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  1. #1
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    Christianity VS Any religion debate...Bring it. :) ZOAIB?

    Id like to discuss Christianity Vs. Another religion. I dont want to discuss on this thread the debate between nothing happening when we die vs. a religion. I only put you in the title ZOAIB because I think you are the only person I remember saying you were a religion that wasnt christianity. This thread is really open to all of course. And if you want to debate another religion, cool...Mormonism, I will debate that too...I dont believe Mormons are christians...unfortunately since they are growing so quickly.

    I dont have all the answers and Im sure whoever debates doesnt either, but it helps me learn more about other religions and hopefully show how they are wrong...and helps me learn more about christianity, forcing me to look things up I dont know. Dont take anything personal though and neither will I, and please no flames.

    I await..

    -Max

  2. #2
    sin's Avatar
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    any bets on how many posts there are before this thread gets out of control and is locked? ive got dibs on one page.

  3. #3
    NEED2BEHUGE's Avatar
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    Religion is the drug of the ignorant.

    One page sounds about right.

  4. #4
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    just wondering if christianity still believes that the earth is the center of the universe - is that written in the bible or was that just a made up belief - also wondering if christianity mentions the dinosaurs
    these are things i've always wondered

  5. #5
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    Geoneo, I have to go to work, so sorry for the short reply but wanted to throw out the references in the bible to Tanniyn, Behemoth, and Leviathan. Ill write more after work...


    later.

    max

  6. #6
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoneo
    just wondering if christianity still believes that the earth is the center of the universe - is that written in the bible or was that just a made up belief - also wondering if christianity mentions the dinosaurs
    these are things i've always wondered
    http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

    The author and site maker is a well known Islamic scholar.

    There is scientific proof behind his theories, not religious proof.

  7. #7
    zOaib's Avatar
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    "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel with them. He enjoins upon them that which is right and forbids for them that which is evil. He makes lawful for them all things that are good and prohibits for them all that is foul and he relieves them from their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, honor him, assist him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful"

    The noble Qur'an, Al-A'araf(7):157.

    Prophecy is Muhammed to come after jesus in the bible !

    6.1: Three distinct prophesies
    In the Bible we read of the test that the Jews applied to Jesus (pbuh) in order to ascertain his truthfulness. The Jews had a prophecy that required Elias to come before Jesus (pbuh):


    "Elias verily cometh first"

    Mark 9:12


    (also John 3:28). They had not seen Elias yet so they doubted the claim of Jesus (pbuh). Jesus, however, responded to them that Elias had already come but that they did not recognize him. In Matthew we read:


    "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not.........Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

    Matthew 17:12-13


    John, however refutes the claims of Jesus (pbuh). This is one of the Christian's "dark sayings of Jesus" that their scholars have tried to reconcile for centuries. We will leave this matter for them to work out among themselves (This matter is resolved in the Gospel of Barnabas. Please see chapter 7 for more).


    Now, in John we read


    "And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."

    John 1:19-21


    We notice that there are three distinct prophecies here: 1) Elias, 2) Jesus, 3) That prophet. The Jews were not waiting for two prophecies, but three. This can be further clarified by reading John:


    "And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

    a) not that Christ,

    b) nor Elias,

    c) neither that prophet?"

    John 1:25


    If "that prophet" were Jesus (pbuh) wouldn't the third question in both verses be redundant? Further, we must remember that "That prophet" can not apply to any prophet before the time of Jesus (pbuh) because at the time of Jesus (pbuh) the Jews were still waiting for all three. Notice how when we let the Bible speak for itself, without forcing the holy spirit or other supernatural meanings on it in the commentary, or forcing three questions to be only two, how clear these verses become. For much more evidence in this regard, please read chapter 7 regarding the Dead Sea Scroll prophesies of "two messiahs" and how the Jews who wrote the scrolls and who were waiting for the coming of Jesus (pbuh) clearly state in these scrolls that they were waiting for not one, but TWO messiahs, the first of which would be announced by an eschatological prophet.

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    Jesus Himself Predicts Of A Great Event After Him !

    In the Bible we can find the following four passages wherein Jesus (pbuh) predicts a great event:


    John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

    John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

    John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."


    In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (pbuh) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (pbuh), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.


    It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.


    All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.


    What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.


    John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".


    Is this just knit picking? "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit," what's the big deal? Obviously they both refer to the same thing. Right? Wrong! There is a big difference. A "spirit," according to the language of the Bible simply means "a prophet" See for instance:


    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,"

    1 John 4:1-3:


    also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human, for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.


    We have already exhibited in chapters one and two many documented cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded). It is, therefore, possible that either:


    1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or

    2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.


    Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done it's utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (pbuh).




    1) Christian scholars see evidence of tampering:

    In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote:


    "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit."

    The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135


    We are about to see some of the evidence that goes to prove this position.



    2) Does the Holy Spirit "speak" or "inspire":

    The Greek word translated as "hear" in the Biblical verses ("whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak") is the Greek word "akouo" {ak-oo'-o} meaning to perceive sounds. It has, for instance, given us the word "acoustics," the science of sounds. Similarly the verb "to speak" is the Greek verb "laleo" {lal-eh'-o} which has the general meaning "to emit sounds" and the specific meaning "to speak." This verb occurs very frequently in the Greek text of the Gospels. It designates a solemn declaration by Jesus (pbuh) during his preachings (For example Matthew 9:18). Obviously these verbs require hearing and speech organs in order to facilitate them. There is a distinct difference between someone "inspiring" something and him "speaking" something. So the Paraclete will "hear" and "speak," not "inspire."


    Muhammad (pbuh), as seen above, did indeed fulfill this prophesy. Whatsoever he "HEARD" from Gabriel (The Qur'an), the same did he physically "SPEAK" to his followers. In the Qur'an we read:


    "(God swears) By the star when it falls!: Your comrade (Muhammad) errs not, nor is he deceived; Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save a revelation that is revealed (unto him)."

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):1-4



    3) The Holy Ghost was already with them:

    In the above verses we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.


    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


    1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."


    "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

    1 Samuel 11:6


    "Then he remembered the days of old, moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"

    Isaiah 63:11


    "For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

    Luke 1:15


    "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

    Luke 1:35


    "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"

    Luke 1:41


    "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,"

    Luke 1:67


    "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

    Luke 2:25


    "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."

    Luke 2:26


    "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

    Luke 3:22


    "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."

    John 20:21-22


    Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (pbuh) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (pbuh) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (pbuh) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.



    4) Selective translation: Jesus (pbuh) too is a Paraclete:

    The word "Paraclete" is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself in 1 John 2:1


    "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

    1 John 2:1


    Notice how the translators have managed to translate this exact same word one way (advocate) in reference to Jesus (pbuh) and another (comforter) with regard to the coming "parakletos." Why would they want to do such a thing? The reason is that the translators did not want the Christians, after reading


    "we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"


    to then read


    "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)."


    Can we see why this would make them nervous?


    Well, what was Jesus (pbuh)? He was a prophet! Read:


    "...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

    Matthew 21:11


    and "..Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people"

    Luke 24:19:


    ...etc. (see more in section 1.2.3.12).


    Muhammad (pbuh) was also a prophet of God. We have already demonstrate in chapter one how the verses of the Bible themselves prove quite conclusively that Jesus (pbuh) was neither a god nor part of God Almighty, but an elect messenger of God. The concept of his divinity was concocted by Paul and his ministry during the first three centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh) and is explicitly refuted by the Bible itself and Jesus' apostles (see section 1.2.5).




    5) "Another" Paraclete:

    Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (pbuh) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (pbuh), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.


    Prof. Abdul-Ahad Dawud (formerly Rev. David Benjamin Keldani, Bishop of Uramia)* says:


    "The adjective 'another' preceding a foreign noun for the first time announced seems very strange and totally superfluous. There is no doubt that the text has been tampered with and distorted."

    Muhammad in the Bible, Prof. Abdul-`Ahad Dawud, p. 211


    "The Paraclete is a parallel figure to Jesus himself; and this conclusion is confirmed in the fact that the title is suitable for both. It is clear from 14:16 that the source thought there were sendings of two Paracletes, Jesus and his successor, the one following the other"

    The Gospel of John a Commentary, Rudolf Bultmann, p. 567



    6) "Parakletos" or "Periklytos"?:

    Some scholars believe that what Jesus (pbuh) said in his own Aramaic tongue in these verses represents more closely the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek. There are several similar documented cases of similar word substitution in the Bible. It is also quite possible that both words were contained in the original text but were dropped by a copyist because of the ancient custom of writing words closely packed, with no spaces in-between them. In such a case the original reading would have been: "and He will give you another comforter(Parakletos), the admirable one(Periklytos)" (See examples of many similar cases in the Biblical text in "The Emphatic Diaglott").


    In his book "Muhammed in the Bible", Professor `Abdul-Ahad Dawud, formerly Rev. David Benjamin Keldani, Roman Catholic Bishop of Uramiah, submits a much more eloquent and scholarly presentation in defense of these assertions, far beyond the limited abilities of this humble author. For those who which to read a truly scholarly study of this matter, you may obtain a copy of that book. The following is a very brief quotation from that book:


    "The 'Paraclete' does not signify either 'consoler' or 'advocate'; in truth, it is not a classical word at all. The Greek orthography of the word is Paraklytos which in ecclesiastical literature is made to mean 'one called to aid, advocate, intercessor' (Dict. Grec.-Francais, by Alexandre). One need not profess to be a Greek scholar to know that the Greek word for 'comforter or consoler' is not 'Paraclytos' but 'Paracalon'. I have no Greek version of the Septuagint with me, but I remember perfectly well that the Hebrew word for 'comforter' (mnahem) in the Lamentations of Jeremiah (I. 2, 9, 16, 17, 21, etc.) is translated into Parakaloon, from the verb Parakaloo, which means to call to, invite, exhort, console, pray, invoke. It should be noticed that there is a long alpha vowel after the consonant kappa in the 'Paracalon' which does not exist in the 'Paraclytos.' In the phrase (He who consoles us in all our afflictions) 'paracalon' and not 'Paraclytos' is used. (I exhort, or invite, thee to work). Many other examples can be cited here. There is another Greek word for comforter or consoler, i.e. "Parygorytys' from 'I console'.....The proper Greek term for 'advocate' is Sunegorus and for 'intercessor' or 'mediator' Meditea"

    Muhammad in the Bible, Prof. Abdul-`Ahad Dawud, pp. 208-209



    7) "He" not "It":

    Notice the use of "he" when referring to the Paraclete and not "it." If we read John 16:13, we will find no less than SEVEN occurrences of the masculine pronoun "He" and "Himself." There is not another verse in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or the seventy three books of the Catholic Bible which contains seven masculine pronouns, or seven feminine pronouns, or even seven neuter genders. So many masculine pronouns ill befits a ghost, holy or otherwise. The word "Spirit" (Greek, pneu'ma), is of a neutral gender and is always referred to by the pronoun "it."


    Mr. Ahmed Deedat says:


    "When this point of seven masculine pronouns was mooted by Muslims in India in their debates with the Christian missionaries, the Urdu (Indian) version of the Bible had the pronouns presently changed to SHE, SHE, SHE! so that the Muslims could not claim that this prophecy referred to Muhammad (pbuh) - a man! This Christian deception I have seen in the Bible myself. This is a common trickery by the missionaries, more specially in the vernacular. The very latest ruse I have stumbled across in the Afrikaans Bible, on the very verse under discussion; they have changed the word "Trooster" (Comforter), to "Voorspraak" (Mediator), and interpolated the phrase - "die Heilige Gees" - meaning THE HOLY GHOST, which phrase no Bible scholar has ever dared to interpolate into any of the multifarious English Versions. No, not even the Jehovah's witnesses. This is how the Christians manufacture God's word."

    "Muhammad, the natural successor to Christ," Ahmed Deedat, p. 51


    8) He will guide you into all truth:

    In the above verses Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as saying "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth." What does Jesus (pbuh) mean by "ye cannot bear them now"? If we were to read the Bible, we would find many verses throughout the Bible wherein Jesus (pbuh) bemoans the lack of understanding he was constantly greeted with from his disciples throughout his ministry:


    "And he(Jesus) saith unto them(the disciples).....O ye of little faith."

    Matthew 8:26


    "...and (Jesus) said unto him(Peter), O thou of little faith."

    Matthew 14:31


    "he (Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), O ye of little faith."

    Matthew 16:8


    "And he(Jesus) said unto them(the disciples), Where is your faith?"

    Luke 8:25


    Notice that these are not common Jews who he is saying these words to, but his own elect disciples. The Bible vividly illustrates how he is constantly going out of his way to simplify matters for them and to speak to them as one speaks to little children. However, even at that, they still misunderstand. He is finally driven to frustration and made to say:


    "And Jesus said, Are ye even yet without understanding?"

    Matthew 15:16


    and "And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you?"

    Luke 9:41


    We are even told that his own people did not accept him:

    "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

    John 1:11


    Jesus (pbuh) had "all truth," but he could not give it to them because they were not fit to receive it. Therefore, he told them that another would come after him who shall guide them into "all truth" which they could not receive from him. He tells us that the one who will come will "teach you all things." This one who will guide them into "all truth" is described as "The spirit of truth." We have already seen how the word "spirit" in the Bible is synonymous with the word "Prophet." Muhammad (pbuh), even before he became the prophet of Islam was known among his people as "Al-sadik Al-amin," which means "The truthful, the trustworthy." Thus, it becomes apparent that Muhammad was indeed "the spirit of truth." Since the departure of Jesus (pbuh) and to this day, the "Holy Ghost" has not taught mankind a single new truth not revealed by Jesus (pbuh) himself.


    It is important to notice the words "ALL truth" and "MANY things." "Many" and "All" means more than one. What new and innovative teachings has the Holy Ghost given mankind which were not taught by Jesus (pbuh)? The Qur'an says:


    "O mankind! The messenger (Muhammad) hath come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore believe; (it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is the All-Knower, the All-Wise."



    9) He shall glorify me:

    The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this. Just one of the many examples of this is:


    "And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."

    The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):40.


    Nobody seems to recognize this fact as being at all extraordinary. People generally look upon the Jews as true worshippers of God and followers of a legitimate faith, even if they do consider them misguided by not following Jesus (pbuh) but killing him. Their book is even incorporated into the Bible as the faultless word of God. On the other hand, Muslims are looked down upon as followers of a false prophet and as savage blood thirsty terrorists or barbarians. However, if we were to look at the Jewish opinion of Jesus (pbuh) we would find that an early reference in the Babylonian "Talmud" says that "Jeshu ha-Nocri" was a false prophet who was hanged on the eve of the Passover for sorcery and false teaching. They further claim that he was a bastard son of a Roman adulterer among many other allegations.


    Mr. Josh McDowell is a Biblical scholar who has researched the topic of the Jewish Talmud's view of Jesus. The Talmud, of course, is the ultimate authoritative body of Jewish tradition, comprising the Mishnah and Gemara. In Mr. McDowell's book, "Evidence that demands a verdict," he quotes extensively from the Jewish Talmud with regard to the official Jewish view of Jesus (pbuh). The following is a small sampling from this book:


    "Tol'doth Yeshu. Jesus is referred to as 'Ben Pandera'." Note: 'Ben Pandera' means 'son of Pandera'. He was a Roman soldier the Jews allege to have raped Mary to produce the illegitimate son Jesus (God forbid).

    Yeb. IV 3;49a: "Rabbi Shimeon Ben Azzai said (regarding Jesus): 'I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress."

    Joseph Klausner adds:

    "Current editions of the Mishnah, add: 'To support the words of Rabbi Yehoshua' (who in the same Mishnah says: What is a bastard? Everyone who's parents are liable to death by the Beth Din), that Jesus is here referred to seems to be beyond doubt."


    The Jews had adopted in their ancient references a system of referring to Jesus with code names when heaping upon his person allegations of evil and blasphemy. One good reference on this topic is "The Jewish Encyclopaedia," in twelve volumes. The following information is obtained from that book.


    Under the heading of "Jesus in Jewish legend" (Vol. VII, page 170-173), we are told that Jesus is referred to in Jewish references by such code names as "that man," "that anonymous one," "Yeshu," "bastard," "son of Pandera," "son of Stada," "Balaam," (destroyer of the people) etc. Most allegations which are associated with Jesus (peace be upon him and his mother), concern themselves either with belittling the person of Jesus, ascribing to him illegitimate birth, ascribing to his mother Mary (pbuh) acts of whoredom, attributing to Jesus acts of black magic through the vain use of the given name of God, and attributing to him a shameful death as well as severe and denigrating punishment in the afterlife.


    These references to Jesus in Jewish records and law claim that Jesus was born to a well known adulteress named "Mary," who conceived him through adultery with a Roman soldier who was named either "Pandera" or "Stada." Jesus is then claimed to have traveled to Egypt and entered into the service of magicians, he lusted after a woman and was excommunicated, he set up a brick as his god and led all of Israel into apostasy. He is claimed to have cut his magic formulas into his skin, by having taken a parchment containing the "declared name of God" and cut it into his skin in order to steal it from the Temple. All of his miracles were then performed through this stolen parchment which was later forcibly retrieved from him. It was Judas Iscarlot who volunteered to retrieve it from Jesus. An arial battle ensued between Judas and Jesus. Judas found that he could in no way touch Jesus so he "defiled" him. Judas emerged victorious and Jesus fled. Forty days before the condemnation of Jesus, a herald called upon anyone who could say anything in Jesus' favor. Not a single person came. The scholars of Israel then bound him to a pillar, however, his disciples attacked them and freed him. He disguised himself and rode an ass into Jerusalem, however, Judas saw through his disguise and exposed him.


    We are told that Jesus was then taken to be hung on the tree as the law required, however, he had conjured all of the trees with his black magic and none of them would receive him. Finally they hung him up on a large cabbage stalk which received him. After Jesus' body was placed in the tomb it disappeared and his disciples tried to claim that he had risen, however, it was later discovered that "Judas the gardener" had taken Jesus' body and used it as a dam to hold back the water in his garden. Jesus' body was then retrieved and flung before the Queen. In this manner the lies of the apostles were silenced and there was great rejoicing throughout the land. This same encyclopaedia aleges that the Qur'an "alludes to" the insult delivered to the body of Jesus in the streets of Jerusalem. A claim that is not only preposterous and unfounded, however, the authors are hereby publicly challenged to produce the text of the Qur'an that "alludes to" such evil claims against Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother Mary.

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    the problem is the bible has been translated from ARAMIC - GREEK - LATIN - OLD ENGLISH - ENGLISH today ....... and still the verses still exist in the bible of what was prophecised to come after jesus , which is Muhammed (pbuH) ..... people who have more of a deep thinking pattern will surely FIND THE TRUTH , (god willing)

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    I want to know why more Muslims/Christians don't follow more Jewish law from the Torah.

    Jesus' moral and spiritual teachings were essentially Jewish, albeit a different interpretation than the pharisees of the time.

    No passover celebration, very little dietary restrictions, etc. Why?

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    hmmm... generally speaking, don't most religions teach the same things...

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    zoaib,
    Man thats long! Do me a favor. I dont have the amount of time you do all at one sitting. Please pick a single point, post your proof and belief, and then ill reply. Thanks man. I read your post though, dont think I didnt. but what is the point of all this? what are you trying to prove?

    max

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    If the koran is the perfect book, why the contradictions and what of these contradictions do you believe:

    Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)
    Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)

    Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)
    Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

    Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)
    Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)

    All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)
    Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)

    Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)
    Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)

    These are some, not all, and Im sure more than what I know or read about.

    -Max

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    The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused concern for Muslim scholars at the time. In the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions of the Koran available.

    Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state '[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so. 'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among the Jews and Christians before them'

    A lot of this info I got from "The Koran" by Michael Cook: Oxford University Press; 2000. And a lot of the info is from chapter 11.

    max

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme

    The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused concern for Muslim scholars at the time. In the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions of the Koran available.

    Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state '[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so. 'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among the Jews and Christians before them'

    A lot of this info I got from "The Koran" by Michael Cook: Oxford University Press; 2000. And a lot of the info is from chapter 11.

    max
    The holy book of Islam. Also referred to in English as "Quran", or "Qur'an". The latter is the correct transcription, but in this article we use the commonly used "Koran".
    The exact meaning of the word 'Koran' is not clear for us today, but the three main theories connect it to either the word for 'collect' or to the word for 'tie together', or perhaps best to the most commonly used word for 'read' or 'recite', which is an important verb in the book itself.
    The Koran as a book is the result of:

    1. Revelations given to Muhammad in the period 610- 632 (Muhammad's death).

    2. Writing down of these revelations by people around Muhammad in a period probably starting some years after 610, and ending a couple of years after 632.

    3. Compilation of these writings stretching from mid-630s and perhaps until mid -650s.

    4. Vowelling and dotting of the text. Ancient Arabic was written without dots, leaving some letters look identical. And in many cases the lack of vowels would make two different words look identical.
    It was therefore up to the memories of the learned to remember what was the correct meaning of every word. But as these learned people died, the early Muslim community found it important to save the exact meaning once and for all, before it was too late.
    Essential to the reading of the Koran are the interpretations of the content. There are still some scholars working on interpreting the text, but this was a more common act during the first centuries of Islam.
    As the Koran has a structure and a language, as well as allusions, which often are difficult for the normal Muslim to understand, a whole science were built around the comprehension of the Koran. The early Muslims studied history, language and nature science in an effort of understanding the Koran better. The product is surprisingly well accepted by the whole Muslim society, and no Muslim child or adult of today, studying the Koran, does this without help from the interpretations built on the early sciences of the Koran.
    The early efforts of Koranic science have given room for different approaches to the book and its content, but apart from the interpretations of the , all interpretations are looked upon as parallel, meaning that one of them cannot be put ahead of the other.
    There are today 7 ways of reading the Koran, each of these have two variances, leaving the Muslims with 14 ways of reading the Koran. But in modern Koranic science this applies only to Muslim scholars, the ordinary Muslim reads the Koran without entering this level of complexity.
    The Koran is divided into 114 suras, which are opened by indications on their origin. The origin is either Mecca or Medina. But it is generally accepted that some of suras have parts from the other city than the one indicated as the origin. The whole structure of the Koran is a science in itself, as there is no chronology in it, like the one found in the Bible, and as the most of it consists of commandments and warnings, and only a small part are stories.

    http://i-cias.com/e.o/koran.htm

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    the only thign added to the Quran were the vowels , which helped differentiate the meanings of the words from one another ................ and the Quran never got tranliterated like the Bible ............. it still remains in its original language , and with no different versions ............ u can pick any Quran in the world and it will be the same to the last DOT ! ............. hence such is not the case with the Bible , where we see almost after every 2 or 3 yrs there are revised versions ......... go figure !

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    zoaib,
    Man thats long! Do me a favor. I dont have the amount of time you do all at one sitting. Please pick a single point, post your proof and belief, and then ill reply. Thanks man. I read your post though, dont think I didnt. but what is the point of all this? what are you trying to prove?

    max
    my point is to prove that the jews and the christians in there HOLY books were advised and prophecised about the comming of the Last , the Seal of the prophets ...................... and hence i gave u the the verses from the bible n the Quran that colaborate each other , thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    I want to know why more Muslims/Christians don't follow more Jewish law from the Torah.

    Jesus' moral and spiritual teachings were essentially Jewish, albeit a different interpretation than the pharisees of the time.

    No passover celebration, very little dietary restrictions, etc. Why?
    we as the muslims dont follow the torah since , for us its not in its original form anymore , it has been changed over the period of times by the hands of man ............... but the ten commandments which were given to the jews are also in our religion , fasting , praying and paying charity and performing pilgrimage are all pillars of Islam ............. plus when Muhammed was given the Book Quran , it has everything that was mentioned in the past books and more , to finalise the message GOD had been trying to put down !

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    passover

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    I want to know why more Muslims/Christians don't follow more Jewish law from the Torah.

    Jesus' moral and spiritual teachings were essentially Jewish, albeit a different interpretation than the pharisees of the time.

    No passover celebration, very little dietary restrictions, etc. Why?
    Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:26-32: I Corinthians 11:23-34)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    the only thign added to the Quran were the vowels , which helped differentiate the meanings of the words from one another ................ and the Quran never got tranliterated like the Bible ............. it still remains in its original language , and with no different versions ............ u can pick any Quran in the world and it will be the same to the last DOT ! ............. hence such is not the case with the Bible , where we see almost after every 2 or 3 yrs there are revised versions ......... go figure !
    So you are saying that you cant read the quran in english? That you and every other muslim must learn the original language to read it??

    -max

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    So, if there are 14 different ways to read the koran, but most muslims read it one way and only the 'scholars' read the other variances, how do you know that one of the other variances isnt the real one?

    max

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    At one time in Christianity the Bible was only read and written in Latin, and the scholars interperted the Bible to the masses.

    There is ONLY ONE KORAN, ONE.

    And it is highly highly reccomended a person read the Koran in Arabic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    So you are saying that you cant read the quran in english? That you and every other muslim must learn the original language to read it??

    -max
    All muslims pray in Arabic, no matter what the nationality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    At one time in Christianity the Bible was only read and written in Latin, and the scholars interperted the Bible to the masses.

    There is ONLY ONE KORAN, ONE.

    And it is highly highly reccomended a person read the Koran in Arabic.
    Highly recommended that a person read the koran in arabic?? How many people around the world do you think speak arabic in a non arabic nation??

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    All muslims pray in Arabic, no matter what the nationality.
    If all muslims pray in arabic, no matter what, that tells me that the religion tells them what to pray. is that true? how would a non-arabic speaking muslim pray otherwise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    If the koran is the perfect book, why the contradictions and what of these contradictions do you believe:

    Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)
    Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)

    Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)
    Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

    Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)
    Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)

    All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)
    Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)

    Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)
    Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)

    These are some, not all, and Im sure more than what I know or read about.

    -Max

    do you guys have a viewpoint on this??

    ill write more in a bit, gonna be gone for a while.

    max

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    All muslims Arabic or Non-Arabic pray in Arabic. I am non-Arabic I pray in Arabic. Chinese Muslims pray in Arabic, every muslim prays in Arabic.

    Yes the religion says that the word of GOD was revealed in Arabic, and translations would and might change the word of GOD, which isnt a good thing.

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    the real reson why it is always kept in arabic is becuase arabic is the orignal languange and by keeping everything the same as the day it was written means L
    1) no differnt versions of the koran 2) the religon cannot morph and things cannot be added to it.

    its mainly a technique to preserve the origanal message so it can be passed on intact to the next generation of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    we as the muslims dont follow the torah since , for us its not in its original form anymore , it has been changed over the period of times by the hands of man ...............
    This sounds like a convient way to abandon laws and teachings that aren't attractive to converts. How can you pick and choose what is divinely given and what is manmade? If the Quran is essentially a compilation, how do you know you haven't left something out?
    Last edited by MMC78; 09-11-2004 at 06:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    So, if there are 14 different ways to read the koran, but most muslims read it one way and only the 'scholars' read the other variances, how do you know that one of the other variances isnt the real one?

    max
    let me correct u on your variances theory , the scholars read the cotemporary works done by ancient muslims cholars who explained the quran , even in arabic and other languages , that does not mean there are variances in the quran there are analysis of its verses which the scholars use to learn the true meaning behind the words of GOD .............. also u talk about these variances i would like to know if u have seen any or know where to get one , i would certainly like to know that .............

    for the second part , i can read Quran in English , since it has been translated into english , and the arabic text is right next to it , but to know the true word of GOD we are advised to learn arabic , ................

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    all these contradiction examples u have given me are bogus , if u read the whole verses without taking the keywords out of context , u will understand what the true verses say i will only clearify two contradictions , since i think it would be enough to make this wrong assumption straight !


    Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)

    then he rose over (istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke & said to it and to the earthl , "come both of u willingly or unwillingly " they both said " we come willingly " (surah 41.11)

    Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)

    have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together , then we parted them ? and we have made from water every living thing , will they not then believe (Surah 21:30)

    i seriously dont see any contradiction of what u r trying to tell us here

    Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

    indeed your lord is Allah . Who created the heavens and the earth in 6 days , and then . He rose over (istawa) the throne (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

    Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

    Say ( O muhammed , pbuh) do u verily disbelieve in him who created the earth in 2 days ? and you set up rivals to worsjip wiht Him ?(Surah 41:9-12)

    AGAIN i'd like to point out , a person with even a little of brains can see if God says he made the heavens n the earth in total 6 days , then he also mentions he created the earth in 2 days , what CONTRADICTION are u talking about , bro ............... plus according to u its 8 days , i have no CLUE where u r getting your info from , your source needs to do some homework .

    Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)
    Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)


    i wont even bother writing the original verses here since if u wanna really see how false this assumption is , please read the whole verse

    All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)
    Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)



    i wont even bother writing the original verses here since if u wanna really see how false this assumption is , please read the whole verse

    Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)

    he who is the originator of the heavens & the earth. how can he have children when he has no wife? hecreated all things and he is the all knowing of everything.(Surah 6:101)

    Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)

    had Allah willed to have a son. he could have chosen whom he willed out of those whom he created. but glory to him ( he is above these things) He is Allah the one the irresistible. Surah 39:4

    hope fully u would like to share where u got the wrong information from , since i have to be one DAFT person if i cant understand the complete verses , THEY SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES . thx for trying !

    ( by the way i dont know if u know i am a white convert , i used to be catholic , but i embraced islam this year ) ........ i have done my homework before i switched !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    This sounds like a convient way to abandon laws and teachings that aren't attractive to converts. How can you pick and choose what is divinely given and what is manmade? If the Quran is essentially a compilation, how do you know you haven't left something out?
    the Quran is not a compilation , it was completed in the Prophets time , and he made his disciples write it down in his life time ............ sounds more crdible to me , but whereas , Jesus (pbuh) never had the bible written down in his life , and 30 yrs after his passing Paul compiled it .... doesnt sound too credible to me ! go figure

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    all these contradiction examples u have given me are bogus , if u read the whole verses without taking the keywords out of context , u will understand what the true verses say i will only clearify two contradictions , since i think it would be enough to make this wrong assumption straight !


    Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)

    then he rose over (istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke & said to it and to the earthl , "come both of u willingly or unwillingly " they both said " we come willingly " (surah 41.11)

    Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)

    have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together , then we parted them ? and we have made from water every living thing , will they not then believe (Surah 21:30)

    i seriously dont see any contradiction of what u r trying to tell us here

    Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

    indeed your lord is Allah . Who created the heavens and the earth in 6 days , and then . He rose over (istawa) the throne (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

    Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)

    Say ( O muhammed , pbuh) do u verily disbelieve in him who created the earth in 2 days ? and you set up rivals to worsjip wiht Him ?(Surah 41:9-12)

    AGAIN i'd like to point out , a person with even a little of brains can see if God says he made the heavens n the earth in total 6 days , then he also mentions he created the earth in 2 days , what CONTRADICTION are u talking about , bro ............... plus according to u its 8 days , i have no CLUE where u r getting your info from , your source needs to do some homework .

    Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)
    Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)


    i wont even bother writing the original verses here since if u wanna really see how false this assumption is , please read the whole verse

    All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)
    Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)



    i wont even bother writing the original verses here since if u wanna really see how false this assumption is , please read the whole verse

    Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)

    he who is the originator of the heavens & the earth. how can he have children when he has no wife? hecreated all things and he is the all knowing of everything.(Surah 6:101)

    Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)

    had Allah willed to have a son. he could have chosen whom he willed out of those whom he created. but glory to him ( he is above these things) He is Allah the one the irresistible. Surah 39:4

    hope fully u would like to share where u got the wrong information from , since i have to be one DAFT person if i cant understand the complete verses , THEY SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES . thx for trying !

    ( by the way i dont know if u know i am a white convert , i used to be catholic , but i embraced islam this year ) ........ i have done my homework before i switched !
    You didnt finish Surah 41:9-12:
    Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days
    And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

    He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
    and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things
    to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days
    in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

    Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
    and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth:
    "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
    They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

    So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,
    and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
    And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
    and (provided it) with guard.
    Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
    -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)

    thats 2 days to create the earth, 4 days for mountains and blessings, etc, and 2 more days for the heavens altogether these are EIGHT Days

    ************************************************** ********
    In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.

    Verse 41:11 does not imply come together. The word together simply isn't there and isn't implied by the Arabic. The phrase is perfectly well rendered in English with ‘come into being’.

    ************************************************** ********

    He it is Who hath created for you all that is on earth.
    Then He turned to the heaven, and made them into seven heavens. -- Sura 2:29

    Sura 41:9-12 also gives details on the creation process and confirms that the earth was created first and then the heavens. But then we read also:

    Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
    He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
    and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
    And after that, He spread out the earth. -- Sura 79:27-30

    SO, in the first verse, earth was created first and in the 2nd the heavens were created first.

    ************************************************** ********

    About the angels: For NONE are arrogant (before their Lord). They ALL fear their Lord, high above them, and they do ALL they are commanded. -- Sura 16:49-50

    And behold, we said to the ANGELS: "Bow down to Adam". And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty. -- Sura 2:34

    The command of Allah is given to the angels. Since Iblis is accused of not being obedient, he has to be one of the angels.

    Contradicting 16:50, he refused = is disobedient, and is haughty = arrogant (before his Lord).

    ************************************************** ********
    In Surah 39:4 as you have written, it says that if allah wanted a son, he could have taken for himself a son from among his creation.

    In Surah 6:101 as you have written, it asks the question, "How could allah have a son when he has no wife?" meaning, and tell me if Im wrong here, that allah did NOT have a wife, meaning he could not have a son.

    ************************************************** ********

    Please dont assume that when I write things down, I havnt looked them up as you stated "i wont even bother writing the original verses here since if u wanna really see how false this assumption is , please read the whole verse" I use my free time to research, though sometimes that free time is very limited. I didnt take your post personally, just letting you know I do check things out...
    Last edited by max2extreme; 09-12-2004 at 12:24 AM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    let me correct u on your variances theory , the scholars read the cotemporary works done by ancient muslims cholars who explained the quran , even in arabic and other languages , that does not mean there are variances in the quran there are analysis of its verses which the scholars use to learn the true meaning behind the words of GOD .............. also u talk about these variances i would like to know if u have seen any or know where to get one , i would certainly like to know that .............

    for the second part , i can read Quran in English , since it has been translated into english , and the arabic text is right next to it , but to know the true word of GOD we are advised to learn arabic , ................

    I read about the different variances and thus posted here. YOU confirmed that it was true, there were 14 variances. You said there are 7 ways to read the kuran, each with 2 variances. I never said I knew what the variances were or that I knew where they were. I just knew there were 14 different. And I asked the simple question, how do you know which is the real thing? Its not a theory of mine. Its a question. By you answering this question it doesnt prove or disprove me or you. By you not being able to answer I think it shows some concern... yes? no?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    At one time in Christianity the Bible was only read and written in Latin, and the scholars interperted the Bible to the masses.

    There is ONLY ONE KORAN, ONE.

    And it is highly highly reccomended a person read the Koran in Arabic.
    Im an english speaking, chinese linguist. My teachers were all native chinese and spoke fluent english. They have a book written in Chinese. They taught it to me in english which they are also fluent in. Are you saying the book in chinese when the teachers read it for themselves, and the english version that i read, which was 'interpreted' by those same english speaking/chinese speaking 'scholars' is different?

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    The more I read about Islam, the less credible their statements become.

    Textual Variants of the Qur'an
    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Text/index.html

    The Qu'ran has been changed many times in he past 1400 years. Scholars can verify that the original 5 books of the Torah have been largely unchanged for approx 2500 years. How then can they accuse the Jews and Christians of corrupting their texts when such evidence exists and while restricting access to old manuscripts of the Qu'ran?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoneo
    just wondering if christianity still believes that the earth is the center of the universe - is that written in the bible or was that just a made up belief - also wondering if christianity mentions the dinosaurs
    these are things i've always wondered

    Only stupid or extreme christians think dinosaurs walked with man. But there is some that still want to take the versus of Job to make things complicating. Here are the versus that speak of the beast. It comes from the book of Job. What does it really mean or describe??? I have no Idea but here they are.

    JOB

    15: Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
    16: Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
    17: He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
    18: His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
    19: He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
    20: Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
    21: He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
    22: The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
    23: Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
    24: He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.


    youll have to decide on your own. Maybe a hippo for all I know.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Id like to discuss Christianity Vs. Another religion.

    Well . . . there are lots of different versions of Christianity, and different groups practice it with differing levels of intensity.
    On one hand, you've got yer liberals who take most of the Bible as a bunch of allegories meant to be taken figuratively with the lessons extrapolated to fit modern living situations. On the other hand, you've got yer conservative fundamentalists who insist that if you don't beleive a certain way (usually their way) then you're gonna burn in hell forever, and some of 'em would be glad to speed your trip to your last judgement.

    So . . . when you say "Christianity," you're covering a lot of territory. Can you narrow your scope down a bit?

    -Tock

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

    The author and site maker is a well known Islamic scholar.

    There is scientific proof behind his theories, not religious proof.

    I read that and I really cant believe that in our society people can argue against evolution. There is no scientific proof here at all. The author is extremely ignorant on the subject of evolution. He obvioulsy doesnt know that Darwins theories were a basis for modern evolutionary theory, and that further work has been done to prove evolution is occuring as we live and breathe. It is very ignorant and biased. There is mention of what westerners call "social Darwinsim" and how that lead to Nazi's, Facists and other race purifires. As if to say Darwin himself was a bigot or whatever. Darwin was a make shift scientist who cared only about finding truth, to brand him as anything negative becasue of his work is truley ignorant. and in my opinion shows a sour grapes attitude becasue it proves religion is BS and you people cant handle that.

  40. #40
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    Tock im sorry but you cant be God minded and vote for liberals.

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