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  1. #1
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    ABRAHAM not a JEW !

    Can you show me where in the Bible it says that he was a Jew? If you can't find it quickly, let me help you. Read Genesis 11:31.

    "And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in-law, his son Abram's wife, and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran and dwelt there."

    So Abraham who was born in Ur of Chaldees could not have been a Jew. First because Ur of Chaldees was in Mesopotamia, which is now a part of Iraq. He was then more an Arab than a Jew. Secondly the name "Jew" came after the existence of Judah, the great grandson of Abraham (see chart on page 4). Read further, Genesis 12:4 and 5.

    " ... and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.... and into the land of Canaan they came.

    So Abraham emigrated to Canaan at the age of seventy five and the Bible clearly mentioned that he was there a stranger m Genesis 17:8: "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Read now Genesis 14:13.

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    "And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew.... " M. How can you call Abraham a Jew if the Bible itself calls him a Hebrew which means a man from the other side of the Euphrates. It also means pertaining to Eber, a descendant of Shem. Read now in Genesis 32:28 what happened to the name of Jacob after wrestling with an angel.

    "And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.'"

    REBUTAL

    So Abraham was a Hebrew. The descendants of Jacob were Israelites consisting of the twelve tribes. Judah was nicknamed "Jew" so that only Judah's descendants were called Jews originally. To know who Moses really was, read Exodus 6:16-20

    "And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Ghershon, and Kohath, and Merari.... And the sons of Kohath: Amram.... And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bore him Aaron and Moses."

    So Moses was not a Jew, because he was not descended from Judah, but a Levite. Moses was the "law giver" (Torah is law) to the children of Israel.

    INTERESTING ARGUMENT ! hope no one takes this the wrong way !

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    http://www.iad.org/books/MCD.html

    the source of this argument !

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    Dunno about Abraham, but Noah's wife was French, for sure.
    Her name was Joan . . . Joan of Ark . . .
    --Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Dunno about Abraham, but Noah's wife was French, for sure.
    Her name was Joan . . . Joan of Ark . . .
    --Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Dunno about Abraham, but Noah's wife was French, for sure.
    Her name was Joan . . . Joan of Ark . . .
    --Tock
    quite clever tock

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    Abraham is a founding father of Judaism. He receieved the covenant with God--which included circumcision. This was passed to his son Isaac, to Jaccob, and eventually to Moses. The term "Jew" is used to refer to the descendents of "Judah", it is a shorthand used to describe the semites/hebrews that followed a particular diety. And the term "Jew" isn't necessarily correct as many Hebrews are descended from the tribe of Levi.

    I know it's important to Muslims that Abraham is not a Jew. And this is my major problem with Islam--the need to discredit other religions.

    There's really no point in arguing with you anymore ZOAIB. You believe what you belive because your told to believe it.

    The source your quoting is a contrived joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    Abraham is a founding father of Judaism. He receieved the covenant with God--which included circumcision. This was passed to his son Isaac, to Jaccob, and eventually to Moses. The term "Jew" is used to refer to the descendents of "Judah", it is a shorthand used to describe the semites/hebrews that followed a particular diety. And the term "Jew" isn't necessarily correct as many Hebrews are descended from the tribe of Levi.

    I know it's important to Muslims that Abraham is not a Jew. And this is my major problem with Islam--the need to discredit other religions.

    There's really no point in arguing with you anymore ZOAIB. You believe what you belive because your told to believe it.

    The source your quoting is a contrived joke.

    well for u it must be a joke , but can u make a rebutal to the whole thing ????

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    God does not dwell in structures.....hence the rending of the temple veil......God dwells
    in men through his spirit......hence we should give up any structure or land which causes strife cause it has nothing to do with God.......that is where fundamentalist christians are making a BIG mistake......allowing the repression of people over land and the view that somehow they will usher in the millenium......when in fact Jesus will rebuke them for their ill treatment of their neighbors

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    well for u it must be a joke , but can u make a rebutal to the whole thing ????
    There's really nothing to rebut. The whole argument relies on mincing of words. You're redefining the word "Jew" (which ancient Jews never called themselves). Ancient Jews referred to themselves as "Hebrews". This is the only word used in the bible when the Israelites are speaking of themselves to foreigners.

    Furthermore, a Semite is a member of a group of people that speak semetic languages; this group of languages includes Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. They are not ethnically differentiated from surrounding groups. Hence the ethnic differentiation between Arab and Jew is pointless--they are the same.

    Of course Moshe wasn't a descendent of Judah--though he was a Hebrew and a Levite at that. Why does that matter? He's still a Jew by the modern definition of the word.

    Claiming that the founding fathers of Judaism weren't Jews by mincing the definition of the word "Jew" is a vaccuous argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    There's really nothing to rebut. The whole argument relies on mincing of words. You're redefining the word "Jew" (which ancient Jews never called themselves). Ancient Jews referred to themselves as "Hebrews". This is the only word used in the bible when the Israelites are speaking of themselves to foreigners.

    Furthermore, a Semite is a member of a group of people that speak semetic languages; this group of languages includes Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. They are not ethnically differentiated from surrounding groups. Hence the ethnic differentiation between Arab and Jew is pointless--they are the same.

    Of course Moshe wasn't a descendent of Judah--though he was a Hebrew and a Levite at that. Why does that matter? He's still a Jew by the modern definition of the word.

    Claiming that the founding fathers of Judaism weren't Jews by mincing the definition of the word "Jew" is a vaccuous argument.
    actually its not , what u consider judaisim is basically after the law TORAH , Moses brought to your from GOD ! and the pure sense of judaisim is from the present and tracks back to moses ............ so if u say circumcision and fasting and all other covenants which were given to Abraham , made him a jew , since these are the covenants of the jews , i can also say he is a muslim cause we have the same covenants , and also he bleieved in ONE GOD , just like how we do !!!!!!

    my intention is not to defy judaisim , but just to place a pretty valid point , cause being a hebrew and being jew are very different in nature , since according to u which i agree the proper definiton of being jewish is what u have form the TORAH to the present day , none of the prophets were following the torah before moses cause it wasnt revealed , hence u cannot call them jewish , but they were following the universal commandments which GOD has laid since Adam n Eve !

    also just wanna let u know i dont bring these things up to piss ppl off , i like to discuss these things it increases my knowledge and gives me an oppourtunity to talk to some sensible ppl .......... but i appologise if u take anythign i have said in the negative sense

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    3 covenants in the Hebrew Bible.

    1.) Noah, and the 7 Noahide laws
    2.) The covenant with Abraham
    3.) The covenant with Moses

    The religion of Judaism was created with 2nd covenant with Abraham. This was refined and reissued to his descendents through Moses on Sanai. God "chose" Abraham and his descendents specifically to bear this covenant.

    Furthermore Jews beleive that Abraham (and all of the patriarchs) knew about and followed the laws in the Torah--before it was given at Sanai.

    I'm not religious in the least. I am trying to argue facts from an educated viewpoint. Things are much more complicated than your religion teaches you. And it has confirmed my suspicions that Islam is not an intellectual religion.

    Furthermore the titles of your threads and the tone of the articles you plagarize are inflammatory. Maybe the title of my next thread will be "MOHAMMED WAS A FAKE". Or "THE QU'RAN WAS CORRUPTED".




    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    actually its not , what u consider judaisim is basically after the law TORAH , Moses brought to your from GOD ! and the pure sense of judaisim is from the present and tracks back to moses ............ so if u say circumcision and fasting and all other covenants which were given to Abraham , made him a jew , since these are the covenants of the jews , i can also say he is a muslim cause we have the same covenants , and also he bleieved in ONE GOD , just like how we do !!!!!!

    my intention is not to defy judaisim , but just to place a pretty valid point , cause being a hebrew and being jew are very different in nature , since according to u which i agree the proper definiton of being jewish is what u have form the TORAH to the present day , none of the prophets were following the torah before moses cause it wasnt revealed , hence u cannot call them jewish , but they were following the universal commandments which GOD has laid since Adam n Eve !

    also just wanna let u know i dont bring these things up to piss ppl off , i like to discuss these things it increases my knowledge and gives me an oppourtunity to talk to some sensible ppl .......... but i appologise if u take anythign i have said in the negative sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    3 covenants in the Hebrew Bible.

    1.) Noah, and the 7 Noahide laws
    2.) The covenant with Abraham
    3.) The covenant with Moses

    The religion of Judaism was created with 2nd covenant with Abraham. This was refined and reissued to his descendents through Moses on Sanai. God "chose" Abraham and his descendents specifically to bear this covenant.

    Furthermore Jews beleive that Abraham (and all of the patriarchs) knew about and followed the laws in the Torah--before it was given at Sanai.

    I'm not religious in the least. I am trying to argue facts from an educated viewpoint. Things are much more complicated than your religion teaches you. And it has confirmed my suspicions that Islam is not an intellectual religion.

    Furthermore the titles of your threads and the tone of the articles you plagarize are inflammatory. Maybe the title of my next thread will be "MOHAMMED WAS A FAKE". Or "THE QU'RAN WAS CORRUPTED".

    an so it shall be done , i wont bring this topic to a point where we both have to disrespect each other ! but is islam credible or not , well we will all find out , when we die ......... since death is a fact !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    1.) Noah, and the 7 Noahide laws


    "Noahide?" Is that anything like "Naugahide?"

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    I know it's important to Muslims that Abraham is not a Jew. And this is my major problem with Islam--the need to discredit other
    Dont all religions try to discredit other religions?

    Do you have any other factual text other than the Jewish and Christian holy books that say Abraham was a Jew?

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    Plus Muslims believe that all the Prophets were following the true word of GOD, which to Muslims is Allah. So to Muslims Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc etc were following the word of Allah.

    Thus making them Muslims. Muslim is a word. Jew is a word.

    I dont know how to explain it without confusing everybody.

    So the religion Abraham was following was the word of Allah, making him Muslim.

    The thing is we belive the Torah and the Bible is corrupt.

    You may disagree with that totally, or may laugh at it.

    But I belive it to be the truth.

    I am beliving a belief, so I cant prove myself correct, neither can you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Dont all religions try to discredit other religions?
    Nope. Jews don't give a rats ass what you choose to worship as long as you are a righteous person. Do Jew's religiously persecute Christians?--No. Do they religiously persecute Muslims?--No.

    Do Budahists care who or what I worship?
    Do Shieks care?
    Do Taoists?
    Do Hindus?

    Are any of them posting threads attacking Christianity or Judaism?

    Contrast those religions with Islam which explicity states that Jews and Christians are terrible people for not accepting Mohammed and his Qu'ran. These infidels are condemned to eternal suffering.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Do you have any other factual text other than the Jewish and Christian holy books that say Abraham was a Jew?
    Nope. But in all of the anthropolocical and archaelogical scholarly fields, an older historical or mythological source is always considered more reliable than a newer one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    Nope. Jews don't give a rats ass what you choose to worship as long as you are a righteous person. Do Jew's religiously persecute Christians?--No. Do they religiously persecute Muslims?--No.

    Do Budahists care who or what I worship?
    Do Shieks care?
    Do Taoists?
    Do Hindus?

    Are any of them posting threads attacking Christianity or Judaism?

    Contrast those religions with Islam which explicity states that Jews and Christians are terrible people for not accepting Mohammed and his Qu'ran. These infidels are condemned to eternal suffering.
    Jews discredit Islam all the time. Calling it violent, evil, etc etc. Visit JTF.org

    Hindus discredit Islam also, you arent just checking out the right places.

    The other religions I really dont care about. But I will admit out of the 3 biggest religions the Jews in general dont go out seeking converts, compared to the other religions.

    Christians say that people that dont accept Christ as their savior will spend eternity in Hell. Ask Max2extreme he agreed with me on that.

    Here is a verse straight from the Quran that contradicts your statement.

    "Those who believe, and those who followed Jewish law, and [also] Christians and Sabeans, whoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day and does good deeds, they shall have their reward before their Lord, and there shall be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve." [Al-Baqarah]

    Nope. But in all of the anthropolocical and archaelogical scholarly fields, an older historical or mythological source is always considered more reliable than a newer one.
    So the Hindu text is more reliable than the Jewish or Christian or Muslim one?
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 10-14-2004 at 11:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Jews discredit Islam all the time. Calling it violent, evil, etc etc. Visit JTF.org

    Hindus discredit Islam also, you arent just checking out the right places.

    Here is a verse straight from the Quran that contradicts your statement.

    "Those who believe, and those who followed Jewish law, and [also] Christians and Sabeans, whoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day and does good deeds, they shall have their reward before their Lord, and there shall be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve." [Al-Baqarah]
    Some Jews discredit Islam because of the practices of its followers. However many great Rabbi's have written many good things about Islam. In general its held in higher esteem than all other non-Jewish religions, including Christianity.

    So if Jews and Christians are going to be saved at the end of days, why are there so many antisemetic and antichristian verses in the Qu'ran? Furthermore what is the point of converting Jews and Christians since they are already 'saved'?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    So the Hindu text is more reliable than the Jewish or Christian or Muslim one?
    Don't be obtuse. You've missed the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    So if Jews and Christians are going to be saved at the end of days, why are there so many antisemetic and antichristian verses in the Qu'ran? Furthermore what is the point of converting Jews and Christians since they are already 'saved'?
    Good question, I will have to research that.

    What anti-semetic and anti-christian verses are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Good question, I will have to research that.

    What anti-semetic and anti-christian verses are you talking about?
    Ok, here are some anti-christian verses. I have not verified all of them, nor have I read them all in context:

    Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
    Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
    Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
    Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”
    Ishaq:180 “According to my information, the Apostle often sat by a young Christian slave named Jabr. The Meccans said, ‘He is the one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings.’ Then Allah revealed, Qur’an 16:103 ‘We know what they (pagans) say: “It is only a mortal man who teaches him (Muhammad). But the tongue of the man they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this (Qur’an) is pure Arabic.’”
    Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”
    Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
    Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
    Ishaq:552 “The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka’aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased.”
    Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”
    Qur’an 5:15 “O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Apostle, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Scripture, suppressing and passing over much. There has come to you from Allah a (new) light (Muhammad) and a clear Book [the Qur’an].”
    Qur’an 5:17 “...Say (Muhammad): ‘Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary, his mother, and everyone else on earth?”
    Qur’an 5:18 “The Jews and the Christians say: ‘We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.’ Say: ‘Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men. He forgives whom He wishes and punishes whom He pleases.’”
    Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”
    Qur’an 5:47 “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”
    Qur’an 5:48 “To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed.”
    Qur’an 5:49 “And this (He commands): Judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their [Christian] desires, but beware of them lest they beguile you, seducing you away from any of that which Allah hath sent down to you. And if they turn you away [from being Muslims], be assured that for their crime it is Allah’s purpose to smite them. Truly most men are rebellious.”
    Qur’an 5:57 “Believers, take not for friends those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, a joke, whether among those who received the Scripture before you or among those who reject Faith; but fear Allah.”
    Qur’an 5:68 “Say: ‘People of the Scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.’ It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people.”
    Qur’an 5:72 “...Lo! Whoever joins other gods with Allah or says He has a partner, Allah has forbidden Paradise, and the Hell Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.”
    Qur’an 5:73 “They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them—the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.”
    Qur’an 5:75 “The Messiah, Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had to eat their food. See how Allah does make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded!”
    Qur’an 4:157 “‘We [Jews] killed the Messiah, Jesus,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him. It appeared so to them (as the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man and they killed that man). Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself. Those who differ with this version are full of doubts. They have no knowledge and follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not.”
    Qur’an 4:171 “O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion; nor speak lies of Allah. The Messiah, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease and Desist: (it is) better for you: for Allah is one Ilah (God). (Far it is removed from him of) having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Messiah is proud to be a slave of Allah, as are the angels, those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)…. He will punish with a painful doom; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or save them.”
    Qur’an 4:159 “And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in him (Jesus as only a messenger of Allah and a human being) before his (Jesus’) death. He will be a witness against them.”
    Qur’an 5:77 “Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah’s indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.” [Another translation reads:] “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”
    Qur’an 5:80 “You see many of them allying themselves with the unbelieving infidels. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.” Qur’an 5:81 “If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what had been revealed to him.”
    Qur’an 5:82 “You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.”
    Qur’an 5:110 “And God will say: ‘O Jesus! Recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in the prime of life. Behold! I taught you the law and the judgment, the Torah and the Gospel. And behold, you made out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird and you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission. And you healed those born blind by My permission and the lepers by My permission. And behold! You raised forth the dead by My permission. And behold! I did restrain the Jews from harming you when you came with clear proofs. And the unbelievers among the Jews said: ‘This is nothing but magic.’”
    Qur’an 5:111 “Behold! I inspired the [Christian] disciples to have faith in Me and My Messenger. They said, ‘We are believers, and bear witness that we prostrate ourselves to Allah as Muslims.’” Qur’an 5:112 “Behold! The disciples, said: ‘O Jesus, can your Lord send down to us a table well laid out from heaven?’ Said Jesus: ‘Fear Allah, if you have faith.’ When the disciples said: ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?’ He said: “Observe your duty to Allah, if you are true believers.’” Qur’an 5:113 “They said: ‘We only wish to eat thereof to satisfy our hearts, and to know that you have told us the truth. We want to witnesses a miracle.’ Said Jesus, the son of Mary: ‘O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table well laid out, that there may be for us a feast, a Sign from you.” Qur’an 5:115 “Allah said: ‘I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, resisting Faith [Islam], I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on any one of my creatures, man or jinn. I will punish them with a torment such as I have not inflicted on any one of my creatures.”
    Qur’an 5:116 “And behold! Allah will say: ‘O Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ He will say: ‘Glory to You! Never could I utter what I had no right.” Qur’an 5:117 “I only said what You (Allah) commanded me to say: Worship Allah, my lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them but you took me up. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world.)”
    Tabari IX:15 “One of the Ansari who was plundering the slain came upon a Thaqif boy. He discovered that he was an uncircumcised Christian. He uncovered others and then yelled out at the top of his voice, ‘Allah knows that the Thaqif are uncircumcised.”
    Tabari IX:86 “Don’t seduce the Jews or Christians for incumbent on them is to pay the jizyah protection tax.”
    Bukhari:V2B23N414 “The Prophet in his fatal illness said, “Allah cursed Jews and Christians because they took their Prophets’ graves as places for praying.’”
    Bukhari:V5B59N727 “When Allah’s Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woolen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, ‘That is so! Allah’s curse be on Jews and Christians.’”
    Bukhari:V4B55N607 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw Jesus with a red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble Abraham more than any of his offspring.’”
    Qur’an 2:111 “They say: ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ Those are their (vain) desires. Say: ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’ Nay, whoever submits His face to Allah and surrenders, he will get his reward; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ‘The Christians follow nothing; and the Christians say: ‘the Jews follow nothing (true);’ Yet they (profess to) recite the (same) Scripture Book. But Allah will judge between them in their quarrel.”
    Qur’an 9:30 “The Jews call Uzair the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, ****ing and destroying them. How perverse are they!”
    Qur’an 9:31 “They (Jews and Christians) consider their rabbis and monks to be gods besides Allah. They also took their Lord Messiah to be a god but they were commanded (in the Taurat and Injeel) to worship only One Ilah (God). There is no ilah (god) but He. Too holy is He for the partners they associate (with Him).”
    Qur’an 9:34 “Believers, there are many (Christian) monks and (Jewish) rabbis who in falsehood devour the wealth of mankind and hinder (men) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s Cause. (Muhammad) announce unto them tidings of a painful torture. On the Day [of Doom] heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the Fire of Hell. It will be branded on their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs. ‘This is the (treasure) which you hoarded for yourselves: now taste it!’”
    Qur’an 2:116 “They say: ‘Allah hath begotten a son: glory be to Him.’ Nay, to Him belongs all that is in heavens and on earth: All are subservient and obedient to Him.”
    Qur’an 2:145 “Even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture Book all the Signs, they would not follow Your Qiblah; nor are you going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other’s Qiblah.”
    Qur’an 2:146 “The People of the Book, unto whom We gave the Scripture, know/recognize this revelation/him as they know/recognize their own sons; But lo! a party of them knowingly conceals truth.”
    Qur’an 2:71 “The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.”
    Qur’an 2:174 “Those who conceal Allah’s revelations in the [Bible] Scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom.” Qur’an 2:175 “They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition.”
    Tabari VIII:98 “Between the truce of Hudaybiyah and his death, the Messenger dispersed his Companions with letters. ‘I have been sent as a mercy and for all. Therefore, convey the message from me, and Allah shall have mercy on you. Do not become disobedient to me as the Disciples became disobedient to Jesus. He called them to the like of what I called you to. Those whom he sent close by were pleased and accepted; those whom he sent far off were refused. Jesus complained of their behavior to Allah, and when they awoke the next morning, each could speak the language of the people to whom he had been sent. Then Jesus said, ‘This is an affair that Allah has determined for you; so go forth!’”
    Qur’an 8:50 “If you could have seen the infidels when the angels drew away their souls, striking their faces and smiting their backs. The angels said: ‘Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire.’”
    Qur’an 8:52 “They brought this on themselves. Their case is like that of Pharaoh and of those before them. They denied and rejected the revelations of Allah, and Allah destroyed them, punishing them for their crimes: for Allah is strict, severe in punishment.”
    Qur’an 61:6 “And Jesus, the son of Mary, said: ‘Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming that (which was revealed) before me in the Torah, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad, the Praised One.’ But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, ‘this is sorcery!’”
    Qur’an 61:14 “O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah: As Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are Allah’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious.”
    Qur’an 3:37 “Mariam was given into the care of Zacharyah. Whenever he came to see her in her chamber he found her provided with food, and he asked, ‘Where has this come from Mary?’ She said, ‘From Allah who gives in abundance to whomsoever He will. Zacharyah prayed, ‘Bestow on me offspring that is good [i.e., not a girl]. As he stood in the chamber the angels said, ‘Allah sends you tidings of Yahya (John) who will confirm a thing from Allah (the creation of Isa (Jesus), the Word of Allah) and be a noble prophet, one who is upright and does good [a Muslim].”
    Qur’an 3:42Qur’an 3:44 “Behold! the angels said: ‘Mariam! Allah has chosen you and purified you above the women of all nations and creation (including jinn). Mary! submit with obedience to your Lord (Allah). Prostrate yourself, and bow down with those [Muslims] who bow down.” “This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which you have no knowledge and We reveal unto you (Messenger!) by inspiration. You were not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mariam. Nor were you with them when they disputed.”
    Qur’an 3:45 “Behold, the angels said: ‘O Mariam! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of those nearest to Allah.”
    Qur’an 4.171 “O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. He bestowed His Word on Mariam and His Spirit. So believe in Allah and say not Trinity for Allah is one Ilah (God)…far be it from His Glory to beget a son.”
    Qur’an 3:46 “And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and shall be one of the good ones.”
    Bukhari:V4B55N645 “The Prophet said, ‘None spoke in cradle but three: The first was Jesus, the second was an Israeli called Juraij. While he was offering his prayers, his mother called him. He said, “Shall I answer her or keep on praying?” He went on praying and did not answer her. His mother said, “O Allah! Do not let him die till he sees the faces of prostitutes.”
    Qur’an 3:47 “Mary said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so: Allah creates what He wills: When He has decreed a plan, He but says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!” Qur’an 3:48 “And Allah will teach him the Scripture Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him a messenger to the Children of Israel, with this message: ‘Lo! I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave.” [As if reading a different Arabic text, the Ali translation says:] “He will teach him the Law and the Judgment, the Torah and the Gospel, and he will be Apostle to the children of Israel, (saying) ‘I have come to you with a prodigy from your Lord that I will fashion the state of destiny out of the mire for you and breathe (a new spirit) into it, and (you) will rise by the will of Allah.”
    Bukhari:V4B55N657 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, will shortly descend amongst you Muslims and will judge mankind by the law of the Qur’an. He will break the cross and kill the swine [Jews] and there will be no Jizyah tax taken from non-Muslims. Money will be so abundant no one will accept it. So you may recite this Holy Verse: “Isa (Jesus) was just a human being before his death. On the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus) will be a witness against the Christians.”’”
    Bukhari:V4B55N658 “Allah’s Apostle said ‘How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur’an and not by the law of Gospel.’”
    Bukhari:V4B55N651-2 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus. There has been no prophet between me and Jesus. All the prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.’”
    Qur’an 3:50 “(I [Isa/Jesus] have come) to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”
    Bukhari:V4B56N814 “There was a Christian who embraced Islam and he used to write the revelations for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again he used to say: ‘Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.’”
    Qur’an 3:52 “But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: ‘Who will be my helpers in the Allah’s Cause? The disciples said: We will be Allah’s helpers. We believe in Allah, and do you bear witness that we are Muslims.” Qur’an 3:54 “And they (the disciples from the previous verse) schemed, and Allah schemed and plotted (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” [Another translation reads:] Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations [the Torah and Gospels] and follow this Apostle [Jesus]. Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.” [A third translation says that “they” refers to “disbelievers,” not the disciples and they plotted to kill Jesus.] “And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Isa [Jesus]) and Allah plotted too.”
    Qur’an 3:55 “Allah said, ‘Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).… Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them.” [Interesting, considering...] Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.” [Another translation reads:] Qur’an 3:55 “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith. Then shall you all return unto me, and I will judge between you on the matters wherein you dispute.” [Another:] “(Remember) when Allah said: ‘Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me. I am cleansing you of those who disbelieve.” [A fourth reads:] “When Allah said: ‘Jesus, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve.... I will decide between you concerning that which you differed.”
    Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.” Qur’an 3:58 “This is what We rehearse to you of the Signs and Message, a wise reminder. The similitude (likeness) of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.”
    Qur’an 3:60 “The Truth (comes) from Allah alone. So be not of those who doubt, waver or dispute. If any one disputes in this matter with you, now after knowledge has come to you, say: ‘Come! Let us gather together our sons and women among ourselves. Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!’”
    Qur’an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.” Qur’an 3:62 “This is the true account, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah—He is the Mighty, the Wise. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: ‘O People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah.’ If then they turn back, say you: ‘Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims surrendered.”
    Qur’an 3:67 “Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was a true Muslim, surrendered to Allah (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.” Qur’an 3:69 “It is the wish of the followers of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not. You People of the Book! Why reject you the signs, proofs, and verses of Allah, of which you are witnesses? You People of the Book! Why do you clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth?”
    Qur’an 3:118 “O you who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: ‘Perish in your rage.’”
    Qur’an 4:48 “Allah forgives not that partners [Christ as God] should be set up with Him; but He forgives anything else, to whom He please; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous.”
    Qur’an 4:50 “Behold! how they invent lies against Allah! That is flagrant sin.”
    Qur’an 4:51 “Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in sorcery and false deities and say of those who disbelieve: these are better guided than those who believe. They are (men) whom Allah has cursed: And those whom Allah has cursed, you will find that they have no savior.”
    Qur’an 4:54 “Are they jealous and envious what Allah has given them of his bounty? But We had already given the house of Abraham the Book, and conferred upon them a grand kingdom. Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him. And Hell is sufficient for their burning. Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire. As often as their skin is burnt and singed, roasted through, We shall change it for fresh skin, so that they may go on tasting the torment.”

  22. #22
    Billy_Bathgate's Avatar
    Billy_Bathgate is offline AR Vet / Retired
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    Technically, Abraham and Moses actually could be both a Jew and a Muslim, just depends on what side of the fence you look at it from. Not all the "jews" were from Judiah (egypt slaves), and surely not all Muslims are from the Middle East (India)

    However, I think a Christian would always call him a Jew.

  23. #23
    zOaib's Avatar
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    "And fight against them until persecution is no more and religion is for God alone. But if they desist then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers"

    (Qur'an, Al-Baqarah 2:193)

    and at the same time the Quran tells us to MURDER non believers it also tells us this above verse , which clearly states if they leave u alone , dont bother killing more , but only the ones who have Wronged U !

  24. #24
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    and at the same time the Quran tells us to MURDER non believers it also tells us this above verse , which clearly states if they leave u alone , dont bother killing more , but only the ones who have Wronged U !
    The Koran never tells us to murder anybody, just to kill them. It says fight them only if they persecute you etc.

    The quotes posted by MMC78, GOD is scolding the Jews and Christians, like he does to muslims also. Its like an angry parent scolding the kids to become better.

  25. #25
    Pale Horse's Avatar
    Pale Horse is offline F.I.L.F.
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    The entire history of Abraham is in the Old Testament which is basically from the Torah. God chose the "Jews" not the other way around. It was not Abrahams choice to be a "Jew" God chose him.

  26. #26
    wingsofazrael is offline Associate Member
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    Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) was born in the city of Ur, in southern Iraq. If you remember he was stranger in the land of Canaan. How was he Jewish first? He is the father of three faiths. He isnt an Israelite, as they descended from Jacob(pbuh), the son of Issac(pbuh) and he is not from the tribe of Judah(obviously not a jew). Although the jewish will claim he is the founder of the jewish faith, he is really the father of monotheism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingsofazrael
    Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) was born in the city of Ur, in southern Iraq. If you remember he was stranger in the land of Canaan. How was he Jewish first? He is the father of three faiths. He isnt an Israelite, as they descended from Jacob(pbuh), the son of Issac(pbuh) and he is not from the tribe of Judah(obviously not a jew). Although the jewish will claim he is the founder of the jewish faith, he is really the father of monotheism.
    well the jews think he is a jew , disregarding the fact that there was a lineage form his first born Ishmaeel , since Isaac was the 2nd born , and where the jews lineage comes from .............. but the jews give no importance to the lineage of Ishmaeel .

  28. #28
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    He certaintly wasn't Muslim, the religion did not exist at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    He certaintly wasn't Muslim, the religion did not exist at that time.
    We belive that GOD's original message to the Prophets was Islam. But it was changed by man.

    The religion was presented, the terms Muslim, Jew, Christian are just names.

    But we belive the message sent by GOD was Islam from the beginning.

    Its hard to explain but I tried my best.

  30. #30
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    I understand let's just call him a man of God, chosen by God that is what is most important

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