09-26-2004, 05:12 PM #1
Questions about Christianity, not debate...
Thought Id start a thread for those of you not wanting to debate christianity vs a religion or try to prove it right or wrong, but for those who have a question about why something is, or what something means. Perhaps you saw "The Passion of the Christ" and it rose some questions, or perhaps a neighbor or co-worker said something...whatever the case may be. I know I would help and if I didnt know the answer, Id get an answer or help point in the right direction. Im sure the other christians on this board would help as well...
PS: please those who dont believe, i would appreciate it that you keep any anti-christian remarks or debate type posts to the other thread please. Though if you have a question thats not trying to turn this thread into a debate is welcome.
09-26-2004, 05:42 PM #2
One question I have from the passion of christ is what is the meaning of the scene where christ is beeing tourtured and the devil walks around with a baby in his arms? Who/what is the baby??
Another question I have.
Is angels imortal??
09-26-2004, 06:02 PM #3Originally Posted by johan
09-26-2004, 06:05 PM #4
Thanks for the reply causasian!! Sounds resonable...I just figured it was something directly from the bible but seems like it as a gibson invention.
Another question I have about christianity and the bible.
Is lucifer the same as satan?? I have heard mixed things about this....
09-26-2004, 06:12 PM #5Originally Posted by johan
But many belive Lucifer = Satan.
This is based on your own interperation.
I am sure different people have different views and there is no one right answer.
09-26-2004, 06:19 PM #6
I asked the question because if lucifer is satan and god is all knowing then he created the angel lucifer fully aware that he will become the ultimate evil.
That leads me to think that if god can create evil then he himself must be evil....
In that case why blame satan/lucifer for evil things when god is to blame??
But then again this thread I guess isnt about debating that subject so I will leave it alone incase the thread creator wants that...
09-26-2004, 07:15 PM #7
Im not sure about the baby in the movie. Caucasion's explanations sounds good. Ill ask my pastor about it and tell him your response caucasion. As for your question about angels, yes they are immortal. And about Lucifer vs. devil. They are one in the same. God can create anything he wants. The bible gets very philosophical at this point and can be confusing. He can create evil. He created lucifer, who once was the most beautiful of all the angels! Lucifer turned against god and it is my understanding that this is when Lucifer got the title of 'the devil' since we think of 'the devil' as evil.
Your point of "...god must be evil" Well, God did not create evil in the sense of creating evil for no reason. He gave us the choice. He didnt want us to be 'blind' slaves with no will just to worship him. What would be the point? He wanted us to choose Him. Worship Him on our own. Not because He made us to. He did know that Lucifer would rise against him. He is all knowing. So though he 'created evil' if you will, it doesnt make him evil I dont think. Do you?
09-27-2004, 06:41 AM #8Originally Posted by johan
anyways we as muslims believe SATAN - SHAI- TAAN ...... in arabic is of the JINN , who were created from fire , but due to his enormous amount of worship and loyalty to GOD , he was given the leading rank among the angels , so he wasnt an angel according to us he is of JINN
GOD created JINN ( from smokless fire ) , Angels ( from pure light ) and man ( from clay ) .............. these r the three beings , and only the JINN and Man will be judged for their sins and good deeds on the day of judgement !
sorry max i couldnt help but give my view , sorry if i hijacked this thread !
09-27-2004, 06:47 AM #9
SHAITAAN in arabic means " the cursed one" .............. to our beliefs , when GOD created ADAM , and told all the angels to bow to him , SHAITAAN , held out of ego and pride , and said to GOD " how can i bow to something that is far less inferior to me , i am made out of FIRE , he is made out of CLAY " ............ but he didnt realize who was giving this order to him , SO he was casted out as " the cursed one" and given the title SHAITAAN - SATAN from then on ! ........... the christian belief is very close to what we believe !
09-27-2004, 06:49 AM #10
u know this is a very good thread , i would like to see us all backtrack to the points where the JEWS , CHRISTIANS , MUSLIMS have common gorunds , it would be interestign to then see where we differ and why ? ............... so dont be shy and ask away !
09-27-2004, 06:54 AM #11Banned
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
- The Resistance
why did jesus need to die on the cross for mans sins.
if he has died for the forgivness of our sins then why do we even need to do good things when we have already been forgiven.
09-27-2004, 06:57 AM #12
I have another question wich might be stupid considering I havent read the bibel
but in the old testament god seems to be view as a often cruel and very evil unless one does everything to obey his every command.
But in the new testament he is more view as a kind, loving and forgiving god.
Why is there such a difference??
09-27-2004, 07:02 AM #13
Here's my question. Why do Christians spend so much time and effort celebrating the suffering / dying of Christ instead of celebrating his life. It's sad, but I know so much about how and why he died and so little about anything he taught.
Also, why did he suffer so? If his goal was to show people the truth, then why not use his power when people doubted him? Wouldn't you be more likely to believe something if you saw it yourself? It seems unfair to condemn people to hell for not having blind faith.
09-27-2004, 07:04 AM #14Banned
Originally Posted by johan
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
- The Resistance
becuase alot of people have been leaving the churh/religon and are either becoming athiests or joining other religons so now there trying to make it "cool" by doing all this stuff on TV and having a more tolerent face to the religon.
09-27-2004, 07:06 AM #15Banned
- Join Date
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- The Resistance
why did god get Mary pregnant with his/thier child when he was not married to her.
he technically got a women pregnant without being married to her.
09-27-2004, 07:39 AM #16Originally Posted by johan
im not sure that the new testament has a loving and forgiving god as opposed to being evil. I think that the old testament has more stories of god used to teach morality. IE the story of Job, etc.
Originally Posted by physio_sport
according to the christian dogma it is an immaculate conception (having a baby without having sex) so no one got anyone pregnant. Thats why she is reffered to as "the virgin mary"
09-27-2004, 07:47 AM #17Originally Posted by co2boi
Well, here's my view. The life of Jesus was great. He healed the sick. Helped the hurt. Etc etc. But God said that ONLY thru the death of Jesus would mankind make it to Heaven. Only because Jesus gave his life are we to gain eternal bliss and stand with God. So, his death, though a horrible death and very sad, is actually a very joyful moment because Jesus did give his life for our sins. He could have not. He could have given his life to Satan when he was tempted, but instead he took the hard way for our sins. Perhaps the reason you know so much about how and why he died and so little about his teachings is because in mainstream, what he taught is exciting. How many people would watch a movie or read a book about his teachings? But unfortunatly, people today want to see death and violence. So if you want to know about His teachings, make an effort and read some of the bible or a christian book. But I doubt any movies are going to made directly about his teaching.
Originally Posted by co2boi
Hope this helps.
09-27-2004, 07:52 AM #18Originally Posted by johan
of course you can disregard physio_sports reply.
09-27-2004, 07:57 AM #19Originally Posted by physio_sport
In John 3:16 It says, " For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave His only begotten SON (Jesus) that WHOSOEVER believeth in HIM shall not parish but have EVERLASTING LIFE."
Last edited by max2extreme; 09-27-2004 at 08:26 AM.
09-27-2004, 08:01 AM #20
[QUOTE=max2extreme]Well, here's my view. The life of Jesus was great. He healed the sick. Helped the hurt. Etc etc. But God said that ONLY thru the death of Jesus would mankind make it to Heaven. Only because Jesus gave his life are we to gain eternal bliss and stand with God. So, his death, though a horrible death and very sad, is actually a very joyful moment because Jesus did give his life for our sins. He could have not. He could have given his life to Satan when he was tempted, but instead he took the hard way for our sins. Perhaps the reason you know so much about how and why he died and so little about his teachings is because in mainstream, what he taught is exciting. How many people would watch a movie or read a book about his teachings? But unfortunatly, people today want to see death and violence. So if you want to know about His teachings, make an effort and read some of the bible or a christian book. But I doubt any movies are going to made directly about his teaching.
So everyone that lived before the existance of Jesus went where when they died? Hell, pergatory?
He did use his power. How many people can bring someone back from the dead? How many can heal people with just a thought? How many people can feed thousands of people with a single loaf of bread? There is no blind faith. Also, a lot of people with this view (and dont think im attacking you please, im just trying to provide a little education) have heard the typical stories like i have given, but to really see this, you can look back at all of the prophetic verses in the bible, that Jesus perfectly fits into. Things that could not be coincidence. So all of these prophecies point to Jesus. Then Jesus is able to perform all of these great feats. He talks with authority. (this being something present day people would be like, so what he talks with authority, but in those days it didnt happen. if you want a clarification on this, let me know). He teaches what should be done, how you should live life, and he himself lives perfectly, without sin, thus hes not a hypocritical man/god. And we still torture and crucify him. BUT, this was all in God's plan. The devil knew that Jesus was the savior. That is why he spent so much effort trying to get him to give into the pain and suffering and temptations. That is why (i feel) jesus had to go thru so much torture because if Jesus was who he claimed to be, and He succeeded, the Devil would lose. The devil tried and Jesus succeeded...
I guess I worded that wrong. I realize he used his power many times, which a big reason why he had so many followers. But then there were his the people that did not believe, they people that had heard the stories but not seen the miracles for themselves. He could have converted most all of them by proving his power when they doubted him, but apparantely he didn't. Why?
09-27-2004, 08:01 AM #21Originally Posted by ZOAIB
09-27-2004, 08:17 AM #22Originally Posted by ZOAIB
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God. Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.
"How are thou fallen from heaven. O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground..." ( Isaiah 14:12)
For you have said: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High God." ( Isaiah 14:13)
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the "god of this world". And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9) Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels (may have) became Demons.
Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved. But God had a better way. A way of Redemption. And Christ the Redeemer was on His way!
09-27-2004, 08:27 AM #23
according to your bible , it matches the exact belief as muslims for the FALL OF SATAN , read n let me know if this is correct !
12.1 Satan also wept loudly and said to Adam. "All my arrogance and sorrow came to pass because of you; for, because of you I went forth from my dwelling; and because of you I was alienated from the throne of the cherubs who, having spread out a shelter, used to enclose me; because of you my feet have trodden the earth."
12.2 Adam replied and said to him,
12.3 "What are our sins against you, that you did all this to us?"
13.1 Satan replied and said, "You did nothing to me, but I came to this measure because of you, on the day on which you were created, for I went forth on that day.
13.2 When God breathed his spirit into you, you received the likeness of his image. Thereupon, Michael came and made you bow down before God. God said to Michael, 'Behold I have made Adam in the likeness of my image.'
14.1 Then Michael summoned all the angels. and God said to them,'Come, bow down to god whom I made.'
14.2 Michael bowed first. He called me and said. 'You too, bow down to Adam.'
14.3 I said, 'Go away, Michael! I shall not bow down to him who is posterior to me, for I am former. Why is it proper for me to bow down to him?'
15.1 The other angels, too, who were with me, heard this, and my words seemed pleasing to them and they did not prostrate themselves to you, Adam.
16.1 Thereupon, God became angry with me and commanded to expel us from our dwelling and to cast me and my angels, who were in agreement with me, to the earth; and you were at the same time in the Garden.
16.2 When I realized that because of you I had gone forth from the dwelling of light and was in sorrows and pains,
16.3 then I prepared a trap for you, so that I might alienate you from your happiness just as I, too, had been alienated because of you."
17.1 When Adam heard this, he said to the Lord, 'Lord, my soul is in your hand. Make this enemy of mine distant from me, who desires to lead me astray, I who am searching for the light that I have lost."
17.2 At that time Satan passed away from him.
17.3 Adam stood from then on in the waters of repentance, and Eve remained fallen upon the ground for three days, like one dead. Then, after three days, she arose from the earth,
09-27-2004, 09:16 AM #24Originally Posted by ZOAIB
Find me a verse in the bible that tells this story. Vita Adae et Evae is not a book in the christian bible.
09-28-2004, 06:31 AM #25Originally Posted by C02BOI
we are - by grace through faith. Hebrews 11 is a good chapter detailing the
faith of some Old Testament saints. The important thing is the object of
faith. Faith is always in God as He has revealed Himself. We have fuller
revelation now (since Jesus came), so for someone to say they believe in the
God of the Bible, but not in Jesus is just false religion cloaked in the
guise of the Bible. So even the Jews must now believe in Jesus, since they
must believe in God as He has revealed Himself.
Also, not only were the Old Testament saints saved the same way we were, but
they were saved through the same mediator - Jesus Christ. If Christ had
never come and paid the penalty for sin, those that we now consider Old
Testament saints would be in hell. Their faith was dependent on the future
death of the Messiah, even though they may not have completely understood
this. Everything points to the cross and the cross makes everything possible.
This is from my pastor and I asked a follow up question about this and Ill post his reply.
Ive been busy and sorry havnt gotten to this sooner..
09-28-2004, 06:43 AM #26Originally Posted by CO2BOI
Is this a satisfying answer or do you want more?
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