11-23-2004, 08:06 AM #1
Is Jesus Really God or a regular man? Let's see what he sais.
References to himself as a man:
Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
In the Gospel according to Mark 13:31-32, Jesus is also reported to have denied having knowledge of when the final hour of this world would be, saying: “Heaven and the earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away, but of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in the heaven nor the Son but the Father.” One of the attributes of God is omniscience, knowledge of all things. Therefore, his denial of knowledge of the Day of Judgement is also a denial of divinity, for one who does not know the time of the final hour cannot possibly be God
There are many verses in the New Testament supporting the messengership / prophethood of Jesus. The following are only a few: In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: “And the crowds said, ‘This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.’ ” In Mark, 6:4, it is stated that Jesus referred to himself as a prophet: “And Jesus said to them, ‘A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.’ ” In the following verses, Jesus is referred to as having been sent as a messenger is sent. In Matthew 10:40, Jesus was purported to have said: “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” In John 17:3, Jesus is also quoted as saying: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Jesus admits to having no power and that any man that believes in God can perform the same miracles:
There are also texts in the New Testament which confirm that Jesus did not act on his own. Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing...” and in Luke 11:20, as saying, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.” In Acts 2:22, Paul writes: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know...”
11-23-2004, 08:22 AM #2
Jesus was a man. Plain and simple......but a man with a solid connection with the Father. There's the difference.
11-23-2004, 08:24 AM #3Originally Posted by Juggernaut
11-23-2004, 08:28 AM #4
i would think he is part of God since in the bible they said he performed miracles
11-23-2004, 08:36 AM #5
Jesus was a perfect man........who after the resurrection was elevated to the right hand of God......by the Spirit of God.......He was given the name of God......He became part of God who is becoming all in all
11-23-2004, 08:37 AM #6
I'm still under the impression he was a man but a man with solid faith that his actions and words were the accomplishment of God's direct hand.
11-23-2004, 08:39 AM #7Originally Posted by Badgerman
11-23-2004, 08:41 AM #8Originally Posted by nickrizz
11-23-2004, 10:49 AM #9
This is my belief on Trinity. I believe God is one being in 3 'forms', Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I believe they are 1 and the same, but are definatly distinct/separate. Verses like the others posted on this thread are used to say that Jesus is totally separate from God and the trinity is wrong. I half agree. I believe that God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, though part of that same being, do seem to have their own actions and act separate from eachother, but that doesnt mean they are not one being. What ties the trinity into my belief? The verses that are clearly talking about 2 or more parts of the trinity as plural forms, but then refer to these plural parts as a singular,
Revelation 21:22; 22:1-5 "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." ... "Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever."
The Father and the Son themselves are a single temple not two and with one light they shine, not two.
The Father and the Son, although two distinct persons, are seen sitting one throne not two. (Rev 3:21; 22:1-3) It says throne not "thrones."
Christians are called, "bond-servants" (common word for slave) who serve the Father and the Son who are referred to as "Him" rather than "them." Yet we also know that the very first statement in the book of Revelation 1:1 is that Christians are bondservants of Christ. Then again Jesus calls Christian’s, "His bondslaves". Then again in Rev 2:20 we are called bondservants of Christ. Interestingly, in Revelation 7:3; 11:18; 19:2,5 the Christians are called bondslaves of the Father. This is very significant, because when we finally get to the end of the book, we see Christians called bondslaves of both the Father and the son USING THE SINGLULAR twice in Rev 22:3 and Rev 22:6. Revelation 22:6 Another is the continued use of the singular to refer to both the Father and the Son: "And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. " (Revelation 22:6) This is doubly emphasized by Rev 22:16, where Jesus says it was He who sent his angel to Christians.
In Rev 22:3 they will serve the Father and Son as "him" rather than "them".
In Rev 22:5, The Father and Son reign forever. Yet in Rev 20:6 the singular "Him" is applied to the two of them, as though they are one
Both are co-recipients of worship Heb 1:6; Rev 5:11-14; Matt 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Rev 19:10
Both are co-recipients of the kind of "service" that is only allowed to God: Matt 4:10; Rev 22:3f Greek--latreuo)
Notice the identical structure in Rev 20:6 speaks of Christ or both, but not the Father alone. "but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev 20:6
Both Rev 20:6 and 22:3 have the Father and the Son referred to as the singular "him". This shows the unity between the two
Another good verse is Zechariah 12: 10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
This is God's words and he said "...look upon me whom they have pierced.." Who was pierced?? Jesus. Has anyone ever pierced God?? Has anyone ever SEEN God? No. Then why does he say "me" ... to indicate one'ness.
11-23-2004, 11:18 AM #10
11-23-2004, 11:42 AM #11
FYI PB, perhaps you could do a search on trinity for the last 3 months. Weve discussed this a lot. It would help so we dont have to repeat ourselves and to save you the trouble of getting replies that send you to another post. Perhaps read thru, then present new info or new thoughts you may have. Id be glad to answer. But if weve discussed your point already, other than my reply to this thread already, ill send you to the thread we've already gone thru.
Talk to ya soon im sure..
11-23-2004, 03:16 PM #12
Jesus was Jehovah Gods first creation his son.
They are two different beings.
The holy sprit is gods work in progress.
11-23-2004, 03:20 PM #13
what religion bryan2?
11-23-2004, 03:33 PM #14
1:6: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
11-23-2004, 03:38 PM #15
Gospel of John Chapter one
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15: John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
11-23-2004, 03:40 PM #16
What Jesus showed was a perfect example of a relationship with god. He himself was humble to his father.
11-23-2004, 03:41 PM #17
Man was the first Adam.......given a rebellious spirit
Jesus is the last Adam......given the Spirit of God
11-23-2004, 05:14 PM #18
Bagerman I would like to see what your beliefs are exactly with Christianity. The Article you refered me to had a spritual tone to it ( which was great and helped me relize what some of my problem was) Thanks. I think alot of us got off on the wrong foot when we started here.
Im just saying this because you seem to favor christianity.
11-23-2004, 05:58 PM #19Originally Posted by max2extreme
Where does Jesus say he is God? He sais he isn't God many times.
11-23-2004, 05:59 PM #20Originally Posted by Anhydro78
11-23-2004, 09:07 PM #21
I am thought Jesus was the Son of God?
11-23-2004, 09:40 PM #22
badgerman is no longer uh, well i was wating for that to happen..
sorry dont mean to hijack your thread
11-23-2004, 09:40 PM #23
badgerman is no longer uh, well i was wating for that to happen..
sorry dont mean to hijack your thread
11-24-2004, 02:59 PM #24Originally Posted by max2extreme
11-24-2004, 03:32 PM #25Originally Posted by Bryan2
11-24-2004, 03:53 PM #26Originally Posted by Peanut Butter
what of Zechariah 12: 10? Any comments?
If you want Jesus' words, what about Revelation 22:13 "i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" How could that be? God was the first. God was the beginning and God is the end. Yes Jesus says he is. What of his allowing himself to be worshipped?? Yet he taught that worship is only for God.
Jesus nor God ever says they are one in the same. If it did, we wouldnt be having this conversation, so if you say until you see a definitive verse you wont believe, then im sorry to say thats not going to happen. But if you look thru the bible at all of the "trinity" verses that have led me and others to believe in it with knowledge...read what the verse is saying, who is speaking, who is the subject, look at the uses of singular and plural forms, and what Jesus says and does that show his godliness, forgiving of sins...who can forgive sins? Can a man forgive sins? If a friend of yours did some wrong doings to your dad. if your friend apologized, can you forgive your friend for your dad? No, your dad has to be apologized to and forgive your friend. Because you and your dad are different people. Jesus forgave sins. Because he and his father, the father, are the same. Look at the bible. without a bias if possible, and just read the verses. then let me know what you think.
11-24-2004, 03:55 PM #27
LOOK, no offence bro's but the bible is full of contradictions furthering my beliefe that it's a pile of sh1t.
God or a God doesn't exist exept in the minds of his followers, for it is in the minds of these people that carries on this religion.
If you look at it scientificaly you will relise that billions of years ago we were all probably a pool of slime on the earths surface, and just out of pure coincidence two of the right particles happened to meet - thurs forming what we call life which has now evolved into what you see in the mirror every morning.
Now if anyone can provide any hard evidence of an existence of thid god dude then il hold my hands up and say I got it wrong.
This isn't a flame, only my opinion
11-24-2004, 04:24 PM #28
No offence taken CK. Each has views. I will tell you though that the bible is the only 'religious book' that has not been proven wrong. If you think you can, I welcome something scientific that proves the bible is wrong. As you say the bible is..what you say it is...but yet you say "if you look at it scientifically, you will relise that billions of years ago we were all PROBABLY a pool of slime..." why do you choose totally against religion and give it no chance while having no real reason? yea in your mind, you could say "..probably a pool of slime.." in your mind, you could say "...probably God created us..." in your mind, you dont know which, why just assume slime and not give the bible a chance? because it says there was an army of 144000 in one verse but says 14000 in another verse? Do you know the few contradictions in the bible and have you looked at a reason for contradictions? or are you listening to non-christians trying to prove christianity wrong and not looking at it with your own mind?
Please dont take this as a flame either, not meant to offend. And i guess its different if you spent real time studying and gave yourself at least a chance to believe and not just blow it off. If thats the case, im sorry. If you really havnt given it a chance and are just going on what first comes to your mind... i consider that giving in to the easy path.... just my thoughts.
11-24-2004, 08:47 PM #29Originally Posted by Bryan2
11-24-2004, 09:56 PM #30
why dont you start a list of these errors in the bible (chemical king)and we will go though them for you. There is alot of things that have concerned and does concern christians with scripture. I know of most of them. And have problems understanding some of them. But I can shed a little light on some of them.
You guys relize that the argument of wether god was fully god or part or fully human that split up the catholic church.
11-24-2004, 10:45 PM #31
Jesus is the son of God. Therefore Jesus was a part of God. Anything that is directly a part of God is God. Jesus is God in the form of flesh. In order for God to give us salvation he had to come to us, be like us and suffer every transgression of man in order to give us the atonement and the way back to Him, the Father.
11-25-2004, 03:35 AM #32
Perfectly worded Gilster. You need to come around here more. There is a need for more people thaf understand the covenant of GOD.
11-25-2004, 04:31 AM #33
11-25-2004, 05:07 AM #34Originally Posted by max2extreme
11-25-2004, 05:49 AM #35Originally Posted by Chemical King
What about the evidence that does support it?
11-25-2004, 06:29 AM #36
jesus is the SON of God, he is not God
11-25-2004, 06:31 AM #37
and jesus is only his worldly name, in heaven he is michael the arch angel
11-25-2004, 09:20 AM #38Originally Posted by Gilster
11-25-2004, 01:15 PM #39
There is no evidence to support it. You cant call the bible evidence, its only text. It doesnt mean nothing
11-25-2004, 01:17 PM #40Originally Posted by Chemical King
Written by man
Approved by King James. Like King James decided what we should know about God and millions blindly follow it.
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