Thread: A Religion CANNOT Be Blamed !
09-10-2004, 10:51 AM #1
A Religion CANNOT Be Blamed !
just startung this thread to clearify n acknowledge the fact that , religion itself whether it be Judaisim , Christianity , Islam .......... are just guidance from the divine to move people in the direction of peace , but this is not the case today ! and through history also ........... for e.g
if u were given a curiculum to follow , in order to attain a successful result in your class , then half of us would do as what is demanded , in order to pass , and half of us prolly dont even give it second thought hence the deviators !
just like that in the complexity of religions , the man had corrupted n twisted the knowledge for his own personal vandetta , and when that happens , and something bad happens , religions are the ones to get bolded n blamed ....... for i think people who deviate from their religion and commit sins in the name of their religion , are basically deviating form the original message , and basically denouncing their own humanity ......... but i just cant get over how , stereotyped approach has developed , for i have not read in the BIBLE or the Quran , that GOD demands these astrocities for his chosen people ..........
for we have made this world a living HELL for ourselves and basically no one really is to blame , when God created evil he created good , to make the distinction .......... and till evil exists , there will be war n sadness ....... and this is the system of the world , and through all this mainstream , whoever wish to be saved will be saved cause they will always follow the right path , THE REST CAN GO FIGHT IN WHATEVER THEY BELEIVE IN , cause they are only fooling themselves in the NEAR END ! ............ thx for listening , would like to see some feedback in this thread !
09-10-2004, 11:03 AM #2
I agree.....evil is from people letting their other mind get control.....people of God should strive to do the right thing.......deviates twist the sayings of God to fit their evil minds so they have justification to continue their wrong behavior......hence wrongs like the crusades.......continued persecution of the Palestinians.......
09-10-2004, 11:08 AM #3
Zoab, Well said!
09-10-2004, 11:14 AM #4Originally Posted by Badgerman
You are using the pretext of this thread to justify Ill will regarding an issue you feel strongly about. Palestinians chose to go down the road to doom when they left the negotiating table, this has nothing to do with religion, or the twisting there of. Its a land issue. However you are correct in that other Muslims and Arabs are trying to turn it into a religious issue, its the only way they feel justified in getting involved.
09-10-2004, 11:43 AM #5
sure it can.
09-10-2004, 11:47 AM #6
Okay DF you are probably for gun control too aren't you?
09-10-2004, 12:16 PM #7Associate Member
Originally Posted by Badgerman
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09-10-2004, 12:51 PM #8Originally Posted by singern
09-10-2004, 01:39 PM #9
i dont think that religion can be directly blamed, but i think the dogma that is created as beliefs get passed from one generation to another can. i think the core concept of religion, regardless of what religion, is a beautiful thing. but, in the end it becomes so twisted and warped that the original sentiment is lost.
09-10-2004, 02:07 PM #10
SIN! I MISSED YOU! Too true, whenever man gets involved in anything it invariably gets screwed up in the end.
09-10-2004, 02:25 PM #11Originally Posted by 1victor
09-10-2004, 02:27 PM #12
Boring but I'm doing okay thanks. Man could screw up anything even with the best intentions, we are seriously flawed creatures IMO.
09-10-2004, 03:02 PM #13Originally Posted by 1victor
09-10-2004, 03:09 PM #14
Islam isnt a peacefull religion. Muhammed converted followers by the sword. The problem is the Terrorists are looked at by many others in islam to be freedom fighters,jihadist or what ever. Its the equivilant to how christians look up to missionarys. The Terrorists are considered to be the most devoted to God by many.
here are some of the peacefull things Muhammed spoke of.
5. And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters** wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free. Surely, ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
191. And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
75. Let those then fight in the cause of Allah who would sell the present life for the Hereafter. And whoso fights in the cause of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, We shall soon give him a great reward.
85. Fight, therefore, in the way of Allah-thou art not made responsible except for thyself-and urge on the believers to fight. It may be that Allah will restrain the might of those that disbelieve; and Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
29. Fight those from among the People of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.
09-10-2004, 03:46 PM #15Originally Posted by Anhydro78
i am sorry but i have to totally disagree , but basically this is the major ignorancy some people display , when reading the Quran , first all of these verses were brought down to Muhammed (pbuh)when he was being attacked by the idol worshipers and jews together , and so these verses were revealed to him to let the beleivers know GOD is on their side , just like how GOD promised the jews in the torah , to fight in his way ........... and they shall be rewarded .................
and where the word comes to spreading islam on the power of sword that is a huge exaggeration , since when Muhammed took Mecca back form the idol worshipers , he came in the city and told all the soldiers not to even touch one tree to any human , or house and nothign will be demolished , and the KABBA will be the holy mosque for the believers and those who want to join more welcome and who dont wont have to do anything ...... but taxes will be implied on them to pay what is the right of the ruling government to have ............ plus also in history when islam spread through europe and so did the empire , yes there were wars with the unbelievers , just like the CRUSADES ............ but when the muslim rule was establishjed , chruches and sinogogues were allowed ot be left alone and let who ever worship in their leave them in peace ................. i am sorry but ANHYDRO , i can challenge to give me one historic fact where its proven islam was spread on the tip of the sword . thx
09-10-2004, 03:48 PM #16
Where does the prejudice that Islam spread by force of the sword lie?
Most of Western writers, especially under the influence of the Church, have never failed to accuse Islam of spreading by force of the sword. The causes of this prejudice lie mainly in the fact that the spread of Islam has often occurred at the expense of Christianity. While Islam has for centuries obtained numerous conversions from Christianity without much effort or organized missionary activities, Christianity has almost never been able to achieve conversions from Islam in spite of sophisticated means and well-organized missionary activities, and it has always been at a disadvantage in its competition with Islam for fourteen centuries. This has caused its missionaries and most of the orientalists to develop a complex within themselves by depicting Islam and introducing it as a regressive, vulgar religion of savage peoples. (John Cogley, Religion of Secular Age; Muhammad Asad, The Road to Mecca) The same attitude has unfortunately maintained toward the Holy Prophet of Islam. This is clear in the confessions of some unbiased writers of the West: According to P. Bayle,
Muslims, according to the principles of their faith, are under an obligation to use force for the purpose of bringing other religions to ruin (probably he means Jihad which is not for the purpose he suggests-T.F.U.); yet, in spite of that, they have been tolerating other religions for some centuries past. The Christians have not been given orders to do anything but preach and instruct, yet, despite this, from time immemorial they have been exterminating by fire and sword all those who are not of their religion.. We may feel certain that if Western Christians, instead of the Saracens and the Turks, had won the dominion over Asia, there would be today not a trace left of the Greek Church, and that they would never have tolerated Muhammadanism as the 'infidels' have tolerated Christianity there. We (Christians) enjoy the fine advantage of being far better versed than others in the art of killing, bombarding and exterminating the Human Race." (Bayle P., Dictionary, 'the article Mahomed', 1850)
To what is Islam indebted its unequaled spread?
Islam is indebted its unequaled spread to its religious content and values, which is confessed by all objective Western intellectuals:
Many have sought to answer the questions of why the triumph of Islam was so speedy and complete? Why have so many millions embraced the religion of Islam and scarcely a hundred ever recanted? Why do a thousand Christians become Muslims to one Muslim who adopts Christianity? Some have attempted to explain the first overwhelming success of Islam by the argument of the Sword. They forget Carlyle's laconic reply. First get your sword. You must win men's hearts before you can induce them to imperil their lives for you; and the first conquerors of Islam must have been made Muslims before they were made fighters on the Path of God. Others allege the low morality of the religion and the sensual paradise it promises as a sufficient cause for the zeal of its followers: but even were these admitted to the full, no religion has ever gained a lasting hold upon the souls of men by the force of its sensual permissions and fleshy promises...
In all these explanations the religion itself is left out of the question. Decidedly, Islam itself was the main cause for its triumph. Islam not only was at once accepted (by many peoples and races) by Arabia, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Northern Africa and Spain, at its first outburst; but, with the exception of Spain, it has never lost its vantage ground; it has been spreading ever since it came into being. Admitting the mixed causes that contributed to the rapidity of the first swift spread of Islam, they do not account for the duration of Islam. There must be something in the religion itself to explain its persistence and spread, and to account for its present hold over so large of a proportion of the dwellers on the eath... Islam has stirred an enthusiasm that has never been surpassed. Islam has had its martyrs, its self-tormentors, its recluses, who have renounced all that life offered and have accepted death with a smile for the sake of the faith that was in them. (Stanley Lane-Poole, Study in a Mosque, pp.86-89)
A. J. Arberry has also pointed out that the reason for the spread of Islam is Islam itself and its religious values. (Aspects of Islamic Civilization, p.12) He states:
The rapidity of the spread of Islam, noticeably through extensive provinces which had been long Christian, is a crucial fact of history.. The sublime rhetoric of the Quran, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy". (M. Pickhtal, The Meaning of the Glorious Quran, p.vii)
This, and the urgency of the simple message carried, holds the key to the mystery of one of the greatest catalysms in the history of religion. When all military, political and economic factors have been exhausted, the religious impulse must still be recognized as the most vital and enduring.
Brockelman, who is usually very unsympathetic and partial, also recognizes the religious values of Islam as the main factor for the spread of Islam. (History of the Islamic Peoples, p.37) Rosenthal makes his point as follows:
The more important factor for the spread of Islam is religious law of Islam (Sharia which is an inclusive, all-embracing, all-comprehensive way of thinking and living) which was designed to cover all manifestations of life. (Political Thought in Medieval Islam, p.21)
09-10-2004, 03:49 PM #17
The exemplary life-style of Muslim individuals
Besides many other reasons which are responsible for the spread of Islam, it is the exemplary life-style and unceasing efforts of individual Muslims to transmit the message of Islam throughout the world which lie at the root of the conquest of the hearts by Islam. Islamic universalism is closely associated with the principle of Amr bi'l-ma'ruf (enjoining the good) for Islam is to be spread by Muslims by means of Amr bi'l-ma'ruf. This principle seeks to convey the message of Islam to all human beings in the world and to establish a model Islamic community on a world-wide basis. The Islamic community is introduced by the Quran as a model community: "Thus, We have made of you an Ummah justly balanced, that you might be witnesses (models) for the peoples, and the Messenger has been a witness for you." (The Quran, 2:143) A Muslim or the Muslim community as a whole thus has a goal to achieve: This is the spread of Islam, conveying the truth to the remotest corners of the world, the eradication of oppression and tyranny and the establishment of justice all over the world. This requires the Muslim to live an examplary life, and thus the moral and ethical values of Islam have usually played an important part in the spread of Islam. Here follow the impressions of the influence of Islamic ethics on black Africans had by a Western writer of the nineteenth century:
How does Islam change the peoples that have accepted it?
As to the effects of Islam when first embraced by a Negro tribe, can there, when viewed as a whole, be any reasonable doubt? Polytheism disappears almost instantaneously; sorcery, with its attendant evils, gradually dies away; human sacrifice becomes a thing of the past. The general moral elevation is most marked; the natives begin for the first time in their history to dress, and that neatly. Squalid filth is replaced by some approach to personal cleanliness; hospitality becomes a religious duty; drunkenness, instead of the rule, becomes a comparatively rare exception...chastity is looked upon as one of the highest, and becomes, in fact, one of the commoner virtues. It is idleness that henceforward degrades, and industry that elevates, instead of the reverse. Offences are henceforward measured by a written code instead of the arbitrary caprice of a chieftain - a step, as everyone will admit, of vast importance in the progress of a tribe. The Mosque gives an idea of architecture at all events higher than any the Negro has yet had. A thirst for literature is created and that for works of science and philosophy as well as for commentaries on the Quran. (Quoted from Waitz by B. Smith, Muhammad and Muhammadanism, pp.42-43)
The tolerance of Islam
The tolerance of Islam is another factor in the spread of Islam. Toynbee praises this tolerance towards the Peoples of the Book after comparing it with the attitude of the Christians towards Muslims and Jews in their lands. (A Historian's Approach to Religion, p.246) T. Link attributes the spread of Islam to the credibility of its principles together with its tolerance, persuasion and other kinds of attractions. (A History of Religion) Makarios, Orthodox Patriorch of Antioch in the seventeenth century, compared the harsh treatment received by the Russians of the Orthodox Church at the hands of the Roman Catholic Poles with the tolerant attitude towards Orthodox christians shown by the Ottoman Government and prayed for the Sultans. (T. Link, A History of Religion)
This is not the only example of preference by the followers of the religions for Muslim rule over that of their own co-religionists. The Orthodox Christians of Byzantium openly expressed their preference for the Ottoman turban in Istanbul to the hats of the Catholic cardinals. Elisee Reclus, the French traveller of the nineteenth century, wrote that the Muslim Turks allowed all the followers of different religions to perform their religious duties and rituals, and that the Christian subjects of the Ottoman Sultan were more free to live their own lives than the Christians who lived in the lands under the rule of any rival Christian sect. (Nouvelle Geographie Universelle, Vol. IX) Popescu Ciocanel pays tribute to the Muslim Turks by stating that it was luck for the Romanian people that they lived under the government of the Turks rather than the domination of the Russians and Austrians. Otherwise, he points out, "no trace of the Romanian nation would have remained." (La Crise de L'Orient}
How did Muslims behave towards the people of the conquered lands?
The Muslim's attitude towards the people of the conquered lands is quite clear in the instructions given by the rightly-guided Caliphs:
Always keep fear of God in your mind; remember that you cannot afford to do anything without His grace. Do not forget that Islam is a mission of peace and love. Keep the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) before you as a model of bravery and piety. Do not destroy fruit-trees nor fertile fields in your paths. Be just, and spare the feelings of the vanguished. Respect all religious persons who live in hermitages or convents and spare their edifices. Do not kill civilians. Do not outrage the chastity of women and the honour of the conquered. Do not harm old people and children. Do not accept any gifts from the civil population of any place. Do not billet your soldiers or officers in the houses of civilians. Do not forget to perform your daily prayers. Fear God. Remember that death will inevitably come to everyone of you some time or other, even if you are thousands of miles away from a battle field; therefore be always ready to face death. (Andrew Miller, Church History; Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Nahj al-Balagha)
A historical episode which Balazuri, a famous Muslim historian, tells about how pleased the native peoples were with their Muslim conquerors is of great significance:
When Heraclius massed his troops against the Muslims, and the Muslims heard that they were coming to meet them, they refunded the inhabitants of Hims the tribute they had taken from them, saying: "We are too busy to support and protect you. Take care of yourselves." But the people of Hims replied: "We like your rule and justice far better than the state of oppression and tyranny in which we were. The army of Heraclius we shall indeed, with your help, repulse from the city." The Jews rose and said: "We swear by the Torah, no governor of Heraclius shall enter the city of Hims unless we are first vanguished and exhausted." Saying this, they closed the gates of the city and guarded them. The inhabitants of other cities - Christians and Jews- that had been capitulated did the same. When by God's help the unbelievers were defeated and Muslims won, they opened the gates of their cities, went out with the singers and players of music, and paid the tribute. (Futuh al-Buldan)
Abu'l-Fazl Izzeti, An Introduction to the History of the Spread of Islam, London,1976 (frequently quoted).
Abdurrahman Ahmad, Garbin Islam'dan Ogrendikleri (Turkish trans.) Istanbul
Davud Dursun, Osmanli Devletinde Siyaset ve Din, Istanbul,1989
Balazuri, Futuh al-Buldan, Istanbul,1965
Edward Said, Oryantalizm (Turkish trans.) Istanbul,1983
Mustafa Fayda, Hz. Omer Zamaninda Gayr-i Muslimler,1989
Imam Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, Istanbul,1973
Sayid Qutb, Islam'da Sosyal Adalet (Turkish trans.) 1980
A.Hasan al-Mas'udi, Muruj adh-Dhahab, Cairo,1964
Shibli Numani, Butun Yonleriyle Hz. Omer ve Devlet Idaresi (Turkish trans.)1975
I.Jarir al-Tabari, Milletler ve Hukumdarlar Tarihi (Turkish trans) 1955
Osman Turan, Selcuklular Tarihi ve Turk-Islam Medeniyeti, 1969
Huseyin Algul, Islam Tarihi, Istanbul,1987
09-10-2004, 03:59 PM #18
BY THE WAY , look into TIME magazine june 1996 issure , there was an article relaying how fast ISLAM is spreading in USA , and now is the fastest growing religion in the world ! .............
here is a CNN exclusive on the topic
09-10-2004, 04:15 PM #19
now if u read these verses , they pretty much looks as to how VIOLENT christianity really is , maybe it will make u see both sides of the coin .......... (ANHYDRO)
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Holy Quran for their own goals. (Please read The Quran on War, peace and Justice) But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga****es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)
“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them. Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine - but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. Such spirit needs to be reciprocated.
09-10-2004, 04:22 PM #20
lol. what does that have to do with anything? um, gun control? no im not but i do think we need something besides the brady.
Originally Posted by 1victor
09-10-2004, 04:25 PM #21
muslim? if so, then the whole reason you started this thread was to take some of the heat off the islam nutjobs. yes, christianity has been brutal but, this day and age i dont hear about too many christians bombing,beheading, etc etc etc in the name of their religion. now, before this goes any further i am stating my opinion so dont start blasting me cause it will not solve anything and you started the thread so...............
Originally Posted by ZOAIB
09-10-2004, 04:26 PM #22
Well intolerence of religion is very much on the rise. Soon all religion is to be banned they have already started this in France and Russia and Now Britian is calling for the UN to have greater power very much a sign of us being in the final days!!!
09-10-2004, 04:27 PM #23
true! but, if they start acting all crazy and **** like the ones across the way then you will see folks rounded up and shipped out or into camps. gurantee!
Originally Posted by ZOAIB
09-10-2004, 05:02 PM #24Originally Posted by DF2003
the above posts were in response to ANHYDRO'S statement , basically
09-10-2004, 05:08 PM #25Associate Member
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You're right ZOAIB. It's extremism in any religion that gets the rest in trouble. It's like too much of a good thing is not good for you.
09-10-2004, 05:18 PM #26
ok. but i beleive its totally up to the "good children" to not hang out with the " bad children". lol. bad analogy. example: muslims should be kicking the extremists ass and killing them off instead of having the rest of the world clean up their mess. by them not standing up to ben ladin and the others it basically says to me that they agree with and support him. now untill i see otherwise im going to keep thinking they are all screwy and crazy! and im not saying all other relegions are sane but c'mon now. whos going around calling who the "big satan" and kidnapping inncocent civilians,chopping their heads off? i would love to see all the guys that claim they wwant peace and say they arent with terrorism to stand up,point the ****ers out instead of just letting these cowards hide among them and use them and their families as shields cause they arent man enough! sorry, to go off subject and all but to me this is related.
Originally Posted by ZOAIB
09-10-2004, 05:21 PM #27
but yes, christianity has been historically very brutal. but some of those things were done by crazy ****ers that claimed they did it in the name of christianity just like these nutjob extrememists,terrorists,freedom fighters whatever.
09-10-2004, 08:07 PM #28Originally Posted by Bryan2
09-10-2004, 08:19 PM #29Originally Posted by sin
09-10-2004, 10:54 PM #30Originally Posted by ZOAIB
This is why its good to talk to someone that knows the background of the religion. If you wanted to know anything going on behind the senes with scripture in the Bible I can tell you all about it.
But you have to admit that these are the verses that radical clerics use to spead hatered though islam. Thats the only thing im getting at. All I know is when you logonto a radical islamic website these are the verses they use to try to better their cause. That is where I found these scriptures.
09-11-2004, 05:51 AM #31
DF, I'm so glad you asked. Religion and guns don't kill people..........people kill people.
1 an inanimate object (the gun) and 2 (philosphy) religion aren't capable of taking any actions.
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