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  1. #1
    BigGreen's Avatar
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    More fun with IQ...

    Could it be the case after all of this employing of IQ statistics to say something meaningful about the election, it is actually the case that Bush trumps Kerry in this regard?

    December 6, 2004 issue

    Copyright © 2004 The American Conservative

    Bush’s Brain

    The candidates’ comparative IQ scores don’t conform to the cliché.

    By Steve Sailer

    For a moment, I thought Sen. John F. Kerry was the exception to the rule that all liberals are secretly obsessed—even though they tell each other they don’t believe in it—with IQ.

    The Thursday before the election, Tom Brokaw interviewed Kerry on the “NBC Nightly News” and told him, “Someone has analyzed the president’s military aptitude tests and yours and concluded that he has a higher IQ than you do.”

    Kerry instantly dismissed this news with admirable nonchalance, “That’s great. More power.”

    I was especially interested in Kerry’s response because that “someone” who had estimated Kerry’s and Bush’s IQs was me.

    I had long been struck by how so many liberals were convinced that Bush was an idiot compared to Kerry. For example, Howell Raines, the former executive editor of the New York Times, asked: “Does anyone in America doubt that Kerry has a higher IQ than Bush? I’m sure the candidates’ SATs and college transcripts would put Kerry far ahead.”

    Yet the scarlet letters “IQ” had almost never appeared in Raines’s Times. Ten years ago, The Bell Curve proved an enormous bestseller, but the backlash against the book banished IQ from the media. Still, as politically incorrect as cognitive tests have become, colleges and the military have not dropped them. They are simply too useful in sorting large numbers of applicants.

    Nor have people stopped talking privately about IQ—especially liberals, who seem to believe, with deepest sincerity, both that IQ is an utterly discredited concept and that liberals are better than conservatives because liberals have much higher IQs.

    Democrats constantly sneer at Republicans’ IQs. Misspelling “potato” ended Dan Quayle’s political career, and Google lists 225,000 web pages—few of them complimentary—that include the words “Bush” and “IQ.”

    In 2001, some jokers issued a prank press release claiming the (nonexistent) “Lovenstein Institute” had scientifically proven that Bill Clinton has a (Galileo-like) IQ of 182, while George H.W. Bush (who was graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Yale in 2.5 years) had a below average 98 and his son (who has degrees from Yale and Harvard) only a 91. Garry Trudeau fell for this transparent nonsense and shoved it into “Doonesbury.”

    Similarly, last May hundreds of liberal websites and even the august Economist magazine succumbed to another IQ hoax, this one claiming that the average IQ in states that voted for Gore was absurdly higher (for example, 113 in Connecticut) than in states that voted Bush (87 in Utah). Immediately following Bush’s victory, this fictitious table spread over the Internet again.

    In truth, I don’t believe anybody has measured average state IQs since the huge post-Sputnik Project TALENT study in 1960. If you look instead at a rough proxy such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress achievement tests for public-school eighth graders, you’ll find that Gore states beat Bush states by only a tiny amount.

    A more direct comparison of the parties’ voters can be found in the 2000 exit poll, where Bush voters reported an average educational level negligibly greater than Gore voters. Gore did best among high-school dropouts and those who had undertaken postgraduate studies, with Bush leading among those in between. (Many Democrats with advanced degrees, by the way, are public-school teachers with credentials in the easy field of education.)

    In the 2002 midterm elections, voters supporting Republican House candidates were particularly well-educated. The GOP won 58 percent to 40 percent among college graduates and even captured a majority among postgrads for the first time in many years.

    In 2004, Bush’s majority was more downscale. If you assume that high-school dropouts averaged 10 years of schooling, high-school grads 12 years, those who attended college but didn’t graduate 14 years, college grads 16, and postgrads 18, then Kerry voters claimed 14.64 years of education and Bush voters 14.48 years or only about six weeks less schooling.

    Democrats’ denunciations of the president’s IQ bemuse me because Bush strikes me as a lazy but clever and unscrupulous operator who, ever since he quit drinking in 1987, has contrived to get whatever he wants out of life. As I wrote in the Oct. 11 American Conservative in a review of John Sayles’s film “Silver City,” in which Chris Cooper portrays a moronic politician with Bush’s mannerisms, “In the president’s lone losing race, his 1978 run for Congress from West Texas, the victor stressed Bush’s two Ivy League degrees. Bush resolved never to allow himself to be outdumbed again. And the Democrats haven’t outsmarted him since.”

    Back in 1999, Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, and I estimated from Bush’s SAT of 1206 (about 1280 under the easier scoring system adopted in 1995) that his IQ fell somewhere around the 95th percentile. The late leftist historian Jim Chapin estimated that Bush’s IQ of roughly 125 probably falls in the second quartile of presidents, a little below average, while Al Gore, who scored about 10 points higher, was in the third quartile. You don’t have to be a genius to be president.

    In contrast to Bush, Kerry is from Massachusetts, where intellectual pretensions are popular. Yet there was little hard evidence that Kerry was as brilliant as his flatterers claimed. Unlike Bush, who attended Harvard Business School, Kerry went to plebian Boston College for law school, and his transcripts and test scores appeared to be locked away.

    Then a Navy vet named Sam Sewell pointed out to me that the Kerry campaign had posted online an obscure military report giving the cryptic score Kerry had made on the IQ-like test he took when he applied to Officer Candidate School in 1966. After three weeks of research, I determined that Kerry had achieved the average score for applicants to OCS.

    In comparison, Bush scored somewhat above average on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test, which was normed against applicants to the Air Force Academy. Those are both good scores—officer applicants are well above the national average. The two men were clearly fairly similar in mental ability when seniors at Yale. Based on my research into the details of these two similar but different tests, if I had to bet, I’d wager Bush would have scored higher if they had both taken the same test back in the Sixties.

    When Kerry insouciantly replied to Brokaw as if he didn’t care what he scored on a 90-minute exam 38 years ago, as if he believed that all that he had accomplished since then was the proper measure of the man, I was impressed.

    But then Kerry broke the spell by quibbling about my research, “I don’t know how they’ve done it, because my record is not public. So I don’t know where you’re getting that from.” Evidently, IQ mattered to Kerry, too.

    A few days later, Brokaw went on Don Imus’s radio show and revealed just how much it bugged Kerry that I had said Bush probably had a slightly higher IQ. After the cameras had stopped rolling, Kerry had rationalized to Brokaw, “I must have been drinking the night before I took that military aptitude test.”

  2. #2
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    $10 says if this thread were about Kerry having a higher IQ than Bush it would already be 2 pages long..........


    Anyway, I think all of this estimated IQ stuff is garbage. IQ tests themselves aren't that reliable, just like any other type of test. It only tests your knowledge of the material. Someone with a great vocabulary would do well, even if they sucked at math, or vice versa, depending upon how the IQ test was done. Its been a while since I've taken one, I think one said I had a 153 IQ, the other said I had an 95 IQ. So which is right?


    Besides, you can't really debate who is smarter between Bush or Kerry, much less by using *estimated* IQ scores.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
    Its been a while since I've taken one, I think one said I had a 153 IQ, the other said I had an 95 IQ. So which is right?

    The second one

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    don't you take REAL IQ tests at like a psychologist or something?? the ones here on the net are not like the truthful IQ tests there are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
    $10 says if this thread were about Kerry having a higher IQ than Bush it would already be 2 pages long..........

    I certainly agree with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    (Many Democrats with advanced degrees, by the way, are public-school teachers with credentials in the easy field of education.)
    I especially took offence to this comment… It just goes to show you how wrong this guy is. The authors of the “The Bell Curve” were discredited many years ago. One of the authors had a Ph.D. in theoretical psychology and the other was a political science teacher. It could be easily argued, and has been, that neither author is an expert in cognitive processes. However, still it was a good read. I love when people try to guess other’s IQ’s. Jesus is supposed to have a 170 IQ... Does that mean Steven Hawkins is smarter than Jesus is?


    I love these kinds of articles… Thanks BG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy
    I especially took offence to this comment… It just goes to show you how wrong this guy is. The authors of the “The Bell Curve” were discredited many years ago. One of the authors had a Ph.D. in theoretical psychology and the other was a political science teacher. It could be easily argued, and has been, that neither author is an expert in cognitive processes. However, still it was a good read. I love when people try to guess other’s IQ’s. Jesus is supposed to have a 170 IQ... Does that mean Steven Hawkins is smarter than Jesus is?


    I love these kinds of articles… Thanks BG
    yes steven hawkins is smarter than jesus.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Guy
    I especially took offence to this comment… It just goes to show you how wrong this guy is.
    Taking offense is not grounds for repudiating a comment nor do you adequately explain how that, in turn, shows 'how wrong this guy is'. I don't agree with everything in there, not be a longshot, but, it is tough to deny that education is the most lax of all the academic fields. Among college students, education majors nationwide boast the lowest entering SAT score of any other major. When going on to graduate school, not only do education student perform worse than any other major except for sociology on the GRE, but graduate programs in education - in terms of these standardized test scores, have the lowest standards of admission among graduate schools. Additionally, when education majors sit for the LSAT, their average scores are *below* the national median for all takers and the major itself ranks in the bottom 10% overall of all majors that sit for the LSAT.

    So, at least in America, there's certainly an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that those with degrees in education, though their work is admirable and it's certainly not a worthless degree, have taken what is far and away the easiest route to an advanced degree that there is.
    Last edited by BigGreen; 11-16-2004 at 12:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
    $10 says if this thread were about Kerry having a higher IQ than Bush it would already be 2 pages long..........


    Anyway, I think all of this estimated IQ stuff is garbage. IQ tests themselves aren't that reliable, just like any other type of test. It only tests your knowledge of the material. Someone with a great vocabulary would do well, even if they sucked at math, or vice versa, depending upon how the IQ test was done. Its been a while since I've taken one, I think one said I had a 153 IQ, the other said I had an 95 IQ. So which is right?


    Besides, you can't really debate who is smarter between Bush or Kerry, much less by using *estimated* IQ scores.

    its very evident that kerry is much smarter than bush. an idiot can see that, i did!! hahahahaha spoken from a republican

  10. #10
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    well its an established fact that kerry is smarter than bush, there is no need to argue it. If Bush were smarter he would have pushed that during his campaign instead he used mob mentallity to get re-elected. That original post contains very little facts after the hoax info. Those Bush scores are completely false and can be taken with the same grain as the IQ of states that voted for Bush.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    Those Bush scores are completely false and can be taken with the same grain as the IQ of states that voted for Bush.
    Exactly my point in posting this...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    well its an established fact that kerry is smarter than bush, there is no need to argue it. .
    It is an established *perception*. I have not seen, nor will I see i imagine, a single FACTUAL piece pointing to either Kerry or Bush being smarter than the other. Both were privileged little snots that got into the schools they did because of money and name.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    If Bush were smarter he would have pushed that during his campaign instead he used mob mentallity to get re-elected.
    Much as i enjoy this subforum, what truly, truly scares me is how much people here think they understand about the candidates in reality, or how much they think they comprehend about the way a campaign is run. I have been privy to a number of high level campaigns through internships and policy institutes and I can tell you for sure that some of the smartest people in the country sat in a room for days on end and debated for hours on end just how to 'sell' Bush's intellect and PRECISELY how to mold its perception. Bush could very well be a certifiable genius (i highly doubt it, but for sake of argument), but if his campaign determined that their best strategic bet was to set themselves in opposition to that, come across as an 'everyman', and portray their opponent as an out of touch intellectual, than they would push that image of him not being as intellectual even if the son of a bitch was writing a treatise on the postmodern leanings of Rousseau in a pre-postmodern landscape in between speeches.

    Now, I tend to suspect Kerry is smarter, but your logic in that above quote is as weak as the Dean campaign. If "A" is true, entity x will push issue "A" (which may or may not be effective) at the expense of issue "B" (which may or may not be true but turned out to be effective). It's an affront to both logic AND common sense. He got re-elected - the strategy worked...that was the ONLY goal of the campaign.

    What we all see on that national stage is a deliberately crafted caricature. There is so amazingly little 'true-to-form' remains of their real persona that it's insulting. In one such meeting to which I was privy, there was a two hour debate as to what color tie the candidate would wear, with such incredible detail and research behind it that I almost fell over. They knew how each and every demographic responded to certain color mixings, etc etc. Further, there was a four hour discussion as to how the individual was going to SHAKE HANDS...detailed analysis as to where to turn the head, how to place the feet when turning, etc, etc. While I didn't get to sit on in other, more detailed affairs, I'm told by those who did that this kind of planning was so miniscule compared to the more in depth stuff....day-long meetings simply to determine whether the candidate should pretend NOT to know the answers to certain questions so as to convey a certain demeanor. INTENTIONAL slip-ups that look like a goof but were practiced in a close room over and over again because they would have a desired effect. Big time politics is no more than an extension of Hollywood at this point - with the most effective and efficient script team and actors getting the job done.

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    I think both are smart men....it does take a little brain to get to where they both are...or at the least, the smarts to know how to get there. I've never been one for testing of ones IQ.....really makes no sense to me. I've know plenty of very bright people, ones that could pull facts out of thin air or come up with really smart problem solving skills....then again these same people haven't the least in common sense. Hawkings may know the universe like the back of his hand but can he tell me how to replace a timing chain?

    Intellegence is relative.

    Btw, I took an IQ test once...back when I was 19 I think....scored a 120-130 something..........I still count with my fingers and go ohhh ahhhhh when I see fireworks. hahahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout

    Btw, I took an IQ test once...back when I was 19 I think....scored a 120-130 something..........I still count with my fingers and go ohhh ahhhhh when I see fireworks. hahahahahaha
    That wasn't an IQ test you retard, it was a cholesterol test...you need to work on that ****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    well its an established fact that kerry is smarter than bush, there is no need to argue it. .
    Apparently not smart enough to get elected, I guess......

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    That wasn't an IQ test you retard, it was a cholesterol test...you need to work on that ****.
    And the defence rest your honor. hahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    And the defence rest your honor. hahahahaha
    By the way, due to my team's ****ty performance, I'm using my commish powers to just start taking players I like from other teams. I suggest you preemptively strike if you want to keep up.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    By the way, due to my team's ****ty performance, I'm using my commish powers to just start taking players I like from other teams. I suggest you preemptively strike if you want to keep up.
    Go ahead....I've LM powers and will pick up something when you aren't looking. hahahaha It's been a tough season for most of us....**** that TheChewyOne!

    Now back to our previously recorded thread...IQ's...Who's got them, what do they want for them and how can we get them for ourselves? hahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    Go ahead....I've LM powers and will pick up something when you aren't looking. hahahaha It's been a tough season for most of us....**** that TheChewyOne!

    Now back to our previously recorded thread...IQ's...Who's got them, what do they want for them and how can we get them for ourselves? hahahahaha
    You don't want more IQ. They're finding more and more that a high IQ correlates very highly with depression and other harmful phsychological disorders. That would explain why I haven't showered or left the house in three weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    That wasn't an IQ test you retard, it was a cholesterol test...you need to work on that ****.
    ba hahahahahahaha

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    You don't want more IQ. They're finding more and more that a high IQ correlates very highly with depression and other harmful phsychological disorders. That would explain why I haven't showered or left the house in three weeks.
    Well then this just goes to prove I've the IQ of a quater pounder. I get depressed maybe a handful of days out of the year.....no phsychological (yes I had to look at how you spelled that to get it right) disorders that I'm aware of. Even if I had a high IQ i'd act dumb anyway....no one bothers stupid people or asks for their input.

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    When I had my IQ tested, my shrink told me that the test only looked at 8 of several hundred aspects of intelligence.
    IQ tests don't check for creativity, musical or athletic ability, various types of insight, or other stuff. The one I took (Weschler) checked memory, general knowledge, and something about social interaction, math, and a couple other things. It provides a means to compare a small part of your brain's functioning with a small part of other people's functioning; about as reliable as a 30 year old Chevy Vega (good if it's working right) in its results. But there's no way that evaluating and comparing that small a sampling of people's overall intellect can be a reliable tool for ranking who's higher on the scale of smartness . . .

    JMHO,
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    When I had my IQ tested, my shrink told me that the test only looked at 8 of several hundred aspects of intelligence.
    IQ tests don't check for creativity, musical or athletic ability, various types of insight, or other stuff. The one I took (Weschler) checked memory, general knowledge, and something about social interaction, math, and a couple other things. It provides a means to compare a small part of your brain's functioning with a small part of other people's functioning; about as reliable as a 30 year old Chevy Vega (good if it's working right) in its results. But there's no way that evaluating and comparing that small a sampling of people's overall intellect can be a reliable tool for ranking who's higher on the scale of smartness . . .

    JMHO,
    -Tock
    This sounds pretty smart too me...someone dumb it down a bit and tell me what Tock said. hahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    well its an established fact that kerry is smarter than bush, there is no need to argue it.
    Really? where has that fact been established?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    This sounds pretty smart too me...someone dumb it down a bit and tell me what Tock said. hahahahaha
    He said you suck

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    He said you suck
    I thought so....just checking. hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    This sounds pretty smart too me...someone dumb it down a bit and tell me what Tock said. hahahahaha


    Never hit your mother with a shovel,
    If you ever do, then you will find
    That when you hit your mother with a shovel
    You leave a dull impression on her mind.


    Just take this advice, and you'll be just fine . . .
    -Tock

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Never hit your mother with a shovel,
    If you ever do, then you will find
    That when you hit your mother with a shovel
    You leave a dull impression on her mind.


    Just take this advice, and you'll be just fine . . .
    -Tock
    Perfect! Now if you could help me out with the difference between **** and shinola I'd be set. hahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    Perfect! Now if you could help me out with the difference between **** and shinola I'd be set. hahahahaha


    I once knew a guy who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. I made it a point never to play golf with him.

    But if you don't know XXXX from shinola, I'll make it a point never to let you polish my shoes . . .

    It's always something . . .

    -Tock

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    I once knew a guy who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. I made it a point never to play golf with him.

    But if you don't know XXXX from shinola, I'll make it a point never to let you polish my shoes . . .

    It's always something . . .

    -Tock
    hahahaha. Well, let the other guy do the shoes for you and I'll cover for him on golf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    Perfect! Now if you could help me out with the difference between **** and shinola I'd be set. hahahahaha

    SHINOLA

    Shoe polish.

    No longer manufactured.

    Comes in a can.

    Pleasant, fruity odor

    People don't care if you have Shinola on your shoes
    Most people admire shiny shoes.

    Contributed to the end of the Cold War

    Repels aliens.

    If you hold a piece of Shinola in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" you will be transported to a magical paradise where all the boys look like Weezer and cream cheese has no calories.

    Emily Dickinson wrote poems glorifying Shinola.

    ****

    Bodily waste.

    Manufactured by every animal on earth at least once a day.

    Doesn't come in a can but you can put it there.

    Unpleasant, poop-like odor

    People are offended and make funny faces when you have **** on your shoes.

    Helped spread the Black Plague

    Repels aliens.

    If you hold a piece of **** in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" your hand will get dirty.

    Jonathan Swift wrote poems glorifying ****.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    SHINOLA

    Shoe polish.

    No longer manufactured.

    Comes in a can.

    Pleasant, fruity odor

    People don't care if you have Shinola on your shoes
    Most people admire shiny shoes.

    Contributed to the end of the Cold War

    Repels aliens.

    If you hold a piece of Shinola in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" you will be transported to a magical paradise where all the boys look like Weezer and cream cheese has no calories.

    Emily Dickinson wrote poems glorifying Shinola.

    ****

    Bodily waste.

    Manufactured by every animal on earth at least once a day.

    Doesn't come in a can but you can put it there.

    Unpleasant, poop-like odor

    People are offended and make funny faces when you have **** on your shoes.

    Helped spread the Black Plague

    Repels aliens.

    If you hold a piece of **** in your hand and turn around four times chanting, "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!" your hand will get dirty.

    Jonathan Swift wrote poems glorifying ****.
    Could be me but this sounds a lot like a bunch of shinola. hahahahaha

  33. #33
    Swellin Guest
    This is one of the best threads I have read in some time. I refrain from comment on most things political, but I had to follow BG in here and see what he had to say.
    This was certainly entertaining!

    BG, I enjoyed your rebuttals concerning the article.

    Tock, awesome description! I took the same silly test a couple of months ago for the FAA...seems they have a problem with me taking amphetamines for ADHD, so I couldn't take them and then I had to sit through 5 hours of testing...including a memory test and an IQ test...then the ADHD test. The guy laughed when he saw the results of the ADHD test...he effectively said I was in trouble.

    Juggy...you retard. Always fun to see you stuck between intelligent people like BG and Tock.

  34. #34
    Juggernaut's Avatar
    Juggernaut is offline AR Jester
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swellin
    Juggy...you retard. Always fun to see you stuck between intelligent people like BG and Tock.
    I'm the Ying to everyones Yang.....at least I do serve a purpose, I make others feel better about themselves. hahahaha

  35. #35
    Bigen12's Avatar
    Bigen12 is offline AR-Hall of Famer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy Snout
    I'm the Ying to everyones Yang.....at least I do serve a purpose, I make others feel better about themselves. hahahaha

    D@mn it,

    All of this time, I had been thinking that you were the Ying that likes Wang......

    I am so confused......

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