10-18-2004, 07:47 AM #1
Christian God vs Jewish God...Caucasion
I looked a little for the thread that you asked this question Caucasion, but cant remember what one so I made this thread. First, heres what I wrote to my pastor and his reply:
> Is it that we worship a different God as the Jews (because didnt
> Jesus worship the Jewish God?), or is it that the Jews do not
> recognize Jesus as the mesiah and part of God, so the old testament
> Christian God and the Jewish God are the same, so Jewish only
> recognizes PART of the true God, but once the second coming occurs
> and the 144,000 (i think that is the number) Jews become
> "christians", then those Jewish christians (mesioniac jew, is that
> the term?) will then know the 2nd half of God, and then know the
> exact same God.
I believe that in that they do not recognize God as He has fully revealed
Himself (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), then they do not worship the same
God, even though they would call him by the same name. You are right that
eventually 144,000 will recognize the true nature of God as the trinity. In
fact, Romans 11 tells us that "all Israel will be saved." Until that
happens, the Jews have rejected not just their Messiah, but also their God
and have made an idol out of their religion.
So, that being said, I am still a LITTLE confused, but the way I understand it is, because Jews do not recognize the full trinity,then they do not worship the same god. But once they do see Jesus as their savior and as part of the trinity, then they will know the full God as christians do.
10-18-2004, 07:48 AM #2
From a website by a Messianic Jew:
Among the 14 million Jewish people there is a group of perhaps twenty or thirty thousand people, born Jews, who believe in the Torah and the rest of the Tenach and practice Jewish customs and religion. They also believe in Jesus. Some, if not most of them, prefer to call Him by His Jewish name, Yeshua. Although small in number, they are a vocal group, constantly challenging the Jewish spiritual and secular authorities with their presence, demanding recognition as Jews.
It would be easiest for these Jewish believers, among whom is also the writer of these lines, to accept the advice of rabbinic leaders and put aside our belief in Jesus. The Jewish authorities work very hard to achieve it. Organizations and individuals spend their time and hundreds and thousands of dollars towards this end. Among the best known are the Peilim, Karen Yeladdenu, supported by the Ministry of Religious Affairs in Israel, and many more who do it as a full or part time job.
Why do Messianic Jews resist? What lies behind their obstinancy, not only continuing to believe themselves but also spreading their faith to others? The answer as we see it is spiritual. This spiritual aspect can be summarized as follows:
Prophecies Demand It
We believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah because He alone gives sense to the words of our Jewish prophets. There is Isaiah 53 with its minute description of the suffering servant who was despised and rejected, afflicted with pain and stripes, by whose "stripes we are healed." He then dies, is buried, yet is revived and suffers all this "for the affliction of my (Isaiah the prophet's) people." All this can best be applied to one person only - Yeshua of Nazareth. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to Messiah. The Targum of Jonathan begins the passage with the words Ha yatslakh avdee Mashikha, "Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper. .. " Common sense says it must refer to Jesus.
The same goes for many other prophecies which speak of the time of His birth, like Daniel 9:26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, ... (The city and sanctuary were destroyed A.D. 70. Messiah had to come and be cut off before then.) The manner of His birth in a supernatural way is recorded in Isaiah 7:14: Behold the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 9:6 (5 in Heb.) says:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The place of his birth is foretold by Micah, the prophet in verse 5:2 (5:1 in Hebrew): But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The manner of His death is found both in Psalm 2 2:17, "they pierced my hands and my feet" (Masoretic text - "Like a lion they are at my hands and my feet"), and in Zechariah 12:10, "They shall look unto me whom they have pierced," which the Talmud in Sukkah 52 applies to Messiah ben Joseph.
We have heard arguments against His Messianic claims by the fact that some prophecies like Isaiah 2 (breaking swords into plowshares) and Isaiah 11 Lamb and lion dwelling together) have not been fulfilled as yet and that our explanations for a future fulfillment by His second coming creates too long a hiatus (of close to 2,000 years). But what is 2,000 years in the sight of God, waiting patiently for His people to respond and accept His Anointed One - Yeshua, ben Elohim?
We hold on to our faith because of the spotless Person He was. His contemporaries testified of Him that "He doeth all things well" (Mark 7:37). He could challenge his contemporaries saying to them, "which of you convicteth me of sin?" and they held their peace. Some modern Jewish and non-Jewish scholars point out His lack of originality in many of His sayings. Would it have been better if He had contradicted the words of the prophets? Others assert that His teaching is too idealistic (e.g., the turning of the other cheek), and therefore impractical. But who can find fault in a Man who constantly goes from the South to the North of Israel, then Judea and Samaria, doing good, healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, opening the eyes of the blind, unstopping the ears of the deaf, making the lame to walk again and preaching the Good News of salvation to the poor, the needy, and the outcast? Rejected by the leading Pharisees and by the High Priests, He died a martyr's death by crucifixion at the hands of the cruel Roman soldiers. But this is not the end of the story, for His 12 disciples plus a number of others see Him alive after He died and proclaim Him the risen Saviour. For this assertion nearly all of them had to pay with their lives, dying like their master a cruel death from the hands of pagans and of unbelieving Jewish leaders. Yet these believing Jews never flinched. They knew for sure that He is alive.
PERSONALITIES OF HIS FOLLOWERS
We are convinced that He is Messiah because of the transformation in the personalities of His followers. Who could transform Simon Bar Yonah, the fisherman on the shores of Galilee, to become the leader of Messianic Jews in Israel and abroad, and finally to be acknowledged the first bishop and highest authority next to Jesus by millions of people of the whole world?
What about Saul of Tarsus, convinced that he, with the letters he had from the High Priest, would completely knock out all belief in Jesus? He met the risen Yeshua on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus (Acts 9) and from a persecutor of the Gospel he became a proclaimer of the Good News. He himself was greatly persecuted by unbelieving people everywhere until he finally died a martyr's death at the hands of the Romans in the time of Nero.
PEOPLE WHO ACCEPTED HIM
From the first book, Bere****, to the last prophet in the Tonach, Malachi, the Messiah's activity involves "the people" or the nations. Yaacov Aveenoo foresees it and says:
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:10)
Isaiah the prophet sees Him as the "root of Jesse which shall stand for an ensign of the people;
to Him shall the Gentiles seek" (Isaiah 11:10).
In Isaiah 49:6 Messiah is proclaimed with these words:
It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,
and to restore the preserved of Israel:
I will also give thee a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Malachi says of Him (1:11):
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same
my name shall be great among the Gentiles. PEACE THAT MESSIAH GIVES
Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua found that only in Him they have rest, peace, and satisfaction. They heard Messiah's invitation, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). They verified it in their own lives. They read the record of His promise, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27). They found Messiah to be the Great Gentleman who always keeps His promise. The result is that we can say together with one of the first hosidim of Messiah Yeshua, Simon bar Jonah, called Simon Peter:
Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art the Messiah, the Ben Elohim.
10-18-2004, 09:39 PM #3
So your Pastor is saying that Jews are Idol Worshippers? But I dont understand how Jews are Idol worshippers, when they belive in the one GOD.
While it is Christians that belive Jesus is part of GOD, or GOD.
Doesnt it make more sense if Christians were Idol worshippers than the Jews. Because the Jews are very strict on the ONE GOD theory.
The term Messianic Jew amuses me.
That is just a fancy word for a Christian. There are steps taken in Israel itself to stop the JewsforJesus movement up there.
You cannot be a Jew and accept Jesus as the Messiah, once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you become a Christian.
10-18-2004, 10:06 PM #4AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
- Wherever necessary
We do not believe that Jesus was a part of God - we belive that in effect that He was a relevation of God - much the same, although so much more, as God revealed Himself via various names in the Torah:
The God Most High
God Who Sees
The All-Sufficient One
The LORD Will Provide
The LORD That Healeth
The LORD My Banner
The LORD Who Sanctifies You
The LORD is Peace
The LORD of Hosts
The LORD My Shepherd
The LORD Our Righteousness
The LORD Is There
The Everlasting God
Each time God revealed a new name He showed a new way of relating to us - Jesus was the revelation to show us that God is our Father - we have never related to God in that way before - but also Jesus is the Spirit of God, and revealed the sinfull nature of man and that we were unable to attain to the righteousness of God on our own - thus God himself paid the price - and note the difference in the way God shows up - very humbly and while Jesus has all this power to heal and raise the dead yet did not use it to save himself or take a big position (Jews would have liked that, they were looking for someone to kick off the Romans and bring back a Son of David - shows you that God has a different idea as to what is important than we do
10-19-2004, 07:42 AM #5Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
10-19-2004, 01:38 PM #6Originally Posted by max2extreme
Originally Posted by max2extreme
Is your pastor a Jehova's witness?
10-20-2004, 06:49 PM #7
Haha, no my pastor is not a jehova's witness. He didnt say you were idol worshippers. He said you have made an idol out of your religion. If that means the same thing, I dont know. Ill have to clarify. Im not the best to talk about this (hence why I went to my pastor). Im sure you read my post about how once a Jew believes in the God how he has revealed himself (trinity), then they will believe in the same God. Which means (in my head) that your God is a fraction (1/3 to be exact hehe) of the true God. My wording would not be Idol. But Im going with someone of more knowledge, and if Im told that it is considered idol, then its considered idol in my head.
10-25-2004, 12:21 AM #8
I never understood the teaching of the "Trinity".
When First Gods name is Jehovah(YHWH)
The Holy Spirit is never likened to be anything more than Gods work in progress.
Gods sons name was Jesus
10-25-2004, 01:15 AM #9AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
- Wherever necessary
The Trinity is NOT 3 Gods or parts of One God - it is perhaps thought of as 3 different expressions of One God - think in relational terms - I can be a son, a father, a husband, an employee, a boss...all at the same time - yet there is only one me but different expressions of me as I relate in certain settings.
Also, there is nothing ever mentioned in the Bible about the "Trinity" - that is something that has become shorthand for people to describe the 3 major ways we relate to God. Yet many Christians are either ignorant of this or are being taught near idolatry with all the iconography and praying to mary and saints and such - but none of that is in the Bible, just religious stuff made by men.
Note that Jesus Himself quotes that "the Lord is One" - yet also says that He and His Father are One - same person
10-25-2004, 03:15 AM #10
where does he quote he and his father are one being?
10-25-2004, 03:43 AM #11
Not to offend you but your pastor is out there. The Christians, Jews, muslims all worship the same god. Jews may not perform the Christian convenant but the Jews still recognize the same god. The Jews still have a active covenant with God today. They didnt recognize the messiah. And muslims blow up innocent people in the name of him.
Ask him if he thinks Mormons are saved.
10-25-2004, 02:23 PM #12AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
Originally Posted by Bryan2
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
- Wherever necessary
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Jews didnt try to kill Jesus because He was teaching nice moral stories - but because He said He was God - and unless that is true, Christianity is meaningless because He would not have the standing to be the sacrifice for the rest of us - meaning God Himself paid the price of our sins.
10-25-2004, 03:43 PM #13Originally Posted by Anhydro78
My pastor is not out there. Id like you to tell me how you think the christian god and the muslims worship the same god when there are so many differences in how the god of islam talks and commands his people vs how the christian god talks and commands his people. Give me some examples that lead you to believe they are the same and not just your personal beliefs.
Im leaving today for 2 weeks, so ill continue this when i get back if i dont see it tonight.
10-25-2004, 03:54 PM #14Originally Posted by Anhydro78
I have to agree...Ur pastor is saying what he thinks, not what really is....
10-25-2004, 04:16 PM #15Originally Posted by Anhydro78
They believe in so much crazy stuff. That they become gods when they die, that God had a mother and a father, which means God wasnt the first and only as it is taught in the bible, they believe jesus is the brother of lucifer. This quote coming from the Mormon Journal of Disourses: ""Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is." (totally against christian beliefs and the bible)
Mormons teach that Jesus Christ suffered for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane when He sweat "as it were" great drops of blood. Mormons totally avoid the Biblical teaching of Christ's atonement for sin which was accomplished on the Cross.
Ask a mormon this. If I accept you as a christian, will you accept me as a mormon, if I reject Joseph Smith and all the LDS prophets as being prophets of God. If I do not believe in the Book of Mormon or the LDS Scriptures, baptisms for the dead, the temple endowments, the LDS gospel, would you accept me as a Mormon? The answer is obviously, no...In like manner, when Mormonism denies the Bible and every Christian doctrine do you think that Biblical Christians should accept Mormons as Christians? Again the answer is very obvious, no we will not. You cannot legitimately claim to be Christians when you refuse to accept what the Bible teaches and what a true Christian believes.
I can go on a lot about Mormonism vs. Christianity. I have friends that are mormons and we debate about this ALL the time. Id love to debate this though because Ill win. It would be best to be brought up in a different thread though. Ill continue on my return in 2 weeks. Id like to leave with this verse:
Matt. 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
10-25-2004, 04:18 PM #16Originally Posted by OGPackin
10-25-2004, 05:13 PM #17Originally Posted by max2extreme
Listen, first off u need to chill out! Ur tone is all wrong if ur really trying to get the answers to ur questions! 2nd, im Jewish so i dont have to prove anything to u or ur pastor. Im telling u as someone who is Jewish that ur pastor is off base.
WTF does "they do not recognize God as He has fully revealed
Himself (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), then they do not worship the same
God, even though they would call him by the same name." mean....?!? So hes saying Jewish people believe in a different God..? Thats horse **** right there! We dont believe in a "different" God. We believe there is ONE God and he is all around us. Jesus was Gods son. Im not sure what hes trying to say...?!?
I have NO clue what hes talking about here..."eventually 144,000 will recognize the true nature of God as the trinity." ????
And this is just laughable......"Romans 11 tells us that "all Israel will be saved." Until that happens, the Jews have rejected not just their Messiah, but also their God and have made an idol out of their religion." Ok HIS bible might say that, but i dont remember that part in hebrew school...?!? WE have NOT "rejected" our Messiah or our God!! And please explain how we made an "idol" out of our religion...?!?
10-25-2004, 05:40 PM #18
I didnt realize I had an offensive tone, for that I apologize.
Originally Posted by OGPACKIN
Originally Posted by OGPACKIN
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Originally Posted by OGPACKIN
10-25-2004, 06:21 PM #19Originally Posted by max2extreme
10-25-2004, 07:02 PM #20
Agreed. and the verses about the 144000 jews is from the new testament, book of revelations.
10-27-2004, 07:53 PM #21
arf arf arf literal gubbins
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)