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  1. #1
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    Proof of Exodus in the bible.

    Im doing some research. In the mean time, check out the discovery channel show today.

    the Discovery Channel will show Rameses: Wrath of God or Man?, in which a team of archeologists led by professor Kent Weeks will investigate the tomb of the princes of Rameses II, who is believed to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus. One of the findings to be shown on the program is the skull of Amun-her-khepeshef, whom Weeks identifies as the firstborn son of Rameses II. If the identification is correct, could archeology show that the tenth plague killed the Pharaoh's firstborn son?


    Check your local listings.

  2. #2
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    THis is a reshowing late night tonight. It first aired last sunday. You could either watch it if you like, or do some web searching if youd prefer...

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    I'm too cheap to pay for cable. It'd be different if they gave ya commercial-free viewing, but they don't.

    Anyway, let me know when you have proof of the Bible's Exodus story, where over half the population left with lots of Egyptian gold & silver, and where the military was decimated by drowning.

    -Tock

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    I may not find any proof. I just havnt looked into it before. If I dont though, Ill still believe it. Same with a lot of things in the bible. first being the garden of eden. No proof, but I still believe in it. I agree with cable. I only pay 9.99 for the basic stuff. But I get good channels surprisingly... Discovery health, national geographic, comedy central, mtv, etc etc.... for 10 bucks. later.

  5. #5
    Tock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I may not find any proof. I just havnt looked into it before. If I dont though, Ill still believe it. Same with a lot of things in the bible. first being the garden of eden. No proof, but I still believe in it.


    Archeologists can give us fairly detailed information on the day-to-day affairs of Egyptians and their neighbors in that time period (1500 BC), and certainly if something as big as a mass emigration and crushing military defeat had happened, then someone somewhere would have made a note of it; they had scribes making notes of everything else, why not stuff like this?

    I think that the conspicious absence of corroborating historical evidence relating to these events should be more than enough to create doubt in your mind. Next time someone tells you that Moses actually lived and led over half the population of Egypt out of the country while crushing their army, I think you should ask for reasons why he thinks these things are so.
    IMHO, simply wishing that the Exodus story is true won't make it true. Neither will "having faith." I guarantee ya, that if there was substantiation of this bible story, Jerry Falwell and his ilk would make sure you knew about it. The plain truth is, though, that it's just a Hebrew folk tale, and the absence of corroborating archeological evidence confirms that it's just a folk tale.

    This is one of those dangling theads on which you can pull and pull and cause the entire framework of fundamentalism to unravel, which freaks out people addicted to this disease of the intellect. However, there's no need to panic, because instead of giving up your religion, you could always just exchange your "Bible as Fact" approach for a "Bible as Tradition" approach, and go from there, like lots of other folks do.

    Anyway, my guess is that it would be worth your while to pursue this point.
    Good luck . . .

    -Tock

  6. #6
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    Tock, oh Tock. Always so Tockish!lol Anyway I was listening to the radio this morning and the question was if you could ask God one question what would it be?

    One guy called in and said he'd ask why didn't you give us more proof of your existance?

    A following caller had a pretty good response Gods answer may be why didn't you believe the evidence that I gave to you?

    Now I'm not hijacking this thread but it could be as little as a grain of sand or as big as a Pyramid in Egypt. Proof is in where you put your trust in. Where you invest your faith in, and accountability in.

  7. #7
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    That caller had a good answer 1victor.

    Tock, absence of corroborating historical evidence relating to exodus wont create doubt in my mind. Absense of evidence is not evidence disproving. If there was evidence DISPROVING, then you may be able to win me over a little...but lack of evidence doesnt prove anything to me when I study something.

  8. #8
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    what would you considier evidence disproving it??

    The burden of proof is upon the one making the claims. If I claim there was once(like 60 million years ago) pink elephants in the mountains of pakistan how could you possibly disprove that?

    Not bashing your religion. I just dont understand how you can have faith in a book that isnt proven in any way but still claims it has all the answeres....

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    Johan 100 years ago their was no proof at all that any of the stories in the Bible were true now many are Proven facts. As far as the burden of proof thing that was what that persons answer was. For example someone if someone like your parent tells you something is their word good enough or do you need written documents, eyewitness accounts, scientific prrof to believe them? Or do you take their word on faith that they are telling you the truth. (we are talking about parents but insert any person that you know has impeccable integrity) I would assume that you would believe them on their word, that would be enough proof for you.

    The same principle applies to God, how much proof do you need? Those pictures of the galaxy that you posted once were proof enough for me let alone the stories that HAVE been proven in the Bible. So would it take a grain of sand or a personal visit from God for you to believe?

    The funny thing is that man has the ability to more than likely make a computer large enough to catalogue every human being on this planet. With sattelite technology we could then potentially track each and every one. And with one of chip implants we could get heart rates , bllod pressure , temp etc of each person.

    Do you believe that the creator of this universe is incapable of keeping track of all of his children? If we can make that computer and He made us He can surely do that and much, much more.

  10. #10
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    Talking

    Tock I seeeeeee you! Be nice to me!

  11. #11
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    What would make me belive. That is a intriguing question. I dont know realy....

    Some kind of miracle I guess. Something way out of the ordinary.

    If I with my own eyes saw a person split a ocean, if I saw a man heal people and walk on water and I could for sure know its not a trick. If a angel came down to me. Something along those lines. If those things could happen so often 2000+ years ago then they surely could happen now. But it doesnt seem like it happens anymore. Does that mean god has abandoned his creation or does it mean the people back then where full of **** Or totaly misjudged what they saw.

    If you comit a sin and the lightning strikes your house the same night is that a sign from god or conicidens. How would they have inturpited that 2000 years ago? The people that wrote the bibel. How can we belive they are honest. I can trust a friend or family because I know them personaly. I know there character and what they have done in life. But I cant trust writers long dead since I know NOTHING about them or what kind of people they are. I dont know if they had anything to gain or lose from writing what they did.

  12. #12
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    Johan I understand where you are coming from, it's up ther with what's the meaning of life. Some things are entirely taken on faith, relgion and otherwise. I see nonbelievers points and I hear them I was one for many. many years. I am not blinded by my religion.

  13. #13
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    Tock waiting is killing me! But CSI is coming on I am an addict gotta run!

  14. #14
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    1victor if its not to personal can you share to us what made you belive??

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Tock, absence of corroborating historical evidence relating to exodus wont create doubt in my mind.

    Well, then what about the folks who claim that George Bush, the Queen of England and their relatives are all shape-shifting lizards (www.davidicke.com) ? Would you say that lack of corroborating evidence wouldn't create doubts in your mind about such a thing?
    Or how about the folks who say they have a machine that can detect UFOs and ghosts (ufo51.com and www.abateelectronics.com)? Would you say that their claims can be considered reasonable, even if they cannot demonstrate that their machines do not work? Or how about the claims of TV evangelist Peter Popoff (www.peterpopoff.org)? What do you make of his claims that God performs miracle healings in his revival meetings, or would you suspect that he was actually a fraud, using secret radio transmitters, as these folks allege --

    http://www.cephasministry.com/tongue...oc_popoff.html
    http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-39-17Mhz.htm
    http://healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Popoff/

    . . . hmmm?


    How do you know that your committment to Fundamentalism is not causing you to delude yourself? Yah, beating back your honest doubts is one surefire way to hold on to your current opinion, which means you don't "backslide" and falling out of favor with your orthodox friends.

    It seems to me that you don't want to look this situation square in the eye and admit, "Well, slap me silly, but this time Tock is right; the historical corroboration for the Exodus story is conspicuously absent, so maybe the Bible story is not as accurate a historical record as I thought." I don't blame ya . . . Fundamentalism is a disease of the intellect; it sustains itself through self-delusion, refusal to accept objective fact, and allegience to authority and orthodoxy, not to mention threats of "eternal punishment" for disobedience. But its up to you whether or not you're gonna live by what you know is true, or what theologians tell you is true.

    All I can say is,

    Good luck,

    --Tock

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Tock I seeeeeee you! Be nice to me!

    Ya, I'm watching a program on PBS as I type this . . . something about "The Perricone Prescription." He's talking about how to handle stuff like estrogen and cortisol through nutrition and supplements. I'm not catching much of what he's saying, but it sounds pretty interesting, so I think I'll order his book from Amazon . . . .

    And what's this, "Be nice to me!" I'm always nice to you . . . you realize, don't you, that you're among my favorites, don't you?

    --Tock

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    Johan I will tomorrow, it will take alot of time.The one key factor is accountablity. I did not want to be accountable to anyone or anything for my decisions and choices in my earlier life and lived it to the hilt. Not believing in God was and is a way to avaid accountability IMO. I will share tomorrow if anyone cares.

  18. #18
    Tock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    What would make me belive
    . . .
    If I with my own eyes saw a person split a ocean, if I saw a man heal people and walk on water and I could for sure know its not a trick. If a angel came down to me. Something along those lines.

    How about if you saw the face of the Virgin Mary on a cheese sandwich?
    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/ebay.sandwich.ap/
    --Tock

  19. #19
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    Thanks Tock, I know this is a touchy subject but you are never mean . I just fear the Wrath of the Great Tock! And I do respect your opinions.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    How about if you saw the face of the Virgin Mary on a cheese sandwich?
    http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/ebay.sandwich.ap/
    --Tock
    Holy **** now Im a beliver

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Johan 100 years ago their was no proof at all that any of the stories in the Bible were true now many are Proven facts.
    Some things, like lost cities, have been found, but so what?
    Everything else is still unproven, like the notion that Jesus floated up into the stratosphere in the direction of Heaven without dying (again) of asphyation, and travelled out past Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, and continuing onward from Pluto, where he's now about 2000 light years away (assuming he's moving at the speed of light), but still in the Milky Way Galaxy, as it's 150,000 light years across . . .
    And if you read the 4 Gospels, you will find 5 different accounts of the resurrection story, so you'll have to first figure out which one is the accurate one, then try and prove it -- and that isn't gonna happen.
    And who's gonna prove that Paul (later known as the Apostle Paul) actually fell off his horse and had a vision of Jesus, or if we should beleive the more beleivable account of his traveling companions who said that all they saw was an obsessive Christian-Hating Jew fall off his horse and act like a delusional epileptic.






    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    if someone like your parent tells you something is their word good enough or do you need written documents, eyewitness accounts, scientific prrof to believe them? Or do you take their word on faith that they are telling you the truth.
    Lots of old fogies think they know what they're talking about when they really don't know diddly squat. IF they did know how to initiate and sustain healthy relationships, the US divorce rate wouldn't be 50%, there wouldn't be any child abuse or neglect, courts wouldn't be full of lawsuits, and we'd have a lot more patient phD's than idiot obscenity-screaming drivers on the public highways . . .
    Sorry Victor, but being a parent doesn't make one either wise or an efficient conduit of news and information.






    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    (we are talking about parents but insert any person that you know has impeccable integrity) I would assume that you would believe them on their word, that would be enough proof for you.
    Again, a title doesn't mean diddly. The head preacher of the Dallas First Babtist Church doesn't know squat about where rain comes from (says God creates clouds where rain is needed; evaporation is a foreign concept to him); most parents who think they can diagnose an automotive computer system with a voltmeter should confine their experiments on their own cars for obvious reasons; that lady who thought that God wanted her to chop off her child's arms not only was without proof, she was just plain looney.

    The point is, if you take the word of people and trust people you shouldn't, you're probably gonna get burned. Trust the Trustworthy. Or, as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."






    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Do you believe that the creator of this universe is incapable of keeping track of all of his children?
    And exactly what, pray tell, makes you suppose that (1) there is such a being, and (2) that she isn't too busy with other stuff to notice what we do on this little particle of dust in this universe of billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and planets and asteroids and weird things like Klingons and Borgs and cable TV?

    -Tock

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I just fear the Wrath of the Great Tock!
    You don't need to fear my WRATH, only the back of my WRIST, lest the wrath therewith waxes great and smitesths thou in the shortness of thy attention . . .

    -Tock

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