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  1. #1
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Israeli rabbis: DON'T SPARE CIVILIANS

    A group of prominent Jewish rabbis have asked the Israeli army not to flinch from killing Palestinian civilians in the context of the ongoing military campaign against armed groups resisting the occupation.

    In a letter to the Israeli defence minister, Shaul Mofaz, published on Tuesday, the rabbis said killing enemy civilians is "normal" during the time of war and that the Israeli occupation army should never hesitate to kill non-Jewish civilians in order to save Jewish lives.

    "There is no war in the world in which it is possible to delineate entirely between the population and the enemy army, neither in the US war in Iraq, the Russian war in Chechnya, nor in Israel's war with its enemies," the rabbis said.

    The rabbis quoted a Talmudic edict, or religious ruling, stating that "our lives come first".

    "The Christian preaching of 'turning the other cheek' doesn't concern us, and we will not be impressed by those who prefer the lives of our enemies to our lives," they said.

    The letter was signed by a number of Israeli rabbis including Haim Druckman, a former Knesset member who heads a large religious youth movement known as the Bnei Akiva Society; Eliezer Melamed, head of a West Bank religious college; and Youval Sharlo, the head of another Talmudic college in Petah Tikva which combines Talmudic studies with active military service.

    It is worth noting that many rabbis, especially within Conservative and Reform Judaism, don't share the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox view of non-Jews.

    But the Conservative and Reform branches of Judaism, despite their numerical superiority, have very little influence in Israel and are generally mistreated by the powerful Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox branches, who view secular Jews as somehow less than real Jews.

    Incidentally, a few months ago a prominent rabbi in the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arbaa near Hebron issued an edict stating that non-Jewish civilians may be killed to save Jewish lives, soldiers and civilians alike.

    The rabbi, Dov Lior, argued that non-Jewish lives had no sanctity, especially during the time of war.

    Lior has publicly praised and eulogised Baruch Goldstein, an American Jewish settler who in 1994 mowed down 29 Arab worshippers who were praying at Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque.

    Calling Goldstein a "great saint", he said a "thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail".

    Earlier this year, Lior enthusiastically supported the killing of Palestinian civilians in Rafah in southern Gaza, saying that "it is very clear in light of the Torah that Jewish lives are more important than non-Jewish lives".

    In formulating their theological positions, Lior and other like-minded rabbis rely on an old Talmudic maxim which states that it is a mitzvah (imperative religious duty) to kill enemy civilians in war time.

    The same rabbis also often quote Torah verses in which God is shown instructing the ancient Israelites to annihilate the Canaanites in ancient Palestine.

    Since the outbreak of al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000, the Israeli army and paramilitary Jewish groups have killed as many as 3500 Palestinians, the bulk of them civilians, including more than 600 children and minors.

    During the same period, Palestinian fighters have killed nearly a thousand Israeli soldiers, settlers and civilians.

  2. #2
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    I'm not sure if I can say this without contradicting my beleifs but I wish the whole world would step aside and let you two sort this out one way ot the other.

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    Let me qualify this statement like this. It is obvious that I am not an antsemite. But I lived in Philly/NJ/NY area for years when I was younger and this attitude that a Jewish life is more superior or more important than a Muslims life is not the Jews only opinion. They feel the same way about EVERYONE even Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Let me qualify this statement like this. It is obvious that I am not an antsemite. But I lived in Philly/NJ/NY area for years when I was younger and this attitude that a Jewish life is more superior or more important than a Muslims life is not the Jews only opinion. They feel the same way about EVERYONE even Christians.
    Yeah, the religious jews do.

    As I said the relationship between Christian America and Jewish Israel is a very weird one.

    Evangelists support Israel to fullfil their prophecy about the end of times, and Evangelist Priest like Fawell have said if Jews dont accept Christ they will go to hell.

    I think both countries are using each other for their benefit. Obviously Israel gets the better deal in this mutual relationship.

    But trust me this honeymoon will end.

    1victor are you Evangelist? If not, what sect of Christianity are you?

  5. #5
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    Evangelist.

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    please don't be offensed 1victor.
    i find Evangelism quite millitant compared to other forms/sect of christianty even you sound quite millitant against islam.

    its incredibly anti-arab & anti-islamic.
    infact i actually read stuff written by people who where Evangelist and they are always calling for wars or crusades against arabs and muslims.

    i want to know is this only in certain Evangelist churches or is this in all Evangelist churches.

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    That sounds exactly like what a orthadox Jew would say. Its in their religion!!! If you read in the Torah all the instuctions GOd gives the Jews when they go into battle, you will see why they think this way.


    Ill tell you this right now if a preacher uses his time to teach his people to go on a rant about polatics, he isnt using his time wisely. The most important thing a person, preacher, preist can teach is Gods Love. What do you think Gods hot topics are polatics, ciggarettes, cussing, porn and paying your church dues. I get tired of hearing these guys talk about all this. I have not heard one sermon about muslims yet, allthough im sure some have allready. I havnt even heard of such a thing till 9/11.

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    What a day!

    Fundamentalists, extremists, conservative, ultra-orthadox whatever you want to call them are ignorant bigots that we, the world need to shun and take away their ability to spread their hatred. As long as we stand by and allow them to spew their hatred without doing anything we are just as guilty of the crimes they commit or cause to be commited as they are.

    chance

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    Chance that rant made no sense. When I say Evangelical it's not Jimmy Swaggart type crap. It's really considered a nondenominational Christian Church. We have no sect. We as Evangelicals preach about Gods love "The Good News" if you will. That is our focus not extremeism or fundamentalism.

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    There is militant christians but they are usuually who the rest of Christians consider extremist or just odd in general. I know some personally. They are intresting people, but they like others want to stay in The Old Testament. Which isnt christianity. The intresting thing is that when these Jewish rabbis and Muslim clerics talk about killing one another it is pretty much commanded by God. But some choose not to take it that far.


    I know what you are saying chances, but the people that preach these things are ussually consider to be fully faithfull to God.

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    The thing about my church is although we are all aware of sin and our sins I can't recall a single sermon in which it was pounded into us about sin. I could not or would not be able to take the condemnation. That's not what it's all about and that's what keeps people from moving forward with God.

  12. #12
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    i really wish we could all live in peace

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    I wish that we could too. Unfortunatley there are some who don't. I forgot all about my experiences with the Jewish people in the northeast. They talked down to gentiles big time. I don't think you have to be a fundamentalist Jew to feel this way. If a Jew is practicing their religion properly they believe it to be true. That they are more than....... and everyone else is less than.

    Quick story I got into some trouble and got some comminity service as part of my sentence. I was sentenced to 200 hours of community service at the local Jewish Community Center. The center could have given me anything to do but they made me work in the locker room and the steam room cleaning showers and toilets, scrubbing grout mildew that was there since the beginning of time. Anyway all the people there would call me "boy" when they addressed me . Boy, get me this, boy do that like that.(it really made me angry) I spent a lot of time in the locker room with old dudes and their sagging asses with their balls hanging to their knees just walking around and chatting naked like no big deal. I think I have post traumatic stress cause I just remembered it after 17 years!

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    What I was saying that murder in the name of God is still murder and the less extreme members who stand up for such groups are just as guilty as those that follow them and commit such acts. The adjectives I listed are just those that I could think of off the top of my head that people use to seperate themselves from these extremists.

    Rabbis calling for the murder of civilians makes them no different than the extremists that kill indescriminately in the name of God or Allah or some other higher being. It's all wrong. I wasn't talking of any one religion or group or sect. I'm just sick and tired of killing in the name of God. I'm not even a religious person. I'm an agnostic, and don't really care either way. A lot of that has to do with the extreme feelings on all sides that I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    chance

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Let me qualify this statement like this. It is obvious that I am not an antsemite. But I lived in Philly/NJ/NY area for years when I was younger and this attitude that a Jewish life is more superior or more important than a Muslims life is not the Jews only opinion. They feel the same way about EVERYONE even Christians.
    Are you saying that for a fact after checking it with them? Or maybe it's just your speculations because of the fact many of them don't "mix" in marriage with none Jews, and won't eat in none Kosher homes, for example?
    Last edited by Rak_Ani; 09-08-2004 at 06:48 AM.

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    It was my personal experiences. I saw Jewish places of business that would hire non-Jews only as the help and were very condescening even rude to the employees. I don't care if they would not eat with me or date me, I'm just saying that there was alot of arrogance on their part.

    I will note also that practicing Muslims feel the same way regarding all other people except Muslims. There are plenty of problems with Christianity too. I was just not impressed by any religious leader saying that the lives of that particular religion are more signifigant or more purposeful or meaningful than those that were not of his religion ie:Jewish. It made me recall some past experiences.

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    the jews think there important becuase they are god "chosen" people

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    I agree there is an adhereance to that philosophy. We are all important IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I agree there is an adhereance to that philosophy. We are all important IMO.
    exactly every one is as important as each other.
    and every one and every race is gods chosen people.
    the jews need to realise this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    the jews think there important becuase they are god "chosen" people
    I thought we agreed you shouldn't try to interprit religions you know nothing about.

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    Rak, The comment of the Rabbi speaks for itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Rak, The comment of the Rabbi speaks for itself.
    Have you noticed I ignored it?

  23. #23
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    What does your silence mean? I hope that you disagree with the Rabbis statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Rak, The comment of the Rabbi speaks for itself.
    BTW, the whole "chosen people" issue has been so twisted and bent that most people probably don't know what it was about in the first place. It's not how it's so conveniently presented by those who can afford expensive propaganda.

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    I could care less if the Jewish people feel superior (or don't). That is not my point. My point is the focus of his statement.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I could care less if the Jewish people feel superior (or don't). That is not my point. My point is the focus of his statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Let me qualify this statement like this. It is obvious that I am not an antsemite. But I lived in Philly/NJ/NY area for years when I was younger and this attitude that a Jewish life is more superior or more important than a Muslims life is not the Jews only opinion. They feel the same way about EVERYONE even Christians.
    You're the one who brought it up.

    And regarding the Rabbis, apparently the fact they are an extremist minority from the settlements, and that their comments drew a lot of fire from the rest, is not a factor to you.

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    Rak, I did bring it up to compare my personal experiences to the statement made by the Rabbi. I dare you to call me an antisemite, which is what I feel is coming next. That is the farthest thing from the truth. You claim that it was admonished by the others please post those articles and sources. I have the ability to see both side of an issue. In this case the Rabbis statement is inflammatory and ignorant IMO.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Rak, I did bring it up to compare my personal experiences to the statement made by the Rabbi. I dare you to call me an antisemite, which is what I feel is coming next. That is the farthest thing from the truth. You claim that it was admonished by the others please post those articles and sources. I have the ability to see both side of an issue. In this case the Rabbis statement is inflammatory and ignorant IMO.
    Would you like me to scan the article from the Israeli newspaper for you?
    If you tell me you can find someone to translate Hebrew for you, I'll have it scanned. How's that?

    Oh, and I forgot. I don't use the world antisemite lightly, so it would take a lot more from you to be called that.

  29. #29
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    Rak, if you say it is so I believe it.

  30. #30
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    Back at ya

    Here are some sermons from Imams,

    Abdul Malik, imam of Oakland, California's Masjid Al-Islam mosque. "Those young people who explode themselves to kill the Jews were not committing suicide but jihad," Ghuneim said, "They are mujahedeen because there is no way to struggle and fight the Jews except that way. Allah bless those martyrs." The imam voiced empathy and support for suicide bombers, denied Muslims were involved in 9-11, characterized the war on terror as a conspiratorial Zionist plot designed to destroy Islam and Muslims, and blamed attacks on affirmative action on "the rise of the Jewish cracker,"

    Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah's message : "Kill the Jews and those Americans who are like them and those who stand with them; they are all in one trench against the Arabs and Muslims. Because they created Israel here inside the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine, they created it to be the vanguard of their civilization, the vanguard of their armies, to be the sword of the West and the Crusaders, over the necks of the Muslims , "Whoever has not merited Martyrdom in these times should rise in the night and ask: 'My Lord why have you denied me Martyrdom?'", says the Palestinian preacher.(Palestinian Television, October 13, 2000).

    At Friday prayer of Dr. Abdel-Samie Mahmoud Ibrahim Moussa
    "O Allah, destroy the houses of the enemies of Islam! O Allah, help us to annihilate the enemies of Islam! O Allah, grant victory everywhere to the Nation of Islam", said the preacher immediately before Friday prayers.
    Moreover, for what concern the practice of suicide bombing, Dr. Abdel-Samie Mahmoud Ibrahim Moussa openly expressed his open solidarity with Hamas and with al-Qa'idah's militiamen in Chechnya, and stated that he considers as acceptable according to Islamic law the deeds of those kamikazes who commit suicide in order to assassinate innocent civilians.

    Sheikh Hamed Bitawi, chairman of the Palestine Religious Scholars Association "That which befell the infidel nations will also occur to the State of Israel. We are certain that Allah will destroy the State of Israel either through natural disasters, such as an earthquake, or at the hands of the Moslems,

    The new Imam of the Grand Mosque of Rome, the largest in Europe, called for the "victory of Islamic fighters in Palestine, Cechnya and other areas of the world" in his sermon Friday, June 6. He called for Allah's help in "the destruction of the homes and destruction of the enemies of Islam". He called for their "annihilation" and "the victory everywhere of the Nation of Islam."
    O God, destroy the usurper Jews, the vile Crusaders, and infidels, the US, its allies
    Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, support those supporting Islam and disappoint those who disappoint Muslims. O God, support mujahidin everywhere." He goes on: "O God, destroy Islam's enemies, shake the ground under them, instill panic into their hearts, and freeze blood in their veins."

    Shaykh Abd-al-Rahim Abdah Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, elevate justice and Islam, and disappoint infidels and criminals." He goes on: "O God, destroy Muslims' enemies, for they are within your power." The imam then urges Muslims to close their ranks in the face of current dangers in order to defend their faith, calling on members of the Palestinian Legislative Council to be careful when trying to endorse any draft law conflicting with Islamic law.

    Shaykh Ibrahim al-Mudayris delivers the sermon Concluding, the imam prays to God: "O God, punish our enemies. O God, destroy those who have harmed us. O God, destroy those who harm Muslims. O God, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O God, destroy the United States and its allies."

    Shaykh Salih Al Talib delivers the sermon Stressing that Islam "is a perfect religion," the imam assails "some hypocrites" working against Islam and Muslims "O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, destroy Islam's enemies, and grant safety to this country and to the other Islamic countries. O God, support your religion, your Prophet's traditions, and your faithful servants. O God, support those supporting Islam and disappoint tyrants, unbelievers, the corrupt, and hypocrites. O God, support mujahidin fighting for your sake everywhere. O God, support Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere. O God, destroy the Jews, for they are within your power. O God, destroy them and their supporters. O God, protect us from their evils.

    So you see, The Rabbi's who have embarassed the Jewish nation with harsh words not reflected by the mainstreem are regarded as the idiots they are. However I can find thousands apon thousands of sermons and quotes which are spewed by Islamic religious and political leaders, who are supported by the mainstreem Islam.

  31. #31
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    Ignorance is ignorance there are no degrees of it. I see it on both sides. And I see it in my own religion.

  32. #32
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    the reason why muslims allow suicide bombing agianst israeli adults is becuase in israel one a person reaches the age of 18 they can be drafted in to the millitry.
    becuase israel has an active millitry draft for men and women over the age of 18.

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    That is a stupid reason and no justification Physio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    the reason why muslims allow suicide bombing agianst israeli adults is becuase in israel one a person reaches the age of 18 they can be drafted in to the millitry.
    becuase israel has an active millitry draft for men and women over the age of 18.
    Well that’s truly some sick perverted crap. So then with your own logic I might conclude that since Palestinian kids grow up to be militants and suicide bombers it’s OK to intentionally murder a Palestinian child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    That is a stupid reason and no justification Physio.
    so its not okay for muslims to attack reserve soldiers and conscripts?

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    Not if they are not active. We have reservists that serve one weekend a month and go home to their families. You think it's okay to kill that guy ouside his home when he is off duty? I feel rage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Well that’s truly some sick perverted crap. So then with your own logic I might conclude that since Palestinian kids grow up to be militants and suicide bombers it’s OK to intentionally murder a Palestinian child.
    um no.
    stop trying to divert and twist the subject.

    when an israeli is over the age of 18 they can be called into the army and are called into the army.

    every women has to serve about 2 years and every man has to serve 3 years.

    youre a jew/israeli you should know that israel has an active millitry draft.

    most of the iraeli millitry s made up of reserve soldiers that have been drafted from the genral population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Not if they are not active. We have reservists that serve one weekend a month and go home to their families. You think it's okay to kill that guy ouside his home when he is off duty? I feel rage.
    the israli don;t train in the millitry.

    they serve in the millitry and the occuaption.

    they fight in palestine.

    the fight and oppress the palestinians.


    the israelis fight in the millitry aginst palestine.

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    what you people don't get is the israealis fight against the palestinians and then go home and dress in civillian clothing and then expect to be treated like civillians.

    nearly all of israel is apart of the idf israeli millitry.
    the israli millitry is occupying palestine.
    every israeli who is part of the occupation is a millitry target.

  40. #40
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    If they are active soldiers then they are not reserve that is a contradiction.

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