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  1. #1
    OGPackin's Avatar
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    The truth is revealed....Kerry's service record...

    This was emailed to me this morning....Now, if this was Bush it would be all over the news....

    http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm

    OG

  2. #2
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    Kerry went over there with an agenda, to get out asap. I believe evrything posted that is negative. Come on 4 months, 3 purple hearts, a silver star, his family connections had everything to do with that.

  3. #3
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    that is totally incorrect period.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    This was emailed to me this morning....Now, if this was Bush it would be all over the news....

    http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm

    OG
    Why would this be all over the news? I see lots of questions that are supposed to be inferring something, but I see no facts.

    For the record, I'm not a liberal, a democrat, or a Kerry suporter. I'm a free thinker.

  5. #5
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    Kerry vonlunteered yes volunteered for service. He spent 3 yrs in the navy, he doesnt have control where he gets stationed. Most naval operations in nam were merely in support of ground forces. as for family connections thats a piss poor excuse, Bush family connections kept him out of war altogether...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    that is totally incorrect period.

    Yep


    If you wanna talk about family connections... George Bush is another story

  7. #7
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    Im not saying its true. All i said was someone emailed it to me this morning. And IMO how bias the media can be. Watch it, and take from it what u want...

    OG

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastCoaster
    Yep


    If you wanna talk about family connections... George Bush is another story
    true very true!! daddy bush got his son into college, out of vietnam, into the gov. seat and finally (unfortanetly) in the white house.. at least kerry did go to vietnam instead of partying in the u.s. doing coke and other ****. face it bush is a moron. unfit for presidency. i just dont see how people want someone who can run his baseball team in the ground and his oil companies too and lead the u.s.?? blows my mind.. this is coming from a fellow republican too.

  9. #9
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    i am not voting for kerry but i do have respect for any man that went to vietnam, let alone volunteered. i think all presidents should have some kind of military training IMO.

  10. #10
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    Kerry did not volunteer,at least not like you think, this has been on the news as early as three years ago on 60 minutes. What kind of jackass carries an 8mm camera with him in Vietnam? Glory seeker. No one ever even saw that vietcong that supposedly shot at his swift boat that he chased into the woods to "earn the silver star".

    Eastcoaster you need to shut you cocksucker, you blather on but still have not proven one statement regarding our steel debate.

  11. #11
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    ok, what about kerry voting to squash looking for the live vietnam pow's. it's true! and as soon as he did it his cousin mr. forbes received a multi billion dollar contract with HANOI CONSTRUCTION! im not a big busg suporter but i can not beleive anyone would vote for kerry! this guy is nothing but a lie. he lies about everything. tell me one thing that he hasnt lied about?????? he voted to go to war with iraq but now makes it out like he was never for the war!!!!!!!!!!!! wtf ever. you guys vote this man into office and watch how secure our country is then!

    one more thing....if you were osama bin laden, who would you vote for? the one who wants your head on a platter or the one who wants the UN to make all of the USA's security decisions???
    Last edited by DF2003; 08-05-2004 at 09:39 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Eastcoaster you need to shut you cocksucker,
    Is this necessary?

  13. #13
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    wow i just went to the page that stuff is crazy

  14. #14
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    Yes it is. This guy is a blowhard that can't back up a thing that he says. He's some punk college kid wearing a pin striped suit and "hanging" with the gov that thinks he has learned everything he knows by osmossis.

    He starts debates and then can't back up a thing he says. No offense to the younger more sensible bros but I'm sick of pimply faced college punks chiming in about life and politics and anything with substance for that matter. Most of their lives revolve around partys and chasing pu$$y. Until they left home a few years ago they were still in mommy and daddys little bubble. For thaqt matter they still are.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Yes it is. This guy is a blowhard that can't back up a thing that he says. He's some punk college kid wearing a pin striped suit and "hanging" with the gov that thinks he has learned everything he knows by osmossis.

    He starts debates and then can't back up a thing he says. No offense to the younger more sensible bros but I'm sick of pimply faced college punks chiming in about life and politics and anything with substance for that matter. Most of their lives revolve around partys and chasing pu$$y. Until they left home a few years ago they were still in mommy and daddys little bubble. For thaqt matter they still are.

    you are talking about bush right???

  16. #16
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Bush is past college age, lame...very lame.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Bush is past college age, lame...very lame.

    yea so whats his excuse then?

  18. #18
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    This post is about Kerrys war record, stay on topic.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    This post is about Kerrys war record, stay on topic.
    which he released with no problem, which is what forced bush to release his "war" record. Personally i dont care if you served or not, that shouldnt be an issue when running for president. Give me an intellectual, not a war monger any day. Neither Kerry or Bush is an intellectual, but Bush is war monger so ill take Kerry

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    What kind of jackass carries an 8mm camera with him in Vietnam? Glory seeker. .
    Well, there's a few troops in Iraq carrying videocameras around nowadays, thanks to the economics (they're cheap). Kerry could afford an 8mm camera (I had one years ago, they aren't that bulky), and it wouldn't be any big deal to have one in a warzone.




    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Eastcoaster you need to shut you cocksucker, you blather on but still have not proven one statement regarding our steel debate.
    Oooohh . . . strong language . . . abusive, too. Telling someone else what they need to do . . . Tsk tsk tsk . . .

    --Tock

  21. #21
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Tock,

    Eastcoaster is an intern to a Democratic Gov of WV I believe. He has been on a couple of threads spouting off and not backing up anything. He challenged me on the steel industry for which I have worked in for arounf fifteen years. I called him on it and all of the sudden he needs to talk to the gov. to get his opinion. For that matter why is someone with political ambitions on AR anyway.

  22. #22
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    i have no idea about what kerry did or did not do in vietnam. But i do know he went. while bush and clinton were scrambling to keep away. I dislike both candidates. It makes me sad when there isnt even a candidate i feel is worth voting for. I so much hate to vote against somebody, thats just as good as wasting a vote imo. I hope that the united states finds a good leader soon. the only good thing about bush possibly winning the election is that he would never be able to be president again. god forbid.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Kerry went over there with an agenda, to get out asap. I believe evrything posted that is negative.
    Oh come on you CANNOT be serious. Dare i say that 99% of ALL SOLDIERS who went to nam had an agenda of getting out quick

  24. #24
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    Thank you, you've shown everybody on here exactly why I dont need to talk to you about anything. Go ahead and run a seach on my political post, I always explain and provide example and source in my claims. There is no point in trying to have a respectable debate with you, you dont accept or listen to anybody who doesnt think exactly as you do. You dont have to agree with anything I say, but a good hard thinker is always trying to improve their ideas and wisdom by expanding their knowledge and understanding from other view points.

    You believe you're right, and only you, I refuse to carry on a conversation with you and you've proved to everybody here why.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Eastcoaster you need to shut you cocksucker, you blather on but still have not proven one statement regarding our steel debate.



    And I agree with some of the posts above, no matter who it is, I respect anybody who joins the military, let alone joins during a war. He could have been killed and he knew that before he joined.... as do all soldiers. It is because of people like these that we are able to live in a free country.
    Last edited by EastCoaster; 08-05-2004 at 11:14 AM.

  25. #25
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Ta! Ta! Enjoy your unfounded eliteism.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Ta! Ta! Enjoy your unfounded eliteism.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    This post is about Kerrys war record, stay on topic.
    Please take your own advice, dont bash me because I think differently than you. You pretty mature with your intelligent language in choice of name calling, a real cool guy.

  27. #27
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    Already got the spin down......I see a future for you in the Democratic party!

  28. #28
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    I don't like Kerry, but that video was a little over the top

  29. #29
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    as much as I enjoy reading the flaming that is going on here, I do think that everyone, myself included, should show some form of civility.

  30. #30
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    Communist support the kerry campaign

    Communist Vietnamese honor John Kerry, the war protestor, as a hero in their victory over the United States in the Vietnam War -- Part II.

    On Memorial Day, May 31, 2004, Vietnam Vets for the Truth broke an extraordinary story about a photograph hanging in the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum (formerly known as the "War Crimes Museum") in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). The photograph, displayed in a room dedicated to foreign activists who contributed to the Communist victory over America in the Vietnam War, shows Senator John Kerry being greeted by Comrade Do Muoi, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam. Jeffrey M. Epstein of Vietnam Vets for the Truth acquired the photograph during the Memorial Day weekend in response to a general request for photographs and records detailing Kerry's activities on behalf of the enemy. Vietnam Vets for the Truth has now further documented the photograph. Photographer Bill Lupetti returned to the War Remnants Museum in Saigon on June 2 at the request of Dr. Jerome Corsi, co-author of the original article, and photographed a current edition of the "Viet Nam News" next to the display honoring John Kerry.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    Communist support the kerry campaign.


    I suppose somewhere there are sex offenders, drunk drivers, murderers, wife-beaters, and even (dare I say it?) sabbath-breakers who support both Bush and Kerry. What foreign communists do is their business.

    Truth is, most foreigners dislike Bush because of his "My way or f--- you!" way of doing business, which is why the US (we American taxpayers) has to pay the bulk of the Iraq war costs. Kerry is supported by both Americans and foreigners because he favors international cooperation.

    --Tock

    BTW, you'll have a tough time finding good justification for US involvement in the Vietnam war, communism or no communism. It was a mistake from the get-go, and most politicians involved in the conflict will agree. Geez, even Robert McNamara, the guy who ran the war under Lyndon Johnson, said so.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Tock,

    Eastcoaster is an intern to a Democratic Gov of WV I believe. He has been on a couple of threads spouting off and not backing up anything. He challenged me on the steel industry for which I have worked in for arounf fifteen years. I called him on it and all of the sudden he needs to talk to the gov. to get his opinion. For that matter why is someone with political ambitions on AR anyway.


    That's fine, but still, if you're going to disagree, there's no need to be disagreeable.
    Besides, you used the word "Cocksucker" like there was something wrong with guys sucking cocks.
    -Tock
    Last edited by Tock; 08-05-2004 at 01:36 PM.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    That's fine, but still, if you're going to disagree, there's no need to be disagreeable.
    Besides, you used the word "Cocksucker" like there was something wrong with guys sucking cocks.
    -Tock

    He maybe disagreeable, but your reply is so offensive I dont know where to begin, so I wont.
    With all due respect to your choice of lifestyle, Please do not paint such a discusting picture in the future.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    That's fine, but still, if you're going to disagree, there's no need to be disagreeable.
    Besides, you used the word "Cocksucker" like there was something wrong with guys sucking cocks.
    -Tock
    dammit tock thats fvucked up but i nearly fell out of my chair laughing anyways.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Now With All Due Respect


    What is with all this communist s*it? Is McCarthy up for president or something? who the hell cares who the communists support. If you trace some of the entities America has supported in the past (like overthrowing democratically elected presidents of other countries, training and giving money to al quaida...) you'd be just as appauled. In a nutshell, communism has no argument here, this is america, cold war is over.

    Why is getting out of Vietnam early a bad thing? Tock is right you will not find people who think (at least today) that the Vietnam war was necessary. Therefore, pulling out was not a bad thing to do. You say it like we should have been there longer

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    Communist support the kerry campaign

    Communist Vietnamese honor John Kerry, the war protestor, as a hero in their victory over the United States in the Vietnam War -- Part II.

    On Memorial Day, May 31, 2004, Vietnam Vets for the Truth broke an extraordinary story about a photograph hanging in the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum (formerly known as the "War Crimes Museum") in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). The photograph, displayed in a room dedicated to foreign activists who contributed to the Communist victory over America in the Vietnam War, shows Senator John Kerry being greeted by Comrade Do Muoi, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam. Jeffrey M. Epstein of Vietnam Vets for the Truth acquired the photograph during the Memorial Day weekend in response to a general request for photographs and records detailing Kerry's activities on behalf of the enemy. Vietnam Vets for the Truth has now further documented the photograph. Photographer Bill Lupetti returned to the War Remnants Museum in Saigon on June 2 at the request of Dr. Jerome Corsi, co-author of the original article, and photographed a current edition of the "Viet Nam News" next to the display honoring John Kerry.
    lol he was trying to make peace. you guys talk **** about kerry but not realizing that bush pussed out of vietnam HE WAS SCARED!! daddy got him out of it! he served for the alabama air guard whatever the **** that is? and they still cant find proof that he even did that... kerry this kerry that? what about bush?? he is a PUSSY! daddy's little helper! i will say this again, do you want a president that ran a **** baseball team in the ground?? a basball team guys! and not to mention some oil companies too! why? because he was too busy drinking and getting smashed! he even admitted it! do research guys! he might be fit for gov. but def not president. oh yeah here are some quotes taken from bush's speaches...ENJOY!!!
    "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." —LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

    "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." —Greater Nashua, NH, Jan. 27, 2000

    "I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here." —Waco, Texas, Aug. 13, 2002

    "I am here to make an announcement that this Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will fly out of Ronald Reagan Airport." —Washington, D.C., Oct. 3, 2001

    "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test." —George W. Bush, Townsend, Tenn., Feb. 21, 2001

    "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe — I believe what I believe is right." —Rome, July 22, 2001

    "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." —Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

    "They misunderestimated me." —Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

    "Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" —Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

    "He married a Texas girl, I want you to know. Karyn is with us. A West Texas girl, just like me." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., May 27, 2004

    I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 25, 2004

    So thank you for reminding me about the importance of being a good mom and a great volunteer as well." —George W. Bush, St. Louis, MO., Jan. 5, 2004

    "See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." —George W. Bush, Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003

    "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." —George W. Bush, May 14

    "[W]e've had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them, and I want to know who the leakers are." —George W. Bush, Chicago, Sept. 30, 2003

    "This administration is doing everything we can to end the stalemate in an efficient way. We're making the right decisions to bring the solution to an end." —George W. Bush, April 10, 2001

    "First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 19, 2003

    "We ended the rule of one of history's worst tyrants, and in so doing, we not only freed the American people, we made our own people more secure." —George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, May 3, 2003

    The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." —George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  36. #36
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    That's fine, but still, if you're going to disagree, there's no need to be disagreeable.
    Besides, you used the word "Cocksucker" like there was something wrong with guys sucking cocks.
    -Tock
    BWWHAHAHHAAAHHAHA!

  37. #37
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    How should I reply to that one?

  38. #38
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    I was on the site just for a short bit, and watched the slides about his houses....WHICH ARE HIS WIFES! This all drives me personally up GD wall!
    Both Bush and Kerry are elitests'! They lead a life that only a couple of us, definately not me, will ever have a chance to live. Both are HEAVILY influenced by outer influences! 1 went to war, the other went who knows where.... both guys are what they are! You can pick on kerry for his stance on the war and how he didn't believe in it and the stuff that happened. You can pick on Bush for his flaking on life!
    You can go on and on but both guys are rich who lobby the way the are told to by contributers to their campaigns and wallets. That's politics and it sucks and it's bringing this country down. Now take the Repulican out and the Democrate out.....who's going screw us the least!? Already Bush has proven that enjoys his ranch more than the white house. He's already proven that he is driven by his religious beliefs and they are influencing OUR rights as americans. He LIED! HE F*KN' LIED TO EVERYONE OF US TAX PAYING AMERICANS! HE SENT OUR GUYS OVER THERE (AND I AM A VET) TO FIGHT FOR WHAT? Sure Sadam is a nut! and he's better off out of office...but at what extent???? THE MORON HAD A GREAT IDEA...LET'S GET SADAM OUT, OK WE DID THAT GOOD JOB...NOW WHAT????????????? DUH! THE MORON HAD NO EXIT PLAN! HE HAS RUIN FOREIGN POLICY AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR ALIES.
    HE'S GIVEN TAX BREAKS TO COMPANIES THAT TAKE THERE JOBS OUT OF AMERICA! I don't know what you guys do, but I can tell you this and don't fool yourself it will happen, if your company sees that they can hire 4 guys to do your job at half the price and provide even half of your quality work they will hire the 4 guys. Those 4 guys will be Indian, Chinese, Russian...etc. I see it every day! I see a company that has hired 40 Indians to every 1 american...why?????? Cheaper to hire these guys make them work 80 hours a week than it is to keep 1 american who doesn't have a gun to his head to have to do that. I unfortunately have no where to go so I need to work these F*K'd up hours myself! I ran off on a tangent but here's the problem, Bush is a moron, and a loose canon. I don't know how good the other bozo is, but atleast he's not Bush! F*K Bush! He's turning this country into someplace that although is the greatest place to live, but the hardest to take!
    Do you want to be told what you can say??? do you want to live in a place where a company benefits from not hiring Americans? do you want to live under the shadow of a guy who is so clueless and moronic, that he doesn't know to take the advice of one of the brightest and most inteligent men today? Colon Powell???? You're going to war wouldn't you take the advice of someone who might have a clue on things????
    We as Americans need to look at the big picture and protect what our fore fathers fought for. And see that this boob, has done nothing to improve our nation! Basically, in my opinion Bush has done nothing but F*K me raw! And you too! Unless you're in the 1% that got the tax break, or the company that gets the tax breaks, or the Indian who's benefiting from OUR PRESIDENTS plan to improve our nation by taking jobs to other countries.
    I respect everyone's opinion and we all have them, but for me...Bush is a load that should have been swallowed! A guy who's trying to make Daddy pround, but sending our guys to some place where we shouldn't be! Granted Saddam is an A$$hole, but you know what....he didn't crash those planes! And he wasn't going to move on us, it was bush who believed that it could only be him! And you watch, come October Osama just will suddenly appear in hand cuffs! That dirty F*Ker...I mean bush! The other guy will get his, but bush will play on our heart strings by bringing him out of that hole in Afghanastan. GD! F**K! S**T! I'm pissed off big time!

    SID

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripsid
    I was on the site just for a short bit, and watched the slides about his houses....WHICH ARE HIS WIFES! This all drives me personally up GD wall!
    Both Bush and Kerry are elitests'! They lead a life that only a couple of us, definately not me, will ever have a chance to live. Both are HEAVILY influenced by outer influences! 1 went to war, the other went who knows where.... both guys are what they are! You can pick on kerry for his stance on the war and how he didn't believe in it and the stuff that happened. You can pick on Bush for his flaking on life!
    You can go on and on but both guys are rich who lobby the way the are told to by contributers to their campaigns and wallets. That's politics and it sucks and it's bringing this country down. Now take the Repulican out and the Democrate out.....who's going screw us the least!? Already Bush has proven that enjoys his ranch more than the white house. He's already proven that he is driven by his religious beliefs and they are influencing OUR rights as americans. He LIED! HE F*KN' LIED TO EVERYONE OF US TAX PAYING AMERICANS! HE SENT OUR GUYS OVER THERE (AND I AM A VET) TO FIGHT FOR WHAT? Sure Sadam is a nut! and he's better off out of office...but at what extent???? THE MORON HAD A GREAT IDEA...LET'S GET SADAM OUT, OK WE DID THAT GOOD JOB...NOW WHAT????????????? DUH! THE MORON HAD NO EXIT PLAN! HE HAS RUIN FOREIGN POLICY AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR ALIES.
    HE'S GIVEN TAX BREAKS TO COMPANIES THAT TAKE THERE JOBS OUT OF AMERICA! I don't know what you guys do, but I can tell you this and don't fool yourself it will happen, if your company sees that they can hire 4 guys to do your job at half the price and provide even half of your quality work they will hire the 4 guys. Those 4 guys will be Indian, Chinese, Russian...etc. I see it every day! I see a company that has hired 40 Indians to every 1 american...why?????? Cheaper to hire these guys make them work 80 hours a week than it is to keep 1 american who doesn't have a gun to his head to have to do that. I unfortunately have no where to go so I need to work these F*K'd up hours myself! I ran off on a tangent but here's the problem, Bush is a moron, and a loose canon. I don't know how good the other bozo is, but atleast he's not Bush! F*K Bush! He's turning this country into someplace that although is the greatest place to live, but the hardest to take!
    Do you want to be told what you can say??? do you want to live in a place where a company benefits from not hiring Americans? do you want to live under the shadow of a guy who is so clueless and moronic, that he doesn't know to take the advice of one of the brightest and most inteligent men today? Colon Powell???? You're going to war wouldn't you take the advice of someone who might have a clue on things????
    We as Americans need to look at the big picture and protect what our fore fathers fought for. And see that this boob, has done nothing to improve our nation! Basically, in my opinion Bush has done nothing but F*K me raw! And you too! Unless you're in the 1% that got the tax break, or the company that gets the tax breaks, or the Indian who's benefiting from OUR PRESIDENTS plan to improve our nation by taking jobs to other countries.
    I respect everyone's opinion and we all have them, but for me...Bush is a load that should have been swallowed! A guy who's trying to make Daddy pround, but sending our guys to some place where we shouldn't be! Granted Saddam is an A$$hole, but you know what....he didn't crash those planes! And he wasn't going to move on us, it was bush who believed that it could only be him! And you watch, come October Osama just will suddenly appear in hand cuffs! That dirty F*Ker...I mean bush! The other guy will get his, but bush will play on our heart strings by bringing him out of that hole in Afghanastan. GD! F**K! S**T! I'm pissed off big time!

    SID
    good post man! bravo!! everyone knows that oil has a lot to do with it man. it would be obsurd to say no it wasnt. i mean if oil wasnt the case and we went in b/c sadam is a bad man then why havent we gone into cuba, russia and other coutries that has or had tyrants as leaders.. the only thing bush has to ride on is 9/11 but that is getting old that horse is about to kick it guys.. if you bush-ites would bother to stop and look at his track record you would understand that we need someone else in the big chair. i mean ANYONE!! something has to change guys.

  40. #40
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    Thanks and I believe that we need to take the Rep and the Dem out of it! MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR POLITICAL BELIEFS IS OUR COUNTRY! Because without this country we don't have ****! The big picture is what we as Americans need to look at and not some guy because he's a Republican...wtf is that! If Bush was a Dem and Kerry was Rep what would this thread look like! I'm a firm believer in a NO-2party system. It is holding this country back from being run properly...Really no wonder everything's a f*kn battle , the house is reps, the congress is dems what ever it's not what you can do for your party it's how we can improve this country! And too many people have forgotten that!

    SID

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