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  1. #1
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Jews Not Zionists

    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

    http://www.nkusa.org/

    http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/





    1) What is "The people of Israel" ?

    -The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

    -It has its own particular, essential, nature.

    -The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

    -Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

    -Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

    -The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

    -Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

    2) What is Zionism ?

    -Zionism is a new thing.

    -It has only existed for a century.

    -Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.

    - a materialistic worldly nation.

    -Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

    -Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

    - This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

    3) The People of Israel Oppose This For 4 Reasons

    FIRST - Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as it explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel where permitted to have a state were two thousand years ago when the Glory of the Creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the Glory of the Creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. Then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service.

    However, a wordily state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substituted another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation." And the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize land and army.

    However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. And this is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather, it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

    SECOND - Because of all of this and other reasons Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

    THIRD - Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel, is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel are required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the Congregation of Israel.

    FOURTH -rom the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah, they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power, from fulfilling the commands of the Torah. They do this both with force and with trickery. Their claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight will all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

    4) The Zionists claim that they are the savers of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things.

    FIRST -If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel as in the period of the Zionists. And it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

    SECOND -It is openly stated in the books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did. They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and then helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today, they incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d Forbid). Weitzman said, The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant (May we be spared).

    THIRD -We see that most of the world Jewry, lives in security under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist state. Whereas many people have left the Zionist state to live under better conditions in other land.

    FOURTH -The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate too their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

    FIFTH - Because nobody wants the Zionists to "Save them". The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits. And even then very few people respond.

    SIXTH - The Zionist state is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry lives in peace and security. (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

    SEVENTH - The Zionist state could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist state.

    EIGHTH - The Zionist state is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

    NINTH - The Zionist state persecutes all Jews who are loyal to their faith.

    TENTH - They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

    ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

    TWELFTH - Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah. And the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost. It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

    5. Even though there are observant Jews and Rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

    - The people of Israel has existed for thousands of years.
    -It has its own particular, essential, nature.
    - The Torah is the source of its essential nature.
    - Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.
    - Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.
    - The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.
    - Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
    - They make it look like all Jewry and their Rabbis are
    Zionists, but this is false propaganda.
    - The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious
    Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American News media.
    - The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against
    them.
    - That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.
    - Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

    6) We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.
    1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. And in every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.


    2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.


    3) The founders of Zionism where all atheists who denied the Torah. And all the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.


    However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their faith. They are the strongest of the strong. Because of their strength the Creator gives them. Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure. Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force. With fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator. Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist state will cease to exist.


    4) It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because the entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that Name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.


    5) Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. And the truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one are three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.


    6) Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that state is a complete falsification. The people of Israel have nothing to do with the state. Zionism and its state have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 11-04-2004 at 06:44 PM.

  2. #2
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    Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

    It seems like Muslims are on the right side, fighting for GOD, once again. Because the state of Israel goes against the will of the one GOD, even in the Jewish interperation.

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    Religious Jews being attacked by the Zionist Regime.

    http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demo...acco101704.cfm

  4. #4
    wingsofazrael is offline Associate Member
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    good post, i knew there were jews against zionism.

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  6. #6
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    interesting, I would like to hear others views

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    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    This thread is amazingly dormant. Please anyone with an understanding of this chime in. I hate the term Zionist. It seems that caucasian is trying to draw fair distinction between worldy Jews (Zionists) and faithful ones.

    Is there truth to this ? (not saying you are lying Caucasian)

  8. #8
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    This thread is amazingly dormant. Please anyone with an understanding of this chime in. I hate the term Zionist. It seems that caucasian is trying to draw fair distinction between worldy Jews (Zionists) and faithful ones.

    Is there truth to this ? (not saying you are lying Caucasian)
    Yes. Rak_Ani and BOUNCER like to think that when I say Zionist, I am saying Jewish.

    I am trying to prove Zionism is a Bolshevik creation, not a Jewish one. The state of Israel was founded by Bolshevik's, non-religious Jews.

    And is supported by non-religious Jews.

    The nation of Israel was supposed to be created by GOD, you can read my whole post and see it.

  9. #9
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Even though my first post is long, its a good read.

    Here is an important part of it -

    - Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

    - Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

    - The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

    - Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

    - They make it look like all Jewry and their Rabbis are
    Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

    - The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are
    opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of
    the American News Media.


    - The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against
    them.

    - That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

    - Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

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    well this reminds me of Christians that alk the talk but don't walk the walk, the ones that give real Christians a bad name, like the terrorists give Muslims a bad name.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    well this reminds me of Christians that alk the talk but don't walk the walk, the ones that give real Christians a bad name, like the terrorists give Muslims a bad name.
    Very good analogy.

    Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed be He, in His Glory and Essence redeems us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as it explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And the Holy One, blessed be He, has warned us that if we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.
    GOD has said there will be a punishment for this action.

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    I wish I knew the answers but even more I wish that if I knew I could do something about ending wars and bringing peace all over this planet. (sounds like a corny beauty pageant statement)

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    Rak_Ani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Yes. Rak_Ani and BOUNCER like to think that when I say Zionist, I am saying Jewish.

    I am trying to prove Zionism is a Bolshevik creation, not a Jewish one. The state of Israel was founded by Bolshevik's, non-religious Jews.

    And is supported by non-religious Jews.

    The nation of Israel was supposed to be created by GOD, you can read my whole post and see it.
    You're the one who called the Jews from the time of Jesus "Zionists", not anyone else. No you're trying to cover for it with this silly thread.

    It's a silly thread because what you are posting is no news. There are so many different types of "streams" in Judaism. Even among the Orthodox (and the person here with an Orthodox father can support that) there are so many different types. It comes down to even the smallest things, let alone issues that deal with the existance of Israel.
    There's a stream of Jews that refuse to speak Hebrew, and will not recognize the existance of Israel because they believe the Massaya must come before Israel is created. Are they more or less Jewish than anyone else? Nope. They are just one stream of many. There are so many interpretations to every little thing in Judaism that obviously there will be many different ways of implimentation of each little thing. Zionism is not religious. No one ever claimed it was. Some of the biggest Zionists are not religious, just as some of the biggest Zionists are religious. I have posted in the past about Zionism. You (victor) can look through those posts, into the links, or run your own search and read about Zionism.

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    fair enough I will do that.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    The truth remains, Jewish teachings are against the Creation of the state of Israel, under man. It should be a creation of GOD. There is no talking your way around that.

    And true religious Jews see that. It is from the Torah. Your not religious, so you wouldnt know that.

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    Well whichever post stays truest to the Torah will be fact to me.

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    There are no varying degrees of truth.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Well whichever post stays truest to the Torah will be fact to me.
    http://middleeastinfo.org/article1677.html

    This article will explain alot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    The truth remains, Jewish teachings are against the Creation of the state of Israel, under man. It should be a creation of GOD. There is no talking your way around that.

    And true religious Jews see that. It is from the Torah. Your not religious, so you wouldnt know that.
    You're making a lot of assumptions here about me. I think you know me well enough by now to know that I don't talk about things I don't know. I'm not religious, that's true, but I am open to learn and a lot of my friends were religious in their past, a few were even orthodox. I learn a lot from them. Neturey Karta are the Jews you speak of. They are one stream. Many many other orthodox and non orthodox Jews do recognize the State of Israel. I don't think the Bible says not to live in Israel until the Massaya comes, but I will check that, be sure.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    You can tell the difference in their talk and their motives -

    Neturei National Anthem -
    G-d is our King,
    We are his servants
    The holy Torah is our Law
    We are loyal to it.
    We do not recognize the Heretic Zionist Regime
    Its laws do not apply to us
    We walk in the ways of the Torah
    In fire and water
    We walk in the ways of the Torah
    To Sanctify the Name of Heaven
    On the return of right issue.
    We seek the return of all Palestinian refugees to their rightful land.
    Peaceful People
    We seek to live in the land of Palestine as anti Zionist Jews. To reside as loyal and peaceful Palestinian citizens, in peace and harmony with our Muslim Brethren. Just as our ancestors lived in Palestine for centuries before the usurpations of this tragic century.

    A utopia will be formed, all nations will live together in peace, people will pray together (Jews and non-Jews) and all will live in harmony.
    Their Zionist Enemies.
    Zionist will oppress and persecute any who stand in their way, regardless if they are their own Jewish people, Arabs, Palestinians, Americans, etc. The Zionist will not stop until they have redemption of the land.

  21. #21
    Rak_Ani's Avatar
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    I also don't think that you, Causasian, are in a position to judge what a true Jew is.

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I also don't think that you, Causasian, are in a position to judge what a true Jew is.
    No human can judge that. But I am taking this info from Pious Jews.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

    I find them to be hypocrites, as many of them live in Israel. They don't work. Instead they live off funds paid to them by the Israeli government, and still they reject the existance of Israel. So Israel is good enough to finance them, but not good enough to exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    No human can judge that. But I am taking this info from Pious Jews.

    If no human can judge that, why did you write it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

    I find them to be hypocrites, as many of them live in Israel. They don't work. Instead they live off funds paid to them by the Israeli government, and still they reject the existance of Israel. So Israel is good enough to finance them, but not good enough to exist.
    They dont reconize the state of Israel, as you mentioned. How can you call a true jew, who is a true follower of the Torah a hypocrite? When you are living in the Jewish state, and arent religious?

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    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    If no human can judge that, why did you write it?
    You can tell a pious jew from a non-pious jew. I can tell a religious muslim from a non-religious muslim. I can tell a religious christian from a non-religious christian.

    But I cant tell their intention. Only GOD can judge if their intention is true or fake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    They dont reconize the state of Israel, as you mentioned. How can you call a true jew, who is a true follower of the Torah a hypocrite? When you are living in the Jewish state, and arent religious?

    Because I don't call for the destruction of the hand that feeds me.

    If they don't believe in Israel, they should leave the country and go WORK to survive. Not sit on their asses all day living off our taxes and calling for our destruction.
    Other than that, Israel isn't a Jewish state. It's a DEMOCRATIC Jewish state, and there's a difference. One of the Israeli basic laws (basic laws are laws that cannot be changed) is about the freedom of worship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    You can tell a pious jew from a non-pious jew. I can tell a religious muslim from a non-religious muslim. I can tell a religious christian from a non-religious christian.

    But I cant tell their intention. Only GOD can judge if their intention is true or fake.
    You can tell religious from non religious, but you can't tell true from fake, because in Judaism there are so many different types and streams that no one, not even the Jews can say one is better than the other.

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    There are clearly fine lines involved in this that disqualify me from participating

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    There are clearly fine lines involved in this that disqualify me from participating
    You are more than welcome to ask questions.

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    My feeling is whichever sect of the Jewish religion adheres to the word of the Torah should take precedence but I have not read it for myself. So I can't offer an opinion.

    Just like my religion everyone else thinks they are right. There are nuances in the word that can be translated in different ways. Clearly it is is the eyes of the translator where the truth lies. This is where the translators personal issues taint the actual word.

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    antifascism is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Because I don't call for the destruction of the hand that feeds me.

    If they don't believe in Israel, they should leave the country and go WORK to survive. Not sit on their asses all day living off our taxes and calling for our destruction.
    Other than that, Israel isn't a Jewish state. It's a DEMOCRATIC Jewish state, and there's a difference. One of the Israeli basic laws (basic laws are laws that cannot be changed) is about the freedom of worship.

    "democratic jewish state"......lolol....thats so funny. so how the hell is it democratic when u declare that it is jewish also. so u saying it cant be non-jewish then.....how is that democratic?
    and by the way CAUSASIAN, excellent post. i have mentioned the jews who are against zionism to rak ani before....but she never addressed the realities, because like i said before she needs to believe that her own country is good and peacfull. she must live in denial for the sake of her own sanity. rak ani, i suggest u change your avatar back to the israeli flag, because u cannot / do not represent peace, you represent a very sophisticated dictatorship that had fooled its own ppl for generations into believeing they live in a democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antifascism
    "democratic jewish state"......lolol....thats so funny. so how the hell is it democratic when u declare that it is jewish also. so u saying it cant be non-jewish then.....how is that democratic?
    and by the way CAUSASIAN, excellent post. i have mentioned the jews who are against zionism to rak ani before....but she never addressed the realities, because like i said before she needs to believe that her own country is good and peacfull. she must live in denial for the sake of her own sanity. rak ani, i suggest u change your avatar back to the israeli flag, because u cannot / do not represent peace, you represent a very sophisticated dictatorship that had fooled its own ppl for generations into believeing they live in a democracy.
    Yes, democratic Jewish state. If you want to understand how that works, go to an Israeli high school and study "state studies" (don't know how to translate that to English) for two years, or to university and take a relevant course.
    Neturei Karta are few, and I believe I have addressed the issue properly in this thread.
    I have also never claimed to represent peace. I represent myself and my views. If you don't like that, either put me on ignore or shut your eyes whenever you see a post written by me.

    Do yourself a favor and try to write more posts about your own ideas and views rather than mine.

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    antifascism is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Yes, democratic Jewish state. If you want to understand how that works, go to an Israeli high school and study "state studies" (don't know how to translate that to English) for two years, or to university and take a relevant course.
    Neturei Karta are few, and I believe I have addressed the issue properly in this thread.
    I have also never claimed to represent peace. I represent myself and my views. If you don't like that, either put me on ignore or shut your eyes whenever you see a post written by me.

    Do yourself a favor and try to write more posts about your own ideas and views rather than mine.
    ok thanks for proving my point that israel is not a democratic state. and no thanks im not interested in any israeli education. and no i wont stop commenting on your posts because ppl need to realise YOUR realities. your realities = the ethnic cleansing of palastinians for the sake of maintaining the undecomratic state of jewish israel. it would be so much fun if i ever could go on a debate with you face to face. i would bet the debate would be over after 10 minutes, i will point out all the facts and you will, in frustaration and in compliance to your own evil nature, grab your AK-47 and shoot me.

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    antifascism is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Yes, democratic Jewish state. If you want to understand how that works, go to an Israeli high school and study "state studies" (don't know how to translate that to English) for two years, or to university and take a relevant course.
    Neturei Karta are few, and I believe I have addressed the issue properly in this thread.
    I have also never claimed to represent peace. I represent myself and my views. If you don't like that, either put me on ignore or shut your eyes whenever you see a post written by me.

    Do yourself a favor and try to write more posts about your own ideas and views rather than mine.
    and thanks for pointing out that you do not represent peace.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I also don't think that you, Causasian, are in a position to judge what a true Jew is.
    and u have no right to judge or asume who is a terrorist or not !

    basically i would like to post a lot form the torah here to open your eyes , but then again u r not religious nor are some other jewish kids on this board ! so it wouldnt do any good

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    and u have no right to judge or asume who is a terrorist or not!
    ARE YOU FOR REAL?..

    Rak_Ani can answer this one for herself. But speaking as someone who's both grown up with terror in my land and someone who's spent a considerable about of time in Israel I'll ask you this..

    Do you think that someone who sits in traffic beside a bus, hoping it won't explode beside them is qualified to judge was a terrorist is?.

    Do you think that someone who scans people walking into a bar, club, cafe etc and hope their not coming to murder them is qualified to judge what a terrorist is?.

    Or walks past a garbage bin, or parked car and hoping it won't explode, ripping them to bits is qualified to judge what a terrorist is?.

    How about someone who watches the news everytime a friend of family member is out, praying to god a terrorist isn't going to murder them, are they qualified to judge what a terrorist is?

    These are emotions I've felt both here in Ireland and in my travels through Israel (and other countries). If I feel them, I'm pretty confident Rak_Ani does too, but like I said. She can speak for herself on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    ARE YOU FOR REAL?
    yeah man .............. since the day i reverted to islam , i grew up a small beard on my chin its more like a goatie .............and guess what everyone at work thinks i am a terrorist although i am white , but since i changed my name to a muslim one , people who i have known for over 3 - 4 yrs LOOK FUNNY at me ! go figure

    but i am not saying u really cant distinguish between a terrorist or a regular person since , the innocent are getting bombed for one A-hole terrosit hiding in the neighbourhood .............. talk about accuracy !

  39. #39
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    Zoaib,
    You're trying to compare actions to beliefs. Being a Jew isn't something you "do". It's something you believe. It's faith. You can't judge who believes more or who believes better. Terror is something you do, and therefore of course you can tell who a terrorist is. A terrorist is someone who is actively terrorizing. And yes, I can judge who a terrorist is, and so can any courtroom in any country.
    Simple.

  40. #40
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    Causasian and 1victor,

    As I said, I checked for you regarding what is says in the Tora about living in Israel. Earlier today I spoke to a former orthodox friend of mine about it. He says that there's nothing in the Bible that says not to live in Israel. The reason the Neturei Karta don't recognize the state of Israel is because they believe that the only way Israel should exist is if it's a religious Jewish state, and that the only way for a religious Jewish state to exist properly is as a kingdom under the rule of the "king" (the massaya).
    That's it. Everything they believe is based on their own interpretations, and as I said, that doesn't make them better or worse Jews.

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