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Thread: circumcision

  1. #1
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    circumcision

    circumcision is it just plain religious lunacy? What is the religious reason for it?? I read somewhere that the main idea was to make sex and masturbation less pleasuring.

    And if you want to push the argument that it helps keep the dick clean so there is less chanse for diseases and cancer then plz show me any credible study that shows that those kinds of diseases is more comon in a country like sweden(with few circumsized)then in countries where most is circumsized.

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    getnjacked is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    circumcision is it just plain religious lunacy? What is the religious reason for it?? I read somewhere that the main idea was to make sex and masturbation less pleasuring.

    And if you want to push the argument that it helps keep the dick clean so there is less chanse for diseases and cancer then plz show me any credible study that shows that those kinds of diseases is more comon in a country like sweden(with few circumsized)then in countries where most is circumsized.

    The religious reason was a physical sign of the Abrahamic Covenant . Gen 17:10 "This is My covenant which you sahll keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;" God choose Abraham and his decendants to be kept seperate and and sanctified for His purposes.

    I have no clue why it is practiced today besides, the whole disease thing.

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    It's lunacy.
    I wonder who else collects foreskins . . .

    From I Samuel chapter 18
    25: And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.
    26: And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son in law: and the days were not expired.
    27: Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

    I'm sure that phrase, "and they gave them in full tale to the king" wasn't intended to be a pun . . .

    -Tock

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    Johan's carrying luggage.

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    Reminds me of a guy I knew who had a wallet made out of foreskins. You'd rub it the right way, and it would turn into a suitcase . . .
    -Tock

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    A major portion of the New testament deals with the issue of whether Gentile believers need to be circumcised or not. Acts 15:1-29 deals with the initial conflict of the Apostles in the church in Jerusalem. Their decision was that Gentile Christians were not bound by the circumcision laws of the Old Testament. The book of Galatians is all about Paul telling Gentiles they shouldn't listen to Jews that tell them they have to be circumcised to be Christians. Romans 4 is about that Abraham's circumcision didn't even justify him. It was his faith. These verses my pastor passed on. As a christian, whether or not to be circumcised does not matter religiously speaking, but most do it still half because of the original religious practice, and 2nd because in this time era, its the norm. but not necessary, religiously speaking. It doesnt say anywhere in the bible, (i guess i could be wrong but im going with 99% that im right) that it has anything to do with pleasure. Im not jewish, so dont take this as 100% truth, but I think to a jew it is done still for religious reasons, but since Jesus came, the new covenant takes the place of the old and we are no longer under the law. Kinda like fasting. Christians do not follow under the law to fast, meaning we dont HAVE to. But that doesnt mean that some christians do NOT fast... Theres just not a day set up for it. As a form of worship, giving of yourself, some christians may give up all food for the day and in place of eating, go and pray. Necessary? no. Done? sometimes.

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    getnjacked is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    A major portion of the New testament deals with the issue of whether Gentile believers need to be circumcised or not. Acts 15:1-29 deals with the initial conflict of the Apostles in the church in Jerusalem. Their decision was that Gentile Christians were not bound by the circumcision laws of the Old Testament. The book of Galatians is all about Paul telling Gentiles they shouldn't listen to Jews that tell them they have to be circumcised to be Christians. Romans 4 is about that Abraham's circumcision didn't even justify him. It was his faith. These verses my pastor passed on. As a christian, whether or not to be circumcised does not matter religiously speaking, but most do it still half because of the original religious practice, and 2nd because in this time era, its the norm. but not necessary, religiously speaking. It doesnt say anywhere in the bible, (i guess i could be wrong but im going with 99% that im right) that it has anything to do with pleasure. Im not jewish, so dont take this as 100% truth, but I think to a jew it is done still for religious reasons, but since Jesus came, the new covenant takes the place of the old and we are no longer under the law. Kinda like fasting. Christians do not follow under the law to fast, meaning we dont HAVE to. But that doesnt mean that some christians do NOT fast... Theres just not a day set up for it. As a form of worship, giving of yourself, some christians may give up all food for the day and in place of eating, go and pray. Necessary? no. Done? sometimes.

    Amen to that we are not bound by the law we are in a new dispensation. The age of Grace. Which began at Calvary John 19:30b "It is finished."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Reminds me of a guy I knew who had a wallet made out of foreskins. You'd rub it the right way, and it would turn into a suitcase . . .
    -Tock
    **** thats funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    Amen to that we are not bound by the law we are in a new dispensation. The age of Grace. Which began at Calvary John 19:30b "It is finished."

    Except, of course, for the oft-quoted law in Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    Ya, you hear lots of preachers say that gays shouldn't "lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman," but they disagree with the part that calls for capital punishment. IMHO, there's not much difference between me not complying with that verse in my way, and them not complying with that verse in their way.
    So either way you look at it, the only people complying with this part of the bible are heterosexuals who insist that all gays should be put to death.

    -Tock

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    getnjacked is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Except, of course, for the oft-quoted law in Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    Ya, you hear lots of preachers say that gays shouldn't "lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman," but they disagree with the part that calls for capital punishment. IMHO, there's not much difference between me not complying with that verse in my way, and them not complying with that verse in their way.
    So either way you look at it, the only people complying with this part of the bible are heterosexuals who insist that all gays should be put to death.

    -Tock
    You know, if you lie, steal, murder, evaid taxes, put idols before God, lust, covet, practice any type of sexual immorality etc. you sin. The Levitical law does not apply to use now. But the sin nature we are born into really effects us. Sin is a choice. We are all born with sin. "The wages of sin is death." Not physical death but spiritual death. So all sin has a capital punishment. THere is not one righteous not one. "The gift of God is eternal life." thru Christ. Being born into a new nature empowered by the Holy Spirit gives us recognition of our sins and allows us to seek His strength to not choose to live a "lifestyle" of sin.

    If we were bound to the Law we would have no hope, but we have a redeemer of gives us freedom from the yoke of sin.

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    Syndicate's Avatar
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    The only sin in life is that we are able to think for ourselves.
    self awareness, higher conscience, ect.

    I wouldn't have it any other way PERIOD

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    Amen to that we are not bound by the law we are in a new dispensation. The age of Grace. Which began at Calvary John 19:30b "It is finished."

    You know your the first person I have ever met that says that too. I have gotten in a many of aguements about how Christians are not under the law but Grace. I really feel you would have to have not read the New Testament to not know this. But you still see preachers preachin the 10 commandments and not even mentioning Jesus's two laws. And when you tell them the Law doesnt apply to them and even show them , you get the same reaction as if you just told them Jesus is not God!!!

    Sorry for the Hi jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    You know your the first person I have ever met that says that too. I have gotten in a many of aguements about how Christians are not under the law but Grace. I really feel you would have to have not read the New Testament to not know this. But you still see preachers preachin the 10 commandments and not even mentioning Jesus's two laws. And when you tell them the Law doesnt apply to them and even show them , you get the same reaction as if you just told them Jesus is not God!!!

    Sorry for the Hi jack

    The ten commandments obviously should be followed adultry, lying, stealing, coveting, idolatry etc.

    The law was put into place so the Nation of Isreal could see that they are not worthy to be in the presence of a Holy God because of sin. Without the Law sin would not be known. That is why throughout the whole O.T. the sins needed to be atoned by the High Priest. Without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin. This set the stage for the age of Grace in which Christ's BLood was shed and he became the propitiation for our sins. We are under grace and the law is what revealed that need for grace.

  14. #14
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    I know this, all im saying is there is a better message than not to steal ,murder and commit adultry .. Jesus really made the entire law obsolete with his teachings . Im not saying that the 10 commandments are fair game now. That is what most people take from it when they hear me say that. The 10 commandments was the first step for the uncivilized primative people. It was litterally quit killing,stealing ,ect.. We are held to much higher standards than not to kill, we should not even hate. Its not we should not steal,we should not even want , ect...

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    getnjacked is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    I know this, all im saying is there is a better message than not to steal ,murder and commit adultry .. Jesus really made the entire law obsolete with his teachings . Im not saying that the 10 commandments are fair game now. That is what most people take from it when they hear me say that. The 10 commandments was the first step for the uncivilized primative people. It was litterally quit killing,stealing ,ect.. We are held to much higher standards than not to kill, we should not even hate. Its not we should not steal,we should not even want , ect...

    His Teachings did not make the law obsolete. Rom 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in you heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." His death and ressurection ended the Law not His teachings. He taught during His three year earthly ministry and during that time the were under the law. His teachings pointed to the cross.

  16. #16
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    yeah

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    This is stuff I posted a while back.


    You guys are making an arguement over wether " thou shalt not kill" in the 10 commandments means there is no justification for killing or if it is mis-translated and is suppose to mean murder. The thing that I see you guys are missing is that God did things in steps. You cant take just one sentance out of the bible and either use it to contradict or make it say what ever you want. You have to understand the situation the verse,law was pertaining to. The 10 commandments was the most primative form of order god gave his Hebrew slave followers in attempt to make them a civialized people. There is a reason God didnt dump 613 mosaic laws on them in the first meeting with God. They were not ready for that type of structure yet. The 10 commandments where simple because that is all they where ready for. At that time there was no laws pertaining to capital punishment so the commandment " thou shalt not kill" simply meant quit killing each other.

    For why Christians are not under the law. Christians are under grace not the law. And the teachings of Jesus makes the mosaic law obsolete. Its not good enough to just not murder someone. A christian isnt to even hate another person. And god gives specific intructions on how to avoid hating your enemys. He has you pray for them. Bless them he says. You would be suprised how well this works. If you attempt to follow the law you are a jew. And by being a jew you are condemned by the law. You are not promised heaven, but material things here on earth. Paul fought very hard to expain new converts where not under the law any more.

    K.J.V Romans

    6:6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    6:7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    6:11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    6:18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    6:22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    7:6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    13:9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    13:10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Galatians 5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    1John 3 6-9

    6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


    If there is any debate to wether Christians should follow the letter of the Law. I will post all 613 mosaic laws for you to determine if we are still under that covenant.. Keep in mind that No where in the New Testament does it imply or mention anything about singling out the first 10 of the 613 mosaic laws. Churches and preachers that continually mention the 10 commandments only shows they didnt receive their teachings from God himself but by another mans doctrine. There is no way you can come up with teaching christians to follow the mosaic law by reading the bible yourself.



    Have you MMC78 ever looked at the entire mosaic law? If not ill post it, it is very intresting and couldnt be followed in todays society. There is nothing in the old testament or new testament that indicates that christians can only single out the first 10 commandments of the mosaic law. Our law is jesus's two commandments he even says that the entire law is summed up into these two commandments. Paul had a problem with the early church trying to get converts to practice the new covenant and leave the law behind. Jesus was a Jew and teached the law up untill his death. It is when he died that we could then be under grace rather than the law of death.


    Galatians5:3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    3:24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    3:25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

    2:18: For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

    2:19: For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

    Romans

    2:12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    3:19: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    3:20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    3:21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    4:15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    5:13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

  18. #18
    Tock's Avatar
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    Good post, Anhydro . . .
    In some protestant traditions, the view is that animal blood had to be shed to atone for sins in the Old Testament, but with the "New Covenant," the shedding of Jesus' blood was enough to atone for everyone's sins. It was the shedding of his blood that sealed the New Covenant, making it permanant. Consequently, people no longer are required to comply with the Old Law, things like calling a priest when you've got mildew in your house to homosexual sex to the 10 Commandments.

    From the Gospel of John, chapter 15:

    "10": If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    "11": These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
    "12": This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    The whole chapter shows that Jesus and his one commandment is what his followers are supposed consider of primary importance, and is sufficient to stay in his good graces. Of course, most fundamentalists are focused on a legalistic view of things, and since there seem to be no shortage of them these days, perhaps they should give more consideration to Matthew chapter 7, verses 13 & 14:
    ". . . wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Ya, Jesus is saying here that not many people are gonna get things right, and given the large number of supposed beleivers all parroting the same theology, I'd think that more people would want to be in the minority of opinion . . .


    Of course, this is of concern only if one thinks there is anything to this particular fiction.

    But you, Anhydro, seem to be more in line with Jesus' opinion on this than most other christians I encounter, which, I suppose, gives you an advantage in your afterlife, plus it makes you better company here on earth.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    The ten commandments obviously should be followed adultry, lying, stealing, coveting, idolatry etc.

    You are aware, aren't you, that the Ten Commandments prohibit working on the Sabbath? And owning any graven images, such as pictures on dollar bills or quarters, and pictures in magazines and newspapers and etc? And that the penalty prescribed for these things is death?

    Well, you can champion causes like capital punishment for adultery and become part of the Christian Taliban, but you'll look silly and stupid, but mostly because you will be.

    I hope you spend some time and thought on this . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    Sin is a choice.
    We are all born with sin.
    How can "Sin" be a choice if it is something we are born with?
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anhydro78
    The 10 commandments was the most primative form of order god gave his Hebrew slave followers in attempt to make them a civialized people.
    Christians are under grace not the law.
    If you attempt to follow the law you are a jew.
    And by being a jew you are condemned by the law.
    You are not promised heaven, but material things here on earth. Paul fought very hard to expain new converts where not under the law any more.
    Jesus was a Jew and teached the law up untill his death. It is when he died that we could then be under grace rather than the law of death.
    How in reality could this make any sense? "When you really look at all the pieces" you find why you have to have a blind-faith in this.
    Last edited by Syndicate; 12-09-2004 at 01:05 AM.

  22. #22
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    Why would you have to have blind faith? What part of that is unrealistic..

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    It is reported by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him) mentioned:

    Five are the acts quite akin to fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the hair under the armpits and clipping (or shaving) the moustache (Recorded in "Sahih Muslim", "Sahih Bukhari", "Musnad Ahmed" and "Sunnah At-Tirmidhi"). The word fitra in relation to cleanliness can refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) with regard to this matter, and fitra also "implies an inner sense of cleanliness in man which is proof of his moral convictions and mental health".

    http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sunnet.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    How can "Sin" be a choice if it is something we are born with?
    -Tock
    You are born with hair....You can choose to cut it off. Same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    You are aware, aren't you, that the Ten Commandments prohibit working on the Sabbath? And owning any graven images, such as pictures on dollar bills or quarters, and pictures in magazines and newspapers and etc? And that the penalty prescribed for these things is death?

    Well, you can champion causes like capital punishment for adultery and become part of the Christian Taliban, but you'll look silly and stupid, but mostly because you will be.

    I hope you spend some time and thought on this . . .

    -Tock
    For one, the sabbath is not a certain day of the week because Jesus Christ has become our sabbath.

    For 2 if you want to look at the commandment, it says "6 days thou shalt labor and do all thy work..but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord....no work" It doesnt say "Sunday you will not work" or "Saturday is your day for the Sabbath". It just says work for 6 days, and take a day to rest and worship. Whether that day of rest is Monday or Friday or whatever day, it doesnt matter.

    Also we've gotten onto graven images/idols subject already and we can revisit it if youd like but I think it would be best to start a new thread about it if you do. The bible is not saying its wrong to have pictures depicting heavenly scenes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dally
    Johan's carrying luggage.
    hahahahaha................. i am glad i am not. not to be a perve or anything but i am glad i dont have that natted up skin hangin off my wang.. imo

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    How can "Sin" be a choice if it is something we are born with?
    -Tock

    We are born with sin. We choose to practice a lifestyle of sin. Example As Anhydro said we are free from the law of sin. For those who choose to except Christ. Even though we are freed from sin all fall back into sin at some point wether it is lying, hating, coveting etc. That is why we live in grace. 1john 1:9. Some people choose to daily practice a lifestyle of sin example: watching porn online, etc.

    That is what I meant by choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    You are aware, aren't you, that the Ten Commandments prohibit working on the Sabbath? And owning any graven images, such as pictures on dollar bills or quarters, and pictures in magazines and newspapers and etc? And that the penalty prescribed for these things is death?

    Well, you can champion causes like capital punishment for adultery and become part of the Christian Taliban, but you'll look silly and stupid, but mostly because you will be.

    I hope you spend some time and thought on this . . .

    -Tock
    And I was even going to say that although these things shouldn't be practiced such as lying etc. Some do not apply example is The sabboth. I will make sure I cross my t's and dot my i's next time.

    Interesting how you threw out part of a commandment. Graven images spoke about carving out images and worshipping those images as god. MAybe complete the whole of the context.

    Many of us today do worship these images on the dollar. When our choices we make, put money and the pursuit of it before a relationship with God through Christ, we are worshipping this thing.

    Again you missed the boat on the age of law and grace. The law is dead. But the wages of sin is death. This has not changed. so the lust in a mans heart seperates him form God and creates spiritual death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Good post, Anhydro . . .
    In some protestant traditions, the view is that animal blood had to be shed to atone for sins in the Old Testament, but with the "New Covenant," the shedding of Jesus' blood was enough to atone for everyone's sins. It was the shedding of his blood that sealed the New Covenant, making it permanant. Consequently, people no longer are required to comply with the Old Law, things like calling a priest when you've got mildew in your house to homosexual sex to the 10 Commandments.

    From the Gospel of John, chapter 15:

    "10": If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    "11": These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
    "12": This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    The whole chapter shows that Jesus and his one commandment is what his followers are supposed consider of primary importance, and is sufficient to stay in his good graces. Of course, most fundamentalists are focused on a legalistic view of things, and since there seem to be no shortage of them these days, perhaps they should give more consideration to Matthew chapter 7, verses 13 & 14:
    ". . . wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Ya, Jesus is saying here that not many people are gonna get things right, and given the large number of supposed beleivers all parroting the same theology, I'd think that more people would want to be in the minority of opinion . . .


    Of course, this is of concern only if one thinks there is anything to this particular fiction.

    But you, Anhydro, seem to be more in line with Jesus' opinion on this than most other christians I encounter, which, I suppose, gives you an advantage in your afterlife, plus it makes you better company here on earth.

    -Tock

    Matthew 7:13-14 Lets look at the context of this verse in light of the whole sermon.

    Elaborating on the Golden Rule, Jesus presented the clear way of access into righteousness. The righteousness He demanded (matt 5:20) does not come through the wide....gate and the broad...road. Rather it comes through the small...gate and the narrow...road. In light of the whole sermon, it was obvious Jesus was comparing the wide gate and the broad road to the outward righteousness of the Pharisees. If those listening to Jesus followed the Parisees' teaching, their path would lead to destruction. The narrow gate and road referred to Jesus' teaching which emphasized not external requirements but internal transformation. Even the Lord Jesus acknowledged that few would find the true way, the way that leads to life.

    John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

    He waits for you. Rev. 3:20

    Tock calling this book fiction is no surprise for Paul wrote about those whose heart is not right.

    2Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them beause they are spiritually discerned"

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    For one, the sabbath is not a certain day of the week because Jesus Christ has become our sabbath.

    For 2 if you want to look at the commandment, it says "6 days thou shalt labor and do all thy work..but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord....no work" It doesnt say "Sunday you will not work" or "Saturday is your day for the Sabbath". It just says work for 6 days, and take a day to rest and worship. Whether that day of rest is Monday or Friday or whatever day, it doesnt matter.

    Also we've gotten onto graven images/idols subject already and we can revisit it if youd like but I think it would be best to start a new thread about it if you do. The bible is not saying its wrong to have pictures depicting heavenly scenes.

    Christ is our sabboth

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tock
    How can "Sin" be a choice if it is something we are born with?
    -Tock


    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    You are born with hair....You can choose to cut it off. Same thing.

    Ya, well, you'll have to prove that such a thing as "sin" even exists.
    Seems much more likely to assume that people act like assholes because everyone has an asshole.
    Anyway, demonstrate that there is such a thing as "sin" and we can continue on with this . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    For one, the sabbath is not a certain day of the week because Jesus Christ has become our sabbath.
    Says you.

    Exodus chapter 20 has the text of the 10 Commandments; here's what it says about the Sabbath:

    --------------------------
    8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    --------------------------

    Makes no nevermind to me how creatively you interpret this, but if you and your church leaders are gonna take liberties with your creative theology, you really ought to extend the same right to other folks on other issues, like gay marriage, f'rinstance. There's lots of ways to creatively interpret that issue, too, y'know . . .

    But the customary interpretation of this text, as evidenced in various Blue Laws throughout the country, is that on one day out of the week, usually Sunday, people are not allowed to do stuff.





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    For 2 if you want to look at the commandment, it says "6 days thou shalt labor and do all thy work..but the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord....no work" It doesnt say "Sunday you will not work" or "Saturday is your day for the Sabbath". It just says work for 6 days, and take a day to rest and worship. Whether that day of rest is Monday or Friday or whatever day, it doesnt matter.
    Had you expressed your opinion to the Inquisitors 300 years ago, you would have been forced to recant your view, else be burnt at the stake. Ya, historically speaking, you just wrote a terrible heresy.
    Lucky for you that church people don't run the government the way they used to.




    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Also we've gotten onto graven images/idols subject already and we can revisit it if youd like but I think it would be best to start a new thread about it if you do. The bible is not saying its wrong to have pictures depicting heavenly scenes.
    It says, in Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth," and that pretty well rules out just about everything that gets printed nowadays. Everything from money to traveller's checks to porno and newspaper illustrations.
    Ya, and you can't have any "heavenly scenes," either.

    My gosh, does an atheist have to teach you everything about the bible?

    --Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    2Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them beause they are spiritually discerned"

    So . . . you're saying here, if I'm getting your message, that anything that seems foolish to me is somehow connected with God?

    And if I consider David Icke's allegation that the Queen of England is a shape-shifting lizard www.davidicke.com to be foolish, that is only because I am "the natural man who does not receive the things of God?"

    I don't think so.
    I can tell when someone is full of it . . . I was born at night, but not last night . . .
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by getnjacked
    Tock calling this book fiction is no surprise for Paul wrote about those whose heart is not right.
    Nope.
    I had it checked, and it's working just fine.
    Got to see it pumping on the the sound-picture machine, pretty cool.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Quote:
    Ya, well, you'll have to prove that such a thing as "sin" even exists.
    Seems much more likely to assume that people act like assholes because everyone has an asshole.
    Anyway, demonstrate that there is such a thing as "sin" and we can continue on with this . . .

    -Tock
    Well did I answer your question on how you can be born with something and then choose to do away with it? That was the point of your first post...

    Now to the new topic, proving sin. Sin is the deliberate disobediance to God. By acting against God, you are committing a sin. the word "sin" proves itself by its own definition. Even if you dont believe in God, you have to believe in the definition of sin, thats just what it is. What your true question is is to demonstrate that there is such a thing as God. In which case I say, take a look around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Says you.

    Exodus chapter 20 has the text of the 10 Commandments; here's what it says about the Sabbath:

    --------------------------
    8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    --------------------------

    Makes no nevermind to me how creatively you interpret this, but if you and your church leaders are gonna take liberties with your creative theology, you really ought to extend the same right to other folks on other issues, like gay marriage, f'rinstance. There's lots of ways to creatively interpret that issue, too, y'know . . .But the customary interpretation of this text, as evidenced in various Blue Laws throughout the country, is that on one day out of the week, usually Sunday, people are not allowed to do stuff.
    And like I said, there is at LEAST one day where I dont do any work. Im not creatively interpretting this. No liberties taken. Do you see anywhere in what you posted that makes you think it says 'On Sunday, you will not work'?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    Had you expressed your opinion to the Inquisitors 300 years ago, you would have been forced to recant your view, else be burnt at the stake. Ya, historically speaking, you just wrote a terrible heresy.
    Lucky for you that church people don't run the government the way they used to.
    And I would have done nothing to upset God. Burned at the stake I may have been. Id be in heaven still the same. If I lived during that time, and they said the sabbath was Sunday, I would have still believed and said the same thing, but if it was a punishable law to hold Sunday as Sabath, ok, i wont work on Sunday, its not going against anything in the bible to do that. But it does NOT say in the bible that Sunday is the Sabbath...does it?



    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    It says, in Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth," and that pretty well rules out just about everything that gets printed nowadays. Everything from money to traveller's checks to porno and newspaper illustrations.
    Ya, and you can't have any "heavenly scenes," either.


    Look at Exodus 26:1. In God's commands to Moses concerning the tabernacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman." A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. God said, "And there I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel" (Exodus 25:22). Here are images directly connected with the presence of God, and commanded by Him.

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    [QUOTE=max2extreme] Sin is the deliberate disobediance to God. [/QUOTE}

    You forget, you there is no god . . . at least, none that I'm aware of.
    You can't disobey something that doesn't seem to be anywhere. Of course, if there is one, and if he needs me to obey her wishes, we can discuss it and come to an arrangement.





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    By acting against God, you are committing a sin.
    Again, there is no "acting against God" if there is no "God,"






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    the word "sin" proves itself by its own definition.
    Nothing proves itself by its own definition.
    Human beings create definition for things and concepts, and playing with words doesn't mean diddly squat.
    Until you can produce a deity who demands to be obeyed, we cannot know that there is a need to obey. Chances are much greater that some idiot ate a few bad anchovies, had some weird dreams, and became a theologian and started this madness.

    Any way you slice it, until you can produce proof that the particular being you constantly refer to exists and demands the things you say, there's really no need to suppose you know what you're talking about.







    [QUOTE=max2extreme] Even if you dont believe in God, you have to believe in the definition of sin [.QUOTE]

    Why?




    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    What your true question is is to demonstrate that there is such a thing as God. In which case I say, take a look around.
    Ok, I see war, poverty, thousands of diseases, lice, ticks, guinea worms (3' long boogers that crawl everywhere inside of you, until they burrow through the skin or maybe your brain and eyeball, and slither outside www.astdhpphe.org/infect/guinea.html), tapeworms, roundworms, heartworms, sink holes, black holes, ignorance, intemperance, man-eating sharks, lethal viruses, bacteria, fungi, slow agonizing pain-filled deaths, and Rush Limbaugh.
    If your god created all this, I would say you worship a demon, and not anything that deserves reverence.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    And like I said, there is at LEAST one day where I dont do any work. Im not creatively interpretting this. No liberties taken. Do you see anywhere in what you posted that makes you think it says 'On Sunday, you will not work'?
    Well, there's lots of people smarter than you or I who thought the Sabbath was on Sunday, and consequently passed laws prohibiting anyone from doing a lick of work on that day. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find a hard-core orthodox jewish fellow to explain why the Sabbath is on whatever day he thinks it is.

    Used to be the Spanish Inquisition would torture anyone accused of being idle on Saturday for being a secret Jew, so to avoid problems with the Church Police, folks would make a point of violating the Jewish Sabbath and observing the one the Church said they had to "keep holy."
    I haven't a clue why they picked any particular day of the week to call Sunday; they just as well could have called it Kalaka or Smurgen. Don't know why there are 7 days in a week, either, or 12 months in a year. I doubt it makes any difference, anyway. Maybe one of these days someone will figure out a metric system for days, and it'll be easier to figure out what day is what . . .

    But, just as you have the right to interpret what you understand about the Bible any way you like, and practice it any way you like (ain't America great?), so does everyone else, including people who think the bible permits gay sex.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Look at Exodus 26:1. In God's commands to Moses
    Actually, Moses is another fictitious character who never existed, and anything attributed to him is just another fiction, and I'll tell you why . . .

    Exodus chapter 1 states Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
    9: And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:


    So, according the the story, there were plenty of Israelites in Egypt. Some versions say more than half of 'em were Israelites, but suffice it to say that there were lots of 'em, and they were working their balls off.

    And as the story unfolds as told in the New Living Bible, horrible plagues afflict the Egyptians; and their animals were killed over and over again:

    The first time their animals were wiped out:

    Exodus 9
    1 "Go back to Pharaoh," the LORD commanded Moses. "Tell him, `This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.
    2 If you continue to oppress them and refuse to let them go,
    3 the LORD will send a deadly plague to destroy your horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, and sheep.
    4 But the LORD will again make a distinction between the property of the Israelites and that of the Egyptians. Not a single one of Israel's livestock will die!' "
    5 The LORD announced that he would send the plague the very next day,
    6 and he did it, just as he had said. The next morning all the livestock of the Egyptians began to die, but the Israelites didn't lose a single animal from their flocks and herds.


    But a few days later, they had recovered enough to be killed again:

    Exodus 9
    13 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning. Go to Pharaoh and tell him, `The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so they can worship me.
    14 If you don't, I will send a plague that will really speak to you and your officials and all the Egyptian people. I will prove to you that there is no other God like me in all the earth.
    15 I could have killed you all by now. I could have attacked you with a plague that would have wiped you from the face of the earth.
    16 But I have let you live for this reason--that you might see my power and that my fame might spread throughout the earth.
    17 But you are still lording it over my people, and you refuse to let them go.
    18 So tomorrow at this time I will send a hailstorm worse than any in all of Egypt's history.
    19 Quick! Order your livestock and servants to come in from the fields. Every person or animal left outside will die beneath the hail.' "

    23 So Moses lifted his staff toward the sky, and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning struck the earth. The LORD sent a tremendous hailstorm against all the land of Egypt.
    24 Never in all the history of Egypt had there been a storm like that, with such severe hail and continuous lightning.
    25 It left all of Egypt in ruins. Everything left in the fields was destroyed--people, animals, and crops alike. Even all the trees were destroyed.


    And a few days later, the animals had again recovered from death to be killed one more time:

    Exodus 11
    4 So Moses announced to Pharaoh, "This is what the LORD says: About midnight I will pass through Egypt.
    5 All the firstborn sons will die in every family in Egypt, from the oldest son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the oldest son of his lowliest slave. Even the firstborn of the animals will die.
    Exodus 12
    29 And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.





    But the dead cattle recovered soon enough to be killed again a few days later:


    Exodus 9:25 25: And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

    Exodus 12: 29: And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
    ---------------------------------------

    I'd say that not even a god could kill animals over and over again, at least not without someone making a comment about the unusual phenomenon.

    But wait, there's more to this foolishness . . .

    As we've seen in the movie, all of the Israelites finally get to leave Egypt, carrying not only their own belongings, but a lot of the gold and silver they got from the Egyptians. Then the Egyptian Army was sent after them, and it was completely demolished by drowning in the Red Sea.

    Now, it seems to me that when a major country loses over half its population, a significant chunk of its wealth, and it's military forces, someone somewhere is going to comment upon this, and word is going to reach neighboring hostile countries who wouldn't waste time invading their weakened rival. But, there is no record of

    (1) a mass exodus of people from Egypt
    (2) strange plagues of frogs, rivers turning to blood, mass animal deaths, etc
    (3) the compleat destruction of the Egyptian army by drowning
    (4) hostile invaders taking advantage of Egypt's weakened condition.

    anywhere to be found in the historical records of the region (and archeologists have a good idea what happened day to day for the past several thousand years). This little work of fiction is found nowhere but in the pages of the Hebrew scriptures, and is much more likely to be a work of fiction than an accurate recounting of a historical event.

    Therefore, since there was no mass Exodus, since there was no destruction of the Egyptian Army, there probably wasn't a Moses who led Israelites anywhere.

    So all we've got is a work of fiction, a folk-tale not unlike the story of Paul Bunyon or Johnny Appleseed. It is certainly NOT the sort of thing people should be using to base important decisions on, as Christian Fundamentalists would have you beleive.

    Once again, the events mentioned concerning Moses never happened, and more than likely, Moses did not ever exist. Hence, the story is merely a work of fiction.

    --Tock

    There's more, but this ought to be enough to make you cry for your aunt's husband (uncle!), yes?

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    This is about Tock's post on Moses...I dont want to quote such a long passage. Ill make this as simple as I can for understanding.

    Verse 3:the hand of the Lord will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field-on your horses and donkeys and camels and on your cattle and sheep and goats.

    Verse 6: And the next day the Lord did it: All the livestock of the Egyptians died, but not one animal belonging to the Israelites died.

    So what was killed? All Egyptian livestock. Is a cat livestock? In fact it says what animals specifically in the verse.


    Verse 19: Give an order not to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field toa place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still ot in the field, and they will die.

    But Tock,there are no livestock anymore... thats what verse 6 says! But there are still livestock, there are the livestock belonging to the Israelites. And not only will the the hail kill the livestock in the field, but all animals found in the field. IE: my cat which was in the field in verse 6 but did not die because it wasnt livestock.

    So now we come to exodus 11. HOW in the world can God kill all of the animals and cattle AGAIN??? Impossible without someone seeing them all brought back to life!! But has all the animals and cattle been killed? No. All of the animals, that were not livestock, that survived belonging to the egyptians and all animals AND livestock belonging to israelites. Out of those, we have all of the animals that were brought in from the hailstorm and all of the livestock that belonged to the israelites during the first killing. So now we have this plague, what animals firstborn and livestock first born could be killed? The animals not livestock of course that belonged to the egyptians. Ok, I can see that, but it also says LIVESTOCK! Egyptians dont have livestock, they were all killed! True, all of the livestock owned by the egyptians were killed. But what of those livestock taken AFTER that plague? It wasnt an ongoing plague that any livestock that came into the hands of the egyptians would die. It said all at that time died. How could the egyptians have livestock so quick?? What about those belonging to the israelites? First born of all the egyptians animals died. Understand now Tock? So, now please provide more proof that Moses was a fictitious character.

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