10-24-2004, 12:22 PM #1
Bush Administration: Noah's Flood created the Grand Canyon
Oh ya, we "really" need more of this sort of thinking . . .
PARK SERVICE STICKS WITH BIBLICAL EXPLANATION FOR GRAND CANYON
Promised Legal Review on Creationist Book Is Shelved
Washington, DC — The Bush Administration has decided that it will stand
by its approval for a book claiming the Grand Canyon was created by
Noah’s flood rather than by geologic forces, according to internal
documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental
Despite telling members of Congress and the public that the legality and
appropriateness of the National Park Service offering a creationist book
for sale at Grand Canyon museums and bookstores was “under review at the
national level by several offices,” no such review took place, according
to materials obtained by PEER under the Freedom of Information Act.
Instead, the real agency position was expressed by NPS spokesperson
Elaine Sevy as quoted in the Baptist Press News:
“Now that the book has become quite popular, we don’t want to
In August of 2003, Grand Canyon National Park Superintendent Joe Alston
attempted to block the sale of Grand Canyon: A Different View, by Tom
Vail, a book explaining how the park’s central feature developed on a
biblical rather than an evolutionary time scale. NPS Headquarters,
however, intervened and overruled Alston. To quiet the resulting furor,
NPS Chief of Communications David Barna told reporters that there would
be a high-level policy review, distributing talking points stating: “We
hope to have a final decision in February .” In fact, the promised
review never occurred –
* In late February, Barna crafted a draft letter to concerned
members of Congress stating: “We hope to have a final decision on the
book in March 2004.” That draft was rewritten in June and finally sent
out to Congressional representatives with no completion date for the
review at all;
* NPS Headquarters did not respond to a January 25th memo from its
own top geologists charging that sale of the book violated agency
policies and undercut its scientific education programs;
* The Park Service ignored a letter of protest signed by the
presidents of seven scientific societies on December 16, 2003.
“Promoting creationism in our national parks is just as wrong as
promoting it in our public schools,” stated PEER Executive Director Jeff
Ruch, “If the Bush Administration is using public resources for
pandering to Christian fundamentalists, it should at least have the
decency to tell the truth about it.”
The creationist book is not the only religious controversy at Grand
Canyon National Park. One week prior to the approved sale of Grand
Canyon: A Different View, NPS Deputy Director Donald Murphy ordered that
bronze plaques bearing Psalm verses be returned and reinstalled at
canyon overlooks. Superintendent Alston had removed the bronze plaques
on legal advice from Interior Department solicitors. Murphy also wrote a
letter of apology to the plaques’ sponsors, the Evangelical Sisterhood
of Mary. PEER has collected other instances of what it calls the Bush
Administration’s “Faith-Based Parks” agenda.
10-24-2004, 12:50 PM #2Originally Posted by Tock
You're kidding right?
Holy cräp thats unbelievable... is this 2004 or 1452?
10-24-2004, 12:56 PM #3
I'm telling ya . . .
The current occupants of the White House are not only Christians, but they're Fundamentalists.
They're not only Christian Fundamentalists, but they're Hard Core Christian Fundamentalists.
They're not only Hard Core Christian Fundamentalists, but they're Dominionists as well, doing God's Will to remold the planet in the Bible's image.
They're not only Hard Core Christian Fundamentalist Dominionists bent on remolding the planet in the Bible's image, but they have definite plans for anyone who doesn't beleive the way they do. But they're saving that part for later . . . We get to see a glimpse of what they have in mind, but the big stuff comes later.
And it won't be pretty.
10-24-2004, 01:06 PM #4
Sounds more and more like Heinlein's "Revolt in 2100"...
Every time I hear of bush and his apostles mix religion and state a bit more, that Heinlein story comes to mind.
10-24-2004, 01:47 PM #5
I can't wait to see what to see what happens if he is re-elected.
10-24-2004, 01:53 PM #6Originally Posted by Tock
10-24-2004, 02:33 PM #7
That is just plain sic and twisted
10-24-2004, 02:35 PM #8
I can NOT believe anybody is voting for GW......it is insane.....C'MON PEOPLE.....wake up......wake up.......pleez
10-25-2004, 03:02 PM #9
Did Bush say he believed this or that christians believed this? If there is a book written by a guy who believes this or wants to propose this, wouldnt it be illegal for the president to deny him publishing? Im not saying I agree. PLEASE dont think that. Im just saying, there is no hard proof I dont think about what caused the grand canyon...(i know very little about this) and I dont know the author. Is he a christian? I honestly have no idea or thoughts about this. Ask a question, is it IMPOSSIBLE? dont start jumpin me. Im open to everyone's thoughts. I really have no clue.
10-25-2004, 03:17 PM #10Originally Posted by max2extreme
On the other hand, when Bush says things like "I have heard about faith-based initiatives eroding the important bridge between church and state" it makes you wonder. There is nothing wrong with being religious -personally I am not- the problem arises when your the head of the USA and your project your religious beliefs. Which Bush has done plenty of times before, however, I do not think there is hard evidence to rightfully claim that this is one of those occurances.
10-25-2004, 06:05 PM #11
Where do you find this stuff Tock?? I agree with Sim and Max. Cant blame the president for everything. Democrats are complaining about Cheney getting an F;ing flu vaxine and now they are complaining about a BOOK being sold at the grand canyon.
WHO GIVES A FVCK..... Its a book bro. The presient DID NOT write the book.
Know what: If he didnt allow the book, Im sure CHRISTIAN advocates would post an article on the NET saying Bush is in ATHIAST and does not believe in god cause he had a book REMOVED from publication.
Then, you would post that article on here and democrats would be complaining about how BUSH spits on the bible and its beliefs..
Find something worth while to complain about.
10-25-2004, 06:25 PM #12
i really dislike those folks in power that are trying to shove their beliefs down my throat, but i have no problem with this. banning a book is something we should leave for the conservatives.
10-25-2004, 06:41 PM #13Originally Posted by max2extreme
Originally Posted by max2extreme
Originally Posted by max2extreme
Originally Posted by max2extreme
"Creation Science" alleges that the story of Noah's Flood as given in the Old Testament is accurate. The Bible states that water covered the entire planet, even the mountains:
Genesis chapter 7:
"19": And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
"20": Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
The tallest mountain on earth is some 14,000 feet above sea level. To calculate the volume of water needed to raise the ocean 14,000 feet you would subtract the volume of the earth from the volume of a sphere 28,000 feet larger. I calculated all this out a few months ago in another thread, and to raise the ocean level this high you would need a cube of water a tad larger than 1000 miles by 1000 miles by 1000 miles.
The obvious questions are, (1) Where did all this water come from? and (2) Where did all this water go? The obvious answer is, "Someone's imagination."
To answer your question, yes, it is IMPOSSIBLE. One billion cubic miles of water just don't appear and dissapear.
There are other difficulties to answer, such as
1) If the ark landed in the middle east, and every mammal, reptile, amphibian, bird, and insect living today are descended from Noah's "floating zoo," then
(a) How did the kangaroos manage to swim to Australia? (why would they even bother?)
(b) Why are there no kangaroos to be found anywhere between the Middle East and Australia?
(c) Why are most species indigineous to specific regions of the globe? You'd think that if the planet's repopulation began in the Middle East, you'd find just about everything there, and fewer species in the Americas, and hardly any on remote islands. But, that's not how things turned out . . .
(d) Noah's Ark, as described in the Bible, has a maxumum area of 2.5 acres. How did hundreds of thousands of mammals, reptiles, insects, and birds all fit in an area that small, along with enough food and fresh water to feed them for 14 months, as the Bible says?
(e) There were 7 humans on Noah's Ark. Who shoveled the s--- from all those animals?
(f) Many beleivers in "Creation Science"
allege that there were 7 of each type of dinosaur on Noah's Ark. Brontosaurous, stegasaurous, tyranosaurous rex, teradactyl, etc etc. How come the 7 tyranosaurous rexes didn't eat all the sheep? In fact, what did they eat?
Christians use the carbon dating process to "prove" the Shroud of Turin (the cloth allegedly used to wrap Jesus' corpse) is 2000 years old. Yet, they say carbon dating is not useful when it determines age of fossils to be older than the 8000 years they say the planet Earth is.
They are trying to have it both ways . . .
What this boils down to, is that "Creation Science" is NOT science at all, but only an attempt to disguise the Christian Fundamentalist beleif in the Bible's account of creation as . . . science.
Religious people have the right to deceive themselves and others as much as they like, but NOT on government property.
They cannot teach third graders the Catholic Catechism, fourth graders the doctrine of the Trinity, fifth graders the doctrine of eternal ****ation, and issue altar calls to sixth graders in facilities funded by taxpayers. But this is exactly what many Fundamentalist Christians want to do . . . they figure they don't have the children's ear in church on Sunday mornings, so they try to spread their religion where the kids are -- in public schools. They attempt to teach their doctrines not only to the children of Christian Fundamentalists, but to children of Jews, Moslems, Agnostics, Wiccans, Hindus, American Indians, and non-beleivers.
IMHO, it would be better to have the kids spend their time learning how to read and write and do math and improve their critical thinking skills. In fact, that is what the law requires . . .
Originally Posted by max2extreme
"Creation Science" is a religious philosophy, and is rejected by the vast majority of modern scientists, not only in the USA, but around the planet. And since it is a religious notion fraudulently presented as bona fide science, it is as out of place on the shelves of a government agency with education programs http://www.nps.gov/hove/education/index.htm directed at the general public.
There is no need to confuse innocent young minds with the false and unsubstantiated claims of "Creation Science." What they really need is to learn what Science actually is (check out the "Scientific Method") and teach 'em how to theorize, systematically test their theories, and evaluate their results, and continue to work to validate what they think is accurate information.
10-25-2004, 06:46 PM #14
I think it it reactionist to give this book this much attention. If they wanted to put a book in there that aliens or cave men carved it out who cares? It's an opinion, a theory, not a point of fact.
10-25-2004, 06:49 PM #15Christians use the carbon dating process to "prove" the Shroud of Turin (the cloth allegedly used to wrap Jesus' corpse) is 2000 years old.
10-25-2004, 06:58 PM #16Originally Posted by 1victor
It makes a difference to people who care whether or not what they are taught is reliable science or not.
If you take a look at the sort of books the Park Service sells
you'll notice they don't traffic much in fiction or religion. Their publications are generally assumed to represent scientific findings. Now, if religious people represent their books to be pure religion, not information gleaned through rigorous application of the Scientific Method, that would be one thing. But, they falsely represent their Bible-based religious notions as Science, and such books do not have a place beside educational texts.
10-25-2004, 07:02 PM #17Originally Posted by bermich
I'm sure a few partisan Democrats are making political hay out of Cheney's shot, but then so are a lot of independant old folks, who are not at all happy that the Bush administration's ineptitude left them with a version of "rationed health care." Ya, all of 'em want their flu shot, not too many of 'em are gonna get one, and a bunch of 'em are gonna die this winter because of it.
I'd say that's a good reason to complain.
10-25-2004, 07:21 PM #18Originally Posted by Tock
Why not complain about NFL players getting flu shots instead? Cheney at least fits the profile of someone who is stronlgy reccomended to get a flu shot.
10-25-2004, 07:31 PM #19Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
10-25-2004, 07:38 PM #20
10-25-2004, 08:34 PM #21
What kind of book is this??? A school book, or just an approved book for reading??
I think it is a crazy idea at first thought as well. But none of actually has the information on his theory either, do we??
Chrisitian familys have been sending ther kids to public schools where they teach them evolution for years now. I really dont see how everyone is ok with evolution being teached as the concrete theory for creation.
10-25-2004, 09:29 PM #22Originally Posted by Anhydro78
About the Author
Author Tom Vail and his wife are the founders of Canyon Ministries, which offers Christ-centered voyages through the canyon.
. . . so right off the bat, you have an idea it's written by a guy probably oriented more toward religion than science.
Then, the Amazon site says:
Explore the majesty and beauty of one of God’s greatest creations
Includes 20 Essays from Leading Grand Canyon Authorities:
I don't know all those people, but they aren't by any stretch of the imagination "Leading Grand Canyon authorities" any more than the folks cited in the "Weekly World News" or "National Enquirer" are "Leading authorities." I recognize several of these guys as founders, supporters, and employees of the "Institute for Creation Research," which is the sort of place where in order to get a job, you first have to sign a form that says you beleive in the Bible's account of Creation (there was a big to-do about that in the news a while back). So, pretty much, if you gotta be committed to one way of thinking about Creation, that tells ya what sort of results you are expected to come up with from any "research" you do. Chances are slim that if you find anything contrary to their religous dogma, then (1) it ain't gonna get published, and (2) you're gonna be out of a job.
So you can imagine what kind of independant thinking goes on there, and what kind of people would be happy working in such a place . . .
Originally Posted by Anhydro78
Originally Posted by Anhydro78
No need to knock evolution . . . it's going on all around you, even as we speak, and it's gonna result in some crazy medical stuff -- especially over the next century. Bizarre stuff. As amazing to us as a Hummer or cellphone would be to Abraham Lincoln.
10-25-2004, 09:53 PM #23New Member
Originally Posted by bermich
- Join Date
- Oct 2004
10-25-2004, 10:21 PM #24Originally Posted by Tock
10-26-2004, 01:32 AM #25Originally Posted by Tock
Not Bushes fault that there isnt enough vaxine. Notice that ALL ALL of congress has their flu shot.
What is Bush supposed to do? Shlt out more vaxines or however the hell it is spelled.
Half the batch was rejected. Not his fault. I say give the whiners the bad batch. 50 50 chance it will work.
I agree with the noah arc theory being bullshlt though. But talking about religion is something I dont get into. Pointless.
10-26-2004, 01:34 AM #26Originally Posted by antifascism
LOL. I never thought of him that way but they do share similar power traits. If it was an earlier era of time, Im sure Bush would try to take over the world in light of his views. Sweet.
10-26-2004, 02:11 AM #27Originally Posted by bermich
The FDA approved the British vaccine plant to produce stuff for the US; they also went over there and inspected it beforehand. It's their job to ensure that (legal) drugs imported into the US be safe. Since the Bush administration used that factory as a sole-source for flu vaccine (sole-sourcing anying is a bad idea), and they didn't catch the problems beforehand and let tens of millions of Americans down, it's only reasonable to peg the responsibility on the FDA, and they messed up on Bush's watch.
If such a thing happened on a Democrat's watch, the 'publicans would be just as quick to blame them. Fair is fair, tit for tat, etc.
Originally Posted by bermich
10-26-2004, 06:26 AM #28Originally Posted by Tock
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! it just goes to show, ignorance is everywhere.. mainly conentrated in the bush campain. spoken from a republican
10-26-2004, 08:27 AM #29
I cant believe in the 21st century that anyone lends any credence to a creationist.............. simple ignorance. They would have crucified John T. Scopes in the name of god if they had the chance.......
10-26-2004, 02:59 PM #30
Everything is going though genetic mutations all around us. All in positive ways proving the evolution theory is legit. I dont know enough about it to debate it really. From what I have read about it does seem to have holes in the argument. Subjects that I am fairly well educated in I can debate pretty well. And I myself know where the holes are at.
All I have to say is Missing Link.. You guys learned in college so it must be true or intelligent.. Right?? My little brother just had to turn in a extra credit report on the Quran, in an American History class. SO that must be the well educated way. right??? Anything that these arab liberal teachers teach is considered educated. I call it brain washing. Do you think these arab countrys would fill their colleges with die hard christian teachers. It just doesnt make sence to me.
10-26-2004, 03:25 PM #31
such ignorance, SHEEP.
its like when Galileo proposed the idea that the earth revolved around the sun. They had him put in jail because the thinking at the time was that the sun revolved around the earth because the earth was the center of gods creations.
10-26-2004, 05:07 PM #32
Religiion and creationists have their place in our society. It keeps many of them from doing bad things for fear of going to hell. If we all knew we were just here for a measely few years we might be more inclined to go nuts and take what we want from each other= Total chaos
10-26-2004, 05:10 PM #33Originally Posted by max2extreme
10-26-2004, 05:12 PM #34
Did you guys know that DNA mitochondria mutate at such a determined rate that we can determine age with them similar to how we do with carbon dating. And people think there is no concrete evidence that things evolve. Learned that last night from Discovery Science.
10-26-2004, 05:17 PM #35
Has anyone read the book titled "Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism"? I just started it yesterday and it's fantastic so far.
edit - the book is by Philip Kitcher
Last edited by ECoastVIP; 10-26-2004 at 05:30 PM.
10-26-2004, 06:09 PM #36Originally Posted by Benches505
I hardly see how a Fear Based religion could be of benefit to anybody.
Of course, that is what fundamentalism emphasizes--the "Turn or Burn" philosophy. And the poor schmucks who get entangled in it suffer . . .
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