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  1. #1
    saboudian's Avatar
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    What does it take for the Iraq War 2 to be a failure?

    I was just skimming through the thread about Libs, and there's so much in there that I simply don't have the time to reply to all of the responses. But as I read through it, I almost got the impression that it almost seems like some ppl will support this occupation mindlessly no matter what you tell them, so I just wanted to see if it was true despite the facts, and I want to know what it would take for you to not support this illegal occupation:

    1. No connection between Iraq and Al-qaeda

    2. No connection between Iraq and 9/11.

    3. Over 900 american dead. Unfortunately and sadly, there seems to be no reason to suspect that this number will slow down in the recent future. Even after more than a year, there is not control over Iraq, and fighting continues despite the fact that we are supposed to be helping them.

    4. Over 5000 americans injured. I wonder if soldiers who have lost a limb beleive it was worth the cause.

    5. Over 11000 Iraqis dead. Basic Infrastructure remains a large problem.

    6. Drained tremendous resources from afghanistan and hunt for Bin laden. It would be fair to say we didn't finish the job there. More and more soldiers are being retained involuntary past their tour of duty. The National Guard is being called and retained in Iraq, so much so that states have no way of dealing with a natural disaster or emergency if it were to occur.

    7. The evidence that the war was substantiated on has all turned out to be false or a concocted story(lie). In fact, when finally able to look at the sources of the evidence, all of the connections were very weak and not verified. These sources were not open to Congress when they voted to give the power to go to war to the president. Some of the evidence used was a complete lie, for example, the White House reported that Iraq was within 6 months of having nuclear weapons, a few reporters asked what specific IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) they were referring to, the White House quickly had to acknowledge that there was no new IAEA report on nuclear arms. That agency had to issue a new press release that stated there was no new IAEA report, and in order for us to make a statement about the Iraqi weapons program, we have to go back in and resume inspections. The last IAEA report concerning the Iraqi Nuclear program was in 1999, and stated that the Iraqi Nuclear Program had been totally removed, and that there was nothing left.

    8. No WMD. The UN inspections that were ongoing before the war, up to that point had not indicated any WMD. If in fact, the UN inspectors if given another month, and then indicated in any way that they felt Iraq was not cooperating, France would have changed their vote, and the US would have had the cooperation of the UN.

    9. Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists. Its arguable(and many do argue) that the US is now much unsafer because of the Iraqi Occupation. Anti-americanism continues to grow, groups such as the sunnis and shiites that have not gotten along have now united against the US. The driving force that would have to be there for 2 groups like those to fight together is incredible.

    10. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Jordan, North Korea, Algeria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan.......

    11. Iraq was not an imminent threat, translation: the war was not necessary.

    12. Tony Blair has public acknowledged "Full Responsibility". Why can't we get that from our president?

    13. The largest supplier of troops after the US and Britain are defense contractors, (aka mercs).


    I'll post more as I come across them, anyone feel free to add.

  2. #2
    biglouie250's Avatar
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    Attacking Israel would have been a better choice. They do have WMD's and they are the reason the other middle eastern countries want them. And Ariel Sharon has committed just as many crimes against humanities as Saddam has. Ya know the whole killing of hundreds of Lebonese families(men, woman and children)

  3. #3
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    The resonses are too many for me to rebut. Look past the length of your arm into the future a bit and try to see the bigger picture. Do you have any idea how important a stronghold in the middleast is for Americas safety and econony? You simple see it as people dying but can't see the reasons they are willing to die (our soldiers).

    Courage,pride,integrity,commitment to the American way of life and love for our great country. To protect others so they can bitch about the war at home sitting in on their asses. I would be willing to bet that most of "libs" bitching about this war wouldn't have the balls to go into any war whether they believed in the cause or not.

    If you are offened my last popint must apply to you.

  4. #4
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    dont worry if the draft comes back vic party lines wont help anyone... sucks man

  5. #5
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    wow........ there are so many falsehoods in these statments.......


    the easiest to challenge is Tony Blair...... Completely justified by parliment..

    last week.......


    You do know that we Impeached Bill Clinton, and that he had multiple affairs with women while he was president... I personnally don't care, except he lied to america...

    where as Bush didn't lie to us regarding WMD... he was stating the situation based on the information that he had been provided..



    To answer your question.... we are currently supporting the country until they can have an election themself..

    we are currently selling arms and training to them so they can defend themselves from the hords that surround them..

    For it to be a "Failure" would be for Sadam Hussein to be reinstated as president.. that would be a failure..........
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  6. #6
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Well Louie, I've got a fifteen year old son who will probably be drafted do you ?

  7. #7
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    This is not a flame to Spywizard because i like reading your stuff butClinton wasnt impeached. The process must be completed and Clinton had to have been removed for him to be impeached. Articles of impeachment were drafted but thats about it

  8. #8
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    Im not for the draft. Im technically still eligile for the draft, no sons tho. I do have ayounger sister and brother tho. If one of them were to be drafted there is no way id let them go.

  9. #9
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    I disagree with the draft but if it becomes the law so be it. My son will go and serve his country with pride and without fear. (We're those Christian types that buy into all the God, Jesus stuff)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    The resonses are too many for me to rebut. Look past the length of your arm into the future a bit and try to see the bigger picture. Do you have any idea how important a stronghold in the middleast is for Americas safety and econony? You simple see it as people dying but can't see the reasons they are willing to die (our soldiers).

    Courage,pride,integrity,commitment to the American way of life and love for our great country. To protect others so they can bitch about the war at home sitting in on their asses. I would be willing to bet that most of "libs" bitching about this war wouldn't have the balls to go into any war whether they believed in the cause or not.

    If you are offened my last popint must apply to you.

    oh, no i better not say anything because it will mean i have no balls! airtight argument again vic.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    Attacking Israel would have been a better choice. They do have WMD's and they are the reason the other middle eastern countries want them. And Ariel Sharon has committed just as many crimes against humanities as Saddam has. Ya know the whole killing of hundreds of Lebonese families(men, woman and children)


    This has got to be the sickest, crap I’ve read all day. Israel defends itself from surrounding enemies and you call it crimes against humanity. Subject to daily attacks from terrorists against its citizens, WTF.
    Your logic implies that any civilized democratic nation that fights for survival, security, and peace is committing war crimes, or is Israel different somehow. I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but comparing Israel to Iraq is just sick, and distorted.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    This has got to be the sickest, crap I’ve read all day. Israel defends itself from surrounding enemies and you call it crimes against humanity. Subject to daily attacks from terrorists against its citizens, WTF.
    Your logic implies that any civilized democratic nation that fights for survival, security, and peace is committing war crimes, or is Israel different somehow. I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but comparing Israel to Iraq is just sick, and distorted.

    It was meant it with a sarcastic tone, sorry if i offended you. What i wrote about sharon was true though his presence isnt helping any sort of peace process in that region

  13. #13
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    Sin, You will rarely agree with anything I say. My arguments aren't based on fact but opinion,you know what they say about opinions. (Yes this applies to your opinions too)

    I'm not sure if you have balls or not I haven't seen then nor do I want to! LOL

    Seriously we all think we have the right stuff when the **** hits the fan, maybe I'm full of crap and don't know it. However I've been in many situations in my past with guns/knives, being outnumbered and getting jumped protecting my friends or innocent people. I used to live life looking for trouble and I found a lot of it. I hope to think that I know what I'm made of.

  14. #14
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    i think most men would have the sac to fight and die for their beliefs. if this were ww2 i would be there without a second thought. going after bin laden or taking real steps to go after terrorists, i would do whatever i could. the iraq war; no way. its not justified in my mind. as for letting anyone in my family get drafted over this war, no way it will ever happen.

  15. #15
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    The enemy was out in the open in WWII. Since we can't see the terrorist the threat doesn't seem as real. If we coulds see the whole picture for one moment you might change your mind.

  16. #16
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    i agree completey with what sin says. There is no righteousness to this war we are not freeing the world from a global threat.

  17. #17
    singern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    It was meant it with a sarcastic tone, sorry if i offended you. What i wrote about sharon was true though his presence isnt helping any sort of peace process in that region
    No worries mate

  18. #18
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    terrorists do not equal iraqi's. Dont link the Iraq war to terrorism as there is still no prrof yet, nor was there any credible evidence to suggest so

  19. #19
    sin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    The enemy was out in the open in WWII. Since we can't see the terrorist the threat doesn't seem as real. If we coulds see the whole picture for one moment you might change your mind.
    maybe, but i think we are moving in the wrong direction. it seems to me if you want to find people witout a country that arent centralized, you need to fight as they do. tight small forces would be way more functional then spending hundreds of millions of dollars dropping bombs on an enemy that isnt there. im not going to argue that saddam should have been removed from power, but i think we have bigger problems at the moment.

  20. #20
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    Agreed but we need a stronghold in the middleast.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Agreed but we need a stronghold in the middleast.
    but to what end? if we dont know where our enemy is, how is having a stonghold going to change anything?

  22. #22
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    Getting in there and establishing a presence will help them feel safe this will encourage more and more human intelligence, and that's how we will get to them

  23. #23
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    As far as Iraq and Al-queda according to the 9/11 report there were not tatical ties as in giving them weapons but there were ties between Iraq intel agency and al-queda. I have a question though Isnt this the war on TERRORISM? Does it matter what the terror group name is ? Look at Alzarqawi according to the 9/11 report he was in Iraq before the war started? Look at all the Al-queda in Iraq right now? We are killing them daily. Saddam gave money to the PLO sucide bombers 25k american to the families as an incentive to blow themselves up. Everyones opnion espiecally the creator of this thread are so biased on Idealogy Including Mine. I have very personal reasons why I support this war. I have boots on the ground knowledge of whats taking place over in Iraq and alot of people support us some dont but the vast majority yes. As to the first paragraph of the thread i dont support anyone blindly. I was an open thinker when i had my SAW strapped to me it has saved my life many times to be a free thinker in some not so very nice situations. But hey everyone has an opnion just offereing mine that is what I was fighting for so keep up the debate .

  24. #24
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    the quedas came into iraq after us....to help their brothers in arm, wouldnt we do the same if canada were attacked?

  25. #25
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    Small tight forces=Good Answer

    Quote Originally Posted by sin
    maybe, but i think we are moving in the wrong direction. it seems to me if you want to find people witout a country that arent centralized, you need to fight as they do. tight small forces would be way more functional then spending hundreds of millions of dollars dropping bombs on an enemy that isnt there. im not going to argue that saddam should have been removed from power, but i think we have bigger problems at the moment.

    Holy hell something to agree upon. The only problem here is not enough to go around we are overextended as far as our Spec Ops Operators are concerned. That is why we are outsourcing to contractors, Ex Special Operations guys which get the job done. That is whats taking place right now it always has been they just dont get the attention as a 5000lb smart bomb going through a window in bagdad.

  26. #26
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    Big louie whats your point? Im sure we would. My point is we are killing them. The same motherphuckers that took down the WTC.

  27. #27
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    I too was once or twice tripped up by this (I had to look it up), I place all of the blame squarely on the journalist population. Technically, you are using the word incorrectly, as was often done during the whole Clinton hullabaloo. From dictionary.com:

    im·peachment n.
    Usage Note: When an irate citizen demands that a disfavored public official be impeached, the citizen clearly intends for the official to be removed from office. This popular use of impeach as a synonym of “throw out” (even if by due process) does not accord with the legal meaning of the word. As recent history has shown, when a public official is impeached, that is, formally accused of wrongdoing, this is only the start of what can be a lengthy process that may or may not lead to the official's removal from office. In strict usage, an official is impeached (accused), tried, and then convicted or acquitted. The vaguer use of impeach reflects disgruntled citizens' indifference to whether the official is forced from office by legal means or chooses to resign to avoid further disgrace.
    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    This is not a flame to Spywizard because i like reading your stuff butClinton wasnt impeached. The process must be completed and Clinton had to have been removed for him to be impeached. Articles of impeachment were drafted but thats about it

  28. #28
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    i think my point was if we werent in Iraq then they wouldnt be either. I also think you may be misinformed about the attacks on our troops. All the media states is that "Iraqi insurgents" attacking US forces, nothing about the quedas. As far as the WTC dont ever bring that up as an excuse to fight a war in totally different country with piss poor intelligence. Ive been to more funerals in the aftermath of 9/11 than you will ever know, I was a pallbearer to many fallen brothers (RIP) and i dont want to see our soldiers suffer a fimilar fate. You simply can not win a Vietnam style war. Its always the people who havent seen war that want it remember that.

  29. #29
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    This war is absolutely no comparison to Vietnam. Please use something else that on eis tired.

  30. #30
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    war that had turned into a guerella style battle field where you arent sure who is the enemy and who is an avg citizen. Where some of the people in the country would rather die than have another country occupy them. Now you tell me if that describes vietnam with us, Afghanistan with the russians or Iraq 2 with us or all 3.........

  31. #31
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    Guerilla war fare has been around in all the wars. This one is no different. It's a desert not a tropical forest. The only reason this isn't over is because we lack the balls to go in and slaughter a ton of people to get their attention. That's all they understand.

    We have brought a knife to a gun fight. We need to get to their level and start killing terrorists family members etc... anyone with a link will disappear forever. Then we would see results.

  32. #32
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    we cant do that see geneva conventions

  33. #33
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    Big Louie your comments to me like i dont have a clue about seeing friends die kinda pis$ed me off but im taking the high road. But i will say this dont you EVER preach to me about fallen comrades EVER and your comment about people who want war have not been in war also really pis$es me off but once again i will take the high road since you do not know me or my past. On the rest of your reply the vast majority of people we are fighting are foreign to Iraq. Now there are excepts to every rule but the majority are not native iraqis.

  34. #34
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    well then explain your history before you are all gung ho about war.... as far as your other comment act civil..... i dont have fallen comrades im not a communist i have fallen brothers in the FDNY. I think your intel is a little off when it comes to who we are fighting in Iraq and if your right then we are doing a piss poor job of securing the towns, villages and cities from outsiders

  35. #35
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    The Geneva convention isn't applied by the enemy so it shouldn't apply to us in this circumstance. That's like showing up in running shoes to run a marathon and a guy who has entered pulls up in a car and is allowed to "run" the marathon in the car and wins. If victory is your goal you will show up in a faster car and screw the shoes in the next race.

    You have to play by the rules of your opponent, this Marquis De Queenbury rules stance we take pisses me off. If they fight dirty we fight dirty there is no other option. If not we will get our ass kicked.

  36. #36
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    Naval special Warfare Unit -based in the kingdom of bahrain. We are not doing a piss poor job of anything war is hard it isnt a day in candyland. It just takes one terrorist to create unstablilty it takes 1000 GI to insure stability. So before you start throwing out blanket statments about how no one else has seen death think again or start doing more Taxes.

  37. #37
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    no need to rag on my occupation what is your very important task in life?

  38. #38
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    Discharged for severe stress fractures in my legs and arms.

  39. #39
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    and you still didnt answer my q about your history? not a flame just curious to where your coming from pal

  40. #40
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    The most important task i have right now is getting rehab and losing the +50 lbs i gained when i could hardly walk and re-enlisting im still young.

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