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  1. #1
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Atheists must belive the Odds are on their side - Pascals View

    Ok Pascal who is the father of probability, was a devout Catholic. Thorough his probablity he stated it is safer to belive in GOD, than to not belive in GOD.

    I tried to look for the best chart of Pascals theory, but this was the best I found, not what I wanted.



    Basically to sum it up, if you belive in GOD and GOD exists, you have infinite bliss. If you belive in GOD and GOD doesnt exist, there is a 0 effect.

    But if you dont belive in GOD and God exists,you have infinite damanation, or hell. And if you dont belive in GOD and GOD doesnt exist, there is another 0 effect.

    I know what arguments people will say on this, so I will wait and let them pose it before I respond.

  2. #2
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    Please look in the chart on this link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

    So even thorough probabilty it is better to belive in GOD, than not to.

    Given the values that Pascal proposes, the option of believing in God (B) dominates the option of not believing in God (~B). In other words, the value gained by choosing B is always greater than or equal to that of choosing ~B.

    Pascal assigned equal probability to each of the two possibilities. He argued that "reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other," due to our ignorance. Later writers have pointed out that the probabilities make no difference to the argument, since any non-zero chance multiplied by infinity yields an infinite expected value.


    It states that if you were to analyse your options in regard to belief in Pascal's God carefully (or belief in any other religious system with a similar reward and punishment scheme), you would come out with the following possibilities:

    - You may believe in God, and God exists, in which case you go to heaven.

    - You may believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which case you gain nothing.

    - You may not believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which you gain nothing again.

    - You may not believe in God, and God may exist, in which case you will be punished.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

  3. #3
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    I don't believe in GOD but I think I will do one of those death bed repent just in case.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwithin
    I don't believe in GOD but I think I will do one of those death bed repent just in case.
    sounds like some doubt, what if you don't have the luxuary of dying on your death bed?

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    People dont decide wether or not to believe in god based on a table of probability on what is the best possible outcome. Its an emotional decision, not a logical one. I bet Pascal, if he believed in God, did not do this because it was a safe route or because his little odds table showed him so. You can't logical implement those types of emotions.

    Picture that table with 2 chicks. 1 fat one that is filthy rich and smart(we'll call her Oprah, or Roseanne), and the other one you just love, cause she is fun, and cute, and young, and fit, and you just have chemistry with her, and then some...............who would go for the fat one?.......you know she makes more sense, from an economical, best for your kids, getting ahead point of view, but we will almost always go with our emotions. And if you pick the fat one, and you are morally that rotten, when you are f*****ng the fat one you will dream about the cute one. You cant force emotions through a table of probability.

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    faith is emotional, not logical...BUt nothing wrong with believing in your emotions.

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    I personally am a firm beliver in GOD, not based on probablity but intense faith and trust in GOD.

    But atheists say I dont see GOD, so he must not exist. GOD is infinitly beyond our comprehension, since, being indivisible and without limits, he bears no realtion to us. Reason cannot answer the question. Reason cannot make you choose if he exists or not, reason cannot prove either wrong. It is the heart which percieves GOD and not the reason. That is what faith is: God percieved by the heart, not by reason.

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    I try to stay away from religious debate but Tock will blow this theory out of the water. I've seen him do it, he would have convinced me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialist
    I try to stay away from religious debate but Tock will blow this theory out of the water. I've seen him do it, he would have convinced me.
    I probably know what he will say. Let him ask it first.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Ya, this is the classic "Pascal's Wager." Pascal was a pretty good scientist, but not a very good theologian.
    He reasoned, "If I beleive and I'm wrong, then I've lost nothing. If you don't beleive and are wrong, then you've lost everything."

    There's a few problems with this.
    The first is, Which God should you beleive in? There are plenty to choose from, and suppose you pick God X and God Y is the true one, and has a worse afterlife than God X? In that case, you could hedge your bet and worship every god.
    But, would the True God be so dumb as to not realize you were not sincere, but just beleiving as a matter of convenience?

    On the other hand, if there are no gods, the beleiver has lost something. You've spent a lot of time going to church instead of sleeping late, paying tithes, praying, reading the Bible when you could have been working your abs, boring the h e l l out of people who didn't really want to hear about Jesus.
    And the unbeliever would have had lived the only life he would ever get according to the best information and principles he knew, and would have Lived His Own Life His Own Way, instead of living his life the way other people told him to.

    IMHO, It is better to live your life as if there are no gods, and do nice things for your friends and loved ones. If there are no gods, you would have lost nothing, and your bereaved relatives will remember you fondly. If there is a loving deity after all, you will be known to it as a good person who did lots of nice things, and not just whether or not you professed "belief" that he existed.

    One other thing . . . Any deity that would choose to sentence an honest unbeleiver who nevertheless took care of sick neighbors, gave $$ to homeless people, paid his taxes, served in the local volunteer fire department and saved a few lives, loved generously and honestly,
    to a thousand million endless eternities writhing in senseless pain and anguish, I would say that that deity was more loathesome than any pus-laden turd that ever drooled out the ass of the vilest sadistic (expletive deleted), and is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
    Yah, to send a good person to the sort of punishment described in the Bible is unjustified. "An eye for and eye" is one thing . . . but Neverending Torment for harboring an honest doubt?

    Nah, the whole "Pascal's Wager" thing is just a tactic to scare naive people who don't know any better into following the lead of some big organized religion, where they can be milked of their money and told how to behave.
    I'm lucky I extricated myself from that BS . . . and I'm here to tell you that you can free yourself of all those superstitions, too. Won't be easy, but it can be done. All you have to do is decide to think and live for yourself.

  11. #11
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    Gee, I couldn't have said it better myself . . .
    -Tock

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    The negative...what if the "GOD" everyone believes in is the wrong one. You follow this example and believe anyway out of fear...in the end you are wrong and you suffer eternal ****ation.

    Big Negative!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I personally am a firm beliver in GOD, not based on probablity but intense faith and trust in GOD.
    That's all well and good, and if I had a rat's ass I'd give ya one, but I don't, so I don't give a rat's ass what you beleive in or don't. But keep in mind, that lots of people have gotten burned by relying on "faith" (look at those folks who get ripped off by TV preachers and psychics and salesmen who "looked so nice"). If that's the way you want to live, fine.




    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    But atheists say I dont see GOD, so he must not exist.
    Not quite.

    Atheists say, "I don't see any gods or goddesses, there is no evidence they exist, there is no evidence of souls or afterlives or magic, so since there is no REASON to beleive, I do not beleive in such things."

    Surely, if you have a persuasive REASON to suppose there is only one god instead of a pantheon of gods and goddesses, you could share it with us. Atheists are REASONABLE people, and would welcome whatever REASONABLE evidence you have to support your notion. If you have none, then we can only conclude that your opinion is baseless, and is nothing more than the sort of "faith" that sets people up to be ripped off.




    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    GOD is infinitly beyond our comprehension, since, being indivisible and without limits, he bears no realtion to us.
    Yet, Christians and Jews and Muslims claim to understand enough to dispute other people's faith in a plurality of deities. Christians claim that this infinitely inscrutable god hates people who work on Sunday or have pictures of people or animals. They base this claim on a book that says a 900 year old man built a boat 2 acres in size and kept 7 of every creature--including dinosaurs--on it for 14 months, and gave them food and water and shoveled all their sh,, for that time; and that a man who rose from the dead floated up into the stratosphere and did not die again from lack of oxygen.
    If doctors relied on that kind of information to perform surgery, how many of their patients do you suppose would survive?




    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Reason cannot answer the question. Reason cannot make you choose if he exists or not, reason cannot prove either wrong. It is the heart which percieves GOD and not the reason. That is what faith is: God percieved by the heart, not by reason.
    Sounds like SUPERSTITION to me.
    May as well champion the cause of Voodoo or Scientology or TV preachers. You'd be better off gambling . . . at least there, you stand a small chance of getting some of your $$$ back. Religion is nothing but a bottomless money-pit, where the vipers at the bottom make the rules for everyone else and live in luxury and comfort.

    You keep speaking of "GOD" as if there is only one, and that this "God" is male--complete with uncircumsized penis, balls, and a need to shave. I'm gonna assume you have no reason to suppose that there is only one, and I'm gonna assume you have no reason to suppose that there are seven gods, and all of them are FEMALE with huge lactating tits and tight vaginas where all good heterosexual men go when they die. After all, you can't prove I'm wrong; so anyone who has faith in the existance in 7 goddesses has every chance of being "right" as you do.

    Ok, enough of that . . . mix me up a protein shake and give me a pickle. Dill.

    --Tock
    Last edited by Tock; 11-19-2004 at 12:47 AM.

  14. #14
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    There's a few problems with this.
    The first is, Which God should you beleive in? There are plenty to choose from, and suppose you pick God X and God Y is the true one, and has a worse afterlife than God X? In that case, you could hedge your bet and worship every god.
    But, would the True God be so dumb as to not realize you were not sincere, but just beleiving as a matter of convenience?
    The theory still holds. It is better to belive in GOD X, than no GOD. Even with this the probabilty is better in belive in GOD X, than no GOD, at all.

    On the other hand, if there are no gods, the beleiver has lost something. You've spent a lot of time going to church instead of sleeping late, paying tithes, praying, reading the Bible when you could have been working your abs, boring the h e l l out of people who didn't really want to hear about Jesus.
    And the unbeliever would have had lived the only life he would ever get according to the best information and principles he knew, and would have Lived His Own Life His Own Way, instead of living his life the way other people told him to.
    Belief is not a "waste" of time, there have been studies done, that the concept of prayer, and truly beliveing in a GOD, is better for a person in a personal, emotional, and mental level. Not to mention brotherhood, community, and other concepts that go along with a certain belief in GOD. If it wasnt for this "concept" America would have not have been founded.

    One other thing . . . Any deity that would choose to sentence an honest unbeleiver who nevertheless took care of sick neighbors, gave $$ to homeless people, paid his taxes, served in the local volunteer fire department and saved a few lives, loved generously and honestly,
    to a thousand million endless eternities writhing in senseless pain and anguish, I would say that that deity was more loathesome than any pus-laden turd that ever drooled out the ass of the vilest sadistic (expletive deleted), and is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
    Yah, to send a good person to the sort of punishment described in the Bible is unjustified. "An eye for and eye" is one thing . . . but Neverending Torment for harboring an honest doubt?
    You are assuming "common sense" from a human point of view. Its common sense for a person that does good will be rewarded. That is not true in our present life, so why would it be true in the next.

    Life isnt fair.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    That's all well and good, and if I had a rat's ass I'd give ya one, but I don't, so I don't give a rat's ass what you beleive in or don't. But keep in mind, that lots of people have gotten burned by relying on "faith" (look at those folks who get ripped off by TV preachers and psychics and salesmen who "looked so nice"). If that's the way you want to live, fine.
    That statement was my opinion. Like you choosing to be an atheist. I choose to belive in GOD.

    Atheists say, "I don't see any gods or goddesses, there is no evidence they exist, there is no evidence of souls or afterlives or magic, so since there is no REASON to beleive, I do not beleive in such things."

    Surely, if you have a persuasive REASON to suppose there is only one god instead of a pantheon of gods and goddesses, you could share it with us. Atheists are REASONABLE people, and would welcome whatever REASONABLE evidence you have to support your notion. If you have none, then we can only conclude that your opinion is baseless, and is nothing more than the sort of "faith" that sets people up to be ripped off.
    But atheists cannot prove that GOD doesnt exist either. Can an atheist see another galaxy? Does that mean it doesnt exist? I am wondering if you (TOCK) are a skeptic, like the Philosopher Berkely, that said, an object does not exist if we dont percieve it. Do you TOCK belive a tree that falls makes a sound, if no one is there to hear it?

    You obviously didnt hear it does that mean it didnt happen. You might say that is a bad analogy.

    About evidence. There used to be a time where it was said "MAN COULDNT FLY", there were skeptics, who said that was impossible. But there were people that belived that this objective can be achieved. If they kept beliving with the "facts" of present day, there would be no flight. People belived that flight was possible. And now we have planes breaking the sound barrier.


    Yet, Christians and Jews and Muslims claim to understand enough to dispute other people's faith in a plurality of deities. Christians claim that this infinitely inscrutable god hates people who work on Sunday or have pictures of people or animals. They base this claim on a book that says a 900 year old man built a boat 2 acres in size and kept 7 of every creature--including dinosaurs--on it for 14 months, and gave them food and water and shoveled all their sh,, for that time; and that a man who rose from the dead floated up into the stratosphere and did not die again from lack of oxygen.
    What do you belive, we are products of nothing? We are a mistake? We come from nothing? We are created of nothing? I am not being sacarstic, I really want to know your view.

    You keep speaking of "GOD" as if there is only one, and that this "God" is male--complete with uncircumsized penis, balls, and a need to shave. I'm gonna assume you have no reason to suppose that there is only one, and I'm gonna assume you have no reason to suppose that there are seven gods, and all of them are FEMALE with huge lactating tits and tight vaginas where all good heterosexual men go when they die. After all, you can't prove I'm wrong; so anyone who has faith in the existance in 7 goddesses has every chance of being "right" as you do.
    That is a fault of humans. We falsely give GOD anthropomorphic (giving GOD humans characteristics) characteristics. That is wrong, we shouldnt give GOD human characteristics. GOD is something greater than that, he could be anything. He could be the universe itself, the millions of galaxies combined. Humans are to be blamed for this, we need to stop giving GOD human characteristics.

    There is a good report on this by Deborah Matheiu who is a philosopher, the report/study is called "Male-Chauvinist Religion".

    Where she states how the three major religions - Islam/Christianity/Judaism is male oriented. We call GOD male terms like KING, FATHER, SON etc. But we are doing this falsely, we are attributing Human creatures to an all powerful all might GOD.

    I wrote this at 3:44am, so if I dont make sense. Forgive me GOD.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 11-19-2004 at 02:46 AM.

  16. #16
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    There's a few problems with this.
    The first is, Which God should you beleive in? There are plenty to choose from, and suppose you pick God X and God Y is the true one, and has a worse afterlife than God X? In that case, you could hedge your bet and worship every god.
    But, would the True God be so dumb as to not realize you were not sincere, but just beleiving as a matter of convenience?


    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    The theory still holds. It is better to belive in GOD X, than no GOD. Even with this the probabilty is better in belive in GOD X, than no GOD, at all.

    Not really.

    You have the choice to beleive in:
    1) one out of many possible gods
    2) some out of many possible gods
    3) all gods
    4) no gods at all

    If there are a millions gods (or more), then choice (1) leaves you with a 1 millionth of a chance of picking the right one; chances are pretty good you're gonna be wrong.
    You can better your chances with choice (2), but with (3) you'll cover all your bases, make all of 'em happy.
    The only problem with that is, that if there really is only one god, and she doesn't like you flirting with all the other gods that don't even exist, then you are screwed. But then, if there is only one god, then why would it get pissed if you flirted with other gods that weren't around? But in the 10 commandments, it says, "You shall have no other gods before me," so that right there tells ya that according to the Bible, there are other gods. Is the god of the Bible more powerful than the other gods? Well, look at where the Bible's god put the Jews--on the only property in the middle east without oil. I'm guessing that the other gods fought Jehovah to save the good spots for the Arabs. So . . . you might want to beleive in the Zoroastrian gods, if they can kick Jehovah's ass like that . . .

    But all this theorizing over what different gods can kick what other god's ass is silliness, primarily because it's nothing but supposition and make-beleive. Since there's no evidence to support the nonsense of a god or gods or goddesses, and there's lots of evidence to support the notion that people who preach about gods and goddesses are crackpots, you may as well pick the last choice (4), beleive in no gods or goddesses. It's the only rational option.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    What do you belive, we are products of nothing? We are a mistake? We come from nothing? We are created of nothing? I am not being sacarstic, I really want to know your view.

    Here is my view.

    Where did we all come from? No one really knows.
    No need to make things up, though, as mystics and theologians do.
    Some people don't like uncertainty, so they make stuff up . . . and that's where religion comes from. Different groups of people make up different creation stories. That's all there is to it . . . nobody really knows how the universe started. But who really cares? You have food in the fridge and money in your wallet, a wench in the sack, you're set. If you need more money, just start up your own church, take up collections, you'll be just fine.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Not really.

    You have the choice to beleive in:
    1) one out of many possible gods
    2) some out of many possible gods
    3) all gods
    4) no gods at all

    If there are a millions gods (or more), then choice (1) leaves you with a 1 millionth of a chance of picking the right one; chances are pretty good you're gonna be wrong.
    You can better your chances with choice (2), but with (3) you'll cover all your bases, make all of 'em happy.
    The only problem with that is, that if there really is only one god, and she doesn't like you flirting with all the other gods that don't even exist, then you are screwed. But then, if there is only one god, then why would it get pissed if you flirted with other gods that weren't around? But in the 10 commandments, it says, "You shall have no other gods before me," so that right there tells ya that according to the Bible, there are other gods. Is the god of the Bible more powerful than the other gods? Well, look at where the Bible's god put the Jews--on the only property in the middle east without oil. I'm guessing that the other gods fought Jehovah to save the good spots for the Arabs. So . . . you might want to beleive in the Zoroastrian gods, if they can kick Jehovah's ass like that . . .

    But all this theorizing over what different gods can kick what other god's ass is silliness, primarily because it's nothing but supposition and make-beleive. Since there's no evidence to support the nonsense of a god or gods or goddesses, and there's lots of evidence to support the notion that people who preach about gods and goddesses are crackpots, you may as well pick the last choice (4), beleive in no gods or goddesses. It's the only rational option.

    -Tock
    I didnt want to bring specific religions, but I will, in the Islamic point of view, GOD sent down about 300,000 prophets down to the earth. They could be prophets like Buddah, Ram the Hindu God, Confusius, Plato, and other great learned men. GOD we belive send down 300,000 of these great men, or Prophets.

    So that 1 million GODS thing might be a little far fetched. About 80% or more of the world the belives in GOD, believes in 5 different GODS.

    Islam/Judaism/Christianity belives in one GOD. That makes about 3.3 billion people.

    Out of 6.5 Billion people, half belive in one GOD.

    Hinduism belives in one GOD that takes on different shapes or forms, or personalitys. That is another 1 billion followers.

    So about 4.5 billion people out of 6.5 belive in 2 GODS.

    So although you have a point about having million's of GODS. According to modern times, and modern trends.

    Its a safe bet that the majority of the believing world, belives in less than 5 gods.

    So probablities are still good for a beliver than a non-believer. Because even if there are million GODS. The person has a better probabilty of going to "Heaven" than a non-beliver of that particular GOD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Here is my view.

    Where did we all come from? No one really knows.
    No one knows is not a good answer. Lets say you flip a coin.

    Some one says "Tock - Call heads of Tails"

    You being a skeptic, say "I dont know what it will be, so my answer is I dont know"

    Now your buddy, will say I will pick heads, although I know this choice could be wrong.

    Who is better off, after the flip?

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    And about your million GOD statement. Use the coin flip analogy again. Lets say a coin had 1 million sides.

    Tock being a skeptic says I dont know what side it will be, I wont pick any.

    Causasian being a beliver says I will pick Side 1.

    I still have a greater probabilty of being right than you, no matter how many sides. Although harder with the more sides/gods you put in the mix.

    Still the probabilites are greater on my side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Balboner
    sounds like some doubt, what if you don't have the luxuary of dying on your death bed?
    HARVEY u da man ! ............... awesome point ............. ppl dont realize they cant even say i will be alive tommorrow , and they think they will die on their beds .................. i think ALIA ( the young black singer ) who dies in a plane crash , was thinking of sipping some margaritas on the island with here friend sin a bikini , but hey she ended up in a freakin coffin .............. life is not in your hands believe me , you guys r young now , wait till u get old u will see life more clearly then !

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I personally am a firm beliver in GOD, not based on probablity but intense faith and trust in GOD.

    But atheists say I dont see GOD, so he must not exist. GOD is infinitly beyond our comprehension, since, being indivisible and without limits, he bears no realtion to us. Reason cannot answer the question. Reason cannot make you choose if he exists or not, reason cannot prove either wrong. It is the heart which percieves GOD and not the reason. That is what faith is: God percieved by the heart, not by reason.
    does an ATHEIST have a brain , i cant see it , does that mean he really has somethign in his/her skull , or is it just a pea rattling inside it !

    GOD is not a mathematical equation that u can prove or disapprove , thats why he gave us a heart and a brain , and most of the time the heart overrides the brains logical thinking cause thats what the brain does , it figures out and comprehends to what it sees , and feels , but the heart is totally different even today scientists cannot figure out the phenomena of the heart , the way it drives human emotions and feelings is a miracle in itself ............ and GOD doesnt want u to see him with your brain , he wants u to see him through your instincts of the heart !
    Last edited by ZOAIB; 11-19-2004 at 03:45 AM.

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    Categorical People !!!!!!!!!!!

    the categorical people i am goignt ot laka bout are people who are materialistic , if not that then follow their hearts every desire if not that they are lustful if not that they are selfish if not that they are too busy for anyone else if not that then they are indulged in this life to the point where what they see and percieve becomes enough of a reality for them to live in ......... and these r the people who will always reject GOD ,

    Tock , question ?

    have u ever really spiritually wanted to be elevated , meaning look for God ever tried an immense amount of time to search for him , or to investigate about him in any manner of speaking , ( our belief in islam is Allah says , " if u move on step towards me i will move a 10 steps towards u , if u come walkign towards me i will come running towards u " NOBLE QURAN ) ......... to believe in God is to surrender yourself , become at peace with yourself , and then truly u will find him ............. also God tells us that he only guides those that he wills , and misguides those that he chooses to be ............. meaning if u want to just follow your own out of controlled will he will grant u that path , and if u want to be a pacifist about your will , he will grant u the right path ....................... so if u want a pearl either u go to a jewellry store or u dive into the ocean and get oen out of shell ............. either way u have to make the effort first to gain anything , and this holds true to all walks of life !

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    And about your million GOD statement. Use the coin flip analogy again. Lets say a coin had 1 million sides.

    Tock being a skeptic says I dont know what side it will be, I wont pick any.

    Causasian being a beliver says I will pick Side 1.

    I still have a greater probabilty of being right than you, no matter how many sides. Although harder with the more sides/gods you put in the mix.

    Still the probabilites are greater on my side.
    yes thats statistics for your brain !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    also God tells us that he only guides those that he wills , and misguides those that he chooses to be ............. meaning if u want to just follow your own out of controlled will he will grant u that path , and if u want to be a pacifist about your will , he will grant u the right path ....................... so if u want a pearl either u go to a jewellry store or u dive into the ocean and get oen out of shell ............. either way u have to make the effort first to gain anything , and this holds true to all walks of life !
    To me an Atheist questions the wrong things. Instead of questioning why we are here, and how this great universe was created, they start by questioning GOD.

    When asked how the universe was created they say, I dont know, we dont know. When asked is there a GOD, they are sure the answer is no.

    Very strange.

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    I am curious as to what Pascal would have to say to all of those poor Greeks, Romans and other polytheistic bastards? Hell, (no pun intended) I'm curioius as to what today's believers make of such societies. Zeus and company were believed in just as fervently as "God", and that belief shaped and molded that society to the same degree that "God" shapes and molds our society today. People were put to death, persecuted and dominated through that religion just as surely as they are subject to all of those things under today's religions. In short: the fervor, zeal, faith and belief of those polytheistic societies was just as strong, genuine, (misguided?), and 'tangible' as the faith exhibited by today's religions.

    So....more fun with logic and probability since that seems to dominate the discourse in here:
    1. We have at one point in human history a major polytheistic religion
    2. We have at another point in human history a major monotheistic religion
    3. Either: major polytheistic *was* incorrect and a fallacy, major monotheistic *is* incorrect and a fallacy, or BOTH were and are incorrect and a fallacy.

    Either way, we are absolutely forced to accept the fact that, even if an overwhelming percentage of a society believes in something with all of their hearts, that does not make its existence assured, or even correct. In fact, as shown above, it can, and HAS *at least once* been demonstrated that even with that belief and faith, that faith was entirely misplaced as the entity could not and did not exist (as the monotheistic and polytheistic cultures are mutually exclusive - both can not be right).

    So, following that, and simply sticking to logic (leave opinion out of this), the *probability* of DEMONSTRATED evidence lends credence to the atheist or agnostic (I'm speaking solely in terms of probability since that was the theme that began this thread) in that at LEAST one major religion with genuine faith and belief over time that shaped a culture has, ipso facto, been proven wrong and nonexistent. No atheist viewpoint has been proven wrong over the millenia...AT LEAST one major and genuinely believed in religion has. Looked at from this perspective, ODDS now shift to the atheist.

    EDIT: (add on)...Basically, I'm always very curious as to how today's devout religious people 'deal' with the fact that, if their view is to be taken as the 'real' view, that the Native Americans, Greeks, Romans, Zulu, Chinese, etc, etc, etc exhibited the same amount of faith and zeal in a religion but, by the very rightness of their view, know that these aforementioned civilizations were dead wrong in their religions despite unyielding faith. How do they reconcile that? Or, more appropriately, how do they not more openly entertain that they could be wrong, as have been hundreds of civilizations prior that had the same fervor and faith? History has demonstrated over and over again the consistency with which religions have been 'disproved' by the existence of other religions. As they can not all be correct, hundreds and hundreds of examples exist as to religions being false....how do you ignore that evidence?
    Last edited by BigGreen; 11-19-2004 at 08:03 AM.

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    There is no Hell

    Let me tell you why I know: years ago someone did me a terrible wrong. That person was not related to me, in fact I was barely acquainted with the person, yet I forgave him in my heart. I do not have infinite compassion nor am I filled with ultimate mercy. If we believe the muttering of our religious teachings we have to accept as fact that God is most Merciful and Compassionate.

    If I can be merciful and compassionate with an almost total stranger, how can God be less so with the embodiment of his own imagination, his beloved children, the image of his soul and the joyous fruit of his Creation?

    No, you must have faith that God is not at all a mean, unforgiving, unjust, unmerciful, uncompassionate, low-life, petty SOB. If you think so - then Hell is room temperature and you are living in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGreen
    So, following that, and simply sticking to logic (leave opinion out of this), the *probability* of DEMONSTRATED evidence lends credence to the atheist or agnostic (I'm speaking solely in terms of probability since that was the theme that began this thread) in that at LEAST one major religion with genuine faith and belief over time that shaped a culture has, ipso facto, been proven wrong and nonexistent. No atheist viewpoint has been proven wrong over the millenia...AT LEAST one major and genuinely believed in religion has. Looked at from this perspective, ODDS now shift to the atheist.
    Well BigGreen, you changed the question. It is not who has been right or who has been wrong. It is who has a better chance or going to "heaven" or "hell", probabilty wise, after death.

    So lets say in the history of the world there were 2 million Gods, a person that belives in one GOD, still has a better probabilty of being right than a person that takes no side. As I explained with my coin flip analogy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwithin
    There is no Hell

    Let me tell you why I know: years ago someone did me a terrible wrong. That person was not related to me, in fact I was barely acquainted with the person, yet I forgave him in my heart. I do not have infinite compassion nor am I filled with ultimate mercy. If we believe the muttering of our religious teachings we have to accept as fact that God is most Merciful and Compassionate.

    If I can be merciful and compassionate with an almost total stranger, how can God be less so with the embodiment of his own imagination, his beloved children, the image of his soul and the joyous fruit of his Creation?

    No, you must have faith that God is not at all a mean, unforgiving, unjust, unmerciful, uncompassionate, low-life, petty SOB. If you think so - then Hell is room temperature and you are living in it.
    Where is justice? I can kill 1000 people, rape 1000 women and still not go to hell? Is that justice?

    GOD in the Christian/Islam/Judiasm sense has done somethings we might see as not very merciful, like the floods for 40 days and nights, etc etc etc.

    Again you are giving GOD human qualities. We cannot comprehend the notion of GOD to be giving him human qualities.

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    Lets suppose that there really is a God. You believe God is all knowing yes? dont you think God would know a true believer from a pascal believer? The only thing we know for certain, is that we dont know anything at all. Nobody knows 1 god or 2 or xGods exists, people believe because it's how they were brought up, they read the Quran or bible and it appealed to them, any number of reasons. Don't you think that an all knowing god -if one exists- would rather have a person who lived by their own conviction -since thats why God gave us the freedom of choice in the first place right?- than one who lived by scar tactics?

    Like I said before, people dont know much about anything. But nobody likes not knowing, so they say God created everything. And then different religions spin off what they think God is. But nobody knows. I'll continue to live by my own convictions, and personally, I think God would rather have me doing that than lying to try and get into heaven. The funny thing with probablility, is there is always a chance it will be wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Where is justice? I can kill 1000 people, rape 1000 women and still not go to hell? Is that justice?

    GOD in the Christian/Islam/Judiasm sense has done somethings we might see as not very merciful, like the floods for 40 days and nights, etc etc etc.

    Again you are giving GOD human qualities. We cannot comprehend the notion of GOD to be giving him human qualities.
    who says there is justice? last I checked this is an unfair world. See what I;m saying? People want to believe in God because they want a heaven and a hell, they want justice. But then again, how does that saying go "wish in one hand and spit in another and see which fills faster"

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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    Lets suppose that there really is a God. You believe God is all knowing yes? dont you think God would know a true believer from a pascal believer? The only thing we know for certain, is that we dont know anything at all. Nobody knows 1 god or 2 or xGods exists, people believe because it's how they were brought up, they read the Quran or bible and it appealed to them, any number of reasons. Don't you think that an all knowing god -if one exists- would rather have a person who lived by their own conviction -since thats why God gave us the freedom of choice in the first place right?- than one who lived by scar tactics?
    Very right. In Islam we belive its all about intention. I know some radical Sunni Muslims who pray alot just to show other how religious they are. They always talk about how religious they are, and on the side the do drugs like Cocaine. I have seen these hypocrites.

    Its all about intention. A person can look like the Pope, but if his intention is not right, that is bad.

    Again it all boils down to intention.

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    so if it does boil down to intention, then pascals theory goes out the window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Where is justice? I can kill 1000 people, rape 1000 women and still not go to hell? Is that justice?

    GOD in the Christian/Islam/Judiasm sense has done somethings we might see as not very merciful, like the floods for 40 days and nights, etc etc etc.

    Again you are giving GOD human qualities. We cannot comprehend the notion of GOD to be giving him human qualities.
    Justice and fairness are human qualities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    And about your million GOD statement. Use the coin flip analogy again. Lets say a coin had 1 million sides.

    Tock being a skeptic says I dont know what side it will be, I wont pick any.

    Causasian being a beliver says I will pick Side 1.

    I still have a greater probabilty of being right than you, no matter how many sides. Although harder with the more sides/gods you put in the mix.

    Still the probabilites are greater on my side.


    Not a very good analogy . . .

    I know that the outcome of a coin toss it will be either heads, tails, or the coin could roll across the floor and get stuck on its side, or slip down a drain never to be seen or heard from again.

    I also know that the reasonable response to "Do goddesses exist?" is "I don't know," because I have no information about them, and no way to obtain reliable information on the subject. I do know that humans are apt to create stories and have been making up tales of supernatural beings for thousands of years. My common sense tells me that most, if not all, of those stories are not 100% true. They are, however, charming tales that teach lessons that we mortals can often profit by . . .

    So, beleive what you like; whatever flips your skirt . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    Tock , question ?

    have u ever really spiritually wanted to be elevated , meaning look for God ever tried an immense amount of time to search for him , or to investigate about him in any manner of speaking

    Sure.

    I got wrapped up in Christian Fundamentalism for 15 years or so, did the "speaking in tongues" bit, taught the adult Sunday School class for a few years, played the organ and piano in church, even preached a few sermons (not my finest moments, though). Being a slow learner, it took me a while to figure out stuff that other people notice right off . . . like the inconsistancies and irrational stuff in the Bible, how people claimed that the "Holy Spirit" regenerated their lives, but a closer look showed those claims to be false--in every case. How seldom that prayer solved anything; and when things did improve, it was usually due to doctors and medicine and people getting off their lazy butts and working.

    I finally figured out I had been taken in by the world's oldest scam, and extricated myself from it . . . and by the grace and goodwill of Madelyn Murray O'Hair (may her mangled corpse rest in peace) I am FREE of religiously imposed guilt, FREE of the fear of backsliding into eternal ****ation, and best of all, I can now sleep late on Sunday mornings and not think I should be in church.

    Ya, atheism has definitely improved my life. I heartily recommend it, as it will improve yours as well . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    so if it does boil down to intention, then pascals theory goes out the window.
    I am not saying people should belive in GOD because of Pascal's probabilty analysis. All I am saying is, for the doubters, the odds of a theist benefiting in the long run are better than a atheist, probabilty wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    who says there is justice? last I checked this is an unfair world. See what I;m saying? People want to believe in God because they want a heaven and a hell, they want justice. But then again, how does that saying go "wish in one hand and spit in another and see which fills faster"
    I belive certain laws govern the universe. It isnt some random "program", there is a set routine. That is why our world (Earth) seems routine. We expect the Sun to rise again tomorrow without any question.

    For every action there is a greater of equal reaction. I belive that goes for human actions as well.

    See you all in Hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Well BigGreen, you changed the question. It is not who has been right or who has been wrong. It is who has a better chance or going to "heaven" or "hell", probabilty wise, after death.
    Title of thread: Atheists must belive the Odds are on their side - Pascals View

    My analysis: demonstrates that this is the case. Statistically, history has demonstrated that odds ARE with the atheist. Your conjecture that there is a god of ANY kind is akin to my saying "someone must win the world series in 2023, therefore, a bet on the Houston Astros has a greater probability of winning than no betting no one will win it at all". The problem with that is there may very well NOT be a world series in 2023, and thus stating that NO team will win the world series in 2023 might just be the safer bet - oddswise. Now, if history had only demonstrated that, year after year, the world series was not played (much as, year after year, history has shown religions to be wrong...all those polytheistic societies) and the only year we could not be sure about was this year (maybe it will be played and maybe it won't)...odds are certainly with NO PLAY.

    Otherwise, aside from a cute semantic twist on my argument, I noticed you've conveniently avoided my question as to what any devout follower of a religion (whether it be Islam, Christianity, Scientology or the worshipping of the rust ring around a toilet bowl) has to say about the thousands of religions that are instantly invalidated by the validation of theirs? Religions upon which entire socieites were based, traditions formed and the world changed....DEAD WRONG. I can understand the veracity with which people might think theirs is in fact correct despite the fact that every religion coming before theirs is invalid (an implicit fact in their very faith), but how is it that this does not give that person reason to ponder? If EVERY person who touched the stove before me was burned, even if i went ahead and touched it, how could i honestly say it was not a SERIOUS thought as to whether I'd get burned as well? EDIT: I'm even allowing for the possibility that touching the stove could bring you eternal bliss and all that great stuff, but, even so, I don't see how that notion that every other person in line was burned doesn't factor in.
    Last edited by BigGreen; 11-19-2004 at 02:24 PM.

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    I don't know how you guys (Tock, BG) have the patience to argue with these guys. Every point you made is countered by Zoiab/Causasian with a blindingly obvious logical fallicy. Or their statements omit many points relevant to the practicality of their argument.

    You'll never win an argument with them. Faith is a powerful emotion. You're asking them to break up with their long term girlfriend.

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