Thread: Muslim Christian Dialogue !
09-01-2004, 07:25 AM #1
Muslim Christian Dialogue !
this is just for entertaining purposes , i am not posting this to get KILL MUSLIM KILL CHRISTIAN ARGUMENTS , read and comprehend whatever u can from this , thx !
The First Contact Between A Christian And A Muslim
C. Why have there been in the last decade many discussions held between Christians and Muslims about their beliefs?
M. I think because we both have several things in common. We believe in the One Creator who had sent many Prophets and in Jesus as the Messiah as well as to the Word of God which had been denied by the Jews.
Our Holy Qur’an mentions in Surah 3:45: "[Remember] when the angels said, "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from him, his name will be Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah."
Dialogues have been held everywhere in Europe, Canada, the USA and Australia. Even the Vatican is not spared where discussions were held between Vatican theologians and Egyptian Muslim scholars in Rome in 1970 and in Cairo in 1974 and 1978. Also between Vatican theologians and Saudi Arabian Muslim scholars in Rome in 1974. Many times in Colombo, not to mention Muslims invited by many churches to present Islam.
C. If Christianity is nearly two thousand years old and Islam more than fourteen hundred years, why were these discussions not held centuries ago?
M. For the last three to four centuries many Asian and African countries dominated by Muslims were colonized by Britain, France, Holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal. Many Christian mission colonists tried to convert as many Muslim as they could by whatever means they had, by giving them medical treatment, clothes, food, jobs to the poor, but only a few were converted. A small part of the elite were converted to Christianity because of their prejudice that Christianity brought them to their civilization and progress of knowledge, They had a wrong notion because this progress was attained after the separation of state and church in Europe.
After the Second World War many Muslims from Asian and African countries were emigrating as workers and professionals to the Western Hemisphere, which brought them more in contact with Christians. Also students were active in introducing Islam.
C. Do you see other reasons why many dialogues were held nowadays even by their respective missions?
M. I think the gap between both is coming smaller as each is more tolerant, although both are still competing in getting more converts. I still remember my Christian teacher who used to say, "Muhammad the impostor, the dreamer, the epileptic." You now find fewer writers depicting Islam in such a manner.
We Muslims feel closer to the Christians than to the Jews and disbelievers as the Qur’an prophesied in Surah 5:82: "thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. This is because there are among them priests and monks (i.e. persons entirely devoted to the service of God, as were the Muslims), and because they are not proud."
Some Christian denominations are making tremendous progress now by acknowledging for the first time in history that Muhammad (PBUH) descended from Ishmael through his second son Kedar. The Davis Dictionary of the Bible, 1980, sponsored by the Board of Christian Education of the Presbyterian Church in the USA, writes under the word Kedar:
"… A tribe descended from Ishmael (Gen. 25:13) … The people of Kedar were Pliny’s Cedrai, and from their tribe Mohammed ultimately arose."
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia quotes the following from A. S. Fulton:
"… Of the Ishmaelite tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important, and thus in later times the name came to be applied to all the wild tribes of the dessert. It is through Kedar (Arab. Keidar) that Muslim genealogists trace the descent of Mohammed from Ishmael."
Also Smith’s Bible Dictionary will not stay behind and prints the following:
"Kedar (black). Second son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:13) … Mohammed traces his lineage to Abraham through the celebrated Koreish tribe, which sprang from Kedar. The Arabs in the Hejaz are called Beni Harb (men of war), and are Ishmaelites as of old, from their beginning. Palgrave says their language is as pure now as when the Koran was written (A.D. 610), having remained unchanged more than 1200 years; a fine proof of the permanency of Eastern Institutions."
The biggest asset brought by Muslim immigrants to the Western hemisphere is not their manpower but the Islam which is now taking root here. Many mosques and Islamic Centers are established and many are reverted to Islam. I prefer the word reverted and not converted, as everybody is born in submission to Allah, i.e. Islam, this is the nature of every child born. The parents or the community convert him to Judaism, Christianity, other faiths, or atheism.
This is also a proof that Islam is not spreading by the sword but simply by propagation by individuals or groups of Muslims. We don’t have special missions organized as in Christian missions.
The world population has increased 136% from 1934 through 1984, Christianity with 47% and Islam with 235%. See The Plain Truth, February 1984, in its 50 Year Anniversary issue, quoting from The World Almanac and Book of Facts 1935 and Reader’s Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983.
C. If all three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are claiming to emanate from the One God and same Creator, why do they differ?
M. All Prophets from Adam to Muhammad (PBUT) were sent with the same message: that is, the total submission of mankind to Allah. This submission in Arabic is called is called Islam; Islam means also Peace, peace between the Creator and His creatures. Unlike the names Judaism and Christianity, this name Islam has been given by Allah, the Creator Himself, as mentioned in Surah 5:3: "This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favor on you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." Neither the name Judaism nor Christianity is found in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. No Israelite Prophet mentioned the word Judaism. Jesus never claimed to establish Christianity on earth and never called himself a Christian. The word Christianity is mentioned only three times in the New Testament and first in Antioch."
Later by King Agrippa II to Paul in Acts 26:28: "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
So the name Christian was first given by foes rather than friends. And finally by Peter in his letter to comfort the faithful in I Peter 4:16: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed. …"
The first [to be called] Muslim on earth is not Muhammad but Abraham who submitted totally to Allah. But Islam as a way of life had been revealed to other prophets prior to Abraham like Adam and Noah. Then Islam follows as the way of life for all humanity.
C. How could Abraham be a Muslim? He is known as a Jew!
M. A Jew? Who told you that?
C. We are taught that; it must be confirmed by the Bible, too.
M. Can you show me where in the Bible it says that he is a Jew? If you can’t find it quickly, let me help you. Read Genesis 11:31.
C. "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram’s wife, and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran and dwelt there."
M. So Abraham who was born in Ur of Chaldees could not have been a Jew. First because Ur of Chaldees was in Mesopotamia, which is now part of Iraq. He was then more an Arab than a Jew. Secondly the name Jew came after the existence of Judah, the great-grandson of Abraham (see chart on page 12). Read further, Genesis 12:4 and 5.
C. "… and Abraham was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. … and into the land of Canaan they came."
M. So Abraham emigrated to Canaan at the age of seventy-five and the Bible clearly mentioned that he was there a stranger in Genesis 17:8; "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Read now Genesis 14:13.
C. "And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew;"
M. How can you call Abraham a Jew if the Bible itself calls him a Hebrew which means a man from the other side of the Euphrates. It also means pertaining to Eber, a descendant of Shem. Read now in Genesis 32:38 what happened to the name of Jacob after wrestling with an angel.
C. "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
M. So Abraham was a Hebrew. The descendants of Jacob were Israelites consisting of the twelve tribes. Judah was nicknamed "Jew" so that only Judah’s descendants were called Jews originally.
To know who Moses really was, read Exodus 6:16-20.
C. "And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gherson, and Kohath, and Merari. … And the sons of Kohath: Amran. … Amran took him Jochebed his father’s sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses."
M. So Moses was not a Jew because he was not descended from Judah but a Levite. Moses was the "law-giver" (Torah is law) to the children of Israel.
C. How can you explain that?
M. Because we are using the Qur’an as standard. You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur’an. It is the last revealed Book which has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its contents has been guaranteed by Allah in Surah 2:2: "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt …" and also in Surah 15:9: "No doubt We have sent down the Qur’an and surely We will guard it (from corruption)." This verse is a challenge to mankind. It is a clear fact that more than fourteen hundred years have passed and not a single word of this Qur’an has been changed although disbelievers tried their utmost to change it, but they failed miserably in their efforts. As it is mentioned in this Holy Verse: "We will guard this Book," by Allah, He has guarded it.
On the contrary, all the other holy books (Torah, Psalms, Gospels, etc.) have been adulterated in the form of additions, deletions or alterations from the original.
C. What dies the Qur’an say about Abraham and Moses that you can deduce it from the Bible?
M. In Surah 3:65: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have yon then no sense?"
And in Surah 3: 67: "Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim (worshiper of none but Allah alone) and he joined none in worship with Allah."
In Surah 2:140: "Or say you that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve sons of Jacob were Jews or Christians? Say (O Muhammad), "Do you know better or does Allah (know better)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do." Of course they were not Jews or Christians as the name Jews came after Judah and the name Christians came long after Jesus had left.
C. It feel strange to hear the name Allah. Why don’t you say God if you speak English?
M. Yes, indeed, the name Allah seems to be strange to non-Muslims but this name has been used by all Prophets since Adam until Muhammad (PBUT). It is contraction of the two Arabic words Al-Ilah, i.e. The God. By dropping the letter "I" you will find the word Allah. According to its position in an Arabic sentence it can have the form Allaha which is close to the Hebrew name of the Creator, i.e. Eloha. But the Jews are using wrongly the plural form Elohim which denotes more than one God. The word Allaha sounds closer to the Aramaic word for God used by Jesus, namely Alaha (see Encyclopedia Britannica 1980 under Allah and Elohim). So while the name Allah is strange to non-Muslims, it is not strange to all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad (PBUT), as they propagated in principle the same Islam, i.e. total submission, and the word Allah denotes the personal name of the Supreme Being. It is not subject to plurality or gender, so there is no such thing as Allahs, or male or female Allah, as there is Gods or God and Goddess. It is confusing to use the word God as many English-speaking Christians still consider Jesus as God. Even the word Creator is also confusing, as many Christians still maintain that Jesus had created the world.
Not only the name Allah is strange, but also the way Muslims worship Allah with ablution, bowing kneeling, prostration and fasting is strange to non-Muslims, but not strange to all Prophets. While ablution (washing of face, arms, feet, and moistening of the hair) prior to worship is abandoned by modern Christians, it is still required by Muslims and previous Prophets, as seen in the following passages of the Bible:
Exodus 40:31-32: "And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat; When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Although Paul made many changes in Jesus’ teaching, he was still faithful in respect to ablution as seen in Acts 21:26: "Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple …"
Muslim women perform their prayer with their head covered as in I Corinthians 11:5,6 and 13: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is evil all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shamed for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. … Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?"
Muslims worship with bowing, kneeling, prostration and without shoes as done by previous Prophets: Psalm 95:6: "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker." Joshua 5:14: "And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship …" I Kings 18:42: "And Elijah went up to the top of the Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face to between his knees." Numbers 20:6: "… and they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared upon them, saying …" Genesis 17:3: "And Abraham fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying …" Exodus 3:5 and Acts 7:33: "And he [God] said [to Moses], Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."
A Christian will shiver in hearing that Pilgrimage or Hajj as is now done by Muslims by circumambulating around the sacred stone Ka‘bah in Mecca, had been performed by many Prophets, even by Israelite Prophets.
C. I never read Pilgrimage or sacred stone in the Bible.
M. This has been mentioned clearly several times but overlooked by Bible readers:
1. Jacob on his way to Padan-aram saw a vision and built the next morning a pillar of stone which he called Beth-El, i.e. and House of the Lord
2. (Genesis 28:18-19). Years later the same Prophet, Jacob, was ordered by Allah to go to Beth-El
3. (Genesis 35:4,14,15). Jacob removed all the strange Gods prior to going there. Later also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) removed all idols around the sacred stone Ka‘bah in Mecca. Another pillar was built by Jacob and his father-in-law Laban
4. (Genesis 31:45-49): "And Jacob took a stone, and set it up for a pillar. And Jacob said unto his brethren, Gather stones; and they took stones, and made an heap; and they did eat there upon the heap. And Laban called it Jegar-sahadutha, but Jacob called it Galeed. … And Mizpeh; for he said, The Lord watch between me and thee …" Jephthah and Ammon had a war against each other. Jephthah swore to the Lord in Mizpeh of Gilead to sacrifice his only daughter if he won. He did win, and burnt his daughter there alive as an offering to the Lord
5. (Judges 11:29-39). Four hundred thousand swordsmen from the eleven tribes of Israel swore before the Lord in Mizpeh to exterminate the tribes of Benjamin
6. (Judges 20 and 21). The
7. children of Israel under Samuel swore in Mizpeh to destroy their idols if they won against the Philistines (I Samuel 7). The
whole nation of Israel assembled in Mizpeh when Samuel was appointed king of Israel (I Samuel 10).
It is obvious now that there is no Mizpeh left in this world except the oldest one in the Holy City of Mecca built by Abraham and his son Ishmael, from whom later Prophet Muhammad arose. Muslims are really the followers of all Prophets. I can tell you other things about Muslims, Islam and Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible, but why should you know this if you are not looking for the truth?
C. I am sure of my own belief as a Christian but I am stimulated to know more about both religions. I feel sometimes ridiculed as a Christian after reading books written by Muslims.
M. Did it affect you in your religious life?
C. Yes, I am not going to Church as regularly as before. I have been secretly reading books written by Muslims. I have asked several Muslims what was not clear to me, but not to my satisfaction. I am looking for a belief that I can rely on, that can give me peace of mind, scientifically acceptable, and not just believe in it blindly.
M. It should be like that. I appreciate your attitude. But we are not allowed to allure anyone. We propagate only to those who want to listen to us.
C. But I am free to choose any belief I like and nobody can stop me.
M. Yes, there is no compulsion in religion.
C. Why are Muslims calling other people to accept their belief, then?
M. As Christians ask the Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, we Muslims ask the Christians as well as Jews and all mankind to accept Muhammad (PBUH) as the Seal of all Prophets. Our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Convey my message even one ayah (verse of the Holy Qur’an)."
Also Isaiah mentioned in chapter 21:13, "The Burden upon Arabia," which means the responsibility of the Muslim Arabs, of course of all Muslims now, to spread the Islam. Isaiah mentioned this after he saw in a vision a chariot of asses and a chariot of camels (21:7): "And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed."
The chariot of asses turned out to be Jesus who entered Jerusalem (John 12:14; Matthew 21:5). Who then was the chariot of camels? It could not be other than Muhammad (PBUH) who came about six hundred years after the advent of Messiah. If this is not accepted, then this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
C. Your explanation stimulates me to review the Bible more carefully. I would like to get more discussions with you.
M. Yes, if you are successful in this world, it doesn’t mean that you will be successful in the hereafter. The hereafter is much better and more lasting than this life. People are now becoming more materialistic and secular. Let us come together several times and discuss the differences frankly and without prejudice. Islam is based on reason, and you should not just accept it. Even your Bible says, "Prove things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21).
C. You quoted just now "chariot of camels" from Isaiah and made the conclusion that it was Muhammad. Is he then prophesied in the Bible?
C. In the Old or New Testament?
M. In both. But you cannot recognize him in the Bible as long as you don’t believe in the Oneness of God. I mean as long as you still believe in the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, the Divine Sonship of Jesus, the Original Sin and the Atonement. All these doctrines made by men. Jesus had prophesied (Matthew 15:9) that people will worship him uselessly and believing in doctrines mad by men: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
09-01-2004, 07:33 AM #2
I know it may not always appear that way but I honestly have no prejudice against Muslims that are peaceful and practice their religion faithfully. It's the extremeists and lilitant one that bother me, even Christian extremeists bother me so it is not a prejudice at all. Intolerance brings out the worst in me. Excellent post.
09-01-2004, 07:50 AM #3Originally Posted by 1victor
09-01-2004, 07:52 AM #4
Louie at least you are honest. BTW how much did that car set you back?
09-01-2004, 07:58 AM #5
thread jack!!! in total im paying 35 and change for the car. that is including interest over 4 years so its not bad at all. the sales manager sold me the car. he doesnt get commision from the vehicle he gets bonuses on the amount of cars he sells so i lucked out there. the actually price of the vehicle was 31579
09-01-2004, 08:15 AM #6
Back to the topic, sorry Zoab.
09-01-2004, 09:34 AM #7
Zaob that was a very non-biased read on the three religions, I enjoyed it
EVERYONE ON HERE THAT LIKES TO FIGHT(INCLUDING ME) ABOUT POLATICS AND SUCH READ THE WHOLE THING!!!
Alot of the stuff in there I allready knew, but it also confirms some of my beliefs about all this. Why cant Christians and Muslims be freinds like Christians and jews are. I can tell you first hand from sitting threw many sermons week after week. I have never heard a Christian Pastor saying anything about the Arabs. I have heard of some being harsh towards them after 9/11 but that would be understandable. But on the other hand we have had a whole bunch of muslim Clerics calling us The Great Satan for decades now. We are not the ones that attacked them, they attacked us.
I am one that believes you muslims do have a right to the God of Abraham. But at the same note if you believe in jesus than you need to also follow his teachings. I have read the Quran and know that there isnt much in there that explains the storys of the Key figures of the religion. i know you guys trust the Quran over the other books. But you guys have to relize that without reading and believing the other books Torah and Bible you would never really know the story of these people. You cant really believe that our Scriptures are that tainted other wise you would have no intrest in reading. The fact is if you read nothing but the Quran you will know nothing about the history of your religion. From what I take of it is a continual explaination that Muhhamed is the true prophet. God interacted with the jews and the christian for centurys before the Quran even came out in 600A.D... So if you want to follow the God that you believe in why has there been non-stop hate coming out of your Mousques.
If you believe that jesus is part of your religion you might want to study his teachings a little.
09-01-2004, 09:39 AM #8Originally Posted by Anhydro78
I am actually a Muslim convert , i was catholic by birth and practice till the beginning of this year , so i am quite informed about toratic and biblical studies , thx !
09-01-2004, 09:46 AM #9
SO what was in the Quran that made you convert to islam??? And when I said that muslims need to further research jesus' teaching I wasnt refering to you specifically. I just dont understand how Muslims can be calling us the Great Satan for decades now when they believe in the same God we do.
Just for the record I myself wanted to know if the Muslims have a legit claim to our religion. Thats why I bought a Quran and thats why studied it. And from what I can tell is you guys do. Im not confident about muhammed though. To me his actions seemed a little strange to me. But im sure you guys can say the same about us.
Give me some of the scriptures in the Quran that kinda helped you convert to islam.
09-01-2004, 10:48 AM #10Originally Posted by Anhydro78
for starters ,
the dogma of trinity and the miraculous birth of jesus (pbuh) were my interest of areas when i was a christian , and believe me i was really not even near islam at that point , it all happened when i went to a bookshop NY looking for some interesting books , i saw the Al Quran , with english translation to it ............ bought it and took it with me , i had to hide it in my house since my dad being quite religious would ahve thought i was goign mad or something !
but anyways , i started reading it , and filterign through the chapters i saw the chapter where the Quran talks about the miraculous birth of jesus (pbuh)
and how he healed the diseased and wake the dead up , also mentioned how he was not crucified and that one of his apostles voluteered in his place so God changed his face to look like jesus (pbuh) .......... and also some verses where God tells the people who have bonded a son to him , that how grevious of a thing is to say to God regarding that God is on the levels of humans , if he has a son .................
all this sparked interest in the book for me at first , so i started researching our teachings compared to the quranic , also i looked into Muhammed (pbuh) life what he did and stuff ............
so in the long run , as i read the quran , the first thing to remember is that book was brought to Muhammed (pbuh) by gabriel , and it was a verse at a time , to guide him through his prophethood , and it was not brought down as a whole , whenever they would get stuck in conflict or something God would send gabriel with verses to guide them through ! .............
now the other factor that brought my interest is that , jesus never spoke English ( i am sure we all agree to this fact ) he spoke araimic , which is a predecessor lang to Arabic , and what we have in the bible today is the translitered version of what could have been the original , also remembering that jesus never had the bible written down in his lifetime ! ............ and paul broguht it to the light after 30 yr of his passing !
and for the Quran if u pick any Quran in the world it will match word to word n text to text , with the smallest of the exclamation marks n stuff , and the book has never been changed since it was brought down !
reading the whole quran i did not find it conflicting anywhere with anything what we ahve today is very illiterate muslims who by birth are them and dont know one crap about what their religion really is , to more clearify , there isnt one ISLAMIC REPUBLIC country on the face of this planet , not one muslim country is following their religion to the DOT , and hence u have what we have today .......................
the Quran is very scientific , where it talks from the creation of universe as we know the BIG BAND THEORY , and to how the fetus looks like in a mothers womb , and and various other facts of life , i will INSHALLAH ( god willing) post some in detail later..............
my point is if u want to read the quran dont read it as the book of muslims its not , its the book for MUMINEEN ( the believers ) even the Quran talks about that only 1 out of a thousand muslims will go to heaven and 999 are goign to hell , maybe because there are more muslims who take everythign for granted and really dont know anything !
read the book thourougly and if u r looking for the right stuff ull see it , u have to completely empty your heart of bias , and look it as a book , with information ....................
also the Prophet (pbuh) life is well documented by numerous historians , and his whole life was closely watched by the people he lived with , and if they talk about how many wives he had n stuff , i recommend reading the details of his marriage life and find out the truth , how he had all those wives .
also islam is the only religion that says one does not have to be celibus to get close to God , but marry and make numbers in the beleivers for the future , it answers everythign to the intimate relations of a couple to the kingdom of how the ants work ! ..................
i will post some interesting stuff ! for informative purposes in the future , thx for asking !
09-01-2004, 11:02 AM #11
Why We Are The Great Satan ?
to be honest how many people in your life u know havent committed adultery which is one of the henious sins even from a christians perspective , also by research in the early times old testament PIGS or SWINE were not allowed to be consumed by order of God ! hence jesus never ate swine , also ......... but later on our so called Experts in religion decided since we can farm pigs and keep them in a clean environment , they are no longer DIRTY so hence consumable and so edited the bible ................ if u say USA is a christian country , i will say no since , there are christians living here but not all of them are , seriously tell me a country where GODS name is being strucken out , really doesnt show much belief in GOD , also ask how many people u know who are prominent about teachings of christianity n follow them whole heartidly ................ the divorce rate in thsi country tells u something about what is happening here , i went over to thailand for my honeymoon , and stayed for a month and got to know some families there , also finding out how moral those people were in their beliefs (islam) and how the society saw adultery and fornication with a very bad eye , i mean u cant live in that society for one day if u are foudn to be guilty of something like that ......... just some things that made me saw more of the truth ! .......... our nightlife , gambling , homosexuality at a rise , fornication , porno kingdom , isnt that all SATANIC .............. we display our women bare on TV , for the whole world to see , and i think it pretty much tells them which direction we are headed in ! ........... just my opinion , or its the way i see life here !
09-01-2004, 11:13 AM #12Originally Posted by ZOAIB
but that's what Americans consider "freedom"........but really most of us live in bondage.........bondage to unbridled consumerism and lust of the flesh.
09-01-2004, 11:58 AM #13
See this is how I started having intrest in religion. I didnt have anyone talking about it to me. I didnt watch any TV evangelists. No one in my family was a Christian. I called someone I knew one night that was a preacher( My freinds uncle) and asked what it meant to be saved. By this time I have bought a bible and skimmed though it. I asked for the verses that read how to be saved in the bible. This is where the fun began. I got saved and instantly within the next few days I was being fed information about Gods ways. The stuff was just popping up in my mind. I read a good portion of the bible because that is what I thought god wanted me to do before I even started going to church. For about two years I did nothing but live for god. Everyone around me got saved. My whole family and most of my freinds. Most of which are still christians today.I even bought a big van to start taking kids to church and bought cases of bibles. I took my entire pay checks and bought bibles with them. I started getting checks in the mail from people I didnt even know so I took the money and bought even more bibles with them. I recieved checks from weird places. But the whole time I knew what God wanted me to do. And it wasnt something I could handle. He wanted me to work for him for the rest of my life. And for what ever reason I have a proplem with that. So I backslide and am having trouble getting back to where I was at. I dont know if this is what Christianity means for everyone but this is what it meant for me to devote my life to god. I even had a church ask me to be their youth paster. I just cant handle all of that. And since then Ive just been a bitter depressed person.
09-01-2004, 12:02 PM #14Originally Posted by Anhydro78
bro all u need is to regroup yourself , and pray this " God show me only the path of truth , which ever direction it may lead ill follow it " wholeheartidly and ull see the difference !
09-01-2004, 12:02 PM #15
i dont trust anyone who doesnt feast on pig......(bacon, chops, ham, feet, etc) wow that is truly a godly animal!
09-01-2004, 12:13 PM #16
I agree with everything posted here for the most part even you Badger. (BTW Louie I'm not saying pigs are Godly but I love pork loin!)
Anhydro I agree with Zoab all Gods wants is for you to love him and accept him into your life. Keep it simple for a while.
09-01-2004, 12:15 PM #17
That was my problem I had evidence that God was working through me and all around me but mentally I cant handle it. I have Bi-Polar disorder and it takes everything I got to make myself act this good. The problem was the pressure I thought God was putting on me. He wouldnt even let me relax to watch TV. I was constantly being convicted to do something constructive. I know where he wanted me to go but I wouldnt follow. I still know what he wants me to do but its just to hard for me.
09-01-2004, 12:18 PM #18
Also I have lived in a christian secluded program for 10 months trying to get back what I had, but he just wont interact with me the same as he did before.
This is also why I say Im not a Christian. Im not sure he will even have me anymore.
09-01-2004, 12:21 PM #19
Anhydro, are you taking amything to help you with your condition? I believe that they are helpful, useful tools. The most important thing is to stay plugged in with someone at your church that will hold you accountable and keep you in the word, to motivate you and keep you focused. It says over and over that it's not going to be easy, this is when you need to press on and cling to the word. Satan is trying to derail you and he takes delight in your suffering. What you are feeling is not from God but from his enemy Satan. Don't be fooled into submission.
09-01-2004, 12:23 PM #20
How long did the Jews wander? How long was Moses in the desert? It will come in Gods time, until then be a patient , faithful servant of God.
09-01-2004, 12:27 PM #21
To get back to the original subject. Why does Mulsims believe that the people that God dealt with for so many years has tainted the bible. The only differences I seen with Bible or Quran was just like Zoaib said they dont believe jesus was crucified.
09-01-2004, 12:30 PM #22
I think it comes in the belief that it was a revelation by Gabriel to Muhhamad and not a "human" written account. Is that correct Zoab?
09-01-2004, 12:32 PM #23
The intresting thing is I didnt have to take all my medicine when I was saved. I did just fine. I had the problem before and after, but not while serving God.
Victor you have to understand that for me being a Christian is not as easy as just believing and having faith. He wants me to work for him and really im not willing to provide that kind of commitment. If what everyone else got out of christianity is what I did everyone would have to be a missionary.
09-01-2004, 12:36 PM #24
Yeah but all the New testament writters where Holy spirit inspired. And you know victor what that means.
I would agree that would probally be why they consider the Quran more accurate than the torah or Bible. Allthough moses had face to face contact. So did Abraham and jacob.
09-01-2004, 12:38 PM #25
I understand where you are coming from and we have six kids or I would be a missionary. Is it a situation like mine that prevents it? Being a Christian for us (my family, my church) is not a Sunday obligation it is a way of life and our daily thoughts, activities etc.. are centered around God. I understand devotion as you know it.
09-01-2004, 12:39 PM #26
So Anhydro78, you're admitting to us that you're mentally handicapped?
09-01-2004, 12:41 PM #27
Yes it is funny though how all want to claim superiority over the other. I can't say that but I can say that the Bible is my choice for spiritual growth and salvation AS I know it. God will have to decide in the end. I hope he has left some "wiggle room" for us all!
09-01-2004, 12:42 PM #28
Need fuc* off! This was an excellent thread before you showed up. Go to another thread and spew your crap.
09-01-2004, 12:46 PM #29
YES the QURAN is not written by human hands but given directly to Muhammed (pbuh) through gabriel , thats our belief ! also remembering , Muhammed (pbuH) was illiterate ..............
09-01-2004, 01:07 PM #30
Regardless of our differing views I hope we all make it to heaven, to God we are like infants so He has to know that we are helpless morons for the most part (compared to Him). Perhaps He will give us all enough Grace to enter into the Kindom.
09-01-2004, 01:16 PM #31Originally Posted by 1victor
Religion is the drug of the ignorant.
09-01-2004, 01:19 PM #32
Need.......Another person that serves no purpose, your purpose will meet YOU in the end and your arrogance will be judged. Probably some pubescent kid living with mommy and daddy still. I would give what ever I had to in repentance to have you right here, right now so I could correct your manners for you and I would little boy.
09-01-2004, 01:29 PM #33
See I myself seen different signs that God has interacted with muslim religion. Just like when you say Muhammed was illiterate. God has allways used the people that could not do these things themselves to proove that God is working through them. The only thing I cant get over is them saying Jesus didnt die on the cross. There has to be some things in the Quran that isnt totally God inspired. There is some things in the New Testament where Paul shows some of his Jewish believes through some of the letters. That even go against what god had outlined himself though his teachings. Im refering to the treatment of women, before anyone starts flamming.
And yes "Need" to be Huge if you consider Bi-Polar Disorder a mental Handicap then yes I am.
09-01-2004, 02:35 PM #34
09-01-2004, 02:42 PM #35Originally Posted by NEED2BEHUGE
reluctantly i agree with you....
09-01-2004, 03:08 PM #36Originally Posted by biglouie250
09-01-2004, 04:14 PM #37
anhydro , unlike the bible , whihc is a collection of word of god , word of christ , and word of the historians all put in one place , in the muslim religion the word of god is the QURAN , the word of prophet muhammed (pbuh) is called the HADITH , which is seperate and was collected by his followers and put in a book , but the word of GOD which is the QURAN is purely from GOD and the HADITH from the prophet (pbuh) are in correspondence with what the quran teaches , also there is every little law that gives women rights and dignity in islam , but most muslim countries dont follow them , it surprised me as much it will u , islam was the first religion to give women a dignified status in society giving them , right to marry , right to divorce , right to dowry etc etc ............ so when u read the QURAN it truly is the Completely from GOD and it so is true since the tone in which the verses are , how a thrid person passes the first persons message in this case (GOD) and the 3rd is gabriel , and there is nothing in the Quran which is said from the prophet , his teachings are seperate in the book of the HADITH .
"Alif Laam Raa. A book which we have revealed to you (Muhammad) so that you may lead the people from out of the darknesses into the light by their Lord's leave to the path of the All-Mighty, the Praiseworthy." [Qur'an 14:1]
09-02-2004, 07:32 AM #38
Interesting story Zoiab.
Yes Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was illiterate, he could not read or write.
The verses from the Koran were sent to him from GOD through the Arch Angel Gabriel.
Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) when getting these messages from Gabriel used to break out in the biggest sweat, and sometimes tears used to come out of his eyes. At many times people thought he was in pain, cause getting those revelations were very intense.
09-02-2004, 07:56 AM #39
Guys I have to say that I love this thread. This is what I envision when thinking about a religious thread. We can all express our views and respect each others beliefs. Although we don't agree on the details we can still have a productive educational dicussion. I honestly like learning about all of your beliefs even if they are not my own.
09-02-2004, 07:58 AM #40Originally Posted by 1victor
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