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  1. #1
    hung-solo's Avatar
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    n. ireland question for bouncer

    well this question isnt directly asked to bouncer but i am sure he has his insight on this.. what is the deal with northern ireland with the rest of the u.k.? i never really understood the whole deal behind why they are seperated somewhat from everyone else. is it a religion or territory thing?

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    I'm off out training at the moment so I don't have time to cover 900yrs of British oppression in my country. Needless to say, Britain still occupies 6 counties of my country. But we'll set them free someday, hopefully peacefully because as one of our greatest Irishmen wrote... ''The fools, the fools, the fools. They have left us our fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves Ireland unfreeded shall never be at peace''..

    Sorry I can't go into it now, but I'll be back online later and we can discuss it.

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    Today conflict has three dimensions: British/Irish, North/South, and in the North, Protestant/Catholic. The issues at task between Britain and Ireland are constitutional, and religion is no longer a factor. Religion remains significant in North/South relations, because partition of the island in 1921 resulted in two confessional states, and Northern Protestants continue to fear and reject incorporation into a state in which an overwhelmingly Catholic ethos has sometimes been enshrined in law.

    So the North wants to stay with britian because Britian is protestant, unlike Ireland which is catholic, but the south wants the north to be incooperated into one Irish state.

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    thanx guys!

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Sri, again I'll answer later. Back from the pub this time and my typing skills ain't what they shouold be!!

  6. #6
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    Well you have to go back 800 years ago!

    Anyway here a short essay about the topic, have fun reading, it got me the fury of an English "so called Irish" catholic priest fury . **** you Father Calvin! Its the rought draft, cannot find the finished essay anymore.

    ________

    I can't believe the news today, I can't close my eyes, and make it go away
    How long...How long must we sing this song? How long? How long... Tonight...we can be as one Tonight... Broken bottles under children's feet and bodies strewn across a dead end street But I won't heed the battle call Puts my back up my back up against the wall (U2)

    “Sunday Bloody Sunday”, a song that the group U2 made famous, inspired by the events of a Sunday January 30th 1972 where during some disturbances at a civil rights march, shots were fired by the British Army parachutists. Thirteen demonstrators were killed and another thirteen were wounded, six killed were under 18 of age. The event of the now so famous Derry’s Bloody Sunday was only a reaction and consequences of eight hundred years of troubles in Ireland and now continuing in the counties of Ulster of Northern Ireland. That Sunday was only another event that occurred in the Irish history in the fight between the nationalists and loyalist sympathizers. Unfortunately the events of the second Irish bloody Sunday was the beginning of the modern Irish conflict which is referred as the “troubles”.

    In this paper, the Irish history from the period of the Normans evasion will be shortly covered because the conflict with the English power really emerged from that period. It will oversee why the conflict emerged and what happened. The paper will also cover the paramilitary groups such as republican and loyalist groups and a personal view and though about the conflict from what I perceived during my last stay in Northern Ireland in May and June of this year.

    In this paper, the reader will not have a great and detailed history of the Irish Troubles but a better understanding of why the fighting is occurring since so many years in Ulster and abroad between the Irish nationalist and the faithful to the British crowd. Finally the paper hope to dissipate the popular idea that the conflict is a religious nature between the Irish catholic and protestant which was tagged by the British BBC as a sectarian conflict which is totally untrue.


    The Irish history always was a tumultuous one with her skirmishes against foreign invaders such as the Vikings, the Normans and the British. The present day conflict in the six counties of Ulster which is regarded as Northern Ireland traced its roots further from the division of Ireland into the Irish Free State now the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland a province of the United Kingdom. The Emerald’s Isle was plagued with invasions from foreigners, at first the Vikings from Scandinavia came and colonized Ireland and established towns such as Cork or Dublivna now known as Dublin, but the Irish resistance was able to put an halt to it and the Vikings went back home and the rest was integrated into the Irish communities. In the year 1169 the first Norman arrived on Irish soil, led by a Knight with the nickname of “Strongbow”. The first Norman settlements were not as important and many settlers integrated to the Irish communities and became Irish. Ireland at the time was still in possession of a proper identity culturally, a particular national identity, own system of law, language, political and social structures. Following the Norman’s invasion settlements stayed on Irish soils for many years, until the English decided to expand their territory abroad. In a vulgar way, it can be argue that the Irish island was the first British colony. In the 1600’s the English as a part of their expansionist plan landed massively and Ireland was officially under the wing of his majesty’s territories. The Irish inhabitants fought with vigour the English presence, but soon they experienced the reaction of their invaders. With the Kingdom of England that expelled Catholicism, the tensions on the Irish became more apparent. The English banned Catholicism from Ireland, banned the local laws and customs, banned the Irish Gaelic language and all their rights were reduced. The reactions from the Irish natives was imminent the Irish royalty tried to replicated but they were shut down by the English forces. In reaction, the English sent more settlers in Ireland, mostly from Scotland they mostly settled in the north of Ireland which only has a mile of distance between the two country. By 1601, the Gaelic system was broken. The fight continued for many years but it was finally settled in July of 1690, when the forces of William of Orange, backed by the Pope won against the Irish and ended their resistance. The battle of the Boyne is celebrate every years in July by Orangemen in commemoration of the victory. After the catholic and Irish forces were defeated a few rebellions occurred. One short rebellion witnessed the birth of the republican movement with a Dublin’s protestant, name Wolfe Tone. Again all the rebellions were crushed but his ideas gave the settings for demands and better rights from the part of the British. It happened in 1840, with Daniel O’Connell and the Catholic anticipation which gave rights to the Catholic majority. By the end of the 19th century the republican movement was gaining popularity but exploded during the First World War triggered by imminent figure in Irish politics, Patrick Pearse a Dublin’s writer renown for his poems such as “Mise Eire” and Scottish union man James Connolly. On the 24th of April 1916, Patrick Pearse read at the Dublin General Post Office the “Poblacht na h-Eireann” the Provisional Government of Ireland. This was the beginning of the Easter rebellion which was again put down by the British Force who bombed the town of Dublin. Both Patrick Pearse and James Connolly were recognized guilty of treason and executed. The remaining rebels that were either imprisoned then later freed and the one that ran away continued the cause and brought another rebellion.
    The 1919-1922 rebellion was more successful, the Irish Citizen Army also known as the Irish Republican Army commanded by Michael Collins were able to achieve victory over the British Forces. The concept of “Home Rule” was established by the newly formed Irish government. After the First World War, civil war was eminent and between 1919 and 1921 the war of Independence raged between the British forces, protestant forces (black and tans) and the republicans. After the events of 1919-22 the Irish Free State was formed but retaining allegiance to the British Crown. Ireland was now divided between the North and South, the North was under British control as Northern Ireland. This comprised of the six counties of Ulster who were of a protestant distinct nature. The treaty between the provisional Irish government and Westminster was first perceived by some Irish as a first step in a free Ireland and this position was backed by his signer Michael Collins. Unfortunately as the Irish mentality is often divided on many issues, opposition to the treaty emerged and the anti-treaty side formed by members of the IRA and Sinn Fein engaged in a fight with the newly form Irish Army leading to the Irish Civil War. By 1923 the civil war was raging on until the anti-treaty forces gave up the fight. The years following the Irish Civil War were of great poverty for both the Irish Free State and the province of Northern Ireland. After the Second World War the Irish Free State was now independent and was a chartered as a republic, the Republic of Ireland. In the north, the six counties of Ulster remained under the British Crown. The period between the end of the Second World War and 1969, was a calm one. Unfortunately the economic situation was quite poor and the social, economic and cultural inequalities were quite divided in a profound gap. The situation remained relatively stable until the late 1960s. Unfortunately by the end of the 1960’s, the tensions between both groups increased as the catholic demands more rights and violence emerged between them. In august 1969 the British government decided to move troops into Northern-Ireland that are still based there today. At first when the army troops arrived the catholic welcomed them and were happy about their presence but unfortunately the situation turned rapidly. The Irish Republican Army went into a campaign of violence against the British Security Forces and this led to a increase of tensions and eventually to an all out open civil war. With the hostilities open, the loyalist paramilitaries groups went also on a violence campaign, such groups as the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and the Ulster Volunteers Force (UVF).

    The most popular paramilitary group from Northern Ireland is the Irish Republican Army. The IRA was initially created by Michael Collins and it became the paramilitary wing of Sinn Fein. The original IRA also known as the “Old IRA” was the original armed forces of Ireland. But after the independence of Ireland the name was changed. The name was changed to the Irish Defence Forces. The old IRA has roots the original Irish Armed Forces, Oglaidh na hEireann (The Volunteers of Ireland). With the Irish Free State agreement of 1922, some hardliners of the IRA refused to ceded the north to the British Empire. The IRA continued to exist after, but it was banned and outlawed during WWII because the support was quite high and their pro-German stance. The IRA went underground as a secret organization. With the years of its existence the IRA divided in many factions, that trend started at the end of the 1960’s. Now the Irish Republican Army is composed of the PIRA (Provisional Irish Republican Army), CIRA (Continuity Irish Republican Army), TIRA (True IRA), RIRA (Real Irish Republican).

    The Provisional Irish Republican Army also known as the Provos, was formed in 1969 as a clandestine armed wing of Sinn Fein. Their political and ideological motives are the full removal of all British Forces from Northern Ireland and the unification of Ireland.

    Continuity Irish Republican Army:
    CIRA was formed in 1994 as a splinter cell from the PIRA, they are under a cease-fire since September 1994.

    The Real Irish Republican Army was formed between February and March of 1998
    By a splinter member of the “Provos” of the name of Michael McKevitt husband of the vice-chair of the 32- County Sovereignty Movement, Bernadette Sands, sister of Bobby Sands leader of the H-Block hunger strike of 1981. The group was created as a reaction to the Mitchell’s principles of democracy and non-violence and oppose to the amendments of May 1998, Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution. So far they are officially the only IRA active and the most radicalized of them.

    On the nationalist side another paramilitary organization exist, it was created as an alternative to the IRA. The INLA, the Irish National Liberation Army.

    The Loyalists paramilitaries does have more groups, the oldest one were created as a reaction to the IRA in the civil war and sponsored by the British Army, they had the same faith as the IRA and emerged quite abruptly during the troubles against anyone who against their causes. Today there more Loyalist groups and subgroups than the nationalists. The Ulster Volunteers Force (UVF), Ulster Defence Force (UDF), Ulster Defence Association (UDA), the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF), Ulster Youth Militants (UYM), the Young Apprentice, the Red Hand Commando a very radical loyalist group, and even some orange hall does have armed cells. Unfortunately as both side are quite willing to use violence for the fight in the name of their causes.

    In 1969, severe riots occurred in Belfast, Londonderry and in other cities, the response from the British government was to send troops to stabilize the situation.
    As it was mentioned earlier the arrival of the British Army was quite welcome by the catholic community as they thought they could protect them until the troubles get settled.
    The majority of the protestant community eagerly welcome the troops has they perceived them as the protector of protestant interests in the region. Unfortunately the situation degraded quite rapidly as the actions by nationalists against British Personnel increase, protest about civil rights emerged from all over the Northern Ireland territory and direct reply actions was committed against catholic or nationalist member by the loyalist groups. The internment and detection without any proofs and only based on suspicions went very harshly against the catholic and nationalist community. The internment period as the historians refer to, ceased in 1975. After the events of the Bloody Sunday, Westminster decided to send more troops, this had for consequences an increase of actions committed by republicans and an increase of actions committed by the loyalist. The crackdown on republicans members increased and full hostilities opened in part of some cities between republicans and British Forces. The massive searches and warrant emitted against nationalist houses and the actions committed by the British turned the catholic opinions radically.

    With the problems increasing, the British government decided to conduct direct rule over Northern Ireland. This was introduced at the British parliament by Prime-Minister Ted Heath in 1972. The period of the 1970’s really contributed to more problems to the troubles, the 1970’s decided what path the conflict would take, the 1970’s ended with the imprisonment of many figurehead of the IRA. The 1970’s was also victim of the expansion of the conflict into the South where the Monaghan and Dublin bombing occurred, killing many innocent bystanders, they were committed by the loyalist UDF.
    The beginning of the 1980’s was very crucial and Northern Ireland was in the news all around the world as IRA and INLA member went on a hunger strike at the H-Block cells at the Maze’s prison. The leader of the hunger strike was IRA member Bobby Sands which was the first to die on May 5th 1981, he was the first of 10 men to die on hunger strike. The anniversary of the dead was commemorated all over Northern Ireland last may as the 20th anniversary.

    The 1980’s witness many events very crucial in the Northern Irish troubles, the first was the Anglo-Irish agreement. The agreement was signed between the government of the Republic of Ireland, of Northern Ireland and United-Kingdom. It prescribed that the situation of Northern Ireland should only change by the demand of its citizens. It also gave concessions to the Irish Republic who had a say toward the North. This agreement triggered a rage of loyalist terrorist actions that led to another cycle of violence.
    The violence of the 80’s led to the first settlement of the peace process who was undermined often by actions of the IRA and loyalists. But the 1990’s saw the real conclusion of the peace process. The supports for the peace process was coming from Ireland, Northern Ireland the UK and abroad such as the USA. The first movement committed to the process was granted by political groups such as Sinn Fein, the Unionist party and the various paramilitary forces. One of the major requirement for the peace process was the ceasefire, that was unfortunately only committed by the IRA and INLA, this gave reasons for many splinter groups to leave the IRA. In April of 1998 the Good Friday Agreement was signed. The principles of the agreement was that; First, Northern Ireland’s future constitutional status was to be in the hands of its citizens. Second, if the people of Ireland, north and south, wanted a united Ireland, they could have one by voting for it. Third, Northern Ireland’s current constitutional position would remain within the United Kingdom. Fourth, Northern Ireland’s citizens would have the right to ‘identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both.’ Fifth, the Irish state would drop its territorial claim on Northern Ireland and instead define the Irish nation in terms of people rather than land. The consent principle would be built into the Irish constitution.
    Since, the good Friday agreement, the cycle of violence slowed down, once in a while attack occurs either by the IRA or loyalist sides, but their activities really slowed down.
    The actions of the RIRA, at Armagh endangered the peace process but it fortunately did not. Today it seems that the old rivalry between the two communities is bringing out more tensions between the two groups such as the Orangemen parade, the republican parade and everything they represents. The blockade of roads by protestants citizens against catholic to prevent them to go to school, the attack are more personal and more sectarianism seem to be more common today. The last standout by the IRA was the bombing of the MI6 offices. In March of this year McKevitt founder of the RIRA was arrested by the Irish police, this seemed to have brought down and reduce the vigour of the radicals.
    The conflict in Northern Ireland seems to have calmed down since a couple of years but it is only an hypocrite statement. Since the Good Friday Agreement the nationalist side made important concessions for the peace in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, during the peace talks only one side is pointed and this is the Irish Republican Army, especially the Provisional IRA (PIRA) which is known to be the main republican group. Unfortunately, the talks never look at the loyalist paramilitaries groups which are more in numbers and created more killings and destruction than the main republican and nationalist groups. When I was in Ireland and Northern Ireland last summer I was shocked by the lack of interests by the people of the Irish Republic, which seem that they didn’t know what is going on, only ninety miles from their capital Dublin. During my last visit in Belfast, a city police station was victim of a mortar bomb attack. The tensions in the city was quite relaxed, compared to the previous years such as the 1970 and 1980’s.
    Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers were going down their armour cars and talk to the people in the street, a rare view in accordance with the locals. In Belfast the arguments of both the Catholics and Protestants communities were totally different.
    In catholic and republican areas of Belfast such as West Belfast, the arguments where that peace would never occur until a unified Ireland. They did believed both communities could live and work together but not until that the six counties of Ulster are unified into the republic. The views is totally different in the loyalist and protestants areas, in hardcore loyalist areas the view is pretty the same as the nationalist, instead they believe that Northern Ireland should stay and remain loyal to the English Crown, and the popular sign on the wall shout “No Surrender, Ulster will always remain British”.
    In other protestant areas the views is more peaceful and people are looking for peace because they are tired of the troubles and think a settlement should occur and both parties should stop their activities. In other towns and cities the situation is about the same, except in Derry or Londonderry depending where you stand to the walls. The tensions between both communities stands more than the troubles itself but also in the history of Ulster and the role Derry played. The walls of the city of Londonderry is of an extreme symbolism in both nationalist and loyalist sides, where centuries ago the inside walls was the pillar of the protestant and crown forces, now inside the same walls catholic nationalist lives there and are surrounded by the loyalist neighbourhoods. In other areas such as Armagh, few other people are really tired of the troubles and had their tolls, especially in Armagh where the bombing of the Real IRA created many casualties in 1998. That bombing combined by the PIRA and RIRA changed many Catholics minds when in fact the bombing killed mostly all Catholics residents. Unfortunately both the British Security Forces and Republican ranks throw the ball to the other camps saying it is their own fault.

    Personally, I get very insulted when people mention the Northern Irish conflict as a religious one. It is too easy to categorized the two groups between two Christians groups. As the BBC quoted the conflict as a sectarian one but it is far from the truth, the republican movement was started by protestant men and both Catholic and protestant men fought together. In Derry I’ve met IRA member who were of Protestant decent and they joined the cause for ideological, ethnic and politics reasons not religious one. Of course often attacks occurs against Catholics schools and churches but only because they are symbols as the majority of the republicans are catholic.

    Not only the conflict in Northern Ireland bring tensions between the two sides the Protestant and Catholics and even created division between their own groups. Protestant divisions in Loyalist groups often lead to internal war between members of paramilitaries groups. As for the republican side it explain why there six types of IRA and splinters groups from the main group and even a totally different group the INLA (Irish National Liberation Army). Also a consequence that as very deep impact on both communities is that the paramilitaries groups are involved in the drug trafficking to finance their activities. Often it lead to war between the groups not because of their original mandate but because they are trying to control the market, another naughty side effects of the troubles. Concluding my personal notes about Northern Ireland and the troubles, I must confess even if I tend and incline to the republican side that the conflict is not soon to end. In both sides, the big question mark is that does they really want to end the hostilities. Concessions was made by the PIRA to appease tensions and realize a peace progress, unfortunately nothing is made by the loyalist sides. For many, they know nothing more than fighting and the possible thoughts of a durable peace seem to scare them. Also, the radicals element cannot let and refuse themselves any concessions at all to anyone. But how can we speak of peace when all across protestant areas, mural shout loudly Ulster Will Always Remain British by Loyalist Youth Movement such as the Ulster Youth Militants (a Youth section of the Ulster Defence Association, UDA).
    The conflict brought so much paranoia and stress to both communities that walking at night in either West Belfast or next to Derry’s walls is very dangerous at night. This summer two Australian students were severely beaten while walking in West Belfast because no one knew were they were and they were not welcome. Personally I can comment on it as I experienced a similar event in Derry. As I was invited in an IRA owned pub, the locals were quite hostile to a new face in the volunteer pub. I was practically involved in a fight with young IRA members because he didn’t know who I where, the situation calmed down after I gave 10 pounds to the local Sinn Fein office and I sang some republican songs, then I was a “good man”. Even in Dublin, the two weeks I spent there, the scene of the Dublin bombing was on my way “home” everyday, and every time I paused to the scene and wondered why? As I left Ireland on the eve of the beginning of the Orangemen walks, the tensions and fears was beginning to mount.
    Just as I got home, the riots exploded in Belfast, for only minor things but for two communities that had difficult past a single thing can mean a big explosion of violence.

    In conclusion, the conflict of Northern Ireland referred as the troubles is not soon to be solved. 800 years of hatred by the catholic community is not soon to be erase. The tensions between the two communities and their “freedom fighters” is so entrenched that it always goes in cycle. A chain of reactions that was triggered in the 1960’s.
    The Irish mentality that does not give up and does not forget easily makes it difficult to any real and potential settlements of the conflicts. The peace process and the British authorities only point a finger to the republicans sides never asking concessions to the loyalists paramilitaries and protestant communities. The protestant community is the most armed community in Europe, why is that when normally on the mainland of the UK, weapons are very restricted. The troubles are not yet to be end when no real entente is possible between all sides and real concessions is made by the unionist and loyalists.
    The future of Northern Ireland is still very cloudy and only one event could spark a great chain reactions of mass violence. So far more than 3600 peoples were killed in the troubles, mostly civilians and the death tolls is still going to increase as nothing is really made. Fortunately for many Northern Irish the future seems to be brighter and they can work and live together and deal with their past. But for many other they cannot stand the history and they can’t give out any terrains to the other side because it is an act of weakness. As many murals say all across Ulster “ No consent, no surrender” it is quite hard to realize a resting peace when these murals are created by both side.
    Unfortunately, I must conclude that the calm period Northern Ireland is now, is only a short one until major changes occurs, as mentality changes possible change could occurs, unfortunately in both Loyalist and republicans areas mentality doesn’t change and that conflict is led by radicals now.



    ÓGlaigh na hÉireann, Tíocfaidh ár lá

    3Vandoo
    Last edited by 3Vandoo; 12-10-2004 at 12:36 AM.

  7. #7
    3Vandoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    Today conflict has three dimensions: British/Irish, North/South, and in the North, Protestant/Catholic. The issues at task between Britain and Ireland are constitutional, and religion is no longer a factor. Religion remains significant in North/South relations, because partition of the island in 1921 resulted in two confessional states, and Northern Protestants continue to fear and reject incorporation into a state in which an overwhelmingly Catholic ethos has sometimes been enshrined in law.

    So the North wants to stay with britian because Britian is protestant, unlike Ireland which is catholic, but the south wants the north to be incooperated into one Irish state.

    No!

    In 1922 when the British proposed to keep the Six counties they did it because a majority of "loyalists" where in Ulster. But, there were some Catholic loyalist as they are protestant nationalist and republican, and i know a few IRA member who are protestants. The religion dogma is pure bull**** but it is an ethnic conflict. Religion is too easy to separate both groups, unfortunately when you have some "club" like the Orange Order promoting Anti-catholics sentiments it doesnt help.

    A religious conflict? We can say it plays about 10% of the "troubles".
    Unfortunately it is too easy to identoify the republicans as catholics and loyalist as protestant, the truth is that the nationalist side is composed of about 70-75% Catholics and 30% protestants. As for the loyalist it is 99.9% protestants, but now we must know WHAT types of protestants, because there is some types of protestant churches that are pro-republicans.
    Oh God bless the twist of Ulster!

    So, it is a fight betweem Ulster-Scots and Irish in its pure expression.

    **** scottish traitors!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails n. ireland question for bouncer-republicanmemorialriplads_c.jpg   n. ireland question for bouncer-ira2.jpg  
    Last edited by 3Vandoo; 12-10-2004 at 12:49 AM.

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    bouncer da kat molesta! where are ya laddie

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    I'm here, but no one has asked me any questions they need cleared up.

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    I'm 1/2 Irish (from Cork)....and although I'd like the POMs out of Ireland, the Irish claim to the land amounts to it being attached to the rest of Ireland. Like...the Irish claim on the land is that it *used to be ours, and is still attached to the main country.

    Mexico has roughly the same claim to parts of Texas, California, and New Mexico, yet I would not argue that the US should give it back to them.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    I'm 1/2 Irish (from Cork)....and although I'd like the POMs out of Ireland, the Irish claim to the land amounts to it being attached to the rest of Ireland. Like...the Irish claim on the land is that it *used to be ours, and is still attached to the main country.

    Mexico has roughly the same claim to parts of Texas, California, and New Mexico, yet I would not argue that the US should give it back to them.
    Mexico isn't an Island nation. We are. In the words of a song "The sea'o, the sea'o, all loyal and green long may it stay between England and me, its a sure guarentee that some hour we'll be free, thank God we're surrounded by water''.


    Of course we have a peace process at the moment, but its never going to be a surrender. The war can always start again. Actually, the ceasefire probably came at the wrong time really. Considering Englands commitment to Iraq this would have been the ideal time to step up operations against an over stretched enemy. We've a long history of making gains at Englands expense.

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    Frankly, the time to boot the POM's out of Ireland was during the Axis attack on England in WWII. If we want to get nasty about it...

    Ireland being an island doesn't make it's claim to ge back the northern 6 counties any stronger than Mexico's, except for (possibly) in an aesthetic sense.

    Interestingly, the Irish National Rugby team draws from all counties, even the Northern ones....i.e. in rugby, Ireland is already considered one country again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Frankly, the time to boot the POM's out of Ireland was during the Axis attack on England in WWII. If we want to get nasty about it...

    Ireland being an island doesn't make it's claim to ge back the northern 6 counties any stronger than Mexico's, except for (possibly) in an aesthetic sense.

    Interestingly, the Irish National Rugby team draws from all counties, even the Northern ones....i.e. in rugby, Ireland is already considered one country again.

    Only Aussies refer to Brits as POM's I believe.

    When we beat them in the war of independence one of the conditions of the ceasefire was something called the boundaries commission (this led to our civil war). Without going indept into Irish history basically the Brits withdrew to the 6 counties with the promise to further withdraw as towns and villages went catholic. The border would have shrunk because catholics have more children than protestants (traditionally). the Brits renaged on this promise and continued to occupy 6 counties of Ulster.

    Hooker I suggest you talk to your Cork family regarding your feelings on a united 32 county Ireland, or not, whatever the case may be.

    Like I left you with the song, I'll leave you with this..

    ''the fools, the fools, the fools they have left us our fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfreed shall NEVER be at peace''.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Only Aussies refer to Brits as POM's I believe.

    .
    I lived in New Zealand for the better part of 2 years. And that's what we called them...


    Hooker I suggest you talk to your Cork family regarding your feelings on a united 32 county Ireland, or not, whatever the case may be.
    My family's opinions aren't really relevant here...and I've been to Ireland and spent a decent amount of time visiting with a friend who still lives there (in Castle Troy).


    Because my family is passionate about something doesn't mean that it's morally correct.

    I want a 32 county Ireland and the POM's out of there...but...it isn't morally supportable, per se....

    Not any more so than Mexico's claim to retake most of the Southern US of A...in fat, probably less so....

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Not any more so than Mexico's claim to retake most of the Southern US of A...in fat, probably less so....
    Why do you say that?.

    Celts have a history which dwarfs anything American or Mexico can even hope to call a history. We had high kings and a language amoung other things when the British were still wearing rabit furs and sh*tting in caves. We have ALWAYS had a clearly defined border, unlike Mexico, its called a coast. We have always been an independent people. We have NEVER accepted our oppressors, both Vikings and Anglo-Saxons. For 800 years Britain tried to quell our struggle for freedom, ask you relations about their 'Penal laws', ask them about the British imposed famine from 1846-1848 which killed over 8 million Irish people, while our river's and lakes were over stocked with fish and British landlords keep our land in bondage. Ask them about 'The Black & Tans', ask them to tell you about Catholic civil rights marches in Northern Ireland as recent as 1970's and 'Bloody Sunday'. Oh yea, and tell them the land doesn't belong to us.

    Hooker, your claim to be Irish is indeed very, very shallow.

  16. #16
    perfectbeast2001's Avatar
    perfectbeast2001 is offline "king of free stuff" / Retired
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    Im from UK. I love Ireland and i really dont care who controls northern ireland. I just think its a shame that whenever i have been to ireland or spoken to the irish i am slagged off for the things the english did years ago!! Let it go!! All our government is ****e anyway i doubt it would make any difference these days who ran what, they all have the same policies anyway!!

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    People who have had their land taken by force all over the world have the same right/claim to get it back, whether it's an island or not.

    It's lame to "question" my being "Irish" because I recognize that fact. Lame, insulting, and ignorant.

    And my knowledge of Irish history starts at Cuthda de Dadanan after him and the early Celts(I forget the proper spelling for Cuthda right now...thats close though), and continues on through the troubles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER

    . Considering Englands commitment to Iraq this would have been the ideal time to step up operations against an over stretched enemy. We've a long history of making gains at Englands expense.

    Similar Gains are also made at America's expense ( I am, remember, an American first and foremost...even though my fathers family is from Cork) and those gains are made the worlds expense in general...the IRA and Provos (P-IRA) have extensive ties to Colombian Terorists, as well as Middle Eastern Terrorists:


    August 21, 2002, 9:00 a.m.http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...feld082102.asp

    IRA + PLO =Terror

    By Rachel Ehrenfeld

    Following the Israeli incursion into Jenin earlier this year, Paul Collinson, a British explosives expert working with the Red Cross, identified hundreds of explosive devices found there and noted that "the pipe bombs I found in Jenin are exact replicas of ones I found in Northern Ireland." The Daily Telegraph quoted a U.S. government official as saying in response: "If there was clear and convincing evidence that the IRA has been training Palestinians in bomb- making techniques, then we are facing a grave and grievous situation for the IRA ‹ it would surely lead to a reassessment of whether the IRA should be put on the designated list of terrorist organizations with a global reach."

    The incident came on the heels of a shooting spree of ten Israelis with a bolt-action rifle, perpetrated by a single sniper who left his rifle behind. This technique was also identified as a Irish Republican Army (IRA) trademark.

    But the IRA's connections are not limited to the Middle East or the Palestinians. On April 24, 2001, the House of Representatives Committee on International Relations published the findings of its investigation into IRA activities in Colombia. Their report clearly demonstrated a longstanding connection with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), mentioned at least 15 more IRA terrorists who have been traveling in and out of Colombia since 1998, and estimated that the IRA had received at least $2 million in drug proceeds for training members of FARC.
    A more recent report, published in May by the Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress, identified Hezbollah, Hamas, and a number of other Middle Eastern terrorist organizations as active in Colombia and the Triborder
    Region (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Venezuela).

    Last week, President Alvero Uribe declared a state of emergency in Colombia as a result of mortar attack by FARC terrorists during his inauguration. This attack killed 21 people and injured 60 more, and was followed by further attacks resulting in more than 100 people dead. Colombian law-enforcement sources have confirmed that the bombing techniques used by FARC are identical to those used by the Irish Republican Army.

    The IRA/FARC connection was first made public on August 11, 2001, following the arrest in Bogota of two IRA explosives and urban-warfare experts and of a representative of Sinn Fein (the IRA's political wing) who was known to be stationed in Cuba and on the payroll of the Cuban Communist party. The three had explosive traces on their clothes and luggage, but claimed they were in Colombia to advise the FARC on their "peace talks" with the government. The false travel documents they carried, however, raised doubts about their peaceful intentions. Since then, the violent attacks of the FARC have escalated, at a cost of hundreds of lives ‹ of civilians as well as military personnel.

    President Uribe's decision to rid Colombia of the FARC follows years of attempts by previous governments to appease the narco-terrorists. The "Land for Peace" initiative ‹ handing over almost half the country to the FARC in order to bring them to the negotiating table ‹ was encouraged by both the European Union and the Clinton administration. The EU went as far as to invite FARC terrorists to Europe and send them diplomatic delegations, thus giving them legitimacy and political power. The more the former Colombian government and the Europeans appeased the terrorists, the bolder the terrorists became. Similar appeasement towards Palestinian terrorists groups, including financial aid and "Land for Peace" initiative, by the EU and the Clinton administration, had similar disastrous effect in the Middle East.

    The Department of State for many years has designated the FARC as a foreign terrorist organization. Before 9/11, U.S.officials were quoted as calling it "the most dangerous international terrorist group based in the Western Hemisphere." Only in late June -- and over French and Swedish objections -- did the EU add FARC to its terrorist list, still omitting the second-largest narco-terrorist groups, the Ejercito de Liberacion Nacional (ELN) and Hezbollah.

    Students of terrorism can easily trace the IRA's connections to the PLO and its numerous factions back to the 1970s and 1980s, when IRA and PLO operatives trained together in Libya and the Bekaa Valley. Today, IRA involvement is ongoing in Colombia, where al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad factions -- to name a few -- are engaged in illegal arms and drug trafficking and money-laundering. Recent revelations about al Qaeda training methods has been also identified as carrying some of the IRA's trademarks. If the EU and the Bush administration would unify their terrorist lists with "global reach" to include all terrorist organizations -- including the IRA, Hezbollah, all Palestinian terror organizations, and the ELN ‹ we might then have a better chance to win the war on terrorism.

  19. #19
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Well Hooker my intention was never to be insulting to anyone here, however you should also realise how insulting what you said could be to me also. You should have expected a reaction, and I held back too

    Maybe its best to drop it.

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    I don't see how it's insulting to say that the Irish have no more claim to get their land back than any people who have had their land taken; certainly the American Indians, Mexicans, etc...would not agree that Ireland has a unique and overriding claim because it's an island. Being an island is not an important fact with regards to having that moral claim (or any moral claim), other than it provides clear boundries.

    As I said, I would like the English out of Northern Ireland, but as I said, thats not because the Irish (which my claim to be a member of is apparently shallow due to my opinions) have a moral right to the land over and above any other group who has had land taken away.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfectbeast2001
    Im from UK. I love Ireland and i really dont care who controls northern ireland. I just think its a shame that whenever i have been to ireland or spoken to the irish i am slagged off for the things the english did years ago!! Let it go!! All our government is ****e anyway i doubt it would make any difference these days who ran what, they all have the same policies anyway!!

    I think alot of that slagging is good natured stuff!. Like whenever I've been to England and my English mates slag me off for being the 'thick Paddy', that sort of thing. As regards running Northern Ireland is concerned. In the short term a power sharing government is the way to help resolve matters untill a final British withdrawal. But I'm afraid that Englans will do what its done throughout its history. They'll set a date on withdrawal, give minimal assistance to help the warring factions resolve their difference's and withdraw, leaving a divoided country and civil war in their wake.

    I truely believe we'll fight another civil war in my life time. I'd just rather see it while I'm in the military and not my children or grandchildren.

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    England will not be able to hold on to Northern Ireland forever. America will, however, hold on to the land we took from the Mexicans and Native Americans...forever.

    And as for the Arawak Indians (the people who greeted Christopher Colombus)...they will never get their land back (the island now known as Dominica).

    They were all killed. They had an island too, you know...

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    And as for the Arawak Indians (the people who greeted Christopher Colombus)...they will never get their land back (the island now known as Dominica).

    They were all killed. They had an island too, you know...
    As you said, they were all killed. England tried the same, indeed during our famine (in which the population of Ireland fell from 10million to 1.5million) the Dean of St.Patricks Catheral, the head of the Protestant church in Ireland at the time suggested that Irish babies should be eaten as a delicacy.

  24. #24
    decadbal's Avatar
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    God Bless the Irish.. nothing can overcome ppl like we are.. and im a desendant baby..lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    the Dean of St.Patricks Catheral, the head of the Protestant church in Ireland at the time suggested that Irish babies should be eaten as a delicacy.
    Jonathan Swift was the Dean of St.Patrick's Cathedral?

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Jonathan Swift was the Dean of St.Patrick's Cathedral?

    Yes, the author of Gullivers travels. It was Swift who suggested Irish babies should be eaten as a delicacy.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Yes, the author of Gullivers travels. It was Swift who suggested Irish babies should be eaten as a delicacy.
    . Just like the Chilis commercial, I want my Baby-back-baby-back-baby-back ribs!

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