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  1. #1
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    Jewish Devil vs Christianity Devil...MMC78?

    I saw in the thread about demons and ghosts you mentioned Jews devil is different than other religion's devil. I didnt know that, what is the difference??

    THanks.

    Max

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    There is no difference between satan in either religion. The only difference is the amount of involement satan had in the Old Testament. At that time the Jews where not promised Heaven or Hell and the curses God placed on the jews, he took responsibility for. Now in the New Testament is more involved and further described. ANd then we are also led to beleive that satan is responsible for the bad things that happen to us in life.

    Here is where I have a problem with the concept. In JOB it shows Satan walking into heaven and making a deal for control of a persons life. I beleive Satan was predestined and made for the purpose of being Gods Tool. Satan only has the power that God gives him. Satan can only do what God lets him do. He isnt getting over on god nor is he doing anything that God will not allow him. To me Satan is a scapegoat for God. Someone to do the dirty work in his Big plan.

    Im sure some christians will have a problem with this. But im happy to debate them on this issue.

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    I kind of see your poin of view Anhydro78.....its hard to believe that Satan is willingly opposing god and that god is letting him do so freely, Which is only possible if god and satan were somewhat close or even in power and abilities!!! and thats where the problem is because in every religeon in which satan exists...he is clearly much weaker than god and has absolutly no match in power or ability, which makes it hard to accept that god lets him do as he pleases and corrupt peoples lives!!

    For me its easier to accept the scapegoat theory except we have to give more credit because its not for his own amusement...satan never grabs u by the hand and takes u to do sin....he just tempts u and those weak in faith and determination will surely falter and lose to temptation! And sadly thats the majority of us humans because how many people u know can resists every temptation in life from smallest to largest?

    Also the concept of satan being able to be all around the world doing his dirty work at the same time and being behind every persons thoughts and movements is kind of hard to comprehend because thats a very 'godly' ability which once again makes satan even/equal to gods might if u believe he can do it!! Then in Islam satan has many followers so they all help him do the dirty work which takes a load off his horns.

    I wonder sometimes....does satan hate freedom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    There is no difference between satan in either religion. The only difference is the amount of involement satan had in the Old Testament. At that time the Jews where not promised Heaven or Hell and the curses God placed on the jews, he took responsibility for. Now in the New Testament is more involved and further described. ANd then we are also led to beleive that satan is responsible for the bad things that happen to us in life.

    Here is where I have a problem with the concept. In JOB it shows Satan walking into heaven and making a deal for control of a persons life. I beleive Satan was predestined and made for the purpose of being Gods Tool. Satan only has the power that God gives him. Satan can only do what God lets him do. He isnt getting over on god nor is he doing anything that God will not allow him. To me Satan is a scapegoat for God. Someone to do the dirty work in his Big plan.

    Im sure some christians will have a problem with this. But im happy to debate them on this issue.
    actaully the islamic belief about satan is just as u are explaining here , although we beleive he was not fo the angels he was created out of pure fire , hence he was a jinn , and since he worshipped God with full submission God granted him the highest rank among the angels , but when he rebelled against GOD ( his ego got the better of him since God made all the angels bow down to Adam , and satan didnt do it , his explanation was he is made out of mud whereas he himself is made of fire , so he should be superior ) hence God banished him from heaven and he asked God that in favour of all his worships he would like to be granted time , till the day of judgement , where he will prove to God , that humans are not worthy of the status God bestowed upon them , and he will misguide them so they dont follow Gods way of living , and so he was granted imunity till that day , (note: we also beleive he was predestined to be like that , although the way things played out God knowing his character knew he would revolt , but still he had a choice , thats another thing that his ego just got the better of him ) , its true without satan this whole test of life would not have been perfect in play , so there had to be evil to differentiate from good ..................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    There is no difference between satan in either religion.
    There is a large difference. In Judaism, Satan is not the devil... there is no embodiement of evil. Unfortunately, I don't have time to post on this subject until later today or tomorrow.

    In the mean time here is a link:
    http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/satan.html

    Contrast this with the way Satan was portrayed by John the Greek gospel writer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    I kind of see your poin of view Anhydro78.....its hard to believe that Satan is willingly opposing god and that god is letting him do so freely, Which is only possible if god and satan were somewhat close or even in power and abilities!!! and thats where the problem is because in every religeon in which satan exists...he is clearly much weaker than god and has absolutly no match in power or ability, which makes it hard to accept that god lets him do as he pleases and corrupt peoples lives!!

    For me its easier to accept the scapegoat theory except we have to give more credit because its not for his own amusement...satan never grabs u by the hand and takes u to do sin....he just tempts u and those weak in faith and determination will surely falter and lose to temptation! And sadly thats the majority of us humans because how many people u know can resists every temptation in life from smallest to largest?

    Also the concept of satan being able to be all around the world doing his dirty work at the same time and being behind every persons thoughts and movements is kind of hard to comprehend because thats a very 'godly' ability which once again makes satan even/equal to gods might if u believe he can do it!! Then in Islam satan has many followers so they all help him do the dirty work which takes a load off his horns.

    I wonder sometimes....does satan hate freedom?

    i will correct u here bro ! God does let him do freely what satan does in corrupting humans , since God also has given us the message and those who follow the message are imune to satans control , so we have the defense against him all we need to do is make use of it , only the weakling fall prey to his ways , also on the day of judgement he wont be punished for our sins , since all he did was tell us false promises and we heard him and followed him instead of God , satan would say " hey man i only told u what to do , if u were so dumb to do it well , to make up for it ill give u VIP entrance to hell , and dont thank me really its an honor to have u down there "

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    There is a large difference. In Judaism, Satan is not the devil... there is no embodiement of evil. Unfortunately, I don't have time to post on this subject until later today or tomorrow.

    In the mean time here is a link:
    http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/satan.html

    Contrast this with the way Satan was portrayed by John the Greek gospel writer.
    u know i read the article on that link , but i really couldnt still grasp the concept clearly about satan in judaisim , will wait for your view .........

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    only the weakling fall prey to his ways ..:

    thats not right man, u know for a fact that some of the strongest and very faithful have fallen to his ways before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    I wonder sometimes....does satan hate freedom?
    Can you stop saying that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    thats not right man, u know for a fact that some of the strongest and very faithful have fallen to his ways before.
    if they were strong , they couldnt have , but if they did then they are weak in faith , GET IT ? ............. plus he knows how to manipulate us very well ...........

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    All men at some point fall - Sin has become engraved in man - and it remains engraved in his flesh from birth till death . All men fall to the temptation of this Sin .

    I think satan is stronger and wiser than most give him credit - most christains view him as already being " defeated and crushed " - but that does not mean he doesn't have the power to utterly crush you and all you hold dear as he has done this through his pawns countless times .

    I do not think satan is everywhere at once physically , but I do believe he has ears and eyes all about . he works through people in a fashion similar to God's .
    Last edited by Gorgoroth_; 11-20-2004 at 08:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgoroth_
    All men at some point fall - Sin has become engraved in man - and it remains engraved in his flesh from birth till death . All men fall to the temptation of this Sin .

    I think satan is stronger and wiser than most give him credit - most christains view him as already being " defeated and crushed " - but that does not mean he doesn't have the power to utterly crush you and all you hold dear as he has done this through his pawns countless times .

    I do not think satan is everywhere at once physically , but I do believe he has ears and eyes all about . he works through people in a fashion similar to God's .
    we believe in the jinn , who were created before man , and are mad eout of pure fire , a lot of them follow satan as his minions , to give an example ........ when one of his minions returns to satans court where they talk about what they did , if one of them mentions he made a husband n wife fight each other and resulting in seperation , that one is given a crown from satan for doing so !

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    I kind of see your poin of view Anhydro78.....its hard to believe that Satan is willingly opposing god and that god is letting him do so freely, Which is only possible if god and satan were somewhat close or even in power and abilities!!! and thats where the problem is because in every religeon in which satan exists...he is clearly much weaker than god and has absolutly no match in power or ability, which makes it hard to accept that god lets him do as he pleases and corrupt peoples lives!!

    For me its easier to accept the scapegoat theory except we have to give more credit because its not for his own amusement...satan never grabs u by the hand and takes u to do sin....he just tempts u and those weak in faith and determination will surely falter and lose to temptation! And sadly thats the majority of us humans because how many people u know can resists every temptation in life from smallest to largest?

    Also the concept of satan being able to be all around the world doing his dirty work at the same time and being behind every persons thoughts and movements is kind of hard to comprehend because thats a very 'godly' ability which once again makes satan even/equal to gods might if u believe he can do it!! Then in Islam satan has many followers so they all help him do the dirty work which takes a load off his horns.

    I wonder sometimes....does satan hate freedom?
    Why does satan have to be almost equal to God in power in order for God to allow Satan to do things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgoroth_
    All men at some point fall - Sin has become engraved in man - and it remains engraved in his flesh from birth till death . All men fall to the temptation of this Sin .

    I think satan is stronger and wiser than most give him credit - most christains view him as already being " defeated and crushed " - but that does not mean he doesn't have the power to utterly crush you and all you hold dear as he has done this through his pawns countless times .

    I do not think satan is everywhere at once physically , but I do believe he has ears and eyes all about . he works through people in a fashion similar to God's .
    I totally agree...Satan is defeated before the last war even begins, but he totally has power over us and can crush us without true conviction. He is very strong and very wise, hes the greatest deciever ever...to man. But of course far weak compared to God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I totally agree...Satan is defeated before the last war even begins, but he totally has power over us and can crush us without true conviction. He is very strong and very wise, hes the greatest deciever ever...to man. But of course far weak compared to God.
    yep i second that from an islamic point of view aswell !

    (oye ! i thought we were gonna blow guts man ???? what happened )

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    There is a large difference. In Judaism, Satan is not the devil... there is no embodiement of evil. Unfortunately, I don't have time to post on this subject until later today or tomorrow.

    In the mean time here is a link:
    http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/satan.html

    Contrast this with the way Satan was portrayed by John the Greek gospel writer.
    I await a more clear explanation as well.

    But from that page:

    This brings me to the explaination of "Lucifer". Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire. One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. There is no Lucifer, no devil in the Tanach, but there are many, many adversaries and accusers of the Jewish people."

    This explanation doesnt make sense to me. If this is talking about the Babylonian empire, then how do you/he explain the very next verses where it says
    Quote Originally Posted by ISAIAH 14:13-14
    "You said in your heart, " I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.""

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