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# Thread: a challenge for the atheists of this board"

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## a challenge for the atheists of this board"

Laws of cause and effect and logic
1 Every cause has an effect and vice versa
2 First cause is the creator of all the effects
3 Logic: A=A, B=B , A+B can = C , A cannot = B or C

Athiests statment
The universe is the first cause

Theists statment
God is the first cause

Athiest statement
Universe is eternal , Universe came out of nothing

Theists statment
God Created The Universe

Athiests = Universe is the first Cause (first cause doesnt need a creator,it wouldnt be the first cause ie Universe doesnt need a creator)
Theists = God is the first Cause(first cause doesnt need a creator,it wouldnt be the first cause ie God doesnt need a creator)

Universe (being the first cause ) does not have any effects (every cause has an effect) therfore universe is an effect not a first cuase and using the laws of logic A(being the first cause ) cannot = B (being the effect)
The universe being a first cause and it also being an effect is illogical [A(being the first cause) cannot = B(being the Effect)] its either the first cause or the effect not both.

God is the first cause and the universe is the effect
Logic A(god)+B(his intention)=C(effect, the universe)
Universe being an effect must have a first cause(Law 2 Every cause has an effect & vice versa)
The univers' first cause is God.
this a challenge to any knowledgeable athiest to discuss this statement.

2. Originally Posted by Militia
Laws of cause and effect and logic :

God is the first cause and the universe is the effect
Logic A(god)+B(his intention)=C(effect, the universe)
Universe being an effect must have a first cause(Law 2 Every cause has an effect & vice versa)
The univers' first cause is God.
this a challenge to any knowledgeable athiest to discuss this statement.

In math class did you ever have those story problems that were talking about the 2 trains leaving from each station at x miles per hr and where they would meet at; considering the bird left the nest early because a retired vetren, decided to wake up early and trim the hedges that were blocking the view of the mountains, for the young neightbors' baby to look at as he woke up?

Whats with all the a,b,c crap?

The universe as an effect, couldn't create anything under it own power because it's an after EFFECT of something else... This isn't the "BUTTERFLY EFFECT." When I piss in the toliet it isnt directly raining on mars because of it.

As for the cause, I dont think there was some guy dressed in white thinking that it would be "cool" to create a world like the "sims". If God is a "cause" what was his purpose? Who created him? Did he complete his cause?

my .02

3. Im not religious, but Im not exactly an athiest either. Why cannot A= b or c? Are these your rules? And I dont understand what you mean by the universe doesnt have any effects? can you clarify that?

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yes this post have a little math/logic in it but u have to build your defense against what is in the thread not about what u think in general the thread is very clear i discuss it yesterda in the univ with some friends and i find it very logical

5. Originally Posted by Militia
yes this post have a little math/logic in it but u have to build your defense against what is in the thread not about what u think in general the thread is very clear i discuss it yesterda in the univ with some friends and i find it very logical
is that u in your avatar militia ?

6. tell me why a cannot equal b or c

7. The A=b=c is just cluttering information... It doesnt belong in the statements... I think that the universe couldnt have effects or causes if it is an effect itself... hence the toliet and mars raining conclusion.

8. Originally Posted by symatech
tell me why a cannot equal b or c
- I'm not telling anyone anything, yet providing my thoughts, about the statements...

-Syn

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Originally Posted by symatech
Im not religious, but Im not exactly an athiest either. Why cannot A= b or c? Are these your rules? And I dont understand what you mean by the universe doesnt have any effects? can you clarify that?
tell me what r the effect of the universe NOTHING we are inside the universe and we constitue one package called universe and because universe has no effect so its not a cause therefor the only thing left is universe is an effect
so starting from universe is ana effect and we have above that universe =cause so we have universe=cause=effect and thats illogical

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Originally Posted by zoaib
is that u in your avatar militia ?
no man its my relative the martyr salah ghandour he did a big martydrom operation against israelis in 1995 if u want to c the video mpg of the operation tell me in pvt

11. Originally Posted by Militia
3 Logic: A=A, B=B , A+B can = C , A cannot = B or C
If B=0 and A+B=C, then not only can A = C, but it must. I ceased reading after that.

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symatec - the concept is something to the effect that you cannot be your own father - if you accept that for everything that exists there is a cause then the a b c is just a mathmatical representation of his question

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those A,B,C are rules my friends the analysis is based on those rules , like its a problem and those are the given rules

14. Originally Posted by Militia
those A,B,C are rules my friends the analysis is based on those rules, like its a problem and those are the given rules
EDIT: ahhh, understood. Though, that being said, you can't artificially introduce rules such that they favor your desired outcome. If so, here's my set of "rules":

All deities are eggplants
Anything that is an eggplant does not exist
Therefore, all deities do not existent

I mean, it's absurd and it's asinine, but it's imposing a set of ARTIFICIAL constraints on a problem to achieve a desired result. IF your logical A, B, C premise held absolute truth, you could employ it as part of a logical premise, but you can not fabricate a premise from thin air. As your premise has been shown untrue in at least one regard (i'm sure we could think of several others quite quickly), it can NOT be universal and can not, in turn, be applied to an argument as universal.
Last edited by BigGreen; 11-17-2004 at 04:40 PM.

15. ok, well then how about this. To continue we must really define 'the universe' because our understanding of it is laughable. You could say that the universe is simply the vacant area in which all these molecules and atoms will be. So the universe is the cause, and th e planets stars, etc are all the effects. Or the universe is the cause, and people appear as an effect when they are on a suitable place and time.

To say that God created something is just saying that we dont know how it was created. People -long ago- placed the label God based on their lack of knowledge. So to say that God created it could be right, or very wrong.

most scientists will tell you that the big bang created the universe, well thats all fine a good, but where did all this energy originate from? Some will then tell you that collapsing parrallel universes provided the matter and energy, but where did they come from? This could be traced all the way back to the beginning. For all we really know, we are tiny ants compared to some humongous breed of giants and our universe is just their science project. Hell, you dont know, I dont know, but that doesnt mean that they are 'god.'

What we must realize is that religion and god are based on unknowns. People want to believe in them, probably because people want to believe their is heaven and hell. But nobody knows.

Basically, our universe could be the cause of existance, and we are the result.

edit: in short, I believe your argument is severly flawed
Last edited by symatech; 11-17-2004 at 04:47 PM.

16. Who created God?

17. don't take offense to this, but is english is a second language for you?

i think i see your point but you aren't communicating it very clearly.

the a + b= c logic is flawed in this case, because they are your theories, and you made the formula to justifiy it. an atheist can just as easliy take that formula to "prove" their theories, or any rediculous statement as long as it follows the formula.

18. Originally Posted by Imperialist
Who created God?
You SOB you got there first I was reading through the posts thinking ok no one said it this reply is gonna be great I get to the end and there it is what I wanted to say.

Im gonna say it anyway....

WHO CREATED GOD?

Originally Posted by Militia
1 Every cause has an effect and vice versa
Oh, I dont believe this either I do many things without consequences... or at least without any I can see/understand
Last edited by Angelis; 11-17-2004 at 05:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by Imperialist
Who created God?
the same way the big bang theroy could have created earth and man it could have also created god.

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God's mother was pro-life. There is an entire civilization of gods living in another galaxy. They each get to create being that will serve them.

You got to have faith. This is not thermodynamics.

ps. I'm deffinetly not atheist.

21. Originally Posted by physio_sport
the same way the big bang theroy could have created earth and man it could have also created god.
Who created the conditions for the big bang.... this could go on forever and ever!

22. Originally Posted by Militia
we are inside the universe and we constitue one package called universe

Sounds silly, to me.

If we are inside anything, then that implies that there is an outside. So, whatever is outside the universe you are talking about, is not another universe, it's part of the universe.

Another little trick with logic that I find humorous:

If Satan is the Father of All Evil, and
If God created Satan, then
God is the Grandfather of All Evil.

The problem with the above is simple, and should be obvious to one and all: I am speaking of fictitious characters, and may as well be musing over the effects Batman or Superman have on the criminal justice system. So you could work up a dither over such treacherous blasphemy, or you could do something constructive like shine your shoes.

-Tock

23. Originally Posted by BigGreen
EDIT: ahhh, understood. Though, that being said, you can't artificially introduce rules such that they favor your desired outcome. If so, here's my set of "rules":

All deities are eggplants
Anything that is an eggplant does not exist
Therefore, all deities do not existent

I mean, it's absurd and it's asinine, but it's imposing a set of ARTIFICIAL constraints on a problem to achieve a desired result. IF your logical A, B, C premise held absolute truth, you could employ it as part of a logical premise, but you can not fabricate a premise from thin air. As your premise has been shown untrue in at least one regard (i'm sure we could think of several others quite quickly), it can NOT be universal and can not, in turn, be applied to an argument as universal.
Great point this game does not make sense, i think you may have left some stuff out

24. the big bang is the first cause. the universe is the effect. There you have a solution without a god in the picture that obey your "laws of logic".

If the first cause doesnt need a creator then I can just aswell say that the big bang is the first cause then to say that a god waved a magic wand and created the universe.

25. [112:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.

[112:2] "The Absolute GOD.

[112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

[112:4] "None equals Him."

26. Originally Posted by BigGreen
If B=0 and A+B=C, then not only can A = C, but it must. I ceased reading after that.
from what i understand , and being a microbiology/environmental engineer and getting my masters in industrial engineering i see that

A ( is a product)
B (is a product)
c( product)

hence A + B = C ............ where A cannot equal C since it had to be added to B to get C ......... u can say C= A + B .......... and even B doesnt equal C by itself ..................

27. [1:1] I thinking of writing a religion and am looking for some community inputs as to whats acceptable... ie simple things like thou shall not kill, have already be taken. For the simple reason that I like to be admired and what the hell I dont feel like working. For a small some of money you can go to Heaven(2) and enjoy everlasting freedom and bla bla see heaven(1) for details.

28. Originally Posted by Angelis
Who created the conditions for the big bang.... this could go on forever and ever!
its pretty simple logic , even if we look at evolution theory the start was from unicellular organisism RIGHT ? and what are these UNIcells ...... they are sinlge protien based cells , and how were these protien formed , form amino acids ........... and to this day u cannot take an amino acid and keep starring it to form itself into protien and then become a living organisim , hence maybe i got a clear head n i see it very clealry that this whole SYSTEM , the UNIVERSE itself the complexity behind this is a proof of a HIGHER BEING of far greater knowledge than us , cause this whole universe is in balance , whereas everythign man has ever created has never had balance ! its perfection , that we see all around us ................... problem is GOD made form the most tiniest to the maximus of beings to show his ingeniosity to US , and we think otherwise ............. the meaning of science itself is , the knowledge of our environment and surroundings , and whatever we have learned and built we didnt create it out of nothign everythign was there to begin with , so i just think its really stupidity on someone behalf if they are daft enough to not see all of this n , say JEE ?? i wonder !!!!!! nahhh couldnt be GOD he is just a man made myth !

29. Bismillah hir rahman nir raheem
lam ya lidd wa lam u ladd
Walam ya kullah o kofowan ahad

Originally Posted by RockSolid
[112:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.

[112:2] "The Absolute GOD.

[112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

[112:4] "None equals Him."

30. So because we have discovered technology from nothing, we are to thank GOD or whomever? Do you think simple animals as ant or dogs revere us as gods seeing all that we have. Thats what you your speech concludes to me

31. how can i add a picture to my signature , or how do i creat a signature which can show at the bottom of my posts , plz help , i totally forgot how to do it ??????? and sorry for hijacking this thread

32. click on User CP on the top of the screen in the blue bar and go to profile

33. Originally Posted by Syndicate
So because we have discovered technology from nothing, we are to thank GOD or whomever? Do you think simple animals as ant or dogs revere us as gods seeing all that we have. Thats what you your speech concludes to me
according to my beliefs and not saying this scientifically All lower forms of animals know who their creator is , only man who was given the power to choose conflicts with his creator , hence they wont be responsible for what they do and we will be since we can choose and they go by instinct , lets forget this for a sec tell me

why is that we JUST die at the end , i mean u me anyone is gonna die right ? or not , if we are so superior in technology why havent we become immortals yet , the basic structure of our bodies degrade over time , it breaks down through out your life and becomes old , this tells me soemthing about TIME itself that we are using up time , time which is given to us not to just **** like monkeys but to avail n to prove to the creator that we are not mere ****heads ........... the imprefections of man created systems and the battle between GOOD n EVIL in itself hold a deep concept of a final judgement , and if there is a final judgement then there will be a jUDGE TO DO THAT TOO !

34. Originally Posted by Syndicate
click on User CP on the top of the screen in the blue bar and go to profile
there is no option to edit my signature or to create one ?????

correct

35. Originally Posted by RockSolid
[112:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.

[112:2] "The Absolute GOD.

[112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

[112:4] "None equals Him."

. . . and exactly how do you know this to be true?
-Tock

36. Originally Posted by ZOAIB
and if there is a final judgement then there will be a jUDGE TO DO THAT TOO !

. . . and if there is NOT a final judgement, then there won't be a judge.
-Tock

37. Originally Posted by Tock
. . . and exactly how do you know this to be true?
-Tock
by faith n a little logic ........... if i were to be god , with immense power first i will never have an equal to me (1st point) , if i were god and i gave a procreation capability for my creations i wouldnt make myself to that level to be compared to a creation created by me , so i wont beget (2nd point) if i were to be God i would be the absolute otherwise its no use really (3rd point) ............ but if u ask howcome u dont think he is begotten or created by something or someone ? the logic behind this to my understanding is the 3 semetic religions and the only widely practiced religion in the world , teach monotheism ( supplication to one god ) although there is trinity in christianity but their base is also ONE god , that 3 is ONE ............. and this message has been traced back to be true even in the time of Abraham historically through scriptures .............. if there was SOMEONE who created GOD would he just sit aside and watch this GOD play around and not make known his existence ????? or if this God had a mom n DAD wouldnt they make themselves known to these creatures of his , and tell them this GOD is lying to U about being the absolute , so why is it that we only here ONE GOD ONE GOD in these semetic religions ............ there has to be some truth to it , u got 80% of the world population beleiveing that !

38. Originally Posted by ZOAIB
there has to be some truth to it , u got 80% of the world population beleiveing that !
This hurts even more as it follows a mini-treatise on logic, but at one point more than 80% of various populations have believed the following:

that the world was flat
that illness was caused by magical curses
that the sun revolved around the earth
that certain dances would produce rain

and so on and so on ad nauseum. Absolute truth, whether that be that there is a god, 34831 gods, or no god whatsoever, is not dependent upon the percentage of people who believe it, whether it be 100 or .0001 percent.

39. Originally Posted by Angelis
Im gonna say it anyway....

WHO CREATED GOD?
The dude who wrote the book...

Red

40. Originally Posted by Syndicate
[1:1] I thinking of writing a religion and am looking for some community inputs as to whats acceptable... ie simple things like thou shall not kill, have already be taken. For the simple reason that I like to be admired and what the hell I dont feel like working. For a small some of money you can go to Heaven(2) and enjoy everlasting freedom and bla bla see heaven(1) for details.

A science fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard invented a religion (Scientology) in the 1950's, and it's primarily concerned with other matters, like space wars in bygone eons, and "Thetans" and getting engrams out of "pre-clears" and stuff like that. It's a curious little scam, but no more bizarre than Christianity or Islam.
Here's some anti-Scientology info: http://www.xenu.com/
You can find the Scientology website for yourself, I'm sure.

But if you're looking for a template for starting your own religion, pretty much all you need to do is have a Divine Revelation of some sort (the more absurd the better), assert that people who don't subscribe to your Revelations are lost, and require people to pay to belong to your tribe. Oh ya, you gotta have some ceremony to "purify" people in some way. People like to feel "purified" from something, be it sin or engrams or nasty looking people.
Wrap all that up in a system of coherent logic, and provide a big payoff for the faithful (usually given at death), and people will be attracted to it like moths to a flame. Oh ya, one more thing . . . the head honcho of the religion needs to be kept away from the rank and file--that enhances the image of the leader, and keeps real people from seeing that they scratch their nuts just like anyone else.
--Tock

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