11-11-2004, 09:49 AM #1
How can muslims discredit all jewish/christian scripture
What I think is intresting about your guys religion is the Jewish religion had a good enough reputation to base your religion off of. But you discredit the scripture of people that had more interaction with god than Muhammed could ever have even thought of. muhammed didnt ever get to see or touch god. So the people that have like Abraham and others wasnt important enough to God to provide an accurate discription of their events.
You believe in all the same people but some how these people that interacted with god never had an accurate scribe untill 600 A.D. When muhammed began his religion.
I mean Gods only son came and walked the earth teaching the Jews, but some how god didnt think it was important enough to inspire one person to write down an accurate discription of his teachings. Five people wrote about him and not one of them got it right???
My question to you guys is, Is muhammed the most important biblical figure in your eyes. Even exceeding even Gods only son Jesus???
These are the things I have problems with the muslim religion. I can actually handle saying the muslim religion does have a stake in gods promises. But your book discredits books full of scripture that was written by God inspired people. The Quran gives no history on the key biblical figures, SO even if you consider the book God inspired it still leaves alot of information out.
You guys would have to read the Bible just to even figure out what the Quran was talking about..
Im not trying to argue, I would just like to know how it is so easy for the muslim followers to discredit all scripture except the Quran???
11-11-2004, 09:53 AM #2
It suits their purpose. Yes they believe Muhammad is above Jesus.
11-11-2004, 10:01 AM #3
My point is God himself did some pretty impressive things and interacted with Biblical figures way more than muhammed ever had. In fact Im willing to bet there isnt a documented miracle in the entire Quran.
Moses had more interaction with God than anyone besides jesus and some how god went through the all the trouble with freeing his people from being slaves, feeding them manna for 40 years in the desert, took a primative nomadic tribe and turned them into a civialized people. But God didnt think it was important enough to inspire accurate instructions for these people to follow???
I just thinking Im missing something here!!!
11-11-2004, 10:12 AM #4
No you are not........ you are seeing things as they are.
11-11-2004, 11:03 AM #5
First of all Islam is not based on anything, GOD wanted to bring down a version of his word, that was uncorrupted by man.
Muhammed (PBUH) visited GOD himself in the highest levels of heaven.
Many people didnt accept Moses (PBUH) the people that did were Jews, then Jesus (PBUH) came down, many people accepted his teachings, Jews and other rejected it, the Mohammed (PBUH) came down, Jews, Christians and many others rejected his teachings.
The Bible wasnt written during the time of Jesus (PBUH), and Saul who wrote many books in the Bible didnt even meet Jesus (PBUH).
We belive there are some parts in the Bible that are correct, and no we dont have to read the Bible to understand the Quran. But Islam reccomends that we read the 5 holy books of GOD, some Revealed Books have known names such as the Zabur (Psalms) of David عليه السلام , Torah of Moses عليه السلام , Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus عليه السلام and the Qur'an of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and the names of other Revealed Books are not known.
The last book is lost I belive.
Jesus (PBUH) unlike Muhammed (PBUH) and Moses (PBUH) was delivered by unsual birth in the Quran.
[19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location.
[19:17] While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being.
[19:18] She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous."
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
[19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."
[19:21] He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' "
[19:22] When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.
[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten."
[19:24] (The infant) called her from beneath her, saying, "Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.
[19:25] "If you shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will drop ripe dates for you.
[19:26] "Eat and drink, and be happy. When you see anyone, say, `I have made a vow of silence to the Most Gracious*; I am not talking today to anyone.' '
[19:27] She came to her family, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have committed something that is totally unexpected.
[19:28] "O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."
[19:29] She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
[19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
[19:31] "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
[19:32] "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[19:37] The various parties disputed among themselves (regarding the identity of Jesus). Therefore, woe to those who disbelieve from the sight of a terrible day.
[19:38] Wait till you hear them and see them when they come to face us. The transgressors on that day will be totally lost.
Mary (PBUH) is the ONLY women mentioned in the Quran.
Mohammed is mentioned in the Quran 25 times
Jesus is mentioned in the Quran 97 times
Plus in Sunni Islam, we belive alteast my school, that at the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, Jesus (PBUH) will come down, with a military leader, to bring the end of the Earth.
Say ye: "We believe in Allah,
And the revelation given to us,
And to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac,
Jacob, and the Tribes,
And that given to Moses and Jesus
And that given to (all)
Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
(Holy Qur'an 2:136).
11-11-2004, 11:12 AM #6
In Islamic legend, Muhammad is reported to have gone on a mysterious night journey into heaven. Islamic sources state this happened "in the spirit," his body remaining behind. In this legend, Muhammad is prepared for his meeting with God by the archangels Jibril and Mikail one evening while he is asleep in the Ka'bah, the sacred shrine of Mecca. They open up his body and purify his heart by removing all traces of error, doubt, idolatry, and paganism and by filling it with wisdom and belief. An animal by the name of Buraq, apparently horse-like and white, and with a human face, was provided for a ride from the mosque in Mecca to the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, from where he ascended, supposedly on a ladder of light to the seven heavens. In the first heaven Muhammad meets Adam; in the second, John the Baptist and Jesus; in the third, Joseph; in the fourth, Enoch; in the fifth, Aaron; in the sixth, Moses; and in the seventh, Abraham (who welcomed him as "Good son and good prophet"). Fifty prayers were ordained by Allah to be said by all believers daily. On the journey back, Moses, in the sixth heaven, encouraged Muhammad to go back to the seventh heaven and request a smaller quota, since this large number would be rather impractical to execute. Ten daily prayers were deducted. Again Moses encouraged Muhammad to go back and ask for still fewer prayers, which was repeated three times, until five daily were set for observance. This Muhammad did not dare query.
The legend also provides teachings on what to expect at the time of death. According to legend, Muhammad states that the ladder on which he ascended to heaven was "that to which the dying man looks when death approaches." A similar concept is described in medieval literature where, at death, the soul is escorted by angels through seven heavens to the throne of God where it receives a preliminary reckoning and is then returned to the grave to await Judgment day.
The following is the full account from the "Siratu'l Rasul" vs. 270-271.
After the Prophet took this night journey from Masjid al-Haram to Masjid al-Aqsa, he ascended to the upper heavens. When the Prophet and Jibril arrived at the first heaven, Jibril requested the gate to be opened. The angel assigned to that gate asked Jibril, "Who is with you?" Jibril answered, "It is Muhammad." The angel asked Jibril, "Was he dispatched? Is it time for him to ascend to the heaven?" Jibril said, "Yes." So, the gate was opened for him, and Prophet Muhammad entered the first heaven.
There, Prophet Muhammad saw Prophet Adam. To Adam's right, the Prophet saw some bodies, and to Adam's left, other bodies. If Adam would look to his right he would laugh, and if he would look to his left he would cry. Adam was seeing the souls of his descendants. Those on his right were his descendants who would die as believers and those on his left were his descendants who would die as non-believers.
Then the Prophet ascended to the second heaven. In this second heaven was where Prophet Muhammad saw Prophets Jesus and John the Baptist. Jesus and John the Baptist are cousins; their mothers were sisters. They welcomed the Prophet and made supplication for him for good things. The Prophet ascended to the third heaven, where he found Prophet Joseph. Prophet Joseph was extremely handsome. Allah bestowed half the beauty on Joseph. Joseph received the Prophet with a warm welcome and made supplication for him for good things.
Then the Prophet ascended to the fourth heaven, where he found Prophet Enoch. Enoch welcomed the Prophet and made supplication for him for good things. In the fifth heaven, the Prophet encountered Aaron, the brother of Prophet Moses. In the sixth heaven, he encountered Prophet Moses. Each of these Prophets received Prophet Muhammad with a warm welcome and made supplication for him for good things.
Then the Prophet ascended to the seventh heaven, and that is where our Messenger saw Prophet Abraham. The Prophet saw Prophet Abraham with his back against al-Bayt al-Ma^mur. To the inhabitants of the skies, al-Bayt al-Ma^mur is like the Ka^bah is to us, the inhabitants of the earth. Every day 70,000 angels go there; then exit from it, and never return. The next day another 70,000 angels go, come out, and never return. This will continue until the Day of Judgment. In this, there is an indication as to the greatness of the numbers of the angels - their numbers are far more than the numbers of the humans and the devils together.
In the seventh heaven, Prophet Muhammad saw Sidrat al-Muntaha - a very big tree of sidr. Each of the fruits of this tree is as large as a big jar. The leaves of this tree are similar to the ears of the elephants. Sidrat al-Muntaha is an extremely beautiful tree. It is visited by butterflies made of gold. When these butterflies gather on this tree, its beauty is beyond description.
Then the Prophet ascended to what is beyond the seven skies; he entered Paradise. He saw examples of the inhabitants of Paradise and how their situation would be. He saw most of the inhabitants of Paradise are the poor people.
The Prophet saw other things on the night of his ascension. He saw Malik, the angel in charge of the Hellfire. Malik did not smile at the Prophet when he saw him, and the Prophet asked why. In answer to the Prophet's question, Jibril said, "Malik did not smile since the day Allah created him. Had he smiled for anyone, he would have smiled for you."
In Paradise, the Prophet saw some of the bounties Allah prepared for the inhabitants of Paradise. He saw the Hur ul-^In: females Allah created who are not humans or devils. They are in Paradise and will be married to those men Allah willed them to marry.
The Prophet saw the wildan ul-mukhalladun: creations of Allah who are not human, devils, or angels. They are a very beautiful creation of Allah whose appearance is like laid-out pearls. They are servants of the inhabitants of Paradise. The least in status of the People of Paradise will have 10,000 wildan ul-mukhalladun to serve him. Each one of them would carry a tray of gold in one hand and a tray of silver in the other hand.
The Prophet saw the Throne, which is the ceiling of Paradise. The Throne is the largest creation of Allah in size; Allah did not create anything bigger in size than it. The seven heavens and the earth in comparison to the Kursiyy are like a ring thrown in a desert, and the Kursiyy in comparison to the Throne is like a ring thrown in a desert. The seven heavens and the earth in comparison to the Throne are like a seed of mustard compared to the ocean. Allah created the Throne as a sign of his Power and he did not create the Throne to sit on it.
Allah created the Throne to show his Power. It is carried by four angels, and on the Day of Judgment, it will be carried by eight. The Prophet said he was permitted to speak about one of these angels who carry the Throne. In describing this angel, the Prophet told us the distance between his ear lobe and shoulder is the distance a fast-flying bird would cover in 700 years.
Then the Prophet ascended beyond Paradise. He reached a place where he heard the creaking of the pens used by the angels who are copying from the Preserved Tablet. It is at that location Prophet was given the obligation of the five Obligatory Prayers.
At first, Allah obligated fifty prayers. When Prophet Muhammad encountered Moses, Moses told him to make supplication to his Lord to ease the obligation of fifty prayers, because his nation could not handle that. Moses said, "I have experience with the people of Israel, and I know your nation cannot bear that." So the Prophet asked his Lord to lessen these prayers for his people. Five prayers were eliminated. Once again, Moses told the Prophet to ask Allah to lessen the number of prayers. Allah did. Nine times the Prophet made supplication to Allah to lessen these prayers - until these prayers were lessened to five Obligatory Prayers. So Prophet Moses was a great benefit to us. Had we been obligated to pray fifty prayers a day, this would have been a difficult matter for us.
Also, Allah told the Prophet a good deed would be written for the person who intends to do a good deed, even if he did not do it. Also, the good deed performed would be registered for he who performs it as at least ten good deeds - up to 700 good deeds. For some people, Allah would multiply the reward of their deeds more than that. Additionally, if one performs a bad deed, it is registered for him as one bad deed; yet for the one who inclines towards committing a bad deed and then refrains from committing it, a good deed would be registered for him. Here, one should note the difference between two matters. If a thought crossed a person's mind about doing something sinful, and this person wavered in this thinking, i.e., considered whether he should do it or not, then he refrained from doing this for the sake of Allah, this is written as a good deed. However, if a person has the firm intention in his heart that he wants to commit a sin, it would be written for him as a sin, even if he does not do it. "Although Muhammad's ascension, considered strictly, was a unique privilege, it became common for religious writers to speak of devotional practices (from ordinary ritual prayer to the ecstatic invocations and dances of the Sufi brotherhoods) as ways to accompany the Prophet on his journey to heaven. The Miraj was a favorite theme of Sufi poetry and art. Jalaluddin Rumi, the thirteenth-century Sufi poet, declares that the aim of spiritual life is to "die before you die" and, like Muhammad, to ascend to that intimacy with God which he has withheld from angels and yet granted to his servants and lovers
11-11-2004, 11:17 AM #7
Thanks to Moses (PBUH) we Muslims have to pray only 5 times a day instead of fifty
11-11-2004, 11:53 AM #8
Paul did get struck down by jesus on his way to give orders to kill the christians.
What gospel is it that the Quran requires its readers to read.. And do you consider the books required for reading by the Quran infallible??
I have read that part of the Quran when it mentions the mother mary.
I know the story of muhammed being taken in person to heaven. There is only two other people in the bible taken in person to heaven.
If you are required to read psalms did you read the psalm I posted that describes christ??
And you guys believe that Jesus is the son of god correct????
11-11-2004, 12:04 PM #9
No, we belive Jesus (PBUH) is a Prophet of GOD.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
[4:172] The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshipping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.
[4:173] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them, and shower them with His grace. As for those who disdain and turn arrogant, He will commit them to painful retribution. They will find no lord beside GOD, nor a savior.
And none of the reading of the books is required, it is reccomended.
11-11-2004, 12:12 PM #10
If you dont beileve he is the son of god and didnt die on a cross, there would be little point in reading the gospels.
I dont know if you read my original post, but god showed his power through moses and met with him face to face. You guys believe in moses right? So do you not think that since god had so much invested in his people and their leader to at least give them God inspired teachings and Law???
My point is this, God interacted with the Jews for thousands of years. Why would you think he wouldnt have inspired scripture during this entire time. You have to admit that God interacted with the Jews far more than he has with the muslims. So what makes you think that God was just wasting his time for thousands of years just to start to interact with the arabs about 600 A.D. or so..
11-11-2004, 12:21 PM #11
No race, color or gender are chosen by GOD in Islam. Everyone is evaluated by his Good Deeds.
Allah Almighty Said in the Quran:
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"
Muslims believe that the idea of "Chosen People" is a Jewish lie that was fabricated and inserted into the Bible to make the People of Israel be the Superior over all nations. The Bible, however, admits that it got corrupted by the Jews themselves, thus making their bogus claims get flushed right down the toilet.
11-11-2004, 12:22 PM #12
Isnt Ishmael an Arab? So that date of 600 AD, is false.
11-11-2004, 12:28 PM #13Originally Posted by Anhydro78
11-11-2004, 12:34 PM #14
For me when it speaks of choosen people in the Old Testament this was gods first followers. He did choose them, But that doesnt mean that other races of people dont have a stake in the religion. Anyone can get curcumsized and follow the law and they are a jew. God sent his som Jesus to appeal to the Gentiles. Everyone has a stake in this religion.
You get what im saying though??Right?? Yeah and good one with Ishmael.. My point is this. God interacted with the jews and displayed his power through them. This religion was well known and surrounding cultures knew that the Jews had a god of their own. If it wasnt for this Muhammed wouldnt have been able to establish a religion/following for this religion if it didnt allready have reputation.
Probally something that would be intresting to me would the actual verses in the Quran that say all the Jewish/christian scripture is corrupted.
Also if it mentions anything about god inspiring scripture but man later tainting it.
I know you have some sence to ya. You personally cant believe that through thousands of years of interaction with god. Nobody got it right. Nothing that God did before 600 A.D. means anything to him and was a total waste.
11-11-2004, 12:45 PM #15
No as I said, we belive it was corrupted, meaning it isnt false, but it was corrupted, and you belive it wasnt, and if I was you I would belive it wasnt corrupted either.
Its hard to explain, but we belive that the first time GOD "preached" he preached a religion that is Islam, making the first followers Muslims. The names dont matter as much.
Here are few verses in the Quran that talks about the corruption of the Bible, there are more, I will post them later.
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Noble Verse 5:13
"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment." Noble Verse 5:41
11-11-2004, 01:08 PM #16
I agree with you that the jews repeatedly ignored their covenant. They would take in foreign women into their homes and let their houses be corrupted by Idols. They killed what I believe to be the messiah and as Jesus said they have been killing their prophets for ages.
I do not see where those Quran verses say that the scripture itself was corrupted. It speaks of the Jews being corrupted but not their scripture.
The reason I ask all these questions is because I want to believe that the muslim religion has its place. But I have a hard time with it when it discredits everything God did to begin with.
Also are those Quran verses?? I dont have a section in my Quran called Noble?? Or do I???
11-11-2004, 01:19 PM #17Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
Salaam wa alikum , i guess i am BACK !
nice post Causasian !
11-12-2004, 11:26 AM #18Originally Posted by Anhydro78
Here is what he said in a Hadith -
Muhammed (PBUH) said: Whatever the people of the Book [Jews and Christians] tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Knowledge (Kitab Al-Ilm), Book 25, Number 3637)"
"And from those who said: "We are Christians," We took their covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message which was sent to them. Therefore We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, and Allah will inform them of what they used to do. O people of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger (Muhammad) come to you, explaining to you much of that which you used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Indeed, there has come to you a light from Allah and a plain Scripture. Wherewith Allah guides him who seeks His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He brings them out of darkness by His will into light, and guides them to a straight path. They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then has the least power against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say; Why then does He punish you for your sins? No, you are but mortals of His creating. He forgives whom He will, and punishes [for their sins] whom He will. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the return [of all]. O people of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger (Muhammad) come unto you to make things plain after a break in [the series of] the messengers, lest you should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any Warner. Now has a messenger of cheer and a Warner come unto you. And Allah is Able to do all things. (The Noble Quran, 5:14-19)"
"Of the Jews are those who change words from their places and say: 'We hear (your words O Muhammad) and disobey; hear you as one who hears not' and 'give us concession' with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of religion(Islam). But if only they had said: 'We hear and we obey' and 'Do make us understand' it would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except a few. (The Noble Quran, 4:46)"
11-12-2004, 12:11 PM #19
I keep hearing that "....bible is corrupted, not false..." Im confused how if you say the bible is corrupted, how it wouldnt be false also. I dont believe it is either one, but that line confuses me.
11-12-2004, 12:23 PM #20
Basically some parts are true. Its not entirely false.
11-20-2004, 11:52 PM #21
Ishmael , the brother of Isaac was not a muslim - Islam did not exist in his time but from his loins sprouted some arab groups....
Islam is heavily based upon judaism... do not try to refute that ...
And " Allah " , isn't the the name of an old arab " moon god " as well as the " monotheistic figurehead " of islam ?
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