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  1. #1
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    About the Koran’s violent verses

    The Koran was written in two major parts. These have been integrated and arranged by chapter length as opposed to the chronological order in which they were initially written. The first part was penned in the early years of the Islamic movement while Mohammed was living in Mecca, Arabia. The experts boast the verses from these chapters as proof that Islam is a bastion of peace, love, and tolerance. They avoid references to verses from the second and largest portion of the Koran. It was written after the movement increased in strength and relocated its headquarters to Medina, Arabia. These verses often reflect religious intolerance and encourage cruel hostility towards non-Muslims. Here are two examples that were aimed at Jews, Christians, and Arabs that clung to traditional tribal polytheistic beliefs. – So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush…. (Koran 9:5) The only punishment of those that wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut-off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned…. (Koran 5:33) The contradictions between various verses are no problem for Muslim scholars and clerics. They have the doctrine of "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated) to cover the mystery of Allah’s apparent duplicity. If two separate verses in the Koran are contradictory, the verse that was written last in the chronological order of the original writing abrogates the earlier verse and renders it null and void. This doctrine is based on the Koran, where Allah allegedly says in 2:106, "Whatever message We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it. Knowest thou not that Allah is Possessor of power over all things?" One of Islam's classical reference books is entitled, The Abrogator and the Abrogated. The author, Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr, goes through every chapter in the Koran and details each verse that has been canceled and the verse that has replaced it. He noted that of the Koran’s 114 chapters, only 43 were unaffected by this doctrine.

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    maybe u need to read your bible bro ! .............. i can give u a dozen of hate verses from it too ! please show me some facts and then we can talk all u r doing here is making yourself look like a fool IMO

  3. #3
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    Hey Zoaib, Id like to see the hate verses from the bible. Could you post them please??

    max

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    bump

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    "Take all the heads of the people
    and hang them up before the Lord
    against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4

    God (YHWH) threatens to KILL
    INFANTS & PREGNANT MOTHERS!

    "...They shall fall by the sword:
    their infants shall be dashed in
    pieces, and their women with child
    (pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
    direct quote from YHWH -- Hosea 13:16

    "Their children shall be dashed
    to pieces before their eyes!
    There houses spoiled, and their
    wives raped...Dash the young men
    to pieces...have no pity on the
    fruit of the womb, the children
    shall not be spared"
    -- Isa 13:16-18

    “And he went up from thence unto Bethel:
    and as he was going up by the way,
    there came forth little children
    out of the city, and mocked him,
    and said unto him, Go up, thou
    bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    And he turned back, and looked on
    them, and cursed them in the name
    of the Lord. And there came forth
    two she bears out of the wood, and
    tare forty and two children of them.”
    -- 2kings2:23-24

    ( THIS verse above specifically shows that a person being teased by some kids , being called bald curses them and bears eat all of them up , nice stuff ..... )

    GOD KILLS 70,000 OF HIS OWN
    WORSHIPERS!

    King David took a census of Israel.
    So God butchers 70,000 for innocently
    following their king.
    (1Chron 21:2,7,14).


    also realising your first argument is going to be about how these things are taken out of context , and show hate , well ill tell u the same thing , in the quran if u read kill the jews kill the non believers out of context then yeah its filled with hate .............

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    "Take all the heads of the people
    and hang them up before the Lord
    against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4

    God (YHWH) threatens to KILL
    INFANTS & PREGNANT MOTHERS!

    "...They shall fall by the sword:
    their infants shall be dashed in
    pieces, and their women with child
    (pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
    direct quote from YHWH -- Hosea 13:16

    "Their children shall be dashed
    to pieces before their eyes!
    There houses spoiled, and their
    wives raped...Dash the young men
    to pieces...have no pity on the
    fruit of the womb, the children
    shall not be spared"
    -- Isa 13:16-18

    “And he went up from thence unto Bethel:
    and as he was going up by the way,
    there came forth little children
    out of the city, and mocked him,
    and said unto him, Go up, thou
    bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    And he turned back, and looked on
    them, and cursed them in the name
    of the Lord. And there came forth
    two she bears out of the wood, and
    tare forty and two children of them.”
    -- 2kings2:23-24

    ( THIS verse above specifically shows that a person being teased by some kids , being called bald curses them and bears eat all of them up , nice stuff ..... )

    GOD KILLS 70,000 OF HIS OWN
    WORSHIPERS!

    King David took a census of Israel.
    So God butchers 70,000 for innocently
    following their king.
    (1Chron 21:2,7,14).


    also realising your first argument is going to be about how these things are taken out of context , and show hate , well ill tell u the same thing , in the quran if u read kill the jews kill the non believers out of context then yeah its filled with hate .............
    I think the difference is that the Koran says things that should be done by men now, and always, and the bible says things that happened before and/or that God himself did more so than what people should do. I just got that impression from the short reads above. Not making any definitive statements as I have not read the Koran, and I don't want to interpret things out of context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muscle justice
    Here are two examples that were aimed at Jews, Christians, and Arabs that clung to traditional tribal polytheistic beliefs. – So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush…. (Koran 9:5)
    You dont understand how much pleasure I get showing these Quranic verses in context, so here it goes.

    First of all this verse is NOT aimed at Christians and Jews. It was a verse for the Pagans who were out to kill of all the small miniority of Muslims. So GOD gave down a verse, guiding Muslims in the particular fight. This verse is time specific, meaning it was for that time, and the tense of the sentence clearly states.

    Now for that verse in context -

    [9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.

    [9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.

    [9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

    [9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

    [9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

    [9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

    [9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.


    Doesnt that change the whole context?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilster
    I think the difference is that the Koran says things that should be done by men now, and always, and the bible says things that happened before and/or that God himself did more so than what people should do.
    There are some time specific verses in the Quran, the one I quoted above, is time specific, which it clearly shows. It deals with a particular battle with the idol worshipers.

  9. #9
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    Good point I think for Gilster...Zoaib, do you know any verses in the bible that has God tell his people to kill or act violently towards another person? I dont think there is. It is God doing all of the killing of the evil people.

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    Caucasion, you say that these quotes were not directed at the Christians and Jews...But I tell you and everyone that reads this post as straight forward as I can, Islam God and Christian God are NOT the same. You can argue all you want that you believe they are, but if I say they arent, then that makes me, a christian, an idol worshipper does it not? Hence I would be killed. And everyone else who did not worship the Islam God. Am I wrong? Or are you saying Christians and Jews are exempt because muslims believe the Christian/Jewish God is the same as the Islamic God, so we cant be punished because we are 'ignorant'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Caucasion, you say that these quotes were not directed at the Christians and Jews...But I tell you and everyone that reads this post as straight forward as I can, Islam God and Christian God are NOT the same. You can argue all you want that you believe they are, but if I say they arent, then that makes me, a christian, an idol worshipper does it not? Hence I would be killed. And everyone else who did not worship the Islam God. Am I wrong? Or are you saying Christians and Jews are exempt because muslims believe the Christian/Jewish God is the same as the Islamic God, so we cant be punished because we are 'ignorant'?
    No this passage was a specific battle scene, where the Idol worshipper in Mecca who were Pagans were getting aggressive against Muslims. It wasnt Christians or Jews in the SPECIFIC battle, but Arab Meccan Pagans versus the Muslims.

    And you can belive what you want, but the GOD OF ABRAHAM is the same for all religions. I dont belive in you version of GOD, aka Jesus. But early Christianians worshipped the same GOD as the Jews.

    Jews will tell you they dont belive in the same GOD as Christians do todaybecause Christians belive Jesus is GOD.

    So if you want to look at it your way, none of these three religions belive in the same GOD.

    But Islam says all the three religions worship the same GOD.

    But those passages from the Quran has nothing to do with Christianity or Judaism, it was a battle against Arab Meccan Pagans who used to worship Idols in the Kaaba.

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    I dont know that Jews say their God is different than the Christian God, I think Jews and Christians believe pretty much the same thing and in the same God, just Jews do not believe Jesus was the mesiah.

    Thanks for clarifying that passage up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I dont know that Jews say their God is different than the Christian God, I think Jews and Christians believe pretty much the same thing and in the same God, just Jews do not believe Jesus was the mesiah.

    Thanks for clarifying that passage up.
    You as a Christian belive Jesus is GOD or part of GOD, right?

    Now ask any Jew if he belives Jesus is GOD or part of GOD, he will deny it definetly.

    So how can you say Christians and Jews belive in the same GOD?

  14. #14
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    I would like to recommend a book called prophet of doom, its about mohamed and hos pact with satan...... I mean allah......

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdawg21
    I would like to recommend a book called prophet of doom, its about mohamed and hos pact with satan...... I mean allah......
    Here is the rebuttal to that book, the rebuttal is not finished, but it will be soon.


    http://www.answering-christianity.co...k_rebuttal.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    You as a Christian belive Jesus is GOD or part of GOD, right?

    Now ask any Jew if he belives Jesus is GOD or part of GOD, he will deny it definetly.

    So how can you say Christians and Jews belive in the same GOD?
    I need an answer max2extreme

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    Jesus was not God or a piece of God, he was the son of God in the Christian faith.

    You are right, Jews would deny that Jesus was a mesiah. But I don't see Jews loping off the heads of Christians because they believe Jesus was the son of God, whereas Muslims still to this day are persecuting other religious minorities. For instance in Saudi Arabia, you can be jailed for an indefinte period of time for preaching Christianity if you approach/offend the wrong people. I only know that because I did a paper on Saudi Arabia in which I included an example from Amnesty International's website which told the story of one such individual.

    And to respond to your last question, because as you yourself said, the three major Western religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all believe in the same God. They all just celebrate God in different manners and have cultivated their religion along three distinctly different paths.

    Fpot66
    Last edited by Fpot66; 10-14-2004 at 05:54 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I need an answer max2extreme
    Hold your horses.. I do need to sleep sometimes. hehe. I sent an email to my pastor before I went to bed and here's his reply, which I stand corrected:
    ************************************************** ********
    Your Muslim friend is right. We don't worship the same God as the Jews or
    the Muslims. In respect to the Muslims, they deny the God of the Bible.
    They have concocted a god as revealed in the Koran. The Jews as well only
    know part of God. The sticking point with both of these religions is Jesus
    Christ. In that they have denied the deity of Christ, they have rejected
    the full revelation of God and therefore have made a god of their own.

    Here are some good pages to look at -
    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol..._theology.html
    Take notice of the section on Religious Pluralism, Syncretism, Relativism,
    Tolerance about 3/4 of the way down
    ************************************************** ********

    I am going to talk to him more on this subject though about what I originally thought and what he kinda says here "The Jews as well only know part of God". Which is what I meant, that true they dont believe in Jesus, BUT the "part of God" they believe is the same as what I think the Christian God is. and once they believe in Jesus, the other half will be added to the half they did believe making it 100% the same. This is just my personal thought process, so dont take it like Im talking for christianity... I will persue this issue with him though so I may learn.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Hold your horses.. I do need to sleep sometimes. hehe. I sent an email to my pastor before I went to bed and here's his reply, which I stand corrected:
    ************************************************** ********
    Your Muslim friend is right. We don't worship the same God as the Jews or
    the Muslims. In respect to the Muslims, they deny the God of the Bible.
    They have concocted a god as revealed in the Koran. The Jews as well only
    know part of God. The sticking point with both of these religions is Jesus
    Christ. In that they have denied the deity of Christ, they have rejected
    the full revelation of God and therefore have made a god of their own.

    Here are some good pages to look at -
    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol..._theology.html
    Take notice of the section on Religious Pluralism, Syncretism, Relativism,
    Tolerance about 3/4 of the way down
    ************************************************** ********

    I am going to talk to him more on this subject though about what I originally thought and what he kinda says here "The Jews as well only know part of God". Which is what I meant, that true they dont believe in Jesus, BUT the "part of God" they believe is the same as what I think the Christian God is. and once they believe in Jesus, the other half will be added to the half they did believe making it 100% the same. This is just my personal thought process, so dont take it like Im talking for christianity... I will persue this issue with him though so I may learn.
    u may wanna ask your preacher , can he explain why Abraham and Moses preached of ONE GOD , not a triune GOD ........... also it varies from one christian to another how they believe if the muslims GOD is different from the Christian GOD ............ if the same GOD created adam n eve , noah , jacob , joseph , david , moses , abraham and he created the DEVIL , the angels then how is he so different form the muslims GOD , the only problem is u make it so , since that gives u uniqueness in your religion , and all we muslims say is he never begotten a SON .......... thats all , i really dont think that this one thing can change the overall concept of GOD between the muslims n the christians ....... this is a very argumentative topic , but i think u will benefit more knowledge on this issue form your pastor or anyone who can help u cause , i think its a major part of faith to know who GOD and which one he really is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fpot66
    Jesus was not God or a piece of God, he was the son of God in the Christian faith.

    You are right, Jews would deny that Jesus was a mesiah. But I don't see Jews loping off the heads of Christians because they believe Jesus was the son of God, whereas Muslims still to this day are persecuting other religious minorities. For instance in Saudi Arabia, you can be jailed for an indefinte period of time for preaching Christianity if you approach/offend the wrong people. I only know that because I did a paper on Saudi Arabia in which I included an example from Amnesty International's website which told the story of one such individual.

    And to respond to your last question, because as you yourself said, the three major Western religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all believe in the same God. They all just celebrate God in different manners and have cultivated their religion along three distinctly different paths.

    Fpot66
    Thanks, so some Christians like max2extreme believe that Jesus was part of GOD, or GOD himself, and some Christians only belive he was the son of GOD?

    And I know some Christians that agree with me as to the fact that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam belive in the same GOD, but in different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    which I stand corrected
    That is two times were you have been corrected.

    So according to you and your pastor, you dont belive in the same GOD as Jews?

    BUT Jesus worshipped the Jewish GOD, correct?

    So you arent worshipping the same GOD as Jesus?

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    The major religions of earth, which account for roughly 80% of the worlds populations have the following facts in common.

    1. One God
    2. One Messiah
    3. One Book.....Bible, Koran, etc.
    4. Heaven and Hell
    5. A path to Heaven
    6. A path to hell

    My conclusion and mine only.

    We all have one God, but what and how we call him changed because of the intervention of man. Man is imperfect, so man makes mistakes or interprets wrongly and it becomes doctrine, then it is carried on as truth when it may or may not be so. Man acting without the authority of God, but with good intentions, is still man acting alone, and mistakes WILL be made. There is no way around that. Not all we read is from God and not all we read is from man. Because of mans errors we now have a lot of truth and a lot of mistakes in scriptures. The Key is to find which was done under the direction of God and which is of man. Since we are mere men we will make mistakes and choose wrong sometimes. Just a vicious circle really.

    The one thing I know beyond a shadow of doubt though is this. Jesus Christ is the son of God. He died for us and took upon himself the sins of the world. He died on the cross and was resurected on the 3rd day. He rose to heaven and became one with God. This I believe without a miniscule doubt....But I am man, so I may have made a mistake.....I just know that I have not made a mistake. I am happy with this and my life is blessed because of it. I have felt the touch of God and I have no doubt in my beliefs. There is too much proof in my life to deny it.
    Last edited by Gilster; 10-14-2004 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilster
    The major religions of earth, which account for roughly 80% of the worlds populations have the following facts in common.

    1. One God
    2. One Messiah
    3. One Book.....Bible, Koran, etc.
    4. Heaven and Hell
    5. A path to Heaven
    6. A path to hell

    My conclusion and mine only.

    We all have one God, but what and how we call him changed because of the intervention of man. Man is imperfect, so man makes mistakes or interprets wrongly and it becomes doctrine, then it is carried on as truth when it may or may not be so. Man acting without the authority of God, but with good intentions, is still man acting alone, and mistakes WILL be made. There is no way around that. Not all we read is from God and not all we read is from man. Because of mans errors we now have a lot of truth and a lot of mistakes in scriptures. The Key is to find which was done under the direction of God and which is of man. Since we a mere men we will make mistakes and choose wrong sometimes. Just a vicious circle really.

    The one thing I know beyond a shadow of doubt though is this. Jesus Christ is the son of God. He died for us and took upon himself the sins of the world. He died on the cross and was resurected on the 3rd day. He rose to heaven and became one with God. This I believe without a miniscule doubt....But I am man, so I may have made a mistake.....I just know I have not made a mistake. I am happy with this and my life is blessed because of it. I have felt the touch of God and I have no doubt in my beliefs. There is too much proof in my life to deny it.
    Good Post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Good Post.
    That's because it came from a Christian...lol..j/k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilster
    That's because it came from a Christian...lol..j/k
    My boss, is a born again Christian. He had some hard times recently, and really wasnt religious. But then I told him go to your Church everytime and find GOD. He went to Church, and honestly found happiness. I am sure you know what it means. He felt demons were controlling him, and this finding religion thing, helped him out, through hard times. A relationship between yourself and GOD, that makes you happy or "high", a sort of nirvana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    So according to you and your pastor, you dont belive in the same GOD as Jews?

    BUT Jesus worshipped the Jewish GOD, correct?

    So you arent worshipping the same GOD as Jesus?
    Again max2extreme, I am curious to hear your answer. Even if it means you get no sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fpot66
    Jesus was not God or a piece of God, he was the son of God in the Christian faith.

    You are right, Jews would deny that Jesus was a mesiah. But I don't see Jews loping off the heads of Christians because they believe Jesus was the son of God, whereas Muslims still to this day are persecuting other religious minorities. For instance in Saudi Arabia, you can be jailed for an indefinte period of time for preaching Christianity if you approach/offend the wrong people. I only know that because I did a paper on Saudi Arabia in which I included an example from Amnesty International's website which told the story of one such individual.

    And to respond to your last question, because as you yourself said, the three major Western religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all believe in the same God. They all just celebrate God in different manners and have cultivated their religion along three distinctly different paths.

    Fpot66

    i would disagree with some of your comments about the christian faith. if you believe in the holy trinity, then you do infact believe Jesus(pbuh) is part of God Almighty. they believe that God walked the earth as Jesus(pbuh). so you have Jesus(pbuh) as the son of God, part God, and the Messiah. i growing up a christian am very familiar with doctrines. why if Jesus(pbuh) is part God, did he pray to God 'to let the cup pass away from him' while he was in the garden? if Jesus(pbuh) is God in the flesh and God on earth, why was he praying to himself? Jesus commanded his people to worship God. as in Mark 12:29 when he said, "Here, O Israel: The Lord, our God, is one Lord." now, if he was part of God, why didnt he say 'here o israel: i am the lord, thy God, worship me?'. now, the jews never accepted Jesus(pbuh) as anything, not the messiah, not the exclusive son of God, not part of God. so i would imagine the jews probably think they are worshiping a different God than the christians or that the christians are pretty messed up, just as the christians believe the muslims are messed up. i think both muslims and jews can agree that the whole doctrine of trinity is gross misinterpretation. but we shall see...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingsofazrael
    i growing up a christian am very familiar with doctrines.
    You should speak to ZOAIB, he is similiar to you, he grew up Christian to. Are you American?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingsofazrael
    i would disagree with some of your comments about the christian faith. if you believe in the holy trinity, then you do infact believe Jesus(pbuh) is part of God Almighty. they believe that God walked the earth as Jesus(pbuh). so you have Jesus(pbuh) as the son of God, part God, and the Messiah. i growing up a christian am very familiar with doctrines. why if Jesus(pbuh) is part God, did he pray to God 'to let the cup pass away from him' while he was in the garden? if Jesus(pbuh) is God in the flesh and God on earth, why was he praying to himself? Jesus commanded his people to worship God. as in Mark 12:29 when he said, "Here, O Israel: The Lord, our God, is one Lord." now, if he was part of God, why didnt he say 'here o israel: i am the lord, thy God, worship me?'. now, the jews never accepted Jesus(pbuh) as anything, not the messiah, not the exclusive son of God, not part of God. so i would imagine the jews probably think they are worshiping a different God than the christians or that the christians are pretty messed up, just as the christians believe the muslims are messed up. i think both muslims and jews can agree that the whole doctrine of trinity is gross misinterpretation. but we shall see...

    i agree with u here its exactly what my christian family practiced .........

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