10-18-2004, 06:47 PM #1
Israeli officer cleared in grisly shooting
JERUSALEM - The Israeli army Friday cleared an officer accused by comrades of repeatedly shooting a 13-year-old Palestinian girl to make sure she was dead, but upheld his suspension because of his poor relations with subordinates.
An army investigation also found no wrongdoings by soldiers who fired at the girl as she approached a military observation post near the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip on Oct. 5.
The investigation backed an earlier army account that soldiers opened fire because they suspected she was planting a bomb. The girl's family said she was on her way to school when she was shot.
Soldiers from the unit later told Israeli media that the commander approached the girl after she was shot and possibly killed, and then shot her with automatic fire as they pleaded with him to stop.
Announcing the results of a preliminary investigation, the army's southern commander; Maj. Gen. Dan Harel, said he found no "unethical" behavior by the commander or his soldiers in the shooting.
The conclusion referred to soldiers' accusations that the commander had emptied his rifle into the girl's body after she was dead, an outlawed practice known as "verifying the kill." A separate military police investigation is continuing.
However the statement said the officer would remain suspended for poor leadership abilities and poor relations with this subordinates. A final decision on his fate will be made next week.
Israeli soldiers have become increasingly wary of Palestinian teenagers and women after several committed suicide bombings or transported explosives.
Hundreds of Palestinian children and teens have been killed by army fire in the past four years, often in clashes between stone throwers and Israeli troops. The army rarely launches investigations into the incidents.
The officer, whose name wasn't released, was accused by some of his soldiers of emptying an ammunition clip into the girl, Iyman Hams, after troops shot her when she entered an unauthorized zone near the army post close to Rafah.
The officer denied the accusations against him, claiming some of his soldiers made up the story because they were angry at him, a new officer, for taking away some of their privileges.
A military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the investigation had exonerated the officer of repeatedly shooting the girl.
The official said the investigation found the officer approached the girl's body after she was hit by a volley of bullets fired from an army observation post.
As the officer approached the body he came under fire from Palestinian gunmen at least 300 yards away, then shot at the ground to deter the fire, the official said. A soldier in an observation tower believed the shots were aimed at the girl's body, the official said.
The official couldn't explain why the officer shot into the ground rather than at the source of fire.
Palestinian hospital officials said the girl was shot at least 15 times, mostly in the upper body.
Copied from San Antonio express.
10-18-2004, 08:21 PM #2
I mean, this isnt suprising at all. Justice has been served in Israel once again.
10-19-2004, 08:29 AM #3
Was this a criminal act ? perhaps, depending on the outcome of the official investigation. since Palestinian accounts are rarely true.
Does this represent the Israeli armed forces ? Hell no.
Is this somehow the policy of the Israeli government? Hell no
Are Israeli solders ordered to shoot civilians? Hell no
Now lets discuss what Arabs do to civilians, and what are the rewards to an Arab who kills innocent people...... We need a separate thread to cover the lengthy list. And lengthy it will be.
10-19-2004, 08:31 AM #4
this isnt a palestinian account. It was reported by Israeli soldiers.
10-19-2004, 08:38 AM #5Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
10-19-2004, 08:46 AM #6
I guess a court-martial at best, this happened about a month ago I think. He's been cleared of the nasty stuff. Now he's under investigation for his leadership skills, at worst he'll probably be kicked out of the army.
The officer denied the accusations against him, claiming some of his soldiers made up the story because they were angry at him, a new officer, for taking away some of their privileges.The official couldn't explain why the officer shot into the ground rather than at the source of fire.
10-19-2004, 09:35 AM #7Banned
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israel always puts up these mock charges against ther own soldiers when they get caught otherwise they dont do anything against them.
this is just a PR propaganda stunt pulled of by israel to show that it is "fair" and is on the side of "justice". people should not be supprised at the outcome just take a look at who runs there country ariel sharon a war criminal.
10-19-2004, 09:42 AM #8Originally Posted by physio_sport
10-19-2004, 09:48 AM #9Banned
Originally Posted by Will Power
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so are you telling me that israel does not have mock charges put against its own chosen soldiers who get caught by european news cameras commiting war crimes.
there was this solider who shot a peace activist in the head while he was saving palestinian children from israeli gun fire and was caught on video. he was only taken to court when england and the international community put pressure on the israeli goverent to take action.
10-19-2004, 10:03 AM #10Originally Posted by physio_sport
10-19-2004, 10:15 AM #11
[QUOTE=physio_sport]i think you mistaken my post is not my opinion, it is the truth and is factual.QUOTE]
No there is no truth in your silly little attempt to spread your kind of propaganda. There is no truth in your childish representation of the only nation in the middle east with democracy, rule of law, and a real justice system. In Israel the accused are given a fair trail. The guilty are punished according to national law, the innocent are free. That is undisputable.
Arabs on the other hand...........
10-19-2004, 01:37 PM #12Originally Posted by Bigen12
Atleast the Hamas bomber kills himself, this Israeli soldier is free to go.
Did you read how she was killed? Point blank, and then sprayed.
10-19-2004, 02:08 PM #13Retired Vet
Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
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10-19-2004, 02:46 PM #14Originally Posted by BOUNCER
Although I think it's terribly sad that a 13-year-old girl was killed, I understand why they initally shot her. The problem arises when you have Israeli soldiers testifying that their commander shot her point blank and his only defense was that he was trying to ward of palestinina gunman firing at him 300 yards away? It seems obvious that they don't care what he did, perhaps they have become too jaded in countless terror attacks and war. But then, jaded is no excuse to leave the moral high ground they cling to so desperately.
Is this the extent of Israeli justice? Are they truely on the right? I don't know either way, just proposing some questions.
10-19-2004, 03:07 PM #15Originally Posted by symatech
The comparison should be with nations that not only do not practice such basic concepts, but also oppose them theologically. Those same nations that praise, reward, and elevate killers to a higher stature in society.
10-19-2004, 04:07 PM #16
i disagree. How do you compare two nations that are ideologically different? You don't. We dont compare the USA to Saudi Arabia do we? Are you trying to say that since their enemies are killers it is somehow ok for Israel or any country which holds democratic values to stoop to that level? You have said many times "arabs on the other hand..." like the entire arab population are opposed to democracy and only praise killers. That is a gross projection on your part and does not fit the race as a whole. Likewise, the projection that Israel is some shinning light of morlity and truth is rapidly diminishing in many peoples eyes...and sadly my own as well. Of course, it should come to no surprise, after all, everbody is human. Humans are flawed. But I would hope, that if a US army officer emptied his clip into a 13 year old iraqi girl, he would go to jail for murder. Not released on the bull**** statement that he was trying to deter iraqi gunman from shooting him by repeatedly shooting the girl. I saw a video of a guy working for sadam execute 4-5 people and when it was over took his handgun and went by them again just unloading....this is no different.
10-19-2004, 04:56 PM #17Originally Posted by symatech
But cant we say that about Palestinians? Cant they loose it also? Dont they see war, killings, and death all the time around them?
Does that justify them killing a little girl, and spraying her with bullets? No.
This was an action we have seen. I have seen videos in which Israeli soldiers slapped a girl in her house and was threating her, she was like 5 years old, and it was a controvesy in Israel, and many Israelies spoke against this video.
There are things that are much worst. Because with all human beings, if they are given too much power, they abuse it. Not just with Israelies, but with everyone.
10-19-2004, 05:29 PM #18Originally Posted by symatech
The soldier said he thought the girl threw her school bag at him so he shot. Why did he shoot so many times? Who knows? Have you ever found yourself in a similar situation that you think you can judge his reaction?
What was a 13 years old girl doing outside a military post anyway?
And your questions about why would his soldiers want to get him in trouble is naive.
10-19-2004, 05:32 PM #19Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
She got lost, like a lot of little kids.
10-19-2004, 05:34 PM #20Originally Posted by symatech
10-19-2004, 05:35 PM #21
Wearing her school uniform and carrying her book bag, Iyman and her two classmates took a route past the Israeli command post, the route they have taken many times before. Only about 400 meters from the school and relative safety, Israel Defense Forces, fearing that the 13-year old was carrying explosives in her book bag, fired warning shots in the air.
"When the soldiers fired in the air, the girl threw her bag and tried to flee," said H., a mechanic of Tel Sultan who witnessed the shooting. "The bullets hit the bag and then the girl." He said the child was about 50 meters from the Zionist military posts when the soldiers started shooting in the air. "She started running and the soldiers started firing hails of bullets at her. She was hit in the arm and fell on the ground, but they went on shooting," he said.
Soldiers later told the Israeli newspaper, Yediot Ahronoth, that their company commander, who was at the scene, walked up to the girl's body immediately after the shooting and "emptied his magazine" into her. Soldiers said the commander had approached the girl, who had already been shot and possibly killed, and repeatedly shot her as they pleaded with him to stop.
10-19-2004, 05:39 PM #22Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
She got lost? Just like the kids who carry bombs to checkpoints are lost?
She probably was innocent, but a lot of others like her aren't. That puts IDF soldiers in a situation where small children are a threat to their lives. So what do you do when a child comes at you with a bag and you know that many before him were suicide bombers?
10-19-2004, 05:39 PM #23Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
Stop defending the child killer, and a criminal.
You are losing my respect more and more, you are not a moderate Israeli, your an extremist.
10-19-2004, 05:40 PM #24Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
10-19-2004, 05:43 PM #25Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
10-19-2004, 05:44 PM #26
It doesnt matter, you are defending the soldier that killed the girl. And you are saying they killed her "for a reason".
And even now your are questioning why she was there in the first place? After she is dead and they found NO bomb on her. You are asking "Why she was there"
This is her land, this is her home, the question should not be "Why is she there" the question is "Why is she getting shot walking in her land" and "What are the IDF criminals doing in her land in the first place"
If these IDF men are such girls, and pussies to shoot at a girl that is far away, thinking it was a bomb, those chickens shoudnt even be in her land.
All more a reason for the Israelies to get out of HER land.
10-19-2004, 05:45 PM #27Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
Saying she "might" have had a bomb, is enough reason to kill her.
Is like a Palestinian saying we can kill Israeli kids, because they might become a IDF solider who will kill Palestinians in the future.
10-19-2004, 05:46 PM #28Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
You owe me an apology.
10-19-2004, 05:48 PM #29
After I read this thread, and the other thread, I belive you are justifying her killing.
Not only that, you are defending the solider who killed her.
You sound like a Palestinian terrorist supporter who says, yeah Hamas killed kids but...
10-19-2004, 05:51 PM #30Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
10-19-2004, 06:04 PM #31Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
Here is a map of checkpoints in Gaza not to mention other Military outposts and installations.
Now that may not look like alot. But you have to understand the size of Gaza.
For a good example for Americans -
Rhode Island is 3,139 sq km
Gaza is only 360 sq km
So Rhode Island is ten times bigger than Gaza.
Basically where ever a Palestinian is, they are close to a military outpost.
Remember this is a MILITARY OCCUPATION.
10-19-2004, 06:06 PM #32
This girl was from Al Qarawa, look at that city in the Map, she is surrounded. Not the mention the recent uprising of Israeli military in that area. Would mean any person in Gaza is a target because they are "too close" to Israeli military personel.
10-19-2004, 06:16 PM #33Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
For the third time, YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY.
10-19-2004, 06:17 PM #34Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
So, was she lost or wasn't she lost?
10-19-2004, 06:21 PM #35
I dont owe any apology, you should always be against the killing of kids, there is NO justification for it.
No if's and but's about it.
You owe an apology for defending a child killer, and saying there is a "reason" he commited his crime.
I dont know if she was lost or not, only she and GOD knows, I would ask her, but she has been brutally KILLED.
10-19-2004, 06:24 PM #36Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
10-19-2004, 06:56 PM #37Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
1)she was shot at about 50m yes? Over 15 times in the upper body? 50m on a fully automatic weapon 15+ hits is fantastic accuracy -in fact, it's impossibly accuarte. Thats half of the magazine into the girl. That is bull****. And Im being naive?
2)Soldiers have more honor than to set their commanders up for murder. If they wanted him gone they could have fabricated some sexual assualt charge or something along that line. No soldier -unless the IDF is terribly undisciplined- is going to risk his commanders life just to get him off a post. There are easier ways to relinquish command.
3)Unless the IDF trains their soldiers very poorly -which is what I have never heard- then none of their soldiers, who all have seen action, would react to gunfire by shooting in the ground. He's either going to 1)hit the deck, 2)return fire 3)get down and let his tower handle them. WHy didnt the tower return fire? They only like killing children? I think not.
Your justifications for this are poor at best. This man is a murderer. And he has been released. Like I said before, I would hope that if this happened in the US military justice would be served. in war crimes happen yes, does that make them ok? no. No amount of terror or killing or war makes the slaughter of a little kid Ok. I believe now that honor is lost on both sides of that conflict. There is no moral high ground in the world today.
10-20-2004, 12:42 AM #38SHODAN DAN Guest
Cauasian stop bitching around with her. You know well that your wrong, your like the kid who wants his **** ball back all the time when things don't go your way. At the end of the day, YOU alittle too sweet to be wholesome buddy. Reading your posts the couple of weeks I'm here I sense a terrorist simmering beneath the lilly white face you try to put on here.
Tell me something, what are Islamic lands?. Do you have clearly defined borders or is world domination your ultimate goal?.
You do owe Rak-Ani an apolgy, but you sense her on the defensive and so choose to be a bully. But of course, isn't that how your religion treats women. Rak-Ani your wasting your time and enegies on this person.
10-20-2004, 12:52 AM #39Originally Posted by SHODAN DAN
A little too sweet to be wholesome? What the hell does that mean?
Its obvious the hate you have, all you do is follow me around, and yell like a little girl. You are calling me a terrorist even though my words have been the most harshest against the killing of innocent civilians.
That shows you are a bigot, I have never said killing the innocent is ok, in any means or fashion, and you are calling me a terrorist?
Oh yeah, world dominiation is my ulimate goal, yeah that is it....
I dont owe Rak_Ani and apology, because she is defending the criminal IDF soldier, and is saying there is a "reason" for her to be killed.
Dont worry about how my religion treats women, you bigot, you will never get it, cause YOU, yeah you, are blinded by hate.
And I give two ****s if you or Rak_Ani ignore me, honestly.
10-20-2004, 02:22 AM #40Originally Posted by symatech
2. Even if found guility, that solider will not get death penality because Israel doesn't have one.
3. I doubt YOU have ever had to face the situtations these soldiers are in pretty much every day, so don't judge.
4. Since you think you know so much about what being IDF soldier is like, and how their reactions are supposed to be, tell me, how is a soldier supposed to act when children are used as human bombs, and one is coming towards him with a bag? How is a soldier supposed to act when an abulance comes to the checkpost he's at, with a pregnant lady about to give birth inside, but he knows that in the past ambulances with pregnant ladies were used for cover just to get through the checkpost fast and smuggle a bomb or weapons into Israel? Those are two examples. Since you sound like the expert, why don't you tell me, how are the supposed to act?
5. I haven't justified this. I repeated over and over that if this was done, he should go to jail. What I did say is that he doesn't deserve the death penalty for reasons some of which are written in this post too.
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like it when it's done.
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