagine what it would be to live like the pallstinians live. how many palestinian children have died in this conflict and how many jewish children. do the math it's not even close.
    Yes because we see Israeli suicide bombers that specifically target innocent palestinians, they detonate themselves in public places where the most innnocent causulties can be formed


    Oh and why were the soldiers shootin machineguns at these ppl? because some kids were throing rocks at the soldiers becauses their houses were being bulldozed.
    The soldiers were shooting because they were being shot at by the parents of those kids. Kids are encouraged to throw rocks during these battles, why, because their dead bodies can be used as propaganda. Look at the Palestinian manipulation, it tells kids to put down their toys and pick up rocks. It serves their purpose more when these children die as you pointed out....

    THey were saying for every drop of a martyr's blood another boy will be born, to a brave mother to ensure the existance of pallestinians.

  37. #37
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinjob
    Bouncer i dont believe the command have *ever* afforded themselves the liberty of bombing by proxy, there is no record of any such act that i am aware of (and you would expect there to be at least one given the virulent hatred that the brits have for all things Irish Republican).
    One notable attack was when the IRA made a father drive his tracker into a Brit army/RUC checkpoint in Newry and killed 6 soldiers. I haven't done a google search for the info, but there's been other such attacks.

  38. #38
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harp
    why is it that if u have a stronger millitary u can go to ppls countries, cities, houses and do what ever u please with them.ie' torture,rape, sodomize,murder just to name a few.
    If those same ppl, who don't have a military because u bomb every police station and military they try to build, fight back with thir life they r terrorists. Has anyone heard about sharon when he was the Isreael's military strongman and he massacred thousands of children women and men. Why is he not brought to "justice" is that not terrorism? In my view Sharon is comparreble to hitler. Jews of all ppl should know the terrible cost of oppression and hate. they suffered greatly from the nazis and now they are doing the same thing to the palestinians. THE HUNTED HAVE BECOME THE HUNTERS.
    Its hard to read your posts, but I'll try decypher it.. first off are you talking about when Sharon was Minister for Defence when 800 refugee's were murdered in Chabra and Shatilla (Lebanon)?.

    Another question, have you actually lived in the Middle East?. I mean, ''In my opinion Sharon is comparreble to Hitler'', what qualifies you to give that opinion?.

    Can you tell me the events which led to the present intifada?.

    What can you tell me about Ehud Baraks policy towards peace with the Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians?.

    And why did the P.A. throw everything back in his face?.

    Whats your opinion of Syria's oppression of the Lebanese and in particular Palestinian refugee's in Lebanon?.

  39. #39
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Skinjob, some reading on the IRA' proxy-suicide bombings;

    THE PROXY SUICIDE BOMB.

    A brief description for those for you who don't know what that means. A person is kidnapped, beaten and there family are held hostage, they are tied and bound into a vehicle which contains a bomb and forced to drive it to a destination decided by the SinnFein/IRA terrorist. If they can escape well and good if not they die with anyone else that happens to be about. Here are a few examples of Sinn Fein/IRAs Human Bombs.

    They would love to be portrayed as brave heroes but these facts show the true lack of courage disregard for human life that they have.

    24/10/1990 -

    While his family was held hostage in their Londonderry home, Patrick Gillespie, RC, 42, married, 3 children was forced to drive a car loaded with a bomb into the Buncrana Road checkpoint in Coshquin. The explosion killed Patsy as well as 5 young soldiers from the Kings Regiment. Stephen Burrows 30, from Blackpool. He left behind a wife and a 3 year old son. Stephen Beachem, 20, from Warrington, Cheshire Vincent Scott, 21, from Walton, Liverpool David Sweeney, 19, from Widnes, Cheshire Paul Worrall, 23, from Runcorn, Cheshire As the bomb exploded, gunmen opened fire from the safe haven across the border. Four years earlier Patsy had narrowly escaped death when he was forced to drive another human bomb to a local Army base. RC Bishop of Derry, Dr Edward Daly accused the IRA of "crossing a new threshold of evil" 17 civilians were injured in the attack.

    24/10/90 -

    68 year old James McEvoy escaped injured after being forced to drive a bomb into a checkpoint at Killeen, outside Newry. Cyril Smith, 21, P, from the Royal Irish Rangers, died in the explosion, 13 of his colleagues were injured. He was from Carrickfergus. At the inquest into the atrocity James McEvoy said he was awakened in the middle of the night to see two figures standing over him wearing balaclavas. They blindfolded him before taking him some distance. He was ordered to drive a car towards the checkpoint and if he did not comply two of his sons would be murdered. He was to tell the soldiers there was a bomb and they had 40 minutes to get clear. In reality though, within seconds of Mr. McEvoy abandoning the car, the bomb was detonated. James McEvoy died 7 months later. A relative said he "never got over what happened that night in October".

    24/10/90 -

    Another Proxy attempt on the same day at Lisanelly Army base, Omagh, failed when the main bomb didn't explode. A man had been strapped to the car seat and forced to drive the bomb in, while his wife and 7 year old child were held hostage.

    22/11/90 -

    At around 9:30pm, a number of armed and masked men took over a house in Newtownbutler. A man was taken out while his elderly parents were tied up in a toilet. He was driven to the IRA's safe haven of the Irish Republic were they held him in a derelict house. From there he was taken away in a Toyota pickup truck accompanied by two armed men. He was made to drive the truck to Annaghmartin, Fermanagh checkpoint and told that the truck carried a bomb on a 5 minute timer. At the checkpoint he shouted a warning and there was a small explosion. The bomb itself failed to go off. On examination, the bomb contained 3,500lb of homemade explosives, the biggest IRA bomb to date. Had it exploded it would have caused enormous havoc, destruction and certain death.

    3/2/91 -

    IRA force a man to drive a 500lb human bomb into a UDR base in Magherafelt, Co. Londonderry by holding his wife hostage in another car. The driver shouted a warning and escaped before the bomb exploded. Part of the base and 50 surrounding houses were badly damaged. 3 members of the man's company had already been murdered by nationalists because the firm survived by buliding for the security forces.

    24/3/93 -

    On the day before John Hume and Gerry Adams issued their first joint statement, the IRA exploded a one ton bomb in Bishopsgate, London. The bomb caused damage estimated at upwards of a billion pounds. On the same day two taxi drivers were used as human bombs in nationalist attempts to blow up London, it failed when the drivers managed to abandon their taxi's and shout warnings.


    Horrendous, isn't it?.

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