Thread: John Calvin: Heretic or No?
08-18-2004, 12:17 AM #1
John Calvin: Heretic or No?
OK..... so any Calvinist in here? Anyone want to try and make a case for Calvin?
08-18-2004, 12:28 AM #2
Does anyne know who John Calvin was, or do you even care?
Is there anyone in here that is Presbyterian?
08-18-2004, 12:30 AM #3
Calvinism.......predestination of the elect
08-18-2004, 12:40 AM #4
sounds like Bush......with God telling him to go to war........
Bush would make a great Calvinist.......we were predestined to blow away Iraq.
08-18-2004, 01:37 AM #5
uh huh....moving back to something relevant to this thread......
I dont want to offend anyone, and this is kind of complicated so I am going to try and keep this as simple as possible
John Calvin believed in predestination, he also was a firm believer in the principal that God had already planned everything for our lives. The theological principle of predestination can set up a dual nature of God. On the one hand you have God who is love and gives us all a chance to know his grace, on the other you have predestination, the idea that God would **** some without ever giving them a chance for redemption, these two ideas can not exist simultaneously. Thus I will conceede that I think Calvin was a heretic, Predestination means that God would **** some without giving them a chance. Im going to save free will for another time, its late and I want to see if anyone will respond to this.
the **** is actually the word d-a-m-n...... im not using it as an explicative..... I wonder why its filtering it out...... that sucks
Last edited by kdawg21; 08-18-2004 at 01:40 AM.
08-18-2004, 02:06 AM #6
In fact I bet Bush is a Calvinist.......all smug in his predestined eternal salvation
08-18-2004, 02:08 AM #7
The right hand and the left hand of God.....dual nature
08-18-2004, 12:07 PM #8
can you stop with the excessive bush bashing for a few threads and discuss something like an adult..... or am I asking too much of you?
08-18-2004, 12:10 PM #9
Badgerman= mentally ill.
08-18-2004, 12:47 PM #10
People that believe in the theory of predestination can proof it over and over in the bible. It mentions it over and over. So if you where to have a debate with someone that believed that way and knew their Bible, they would tear me or you up. Its pretty easy to do it with scripture. The problem I have with the concept is then it means some people are predestined to be saved and some not. That doesnt reflect the true nature of God. And their is scripture where is speaks of us having choices. But the predestination scripture dominates scriptures that speaks of having choice.
What I see most of the time is someone will take someone elses belief and stay on one extreme side of a topic. My belief of predestination is this. There is both, some people are predestined to be something. And some have a choice. To me its really the only thing that makes sence. Like Hitler was no accident.
08-18-2004, 12:48 PM #11
Learned about him in college the most boring class of my life
08-18-2004, 12:55 PM #12
John Calvin took books out of the bible for his own reasons. He used the exuse that the original text were never found, and therefore they should not be in the bible. But whats funny is that they were later found in the dead sea. They don't want to take the books and put them back in, b/c it would contradict their beliefs. How can someone believe in something they can't explain when their beliefs are based on someones opinion and not proof.
08-18-2004, 01:03 PM #13
Big, that last sentence a feast for nonbelievers. Watch how they will come out of the woodwork to attack.
08-18-2004, 01:17 PM #14
How can you argue that fact though? If they try, its just means they know nothing about how their religion was started, and how or why those books were taken out. He used other reasons but the reason he used to the church(catholic) was that one I mentioned. He claimed that one fact was the soul reason they were removed.
08-18-2004, 01:27 PM #15Originally Posted by 1victor
And I thank you for your support.
You just can't face the Philosophical suicide you commit with your beliefs.
If today's armies commited the atrocities described in the bible you would be crying foul.
08-18-2004, 01:28 PM #16
Bump for a debate!
08-18-2004, 01:30 PM #17
Origen.......who was a universalist.......was branded a heretic by the catholics. He was probably more correct than Calvin.
08-18-2004, 01:35 PM #18
heretic is a relative term for someone who holds controversial or different views than the roman catholic church. So yes according to roman catholic doctrine he is a heretic however so was Galileo, Copernicus and many other very historically important people. Im not sure being a heretic is a bad thing.
08-18-2004, 01:41 PM #19Originally Posted by Badgerman
08-18-2004, 01:44 PM #20
I agree that heretic is good........Origen was a universalist.......and anyone who reads the bible at all HAS to believe in predestination.
08-18-2004, 01:45 PM #21
But I believe God is all powerful and if He is all powerful then He can certainly save all of man if that is His desire.......agree??
08-18-2004, 01:55 PM #22
Have you read the bible and came across the words "free will"? If a man decides to be evil than he will certainly suffer death(the sciptual meaning..hell). God made us and gave us free will. The bible teaches us that we make our own paths for after our life. This is something you can't NOT see when reading the bible. God can do what he wishes and he has wished that we will find our own way. He will not take a evil man and just grant him eternal life. He could! But he won't, if you believe other wize than you do not believe in the bible. If you believe God will save you no matter what, than you do not believe that God said all men have free will. If we have free will than there is no certanty that we are saved. We are saved when God says we are, after we have died. The bible speaks of no man judgeing any other. This means to judge someone is not only wrong, but a sin. If you are saying joe blow is saved before he dies, than you are judging him. It is a good judgement, but it is still not what the bible teaches.
08-18-2004, 02:03 PM #23Originally Posted by BigGenes
gods greatest gift towards man (free will) and dont ever forget it.....esp when the issue of stem cell research comes up. If god didnt want us to do it (according to the bible) he wourldnt have let us. And BTW the excuse that "we are playing god" is so tired and w/o merit... only go can play god!! Why are we living in houses isnt that playing god? I mean we killed trees, made concrete.......
08-18-2004, 02:09 PM #24
I don't see anything wrong with stem cell research.......what's the big problem?
08-18-2004, 02:13 PM #25Originally Posted by Badgerman
Bush wants to limit or destroy it altogether.......
08-18-2004, 02:21 PM #26
Until his daddy gets a disease that could be treated with it.......then he would change his tune
08-18-2004, 02:24 PM #27
Bagerman, What are your thoughts of my post? I enjoy talking about religion. I am not wanting to fight with anyone, just discuss.
08-18-2004, 02:27 PM #28Originally Posted by biglouie250
08-18-2004, 02:28 PM #29
I think what the genuine concern is human cloning, which would be an abomination IMO.
08-18-2004, 02:33 PM #30Originally Posted by BigGenes
As stated from www.cord-blood.com
Quite simply, cord blood is the remaining blood from your baby's umbilical cord and placenta after birth. Cord blood is loaded with our "stem cells" which are orgins of the body's immune and blood system and may be the origin of other organs and important systems in the body. Stem cells are important because they have the ability to regenerate into other types of cells in the body.
A few years ago, cord blood was simply discarded as medical waste after a birth. However in the past few years doctors have recognized that the stem cells have unique qualities which can be used in treatment of certain cancers. The most common medical use is for transplantation in many situations where bone marrow is considered. In the future, it is possible that scientists will discover more diseases that can be cured with cord blood.
08-18-2004, 02:35 PM #31Originally Posted by 1victor
your avatars father gave us free will...... but i dont think its right to clone a human either, maybe one just to say we did.....
08-18-2004, 02:35 PM #32
Thank you for the enlightenment. Honestly. Than I see nothing wrong with stem cell research either. Unless it has to do with cloneing.
08-18-2004, 02:36 PM #33Originally Posted by biglouie250
08-18-2004, 02:37 PM #34Originally Posted by BigGenes
true, well they often do get lumped together because they use very similar technologies and have a few other similarities.
08-18-2004, 02:38 PM #35Originally Posted by BigGenes
08-18-2004, 02:44 PM #36
so is this thread over? Have we all agreed against Calvin? No one is posting anything against what I said.
08-18-2004, 02:46 PM #37
Big louie aborted fetuses is exactly what they use to perform stem cell research. And that is why Bush doesnt fully support the concept. If stem cell research becomes effective that will only mean there will be a high demand for more aborted fetuses.
You may be correct with the cord blood but the fetuses is what the president has a problem with. Good moral call if you ask me.
08-18-2004, 02:55 PM #38
If it has to do with aborted fetuses than I am against it as well. And I understand why bush is against it. Read my post in the Poll for bush and Kerry. I said something about my thoughts on abortion.
08-18-2004, 03:53 PM #39
You know whats really sad some of these women that have late term abortions do it over and over again. They do not always sedate these women and the women have to hear their baby be born crying the same as it would in a normal delivery and then hear the doctor end the babys life right then and there. How could a women do this over and over again.
This is how strongly I feel about abortion. I got in trouble for beating a guy up about a year ago. I was kept in jail for 2 1/2 months because the guy kept coming to court telling the judge not to let me out because he was afraid of what I might do to him. While I was in jail my girlfreind cheated on me. She became pregnant because of this. I didnt know untill I went to the ultra sound and seen that it was within the time frame of when I was in jail. Me and her broke up and the father of the child wanted to have it aborted. My girlfreind came back to me saying that she had a solution to the problem she was having an abortion. I got mad and told her that if she was that evil to have an abortion I would not have anything to do with her. I sent her on her way. Now I got to thinking and I told my self that if she aborts that baby it will be partly my fault. So I told her to come back to me and we would raise the little girl ourselves. And thats what we did. I put my name on the birth certificate and I love the little girl the same as if it was my own. And I wouldnt have it any other way. As far as im concerned im the father im the one that kept her alive and im gonna take care of her. The father didnt want to have anything to do with her so as far as im concerned if he ever knocks on my door im gonna stomp the piss out of him.
I found out latter after being a teenager that I was almost aborted when my mom was pregnant with me. Everyone she knew was telling her to do it because my mom and dad was not together at the time. My dad did not let it happen, he went out and bought everything he could think of for a baby and had it delivered to my moms house. Basically letting her see what was on the way.
08-19-2004, 11:39 AM #40Originally Posted by Anhydro78
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