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  1. #1
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    Possibility of new hostility betwen russia and usa?

    read this 2 articles

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5951331/

    and the one below


    The Eternal Value of Autocracy
    Created: 09.09.2004 16:31 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 16:31 MSK, 6 hours 34 minutes ago

    Fyodor Lukyanov

    Gazeta.Ru

    Differences in the interpretation of the Beslan hostage drama by Russia and the West could well drive a wedge between the two sides, reducing relations to their lowest point since the demise of the Soviet empire.

    Vladimir Putin’s meeting with western journalists and policy experts was supposed to crown the long-planned international conference entitled ’Russia at the Turn of the Century: Hopes and Realities,’ held under the aegis of RIA-Novosti and the Council for Foreign and Defense Policy.

    In the wake of the tragic events in Beslan the routine event turned into a political event of international importance, likely to play a crucial role in shaping Moscow’s future relations with the leading Western capitals.

    Many delegates admitted they had been most impressed not by what Putin said at the conference, but how he said it — confidently, vigorously, with conviction.

    In the course of Putin’s presidency Russia’s relationship with the West has seen several stages. By the beginning of his second term in office it became clear that no legal or ideological integration of Russia into the western world, so much hoped for in 1990s, had taken place.

    Due to various reasons the European choice, declared a decade ago and reiterated with Putin’s advent to the Kremlin was never implemented. On the contrary, the socio-political model of modern Russia is moving further and further from western, especially European, patterns, representing a mixture of tradition of Russian autocracy, far-eastern concepts of authoritarian modernization and individual elements of liberal democracy.

    Whether the western state system could triumph in Russia in late 20th and the early 21st centuries is another matter for discussion. One way or another, it has never happened.

    Quite recently western partners actively sought to contribute to Russia’s transformation, but now they have restrained their ardor. At any rate, the first half of this year saw changes in the relations between Russia and the European Union, relations in which the humanitarian component has hitherto prevailed.

    The parties switched from the bickering caused by differences in interpretation of democracy and human rights issues to a practical bargaining on more specific issues of interaction. In relations with the US that change occurred even earlier when Bush famously “looked into Putin’s eyes” in Ljubljana, and then Putin decisively supported Bush in the wake of 9/11.

    Moscow, on its part, hailed the transfer to a new form of relationship, which suggested that the Russian state would guarantee that the West’s key desires, first and foremost, oil and gas, would be satisfied, while Russia’s internal affairs would be none of its western partners’ business. Actually, that model is quite viable and has been successfully tested with many countries.

    However, the issue of ’values’ is again being raised; moreover, this time it is Russia that is set to initiate the discussion.

    Regardless of the monstrosity of the latest terror attack in Russia, neither the US nor Europe seem to have revised their approach to the beginnings and instigators of the Caucasian conflict. It is hardly a coincidence that EU officials are so insistently demanding an explanation from Moscow.

    The more terrible the actions of the terrorists, the more convinced is the West that Russia must revise its Chechnya policy seen in the West as the root of all Russia’s tragedies.

    Russia, on the contrary — not only the leadership but also most ordinary Russians — sees the Beslan drama as the final blow to the idea of talks with the leaders of the self-proclaimed independent Ichkerian republic.

    And this is a question of ’values’, as Vladimir Putin told his foreign guests at his residence in Novoogaryovo: child-killers and their accomplices have lost their right to anything.

    The differences in interpretation of the events in Beslan by Russia and the West are likely to sow the deepest discord between Russia and the West since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    It is no secret that many members of our political establishment still view Russia as a great power, encircled by enemies.

    Putin’s vague allusions to those who incite terrorists, included in his address to the nation, were reiterated in Novoogaryovo. The president rebuked the West for regular meetings with leaders of the Chechen underground and its unwillingness to call them murderers.

    The response came the next day. Richard Boucher, spokesman for the State Department, pledged the US would continue meeting Chechen separatists, noting that the US’ views on certain ’political figures’ differs from that of Russia.

    This statement paves the way for a strengthening of positions by Moscow ideologists who have long been calling for the erection of ’Fortress Russia’.

    Is the transition to the ’pragmatic’ model mentioned above possible in this situation? Basically, yes, even more so as our establishment is by no means ready to sever ties with the West completely. Admittedly, that model only works provided it is based on the authorities’ ability to ensure stability.

    Destabilization casts doubt on the basis of any interaction.

    In the course of a decade of the Chechen war we have seen many terrible incidents, and yet those were individual acts perpetrated at lengthy time intervals, not connected with one another directly. Today Russia faces a large-scale campaign, with one blow following another.

    A real terrorist war is, for instance, what has been unleashed more than once since the early 1970s by Palestinian extremists or the fighters of Irish Republican Army in the early 1970s and 1980s. Something similar, although on a lesser scale, happened in Germany in the late 1970s, where left-wing radicals sent shockwaves across the country.

    This is a durability test both for the state and society, while no one in Russia seems ready to undergo that test, of which much has already been said and written. It is worth adding that the inability to rein in the terrorists will also disrupt the country’s foreign policy.

  2. #2
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    how can western countrys grant asylum to Chechen terrorists? Imagine if russia granted asylum to bin ladin and his cronies.

    what kind of bull**** "war on terror" is the usa waging when they dont support russias struggle with the chechens?? Condaming some terrorists while protecting others...

  3. #3
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    The only western country that would do that is CANADA!!!!! They have been doing it for years now, To the U.S. and everyone else.

    That article is a bunch of crap. If anything Russia will now be cooperative in the U.N. now. That was a very dumb move for the terrorist to make the U.S. and Russia have a common enemy!!!

    You really believe that the Muslim terrorist suceeded in driving a wedge between Russia and the U.S.????

  4. #4
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    If the US and Russia cannot reconcile their positions on Chechnya, I don't see this becoming a joint war. Actually, even if we do reconcile, the Russians have their own terrorists in house. I just don't see them saying, "Right, who are we after now?" They are going to conduct their own war to satisfy their own agenda.

    I asked on a previous thread, why won't Russia let Chechnya go? Causasian responded it was due to oil. I remember hearing that there was more oil in the Caucauses than in the middle east, there's just the problem of getting it out. Now I would like to ask "Why does Chechnya want independence?" It's too bad we don't have any Russians posting here to provide a counter point.

    chance

  5. #5
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Well its totally wrong to compare Bin Laden and his crew to the Chechans and their fighters.

    The Chechans are an internal Russian problem, since at this time "Chechnya" is a part of Russia.

    People should compare Chechan terrorists with ETA terrorists within Spain, who are seeking a Basque state within Spain itself.

    The Chechans, The Ingush, and the Dagestanis want independence because we are not Russian. Russian is not our native tounge, and Sunni Islam is our religion, not Orthodox Christianity.

    We are and have been a totally different people, since the advent of recorded history.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 09-09-2004 at 08:31 PM.

  6. #6
    OGPackin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Well its totally wrong to compare Bin Laden and his crew to the Chechans and their fighters.

    The Chechans are an internal Russian problem, since at this time "Chechnya" is a part of Russia.

    People should compare Chechan terrorists with ETA terrorists within Spain, who are seeking a Basque state within Spain itself.

    The Chechans, The Ingush, and the Dagestanis want independence because we are not Russian. Russian is not our native tounge, and Sunni Islam is our religion, not Orthodox Christianity.

    We are and have been a totally different people, since the advent of recorded history.

    Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

    Terrorist - characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities


    Yup. Id say that pretty much decribes the Chechans! Caus, u must be real proud ur Chechan terrorist brothers were able to kill so many innocent Russian children...

    OG

  7. #7
    chances is offline Associate Member
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    Your comparison to ETA is the way I view the Russia/Chechnya conflict. I know Putin made that comparison, but I would never make that comparison. Although, it wouldn't surprise me to find Chechans in al Qaeda.

    I really need to learn more about this. Causasian, can you recommend a web site where I can read about the history of the fight between the Chechans and Russians?

    chance

  8. #8
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

    Terrorist - characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities


    Yup. Id say that pretty much decribes the Chechans! Caus, u must be real proud ur Chechan terrorist brothers were able to kill so many innocent Russian children...

    OG
    There are Chechans that are fighters and there are Chechans that are terrorists.

    Chechans have waged a successful guerilla war in Chechnya proper killing thousands of Russian soldiers.

    And there are some factions that have commited terrorism.

    I dont agree with killing of civilians of any kind. Its unislamic in my view.

  9. #9
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chances
    Your comparison to ETA is the way I view the Russia/Chechnya conflict. I know Putin made that comparison, but I would never make that comparison. Although, it wouldn't surprise me to find Chechans in al Qaeda.

    I really need to learn more about this. Causasian, can you recommend a web site where I can read about the history of the fight between the Chechans and Russians?

    chance
    There are alot of Chechans that have trained with Al Queda. Today in Pakistan they killed 50 people, mostly Chechans and Uzbeks.

    At one time Stalin deported the entire Chechan population to Kazhazistan, although 1/3 died along the way, there is a huge population of Chechens there. And we Chechans are a really aggressive people, and love to fight, since the beginning. That is why Uzbeks and Al Queda has recruited Chechans in Kazakhistan because we are good fighters.

    Here is a good site describing Russian-Chechan history. Although it is a Russian site I have read it and feel its unbaised.

    http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.php...storyeng&row=2

    And here is the home page

    http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.php?lng=eng

    And here is Chechan News

    http://www.kavkaz.org.uk/eng/

    They have videos of Chechans fighting Russian soldiers in this site, not terrorism.

  10. #10
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    And here is a new Video broadcast on Chechan Television, shows Chechan Dance, Chechan clothes, Chechan Music, Chechan Kids, the Chechan National Animal, and mostly War footage.

    http://video.kavkazcenter.com/clips/lezginka.wmv

  11. #11
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Thanks for the info CAUSASIAN..

    As regards the USA giving asylum to terrorists. The USA granted asylum to Mohammed Atta who had been convicted in an Israeli court of murder and directing terror in Israel. I'll give a gold star to the first person to tell me how Mohammed Atta thanked America.... Hint; 9/11

  12. #12
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Thanks for the info CAUSASIAN..

    As regards the USA giving asylum to terrorists. The USA granted asylum to Mohammed Atta who had been convicted in an Israeli court of murder and directing terror in Israel. I'll give a gold star to the first person to tell me how Mohammed Atta thanked America.... Hint; 9/11
    I cant even begin to grasp how brainwashed those people must be

  13. #13
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    You really believe that the Muslim terrorist suceeded in driving a wedge between Russia and the U.S.????
    I sure hope not. But imagine if russia had given asylum to anyone involved in 9/11 how would the states have reacted? what would bush have done?

    Now if(a big if I guess) the states or uk or any nato country is giving asylum to chechen terrorist then how do you think Putin and russia will react? What will they do??

    The world sure doesnt need to se any more hostility right now....

  14. #14
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    was chechen a part of the soviet union?

    Incase they where, why didnt they resist the ocupation back then? Or did they but nobody cared or reported about it? Did the soviet union keep it secret so they wouldnt look weak

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    was chechen a part of the soviet union?

    Incase they where, why didnt they resist the ocupation back then? Or did they but nobody cared or reported about it? Did the soviet union keep it secret so they wouldnt look weak
    They did resist, read your history, we were the first warriors against the plague of Communism. Stalin deported the Chechan population because we were fighting and rebeling against his government.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Thanks for the info CAUSASIAN..

    As regards the USA giving asylum to terrorists. The USA granted asylum to Mohammed Atta who had been convicted in an Israeli court of murder and directing terror in Israel. I'll give a gold star to the first person to tell me how Mohammed Atta thanked America.... Hint; 9/11
    Zionist Propoganda

    Initially, Mohammed Atta's identity was confused with that of a native Jordanian, Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta, who bombed a bus in 1986 on the Israel-controlled West Bank, killing one and severely injuring three. Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta, a naturalized US citizen, was subsequently deported from Venezuela to the United States, extradited to Israel, tried and sentenced to life in prison. The Israeli supreme court later invalidated his extradition and set him free; his whereabouts are unknown. He is 14 years older than Mohammed Atta. After the September 11 attacks, a general furor arose over the supposed failure of immigration authorities and the US intelligence community to stop a known terrorist from entering the country under his true name. Eventually, the Boston Globe factually reported details from records at the US Circuit Court of Appeals detailing the detention and subsequent extradition of Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta from the US.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta

  17. #17
    Doc M's Avatar
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    Maybe you have answered this before Causasian, but how do you speak and write such proper and correct English grammar?? Your sentence structure and punctuation is better then most of the other American members on here..What's the story?

    Doc M

  18. #18
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    great post!

  19. #19
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc M
    Maybe you have answered this before Causasian, but how do you speak and write such proper and correct English grammar?? Your sentnece structure and punctuation is better then most of the other American memebrs on here..What's the story?

    Doc M
    Thanks.

    But I am lucky, I studied in Western Schools, like France, US, Finland, and a catholic school in Jordan.

    After I was like 13-14 I left Chechnya, and visit Chechnya for about 3 months every year.

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc M
    Maybe you have answered this before Causasian, but how do you speak and write such proper and correct English grammar?? Your sentence structure and punctuation is better then most of the other American members on here..What's the story?

    Doc M
    for some reson alot of muslims especially from specific countries can speak,read,write and talk in many languages and most of them are educated in many languages before they are even 6 years old.

    look at iraq for example even though they can't speak alot of english most people do have a basic grasp of english.

    i myself can understand read, write and speak English and can speak Punjabi and Urdu also i can read Arabic and have basic understanding of Hindi in movies and tv programs but i can't speak Hindi.

  21. #21
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    I speak Russian, Serbo-Croatian, Albanian, English, Chechen fluently.

    I can read and write in Arabic but dont understand it. I can understand Urdu.

    I can have a conversation with a Spanish, Italian, and French person well.

    I really want to learn German, and Farsi.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 09-11-2004 at 11:09 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    i myself can understand read, write and speak English and can speak Punjabi and Urdu also i can read Arabic and have basic understanding of Hindi in movies and tv programs but i can't speak Hindi.
    I always thought Urdu and Hindi are basically the same language. With Urdu being written in the Arabic script and Hindi in the Sanskrit skript.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I always thought Urdu and Hindi are basically the same language. With Urdu being written in the Arabic script and Hindi in the Sanskrit skript.
    your thinking of indian version of urdu.
    hindi is not really different from urdu it does contain some of the same words of urdu and some words from punjabi and contains some others.
    if you can understand urdu you should be able to grasp the language with only a few lessons.
    http://www.geocities.com/sikmirza/ar...industani.html

    in the movies a universal or pakistan style urdu is used but when indians speak they will usally speak slightly different to that of the bollywood movies.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Thanks.

    But I am lucky, I studied in Western Schools, like France, US, Finland, and a catholic school in Jordan.

    After I was like 13-14 I left Chechnya, and visit Chechnya for about 3 months every year.
    How did you like Finland? You should have studied in one of the more beautifull scandinavian countries like sweden or norway

  25. #25
    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I speak Russian, Serbo-Croatian, Albanian, English, Chechen fluently.

    I can read and write in Arabic but dont understand it. I can understand Urdu.

    I can have a conversation with a Spanish, Italian, and French person well.

    I really want to learn German, and Farsi.
    i have seen a dvd/vcd of a language tutor of arabic available from pakistan and that should be ok but i have never tried it.

    in england you can learn arabic and how to read the quran from british digital satellite channels like the "islam channel" and "ARY" they will both teach arabic on a daily basis. and ive also started to watch cctv which teaches people to speak chinese hopefully i can learn enough to have a conversion in chinese but i want to learn the cantonese version.

    my dad can speak some farsi they use that language in iran and its one of the foriegn languages thaught to my dad when he used to go to school.

  26. #26
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    and ive also started to watch cctv which teaches people to speak chinese hopefully i can learn enough to have a conversion in chinese but i want to learn the cantonese version.
    I belive Chinese is the hardest language there is to learn and speak.

    Finland is a beautiful place, I like the pace of life and the people. But the culuture and life is not my style.

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