12-01-2004, 04:10 PM #1
BG Roundtable #2: "In God We Trust"
Quite simply, with the holidays approaching we all get a refreshing reminder as to just how charged and polarized a topic religion is in our society. Town greens barred from displaying a nativity scene, even the phrase "merry christmas" banned from several state-connected activities. Yet, despite this furor each holiday season, every time money changes hand, we've got a solid state "endorsement" if ever there was one in a religious statement.
Why does this remain relatively untouched while nativity scenes, merry xmas and ten commandment tablets get attacked fairly regularly yet a daily equivalent is pushed to the background? Should the phrase remain on our currency? Why or why not? Discuss.
12-01-2004, 05:17 PM #2
Simple, christmas is all about giving gifts to the ones you love.
To me it has no religious meaning whatsoever. None.
As for the "In god we trust" it's part of american history and as such I have no problems with it, it's the same as "god save the queen" or similar phrases from old times.
It's fine in the historical context, but attaching and imposing direct religious meaning to it in todays society is wrong.
12-01-2004, 08:54 PM #3
The phrase has been challenged in court. From what I recollect, the Supreme Court said that the prase was "ceremonial" in nature, and therefore ok.
I wouldn't mind it so much if they printed some paper money with "In God We Don't Trust," something for the atheists and agnostics and Taoists in America, and another batch with "In Gods We Trust" for the polytheists.
Odd thing is, that when they first put that phrase on coins back in the late 1800's, it was the religious people who complained . . . they said that by putting the phrase on money, it demeaned the phrase. Strange how time changes things . . .
12-01-2004, 10:33 PM #4Originally Posted by Tock
12-02-2004, 05:35 AM #5Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
On original topic as to why "in god we trust" isnt touched yet these others are regularly and banned. I think its because everything having to do with christmas is for Jesus....christianity. But a muslim could look at "in god we trust" as 'in allah we trust'. I believe MOST religions have a 'top' god. and they could look at "in god we trust" as their inputted god. There are also more religous people than non-religious, or not so much that go to church, but that believe in some higher being, than not is what I mean, whether they know what that higher being is, they believe. Those behind a computer screen that dont believe in something higher are more outspoken, and im not saying those here are not as outspoken in real life as in front of people, i dont know, but most atheist in your neighborhood, you never know they are and they really dont care if we have stuff to do with a god because they think its ridiculous and just proves how smart they are in their eyes.
(ps: before i get flamed by atheist because of my last comment, if i were to ask you "Do you think Im stupid for believing in God and worshipping him" what would you say?) didnt mean it as a flame at all.
12-02-2004, 05:38 AM #6
I re-read your post red. I have to ask do you really think christmas does NOT have a direct religious meaning??
12-02-2004, 07:57 AM #7
In sweden no one realy thinks of christmas as a religious holiday(well Im sure some do but not one single person I know does). Sure we all know its because of the birth of jesus. But **** christmas is about worshipping a big fat guy in red clothes that hands out presents
Here its all about the delicious christmas food and the presents and meeting your family.
If you think about it christmas is about greed and glutony
12-02-2004, 08:37 AM #8
christmas has lost its religious meaning and it has become a holiday for everyone. its always the extremest wackos at the fringes that create this fight. as for the words in god we trust on my money, i thought it was there so that we could worship the all mighty dollar.
12-02-2004, 08:43 AM #9
The only intelligent thing I have to offer this discussion is that it doesn't say In a Christian God we trust
12-02-2004, 08:44 AM #10Originally Posted by max2extreme
Don't get me wrong, I know that christmas is a holiday that was created around the story of jesus many moons ago and was popularised as a gift exchanging holiday amongst believers and non believers alike, but were it not for the jesus story, I am sure another story would be the basis of our annual gift giving.
In my family, when we celebrate christmas, we celebrate the spirit of giving and "worship" the big jolly dude with the white beard and red suit who gives presents to good kids (as johan said so well), jesus doesn't even enter in the picture, it's really that simple.
pssst only 23 shopping days until christmas!
12-02-2004, 08:48 AM #11
why don't athiests celebrate Festivus? It seemd like a good holiday, the aluminum pole , airing of grievances, feats of strength. (just being a smartasss, no need to attack!) lol
12-02-2004, 09:28 AM #12Originally Posted by 1victor
because if they did the christians would steal it and turn it into their own holiday.
whats up vic, where ya been? i knew if i saw the word god in a thread the word 1victor would soon follow.
12-02-2004, 09:46 AM #13
I been around where you been? I won't steal Festivus I promise!
12-02-2004, 10:28 AM #14AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
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as to the significance of His birth - let us not forget that for more than 1500 years we have measured each year A.D. "anno Domini" the "year of our Lord" or more completely Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi or and BC (before Christ)
And while His birth may or may not have been on Dec 25, and some say thats the Roman sun god day that was adopted or that the Romans adapted their sun god day to counter the Christian holiday's growing influence (maybe like today's santa). But it seems that many in the early church understood Jesus' birth to be in late December (based on the calendar used in the West). The basis of that belief was two-fold - First, they understood Jesus' conception to have occurred on or near the same date as his death - nine months later is late December. Second, they had access to Roman census/tax records which place Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem just before December 25th. These records are referred to by Justin Martyr (100-165), Tertullian (160-250), Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386) and John Chrysostom (347-407).
It is only in this century that Santa Claus has become a commercial phenomenom and thus pushed by merchants as a way to make money - and the whole idea of giving is from the "gift of Christ" to this world. I always laugh when I think that in a few short years we have become wiser than so much of history before us - at least thats what we fool ourselves by thinking.
And Christmas is a Christian holiday - if others like China wish to adopt it for their own reasons (more commercial spending) then they can paint it however they want but it will remain a fact that Christmas is what it is.
12-02-2004, 10:33 AM #15
Cycleon I couldn't agree more we have lost the true meaning of Christmas. It's now a retailers fantasy. Nothing more I believe above Johan said greed and gluttony I agree with that too. I no longer enjoy this holiday.
12-02-2004, 11:27 AM #16
IMO......and others mind you
Jesus was conceived during the Festival of Lights....Hannakuh......this also corresponds to a middle age celebration known as Michaelmas......or the coming of Michael the Archangel......Michael is the right hand of God.....The "Word" of God as spoken in the old teastament.......the "Word" was given by Angels.....Michael is the Angel of God
Jesus was born during the Festival of Booths (Tabernacles) which is in the fall and there are still sheep around......when God dwelt with man......His Angel the very Word of God indwelt a man Jesus......
Every action of Jesus is tied to the Jewish festivals found in Leviticus 23(I think that is the right chapter)
12-02-2004, 12:11 PM #17AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
Originally Posted by Badgerman
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12-02-2004, 02:34 PM #18
I love festivus and i look foward to airing my grievances this year especially!!!!!!
"In God" wasnt added till after the cold war started.... propaganda agianst the "godless commies". Its not something that needs such drama attached to it, deal with it.
12-02-2004, 02:48 PM #19Originally Posted by 1victor
Back in Massachusetts in the 1600's, it used to be illegal to observe Christ Mass. I was considered by the Protestant majority to be a "Papist" holiday, and anything that smacked of Catholicism was roundly discouraged.
Ya, back then the ran Baptists and Catholics out of the state, and hanged Quakers who were run out once and then were crazy enough to return.
That's the sort of religious freedom the original "Founding Fathers" had in mind . . .
12-02-2004, 02:57 PM #20
Morons and lunatics are found everywhere, even in religious groups
12-02-2004, 09:28 PM #21
Ya, well, some of these Religious Right lunatics keep talking about how wonderful the religion of the founding fathers was . . . and how America was founded on religious principles, but not bringing up exactly what those religious principles entailed.
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