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  1. #1
    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Israel May Not Be Able to Destroy Nukes

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._striking_iran


    Israel May Not Be Able to Destroy Nukes

    Mon Sep 27, 9:47 PM ET Add Middle East - AP to My Yahoo!


    By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer

    JERUSALEM - Israel would not be able to destroy Iran's nuclear installations with a single air strike as it did in Iraq (news - web sites) in 1981 because they are scattered or hidden and intelligence is weak, Israeli and foreign analysts say.



    Israeli leaders have implied they might use force against Iran if international diplomatic efforts or the threat of sanctions fail to stop Iran from producing nuclear weapons.


    Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) said this month Israel is "taking measures to defend itself" — a comment that raised concern Israel is considering a pre-emptive strike along the lines of its 1981 bombing of an unfinished Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak near Baghdad.


    Speculation has also been fueled by recent Israeli weapons acquisitions, including bunker-buster bombs and long-range fighter-bombers.


    Israel's national security adviser, Giora Eiland, was quoted Monday by the Maariv daily as saying Iran will reach the "point of no return" in its nuclear weapons program by November rather than next year as Israeli military officials said earlier.


    Concern about Tehran's nuclear development intensified last week when Iran's Vice President Reza Aghazadeh said Iran has started converting raw uranium into the gas needed for enrichment, an important step in making a nuclear bomb.


    The declaration came in defiance of a resolution passed three days earlier by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, demanding Iran freeze all uranium enrichment — including conversion. The group's 35-nation board of governors warned that Iran risked being taken before the U.N. Security Council, which could impose sanctions.


    President Bush (news - web sites) reiterated in an interview broadcast Monday evening that he would not tolerate Iran having nuclear weapons.


    "My hope is that we can solve this diplomatically," Bush said on Fox News Channel's "The O'Reilly Factor." "We are working our hearts out so that they don't develop a nuclear weapon, and the best way to do so is to continue to keep international pressure on them."


    Pressed on whether he would allow Iran to build a bomb, Bush said: "No, we've made it clear, our position is that they won't have a nuclear weapon."


    Iran denies it is developing nuclear weapons, saying its nuclear development program is aimed at generating electricity. Israel and other countries, including the United States, doubt that.


    Recent Israeli weapons purchases could be crucial in a possible strike.


    In February, Israel received the first of 102 American-built F-16I warplanes, the largest weapons deal in its history. Military sources say the planes were specially designed with extra fuel tanks to allow them to reach Iran.


    In June, it signed a $319 million deal to acquire nearly 5,000 U.S.-made smart bombs, including 500 "bunker busters" that can destroy six-foot concrete walls, such as those that might be found in Iranian nuclear facilities.


    Military and strategic analysts in Israel and abroad say even with the new weaponry, Israel lacks the ability to carry out a successful strike against Iran's nuclear installations.


    "You have to have solid intelligence, you have to know what to hit ... The intelligence on Iran is very weak," said Alex Vatanka, an expert on Iranian security issues at Jane's Sentinel Security Assessments in London.


    Israeli strategic analyst Reuven Pedatzur pointed to a claim last year by Iranian opposition figures that foreign intelligence services have been unaware of two of the Iranian nuclear facilities.





    "There is no good intelligence on Iran, and this is the proof," he said. "Any Israeli attack on Iran would cause huge political damage, and in the end, the program would proceed."

    After Israel attacked the Osirak reactor, it came in for worldwide criticism. Arab opposition to an Israeli strike against Iran — particularly if it appeared to be unprovoked — would likely be widespread and intense. It could lead to attacks against Israeli and Jewish institutions abroad and condemnations from the United Nations (news - web sites).

    Other difficulties in attacking Iran's nuclear facilities include their dispersal throughout the country, their sophisticated defense systems and the likelihood that some of the installations have been replicated, said Cliff Kupchan, vice president of the Nixon Center in Washington, a former Clinton administration Iranian expert who met with Iranian officials during a visit there last year.

    Kupchan said IAEA threats to impose sanctions on Iraq are unrealistic, because U.N members, including those with fledging nuclear programs, such as Brazil, would be reluctant to back them.

    Sanctions against Iranian oil production are also unlikely when world demand is about 80 million barrels per day, prices are sky-high, and the only surplus capacity — about 2 million barrels per day from Saudi Arabia — is heavy oil the market usually shuns. Iran exports about 2.6 million barrels per day.

    Kupchan said if diplomacy fails, there may be no choice but for the United States to lead a concerted military campaign against Iran. "If the U.S. moves aggressively, it won't be sanctions, it will be a coalition of the willing," he said.

    Speaking at the United Nations last week, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom appeared to back him up.

    "The time has come to move the Iranian case to the Security Council in order to put an end to this nightmare," Shalom said.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._striking_iran


    Israel May Not Be Able to Destroy Nukes

    Mon Sep 27, 9:47 PM ET Add Middle East - AP to My Yahoo!


    By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer

    JERUSALEM - Israel would not be able to destroy Iran's nuclear installations with a single air strike as it did in Iraq (news - web sites) in 1981 because they are scattered or hidden and intelligence is weak, Israeli and foreign analysts say.

    I'd be wary of believing Israel's intelligence is weak. Look at Mossads strike at the new leader of Hamas in Damascus Sunday morning. Killed him in a surgical car bombing which killed or injuried no one else.

  3. #3
    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I'd be wary of believing Israel's intelligence is weak. Look at Mossads strike at the new leader of Hamas in Damascus Sunday morning. Killed him in a surgical car bombing which killed or injuried no one else.
    yeah but hitting one target is easier then hitting lots of targets which could be burried underground. and even then if they do there is no guarentee that they will be able to stop iran from getting a nuke.
    and also theres some info that israel had help from jordan in assinating the hamas leader.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1006688055060

    Hamas hints Jordan involved in Damascus assassination
    By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

    Hamas hinted on Monday that Jordan was involved in the assassination of one of its leaders in Syria and warned that its members would not remain idle.

    A car bomb killed Izz al-Din al-Sheikh Khalil, 42, and wounded three on Sunday in Damascus's al-Zahra district.

    Hamas, which has accused Israel of standing behind the assassination, said it was clear that an Arab country had played a role.

    Osama Hamdan, the Hamas representative in Lebanon, said an Arab country might have helped Israel carry out the assassination. He did not mention the Arab country by name, but several Hamas officials in Beirut and the Gaza Strip said it was clear that he was referring to Jordan.

    "This would be treason for an Arab security apparatus to be involved in this," Hamdan told the London-based pan-Arab daily Al-Hayat newspaper.

    Last week the paper claimed that an Arab country had handed to the Mossad a file with details about the leaders of Hamas abroad, including their movements.

    "Now, because of what happened yesterday or through other information, there are indications that this may be the case," Hamdan said.

    Hamdan's comments were echoed on Monday by Syria's official Al Baath newspaper.

    Al Baath editor-in-chief Mahdi Dakhal Allah said Khalil's slaying was "the result of the cooperation of Israel and some Arab security services." He said he had "no evidence" to back up his accusations, but "it seems logical to think that."

    Khalid Amayreh, a West Bank correspondent for the Al Jazeeranet Web site, said although no official source has named the suspected country, all fingers are pointing at Jordan.

    "The feeling here on the street is that Jordan is the number one suspect," he said. "The secret services of Israel and Jordan have traditionally had a close working relationship, especially since the two countries signed a peace agreement in 1995.

    "Many also believe that both countries see the Islamic movement in the region as their main enemy. The Islamic opposition in Jordan is seen by the ruling monarchy as the main obstacle to normalizing relations with Israel."

    Sources close to Hamas in the Gaza Strip said most of the movement's leaders are convinced that Jordan assisted Israel in the assassination.

    "This is the work of the Jordanian mukhabart [intelligence]," a Hamas official told Palestinian reporters. "We have been warned in the past that Jordan was stepping up its security coordination with Israel not only against Hamas, but also against other Palestinian groups. Hamas will find a way to punish the traitors."

    Another Hamas official claimed that initial investigations have indicated that the Mossad agents who allegedly carried out the assassination entered Syria from Iraq.

    "The Mossad is very active these days in Iraq and has many agents working there," he said. "They had no difficulty smuggling the explosives from Iraq."

  4. #4
    biglouie250's Avatar
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    if israel strikes iran first im sorry but i hope iran nukes the hell out of israel

  5. #5
    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    if israel strikes iran first im sorry but i hope iran nukes the hell out of israel
    have you had enough of israel as well?

  6. #6
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    i dont know if i have "had enough" of israel per se but i have had enough of the middle east as a whole and if we can get rid of 2 birds with one stone without having to put our troops in harms way ill be happy......

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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    i dont know if i have "had enough" of israel per se but i have had enough of the middle east as a whole and if we can get rid of 2 birds with one stone without having to put our troops in harms way ill be happy......
    HaHa im right there with you bro, **** is ****ing ridiculous, this people need to get in check with reality, killing each other every ****ing day over religion. just shows how great religion really is when more people die over it then any other cause...

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by HULK1732
    HaHa im right there with you bro, **** is ****ing ridiculous, this people need to get in check with reality, killing each other every ****ing day over religion. just shows how great religion really is when more people die over it then any other cause...
    the region was quite calm no war between "israel" and palestine before the zionists came along and screwed everything up.
    you know why this was?
    becuase israel did not exist.

  9. #9
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I'd be wary of believing Israel's intelligence is weak. Look at Mossads strike at the new leader of Hamas in Damascus Sunday morning. Killed him in a surgical car bombing which killed or injuried no one else.
    All that was, was a terrorist attack.

    Israel is now the only country in the Middle East, that had invaded its neighbours, threatened its neighbours, and has Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    If Jordan is really helping Israel, it needs to be overthrown, fast.

  10. #10
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    Jordan's another american puppet government........their kings pick hot lookin wives though.......gotta give em that.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._striking_iran


    Israel May Not Be Able to Destroy Nukes

    Mon Sep 27, 9:47 PM ET Add Middle East - AP to My Yahoo!


    By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer

    JERUSALEM - Israel would not be able to destroy Iran's nuclear installations with a single air strike as it did in Iraq (news - web sites) in 1981 because they are scattered or hidden and intelligence is weak, Israeli and foreign analysts say.



    Israeli leaders have implied they might use force against Iran if international diplomatic efforts or the threat of sanctions fail to stop Iran from producing nuclear weapons.


    Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) said this month Israel is "taking measures to defend itself" — a comment that raised concern Israel is considering a pre-emptive strike along the lines of its 1981 bombing of an unfinished Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak near Baghdad.


    Speculation has also been fueled by recent Israeli weapons acquisitions, including bunker-buster bombs and long-range fighter-bombers.


    Israel's national security adviser, Giora Eiland, was quoted Monday by the Maariv daily as saying Iran will reach the "point of no return" in its nuclear weapons program by November rather than next year as Israeli military officials said earlier.


    Concern about Tehran's nuclear development intensified last week when Iran's Vice President Reza Aghazadeh said Iran has started converting raw uranium into the gas needed for enrichment, an important step in making a nuclear bomb.


    The declaration came in defiance of a resolution passed three days earlier by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, demanding Iran freeze all uranium enrichment — including conversion. The group's 35-nation board of governors warned that Iran risked being taken before the U.N. Security Council, which could impose sanctions.


    President Bush (news - web sites) reiterated in an interview broadcast Monday evening that he would not tolerate Iran having nuclear weapons.


    "My hope is that we can solve this diplomatically," Bush said on Fox News Channel's "The O'Reilly Factor." "We are working our hearts out so that they don't develop a nuclear weapon, and the best way to do so is to continue to keep international pressure on them."


    Pressed on whether he would allow Iran to build a bomb, Bush said: "No, we've made it clear, our position is that they won't have a nuclear weapon."


    Iran denies it is developing nuclear weapons, saying its nuclear development program is aimed at generating electricity. Israel and other countries, including the United States, doubt that.


    Recent Israeli weapons purchases could be crucial in a possible strike.


    In February, Israel received the first of 102 American-built F-16I warplanes, the largest weapons deal in its history. Military sources say the planes were specially designed with extra fuel tanks to allow them to reach Iran.


    In June, it signed a $319 million deal to acquire nearly 5,000 U.S.-made smart bombs, including 500 "bunker busters" that can destroy six-foot concrete walls, such as those that might be found in Iranian nuclear facilities.


    Military and strategic analysts in Israel and abroad say even with the new weaponry, Israel lacks the ability to carry out a successful strike against Iran's nuclear installations.


    "You have to have solid intelligence, you have to know what to hit ... The intelligence on Iran is very weak," said Alex Vatanka, an expert on Iranian security issues at Jane's Sentinel Security Assessments in London.


    Israeli strategic analyst Reuven Pedatzur pointed to a claim last year by Iranian opposition figures that foreign intelligence services have been unaware of two of the Iranian nuclear facilities.





    "There is no good intelligence on Iran, and this is the proof," he said. "Any Israeli attack on Iran would cause huge political damage, and in the end, the program would proceed."

    After Israel attacked the Osirak reactor, it came in for worldwide criticism. Arab opposition to an Israeli strike against Iran — particularly if it appeared to be unprovoked — would likely be widespread and intense. It could lead to attacks against Israeli and Jewish institutions abroad and condemnations from the United Nations (news - web sites).

    Other difficulties in attacking Iran's nuclear facilities include their dispersal throughout the country, their sophisticated defense systems and the likelihood that some of the installations have been replicated, said Cliff Kupchan, vice president of the Nixon Center in Washington, a former Clinton administration Iranian expert who met with Iranian officials during a visit there last year.

    Kupchan said IAEA threats to impose sanctions on Iraq are unrealistic, because U.N members, including those with fledging nuclear programs, such as Brazil, would be reluctant to back them.

    Sanctions against Iranian oil production are also unlikely when world demand is about 80 million barrels per day, prices are sky-high, and the only surplus capacity — about 2 million barrels per day from Saudi Arabia — is heavy oil the market usually shuns. Iran exports about 2.6 million barrels per day.

    Kupchan said if diplomacy fails, there may be no choice but for the United States to lead a concerted military campaign against Iran. "If the U.S. moves aggressively, it won't be sanctions, it will be a coalition of the willing," he said.

    Speaking at the United Nations last week, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom appeared to back him up.

    "The time has come to move the Iranian case to the Security Council in order to put an end to this nightmare," Shalom said.

    One problem for Iran is the US just sold Israel 500 bunker buster bombs and most people believe its to take out Iran's underground nuclear sites...

    OG

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    yeah but hitting one target is easier then hitting lots of targets which could be burried underground. and even then if they do there is no guarentee that they will be able to stop iran from getting a nuke.
    and also theres some info that israel had help from jordan in assinating the hamas leader.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1006688055060

    Hamas hints Jordan involved in Damascus assassination
    By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

    Hamas hinted on Monday that Jordan was involved in the assassination of one of its leaders in Syria and warned that its members would not remain idle.

    A car bomb killed Izz al-Din al-Sheikh Khalil, 42, and wounded three on Sunday in Damascus's al-Zahra district.

    Hamas, which has accused Israel of standing behind the assassination, said it was clear that an Arab country had played a role.

    Osama Hamdan, the Hamas representative in Lebanon, said an Arab country might have helped Israel carry out the assassination. He did not mention the Arab country by name, but several Hamas officials in Beirut and the Gaza Strip said it was clear that he was referring to Jordan.

    "This would be treason for an Arab security apparatus to be involved in this," Hamdan told the London-based pan-Arab daily Al-Hayat newspaper.

    Last week the paper claimed that an Arab country had handed to the Mossad a file with details about the leaders of Hamas abroad, including their movements.

    "Now, because of what happened yesterday or through other information, there are indications that this may be the case," Hamdan said.

    Hamdan's comments were echoed on Monday by Syria's official Al Baath newspaper.

    Al Baath editor-in-chief Mahdi Dakhal Allah said Khalil's slaying was "the result of the cooperation of Israel and some Arab security services." He said he had "no evidence" to back up his accusations, but "it seems logical to think that."

    Khalid Amayreh, a West Bank correspondent for the Al Jazeeranet Web site, said although no official source has named the suspected country, all fingers are pointing at Jordan.

    "The feeling here on the street is that Jordan is the number one suspect," he said. "The secret services of Israel and Jordan have traditionally had a close working relationship, especially since the two countries signed a peace agreement in 1995.

    "Many also believe that both countries see the Islamic movement in the region as their main enemy. The Islamic opposition in Jordan is seen by the ruling monarchy as the main obstacle to normalizing relations with Israel."

    Sources close to Hamas in the Gaza Strip said most of the movement's leaders are convinced that Jordan assisted Israel in the assassination.

    "This is the work of the Jordanian mukhabart [intelligence]," a Hamas official told Palestinian reporters. "We have been warned in the past that Jordan was stepping up its security coordination with Israel not only against Hamas, but also against other Palestinian groups. Hamas will find a way to punish the traitors."

    Another Hamas official claimed that initial investigations have indicated that the Mossad agents who allegedly carried out the assassination entered Syria from Iraq.

    "The Mossad is very active these days in Iraq and has many agents working there," he said. "They had no difficulty smuggling the explosives from Iraq."

    PS, there is no proof Jordan helped Israel....read the article....Al Baath editor-in-chief Mahdi Dakhal Allah said Khalil's slaying was "the result of the cooperation of Israel and some Arab security services." He said he had "no evidence" to back up his accusations, but "it seems logical to think that."

    OG

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    if israel strikes iran first im sorry but i hope iran nukes the hell out of israel

    Thank god then that your a very tiny minnow in a very large pond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I'd be wary of believing Israel's intelligence is weak. Look at Mossads strike at the new leader of Hamas in Damascus Sunday morning. Killed him in a surgical car bombing which killed or injuried no one else.
    The cell phone one is my favorite.

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    One problem for Iran is the US just sold Israel 500 bunker buster bombs and most people believe its to take out Iran's underground nuclear sites...

    OG
    those bunker busters only work well with certain materials on the ground.
    when it comes down to certain types of rocks and surfaces they just dont have the penatration power.
    they work well with buildings, concreate and bricks but lack knock-down power on other materials & rocks like granite, marbel and mountain sufaces like in afghanistan.
    depending on how deep the iranians have built there centers & building into the ground and depedning on what material they have packed in and around the buildings will determin how well these bunker busters work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    PS, there is no proof Jordan helped Israel....read the article....Al Baath editor-in-chief Mahdi Dakhal Allah said Khalil's slaying was "the result of the cooperation of Israel and some Arab security services." He said he had "no evidence" to back up his accusations, but "it seems logical to think that."

    OG
    the people and goverments of turkey,jordan and egypt have always been treacherous to the muslims i wouldn't really be suprised if it was any one of these countries helping mossad. infact mossad has always had intelligence ties with these countries and the israeli millitry even trains with the turkish millitry infact when lebanon was being invaded by israel, jordan was helping the SLA and giving israel advice and intelligence on lebanon and was giving israel advice on how to fight hezbollah.
    right now the israelis are using turkish airspace to practice air raids on iranian facilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    those bunker busters only work well with certain materials on the ground.
    when it comes down to certain types of rocks and surfaces they just dont have the penatration power.
    they work well with buildings, concreate and bricks but lack knock-down power on other materials & rocks like granite, marbel and mountain sufaces like in afghanistan.
    depending on how deep the iranians have built there centers & building into the ground and depedning on what material they have packed in and around the buildings will determin how well these bunker busters work.

    Very true PS, but the US has learned a few things from the Iraq and Afgan wars. They have developed a new bonker buster bomb i read somewhere. If i can find the link i will post it. So if these are the "new" bunker busters that problem might not be an issue...?

    OG
    Last edited by OGPackin; 09-28-2004 at 05:05 PM.

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    Physio, you have to admit. Mossad, the IDF/IAF and Israel in general are one kickass son's of bitch's!. Come on buddy, ya gotta admire them!, come on PM me if your afraid to admit it here..

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    the people and goverments of turkey,jordan and egypt have always been treacherous to the muslims i wouldn't really be suprised if it was any one of these countries helping mossad. infact mossad has always had intelligence ties with these countries and the israeli millitry even trains with the turkish millitry infact when lebanon was being invaded by israel, jordan was helping the SLA and giving israel advice and intelligence on lebanon and was giving israel advice on how to fight hezbollah.
    right now the israelis are using turkish airspace to practice air raids on iranian facilities.

    Ohh im not denying Jordan didnt have some kind of hand in this. Whether it be with intelligence or more. Im was just pointing out the facts. The facts are they have no proof and they admit that. So for anyone to say Jordan had something to do with it without proof is just trying to stir up trouble IMHO.

    OG

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Physio, you have to admit. Mossad, the IDF/IAF and Israel in general are one kickass son's of bitch's!. Come on buddy, ya gotta admire them!, come on PM me if your afraid to admit it here..
    what i will admit is that mossad is the BEST in the region and is definently better then all arab intelligence agencies put together and they have pulled of some pretty impressive manuvers BUT it is not on the same level as britan,russia,china and usa on intelligence gathering and secret operations.

    mossad is good at what it does in the middle east but every time it tries to play with the big boys or tries to pull stunts out side of the middle east it always screws up.

    eg.
    http://www.snapshield.com/www_proble...%20suspect.htm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/3916829.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/3896009.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/3910563.stm

    also they killed an innocent waiter in europe.
    and they have killed other INNOCENT people becuase of mistaken identity.

  22. #22
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    Religion is nothing more then something man created because he fears his own mortality... Nothing can convince me otherwise of that... And it's crazy to see how people will kill and murder each other for religion when it is really there just to make them feel better that one day they will meet their end...
    Ironic isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by HULK1732
    just shows how great religion really is when more people die over it then any other cause...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I'd be wary of believing Israel's intelligence is weak. Look at Mossads strike at the new leader of Hamas in Damascus Sunday morning. Killed him in a surgical car bombing which killed or injuried no one else.
    Your actually comparing the killing of one man who wasnt hiding, a great intelligence campaign?

    Anyone can do that.

    I am not saying Mossad is bad at what they do. But going into Iran to gather intelligence will be hard.

    And for the sake of Israel, their one strike better be a good one, because if they hit the wrong target, or miss, there will be huge consequences.

    They didnt even know about Libyas weapons programs.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3576905.stm
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 09-28-2004 at 09:59 PM.

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    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    I wonder if the statement of weakness is to cover up that they already have the targets mapped out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Thank god then that your a very tiny minnow in a very large pond.
    im not sure i understand the relevance could you explain....

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    physio_sport is offline Banned
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    thanks for the links.

    but i still don't think israel will be able to do anything major with thoses bunker busters.
    for those who know how BBs(bunker busters) works they will know that they have to be carried very very high into the air becuase thats when they are most effective at busting stuff.
    israel cant go that high with its current level of fighter jets or bombers and can get nowhere near iran with its current range of f15's & f16's becuase iran has the right types of anti-aircraft missiles to blow all current israeli fighter jets up.
    unless israel gets a stealth fighter/bomber to drop those i just see a recipe for disaster on israels behalf when it screws up ots mission and then gives iran a definate exuse to build nukes.

    becuase as you know rule number 1 about war is you should always leave your enemy hurt so bad that you never fear retaliation and unless israel destroys irans attack capabilities(impossible under any circumstance) israel is the one whose going to get hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    thanks for the links.

    but i still don't think israel will be able to do anything major with thoses bunker busters.
    for those who know how BBs(bunker busters) works they will know that they have to be carried very very high into the air becuase thats when they are most effective at busting stuff.
    israel cant go that high with its current level of fighter jets or bombers and can get nowhere near iran with its current range of f15's & f16's becuase iran has the right types of anti-aircraft missiles to blow all current israeli fighter jets up.
    unless israel gets a stealth fighter/bomber to drop those i just see a recipe for disaster on israels behalf when it screws up ots mission and then gives iran a definate exuse to build nukes.

    becuase as you know rule number 1 about war is you should always leave your enemy hurt so bad that you never fear retaliation and unless israel destroys irans attack capabilities(impossible under any circumstance) israel is the one whose going to get hurt.

    U make valid points ps! But IMHO the US will take care of the situation if need be. I think if the US lets Israel handle the situation it will lead to worse reprisals then if the US did it. Thats just my opinion anyway....

    OG

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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    U make valid points ps! But IMHO the US will take care of the situation if need be. I think if the US lets Israel handle the situation it will lead to worse reprisals then if the US did it. Thats just my opinion anyway....

    OG
    well looking at the way things are in america bush is going to be your president for the next 4 years and do you think he can convince america to start a war with iran which is a fearsom millitry force?
    the uk will most liely not be involved with iraq becuase looking at how things are here labour might not be chosen again and even if they do no one will belive them if they say iran is a threat.

    looks like america and england have cried wolf for the last time and now when there is a real posiblity that a country(iran) is about to go nucluer no will is going to belive the uk or usa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    well looking at the way things are in america bush is going to be your president for the next 4 years and do you think he can convince america to start a war with iran which is a fearsom millitry force?
    the uk will most liely not be involved with iraq becuase looking at how things are here labour might not be chosen again and even if they do no one will belive them if they say iran is a threat.

    looks like america and england have cried wolf for the last time and now when there is a real posiblity that a country(iran) is about to go nucluer no will is going to belive the uk or usa.

    Thats ur opinion and ur entitled to it.....I think if Iran makes a nuke the world is in more trouble then if any other country had one. And believe me the citizens of the US know this.....

    One more thing...Iran doesnt have any weapons (except maybe suicide bombers) that can reach the US, so IMHO thats another valid reason why the US will take care of the situation rather then Israel....

    OG
    Last edited by OGPackin; 09-29-2004 at 02:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._striking_iran


    Israel May Not Be Able to Destroy Nukes

    Mon Sep 27, 9:47 PM ET Add Middle East - AP to My Yahoo!


    By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer

    JERUSALEM - Israel would not be able to destroy Iran's nuclear installations with a single air strike as it did in Iraq (news - web sites) in 1981 because they are scattered or hidden and intelligence is weak, Israeli and foreign analysts say.



    Israeli leaders have implied they might use force against Iran if international diplomatic efforts or the threat of sanctions fail to stop Iran from producing nuclear weapons.


    Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) said this month Israel is "taking measures to defend itself" — a comment that raised concern Israel is considering a pre-emptive strike along the lines of its 1981 bombing of an unfinished Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak near Baghdad.


    Speculation has also been fueled by recent Israeli weapons acquisitions, including bunker-buster bombs and long-range fighter-bombers.


    Israel's national security adviser, Giora Eiland, was quoted Monday by the Maariv daily as saying Iran will reach the "point of no return" in its nuclear weapons program by November rather than next year as Israeli military officials said earlier.


    Concern about Tehran's nuclear development intensified last week when Iran's Vice President Reza Aghazadeh said Iran has started converting raw uranium into the gas needed for enrichment, an important step in making a nuclear bomb.


    The declaration came in defiance of a resolution passed three days earlier by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog, demanding Iran freeze all uranium enrichment — including conversion. The group's 35-nation board of governors warned that Iran risked being taken before the U.N. Security Council, which could impose sanctions.


    President Bush (news - web sites) reiterated in an interview broadcast Monday evening that he would not tolerate Iran having nuclear weapons.


    "My hope is that we can solve this diplomatically," Bush said on Fox News Channel's "The O'Reilly Factor." "We are working our hearts out so that they don't develop a nuclear weapon, and the best way to do so is to continue to keep international pressure on them."


    Pressed on whether he would allow Iran to build a bomb, Bush said: "No, we've made it clear, our position is that they won't have a nuclear weapon."


    Iran denies it is developing nuclear weapons, saying its nuclear development program is aimed at generating electricity. Israel and other countries, including the United States, doubt that.


    Recent Israeli weapons purchases could be crucial in a possible strike.


    In February, Israel received the first of 102 American-built F-16I warplanes, the largest weapons deal in its history. Military sources say the planes were specially designed with extra fuel tanks to allow them to reach Iran.


    In June, it signed a $319 million deal to acquire nearly 5,000 U.S.-made smart bombs, including 500 "bunker busters" that can destroy six-foot concrete walls, such as those that might be found in Iranian nuclear facilities.


    Military and strategic analysts in Israel and abroad say even with the new weaponry, Israel lacks the ability to carry out a successful strike against Iran's nuclear installations.


    "You have to have solid intelligence, you have to know what to hit ... The intelligence on Iran is very weak," said Alex Vatanka, an expert on Iranian security issues at Jane's Sentinel Security Assessments in London.


    Israeli strategic analyst Reuven Pedatzur pointed to a claim last year by Iranian opposition figures that foreign intelligence services have been unaware of two of the Iranian nuclear facilities.





    "There is no good intelligence on Iran, and this is the proof," he said. "Any Israeli attack on Iran would cause huge political damage, and in the end, the program would proceed."

    After Israel attacked the Osirak reactor, it came in for worldwide criticism. Arab opposition to an Israeli strike against Iran — particularly if it appeared to be unprovoked — would likely be widespread and intense. It could lead to attacks against Israeli and Jewish institutions abroad and condemnations from the United Nations (news - web sites).

    Other difficulties in attacking Iran's nuclear facilities include their dispersal throughout the country, their sophisticated defense systems and the likelihood that some of the installations have been replicated, said Cliff Kupchan, vice president of the Nixon Center in Washington, a former Clinton administration Iranian expert who met with Iranian officials during a visit there last year.

    Kupchan said IAEA threats to impose sanctions on Iraq are unrealistic, because U.N members, including those with fledging nuclear programs, such as Brazil, would be reluctant to back them.

    Sanctions against Iranian oil production are also unlikely when world demand is about 80 million barrels per day, prices are sky-high, and the only surplus capacity — about 2 million barrels per day from Saudi Arabia — is heavy oil the market usually shuns. Iran exports about 2.6 million barrels per day.

    Kupchan said if diplomacy fails, there may be no choice but for the United States to lead a concerted military campaign against Iran. "If the U.S. moves aggressively, it won't be sanctions, it will be a coalition of the willing," he said.

    Speaking at the United Nations last week, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom appeared to back him up.

    "The time has come to move the Iranian case to the Security Council in order to put an end to this nightmare," Shalom said.
    Physio, you too should be worried about Iran producing nuclear bombs. If Iran gets to a point where it can launch a missile that will reach Israel, that missile will also be able to reach Europe. This problem with Iran isn't only Israel's or the US's. It's Europe's problem too and your leaders know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HULK1732
    HaHa im right there with you bro, **** is ****ing ridiculous, this people need to get in check with reality, killing each other every ****ing day over religion. just shows how great religion really is when more people die over it then any other cause...
    This conflict isn't over religion. You should know that before you post on the issue.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    im not sure i understand...

    We know....

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    ok take my words out of context....that shows what high intellect you possess. Dont be mad because i have a diff opinion than you on your war torn middle east....

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    Thats ur opinion and ur entitled to it.....I think if Iran makes a nuke the world is in more trouble then if any other country had one. And believe me the citizens of the US know this.....
    Why is that? Has Iran attacked any country? You people are so brainwashed. Iran never meddled in the US's business, but it is America that is always meddling in Iran's business. Thanks to the Americans Khomeni came into power. Now the US is trying to cause a revolution in Iran?

    Let me guess you will say the Zionist thing to say that Iran supports terrorists?

    As proven 100's of times Hizbollah is not a terrorist group.

    One more thing...Iran doesnt have any weapons (except maybe suicide bombers) that can reach the US, so IMHO thats another valid reason why the US will take care of the situation rather then Israel....

    OG
    Iran has weapons. They are self-sufficient. They make alot of their Planes and weapons.

    That is why the Zionists are scared to death, and need to strike a blow in the Persian Empire's heart, before its too late.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 09-30-2004 at 12:46 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Physio, you too should be worried about Iran producing nuclear bombs. If Iran gets to a point where it can launch a missile that will reach Israel, that missile will also be able to reach Europe. This problem with Iran isn't only Israel's or the US's. It's Europe's problem too and your leaders know it.
    Wow. As I have mentioned Iran isnt a threat to anyone. It will not attack unless attacked. Name when they have invaded their neighbours? Unlike Israel.

    You cannot stop the Persians, they are a race I have faith in. Intelligent, forward moving race. You cannot stop them from doing what they want, you might slow them down, but if they want Nukes, they will get it eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Iran has weapons. They are self-sufficient. They make alot of their Planes and weapons.
    yeah the iranian have employed the self-sufficancy thing for decades.
    they build everything from submarines(baby),silkworm antiship cruise missiles,rpgs,trucks,armoured personnel carries,helicopter & heli gunships,
    cruise missiles, rocket artillery, guided bombs, fighter jets, ballistic missiles scud type, ballistic missiles medium & long range & Toophan(upgraded TOW missiles) and dozens of other guided missiles.
    http://www.janes.com/aerospace/milit...0526_2_n.shtml

    most people in the west don't understand how advanced irans millitry is.
    it is not something that is worth messing around with becuase out of all the countries in the world that usa and britan have fought with its the only country that has the capabilities to attack back in our countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Why is that? Has Iran attacked any country? You people are so brainwashed. Iran never meddled in the US's business, but it is America that is always meddling in Iran's business. Thanks to the Americans Khomeni came into power. Now the US is trying to cause a revolution in Iran?

    Let me guess you will say the Zionist thing to say that Iran supports terrorists?

    As proven 100's of times Hizbollah is not a terrorist group.



    Iran has weapons. They are self-sufficient. They make alot of their Planes and weapons.

    That is why the Zionists are scared to death, and need to strike a blow in the Persian Empire's heart, before its too late.
    Caus u are so pathetic! calling me brainwashed is like the kettle calling the pot black!

    Lets make a deal....U dont respond to my posts and i wont respond to ur posts. Hows that...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Wow. As I have mentioned Iran isnt a threat to anyone. It will not attack unless attacked. Name when they have invaded their neighbours? Unlike Israel.

    You cannot stop the Persians, they are a race I have faith in. Intelligent, forward moving race. You cannot stop them from doing what they want, you might slow them down, but if they want Nukes, they will get it eventually.

    Announcements...Announcements....Since Caus says Iran isnt a threat to anyone we can all breath a sigh of relief.... Gimme a friggin break aleady...

    OG

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    Quote Originally Posted by OGPackin
    Lets make a deal....U dont respond to my posts and i wont respond to ur posts. Hows that...?
    Sorry, No deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    ok take my words out of context....that shows what high intellect you possess. Dont be mad because i have a diff opinion than you on your war torn middle east....
    How can you be mad at a person who won't make the effort to learn even when he has all the tools to do so? The most you can do is feel pitty. Knowledge is power, and if you chose not to gain that power even when you have access to so much of it, then it's a poor decision only you should be mad at yourself for.

    Now, back to the "taking your words out of context" part.

    When you wrote this:
    "i dont know if i have "had enough" of israel per se but i have had enough of the middle east as a whole and if we can get rid of 2 birds with one stone without having to put our troops in harms way ill be happy......"
    I didn't reply. Quoting a part of the "I don't understand" post was my response to the above post. I didn't explain that, of course, and so obviously you didn't understand the connection and the reason behind it. Now please expain and demonstrate, if you don't mind, your views about my intelect. Thanks.

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