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  1. #1
    RockSolid's Avatar
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    The Islamic Dress Code for Women

    Right from the Koran, there are two places where it tells you what a women should wear -

    I am trying to say that Islam doesnt require a women to wear a scarf

    [24:30] Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes (and not stare at the women), and to maintain their chastity. This is purer for them. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything they do.

    [24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.

    [33:59] O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

    ___________________________________

    the scarf idea is more of a Arabic cultural thing, than an Islamic thing, god in the Koran only asks a women to dress moderately.

    I would like to add I rather marry a girl with a scarf than without.
    Last edited by RockSolid; 12-15-2004 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #2
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    I wonder how and who makes thier male servants to not have a sex drive??

    do they casterate them??

    sounds like a great lifestyle choice..
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    I wonder how and who makes thier male servants to not have a sex drive??

    do they casterate them??

    sounds like a great lifestyle choice..
    in Islamic/Arab society they dont castrate male servants, but they did in Chinese society.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    in Islamic/Arab society they dont castrate male servants, but they did in Chinese society.

    The Catholic church used to do that up until the 1800's to choirboys so they would keep their soprano singing range. That was back in the days when women weren't allowed to sing in choirs, and when they found a good soprano voice, well, castration was the only way they could keep 'em.

    =============

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

    Castrato
    A castrato is a male soprano, mezzo-soprano, or alto voice produced by castration of the singer before puberty.

    This practice was begun in the 16th century, when the Catholic Church in Europe had banned women from singing in choirs, and reached its peak in 17th and 18th century opera. It is known as castratism. 70 percent of opera singers of the Baroque period were castrati. The male heroic lead would often be written for a castrato singer (in the operas of Handel for example). When such operas are performed today, a woman or countertenor takes these roles.

    Castration before puberty (or in its early stages) prevents the boy's larynx from being fully transformed by the normal physiological effects of puberty. As a result, the vocal range of prepubescence (shared by boys and girls) is largely retained, and the voice develops into adulthood in a unique way. As the castrato's body grows (especially in lung capacity and muscular strength), and as his musical training and maturity increase, his voice develops a range, power and flexibility quite different from the singing voice of the adult female, but also markedly different from the higher vocal ranges of the uncastrated adult male (see soprano, mezzo-soprano, alto, sopranista and contralto).

    Probably the most famous castrato was the 18th century singer Carlo Broschi, known as Farinelli. In 1994 a film was made about him, Farinelli Il Castrato.

    In 1870 the practice of castrating promising young singers (or castratism) was outlawed in Italy, the last country where it was still in custom.

    The only acknowledged castrato to make phonograph recordings was Alessandro Moreschi, the last surviving castrato of the Pope's choir. Moreschi recorded gramophone records for the Gramophone & Typewriter Company in 1902 and again in 1904. Critical opinion is divided about Moreschi's recordings; some say they are of little interest other than the novelty of preserving the voice of a castrato for Moreschi was a mediocre singer, while other critics detect the remains of a quite talented singer who was unfortunately past his prime by the time he recorded.

    In more modern times, Ugo Farell has been suspected of being a castrato.

    There have also been reported cases of so-called "natural castrati" who were born with hormonal disorders that reproduce the above "desired" effects of castration without the surgeon's knife. Radu Marian and Jorge Cano stand out as extraordinary "natural castrati" gifted talents at present providing us with the opportunity to appreciate the full power of their voices, which incarnate the past castrati.

    Some uncastrated male singers are able to use their voices up into the soprano register, apparently without the use of the falsetto voice, and are known as sopranistas. There are very few such singers performing today. Sopranistas are also able to perform some music which was written for castrati, and composers such as Rossini wrote parts specifically for sopranista.

    The most celebrated of the castrati singers were (in chronological order):

    Baldassare Ferri (1610 - 1680)

    Antonio Maria Bernacchi (1685 - 1756)

    Francesco Bernardi Senesino (c.1685 - c.1759)

    Carlo Broschi Farinelli (1705 - 1782)

    Gaetano Majorano Caffarelli (1710 - 1783)

    Gaetano Guadagni (1725 - 1792)

    Gasparo Pacchierotti (1740 - 1821)

    Luigi Marchesi (1754 - 1829)

    Girolamo Crescentini (1762 - 1848)

    Giambattista Velluti (1781 - 1861)

    ==============

    Such things were considered quite normal back then . . .

    -Tock

  5. #5
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    1-I agree with u about many aspects of the womens attire in islam being more of an arab conservative culture than it is religeon.

    2-Yes there were castrated servants back then and there are still in rich families in arab gulf states. Because to tell u the truth slavery still exsists for royalty in the gulf arab countries and they do buy black slaves from africa and castrate them so they could work around the women and run arrands for them.

    If u ever get the chance to see the wives or women of rich gulf royalty after a few years of pampering and gourmet food then u will realize that it doesnt really need castration for u to lose your sex drive on some of those 300pounders.

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    Islamic societies have some of the worst records for human rights violations towards women, according to the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and the United Nations.

    I wonder if it's possible to somehow work blaming the Jews into those statistics...or US/Isreali aid...perhaps?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    in Islamic/Arab society they dont castrate male servants, but they did in Chinese society.
    so they are not following, or being obedient to the law???
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    Scarf or not...how's the Womens Rights issues coming along in Islamic Culture? According to most measures, they are among the worst violators of womens rights in the world....

    Maybe we can blame a Zionist plot for that?

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    Maybe we can blame a Zionist plot for that?[/QUOTE]

    maybe u should get an education! just a thought.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    I wonder if it's possible to somehow work blaming the Jews into those statistics...or US/Isreali aid...perhaps?
    I'll give it a try........since the US aids Israel..hmm....yep i got it!!

    -The word "woman" in arabic sounds like "jew" in arabic which makes them targets to muslim on jew violence?

    -US aid helps pay for jews to get family therapy so they dont beat their wives but there is no aid to muslims so they do?

    -Us aid helps Jewish women afford lawyers and sue their husbands if they get beaten, but muslims get no aid so they arent afraid of the law cause women cant afford it?

    -US aid to israel helped finance a campaign of spreading violent gore flicks and hardcore martial art movies through muslim countires making men more violent and short tempered.

    -Since the US aids Israel....this helped finance another sub-campaign which dumped tonnes of S&M videos and sex toys in the muslim countires which in turn led to lots of whipping and spankings which were misinturpreted by human rights as beatings?

    I could think of these all day man....the US/Israel aid can be blamed for everything

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    1-I agree with u about many aspects of the womens attire in islam being more of an arab conservative culture than it is religeon.
    I believe this is totally true.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    2-Yes there were castrated servants back then and there are still in rich families in arab gulf states. Because to tell u the truth slavery still exsists for royalty in the gulf arab countries and they do buy black slaves from africa and castrate them so they could work around the women and run arrands for them.

    If u ever get the chance to see the wives or women of rich gulf royalty after a few years of pampering and gourmet food then u will realize that it doesnt really need castration for u to lose your sex drive on some of those 300pounders.
    I don't agree with you about this. I don't think slavery is still exist in the Persian Gulf "Arab" states. Could you tell me one state where the princes "buy" black slaves from Africa?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Scarf or not...how's the Womens Rights issues coming along in Islamic Culture? According to most measures, they are among the worst violators of womens rights in the world....

    Maybe we can blame a Zionist plot for that?
    I didn't understand what exactly you meant by "Islamic Culture". I'm neither Arab nor Muslim, but I traveled a lot and didn't see a "unique" Islamic Culture. Same applies on "Christian Culture" and so on.

    For example, if you compare Muslim societies in Europe (e.g. Bosnia or Russia) with Muslims in Arab countries and again with Muslims in Asian countries like India and China, you'll find a lot of difference and diversity. Also, Christian women in Arab countries have almost no freedom, exactly as Muslim women there. I believe it has something to do with the local culture rather than the religion. That is my 2 cent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soo2bhuge

    maybe u should get an education! just a thought.
    My minor in college was Womens Studies. And I have two degrees, other than that minor.

    Is that sufficient education?

    My point, for those who missed it, was that Arabs are quick to point out US aid to Isreal and Zionism as the route of their problems...neither of which can explain the atrocious Womens Rights violations comitted by predominantly Moslem countries.

    Example: The last incident in Turkey which prompted Jaques Chiraq to comment that Turkey has a decade or so to go before consideration for admission in the the EU.

  14. #14
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    Str8 from the Source

    I would suggest U do more research before u send out messages

    يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً - لَّئِن لَّمْ يَنتَهِ الْمُنَـفِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمْ مَّرَضٌ وَالْمُرْجِفُونَ فِى الْمَدِينَةِ لَنُغْرِيَنَّكَ بِهِمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يُجَاوِرُونَكَ فِيهَآ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً - مَّلْعُونِينَ أَيْنَمَا ثُقِفُواْ أُخِذُواْ وَقُتِّلُواْ تَقْتِيلاً - سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِى الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلاً ]
    O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful[].

    Explanation of the verse
    Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah:

    [يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ]

    to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.''


    [ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ]


    (That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. ) means, if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or whores.


    [وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً]


    (And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) means, with regard to what happened previously during the days of Jahiliyyah, when they did not have any knowledge about this.

  15. #15
    50%Natural's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soo2bhuge
    maybe u should get an education! just a thought.
    When analyzing this stament I have come to a couple of conclusions. Obviously, grammar is not a strong point for yourself. We will look at the beginning of the sentence for starters. As you might know, when starting a sentance, it is proper to begin the sentance with a capatalized letter. So that would be considered problematic with the word 'maybe.' Also, since when is the letter 'u' a proper word? Were you meaning to say 'you'? It is a fairly simple concept to grasp that 'you' consists of three letters to make the word, while the letter 'u' can not stand alone as a word such as 'A' or 'I' for that matter. Next, we will look at the use of your punctuation to end the sentence. I do not find an exclamation mark (!) to be necessary in this case. Usually, when one is using an exclamation mark, they are trying to exhibit a sense of excitment or joy. You are making a statment that is half way a feeble attempt at insult to the orginal poster for which your statement was quoting. So excitment would not be the tone used for your 'sentence.' When making an observation, and a terrible one in this case, you should choose a period to end your sentence. Next, we will examine the word 'just.' Once again, the same rule applies to this word that applied to 'maybe' that I spoke of earlier. Also, you have what is called a fragment in your second statement. There is no subject in the 'sentence' so therefore it is not a sentence but probably to your surprise, merely a fragment. For this to be considered a sentence, there must at least be an implied subject. There is no stated nor implied subject in your 'sentence.' Fragments are not complete thoughts so you are basically sharing that you know three random words to your audience. So, with that said, I have my second conclusion which I will now unveal to you. It seems somewhat ironic for you to make that stament when it is infact you who appears to be in need of education. Take care, and have a nice day unless of course you are reading this in the evening; if that is the case, then you have yourself a nice evening or night for that matter.
    Last edited by 50%Natural; 12-16-2004 at 05:57 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex2
    .

    I don't agree with you about this. I don't think slavery is still exist in the Persian Gulf "Arab" states. Could you tell me one state where the princes "buy" black slaves from Africa?
    If you visit Kuwiat, Saudi, Emirates, Qatar or Oman u will see that most families do have 'servants' because it is cheap to get servants from the philipines and india, these are not slaves they are just workers that are on a 2 year contract with the option to go back home after that if they choose not to renew.

    However!!! What i meant is that the royal families that run the country and all their following relative families have stuck with the very old tradition of still having african slaves, they get them from Somalia, Ethiopia, Moritaniya(sp) and other very poor african states and yes they are castrated so they can work inside the household where there are women. The slaves family is given a sum of money (enough to help their family start a small farm or so in their home country) but the actual slave is then property of the sheik and is so for the rest fo his life without any further pay!!
    In order to see this u must either know a sheik so u can go in their house to confirm this.
    When i was young (only 12years ago or so) we lived in the UAE and in Qatar and i met some sons of these sheiks because they sent their kids to the same english schools and when i went to visit them it was all like i explained!
    You might think that was a long time ago but i still work Offshore in Qatar and the Emirates and when i go into town i have the same friends and things havent changed! I even saw the same exact slave still working inside the household. And they still only choose black guys to be drivers or bodygaurds for the kids because their old fashioned and racist mentality is still that 'black people are inferior and disposable!"

    its sad but true! If u just go around and tour any of these countires (or if u were human rights org) then u could never just find evidence of this by walking the streets and markets! But go visit some homes of certain wealthy individuals and u will see yourself...or just go to any private expensive highschool and stand outside and see who is dropping off the kids of the VIP's and 10 out of 10 times it will be a black driver that gets them there and walks them to class!
    Last edited by KAEW44; 12-16-2004 at 08:09 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50%Natural
    When analyzing this stament I have come to a couple of conclusions. Obviously, grammar is not a strong point for yourself. We will look at the beginning of the sentence for starters. As you might know, when starting a sentance, it is proper to begin the sentance with a capatalized letter. So that would be considered problematic with the word 'maybe.' Also, since when is the letter 'u' a proper word? Were you meaning to say 'you'? It is a fairly simple concept to grasp that 'you' consists of three letters to make the word, while the letter 'u' can not stand alone as a word such as 'A' or 'I' for that matter. Next, we will look at the use of your punctuation to end the sentence. I do not find an exclamation mark (!) to be necessary in this case. Usually, when one is using an exclamation mark, they are trying to exhibit a sense of excitment or joy. You are making a statment that is half way a feeble attempt at insult to the orginal poster for which your statement was quoting. So excitment would not be the tone used for your 'sentence.' When making an observation, and a terrible one in this case, you should choose a period to end your sentence. Next, we will examine the word 'just.' Once again, the same rule applies to this word that applied to 'maybe' that I spoke of earlier. Also, you have what is called a fragment in your second statement. There is no subject in the 'sentence' so therefore it is not a sentence but probably to your surprise, merely a fragment. For this to be considered a sentence, there must at least be an implied subject. There is no stated nor implied subject in your 'sentence.' Fragments are not complete thoughts so you are basically sharing that you know three random words to your audience. So, with that said, I have my second conclusion which I will now unveal to you. It seems somewhat ironic for you to make that stament when it is infact you who appears to be in need of education. Take care, and have a nice day unless of course you are reading this in the evening; if that is the case, then you have yourself a nice evening or night for that matter.
    lol. that's pretty funny (not as funny as the pic. of yourself on your avatar, but funny nonetheless). before u start judging other peoples' grammar, why don't u look at yours??? i took the liberty of underlying your mistakes and if one piece of "turd" would take a look at his own poorly written paragraph, he will see that graduating from high school and getting that "GED=good enough diploma" has not worked to his advantage. i encourage u to try again, this time with a bit more awareness for one's stupidity. take care and have a great day.
    oh and i don't think u want to compare diplomas, or jobs, or salaries for that matter.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50%Natural
    When analyzing this stament I have come to a couple of conclusions. Obviously, grammar is not a strong point for yourself. We will look at the beginning of the sentence for starters. As you might know, when starting a sentance, it is proper to begin the sentance with a capatalized letter. So that would be considered problematic with the word 'maybe.' Also, since when is the letter 'u' a proper word? Were you meaning to say 'you'? It is a fairly simple concept to grasp that 'you' consists of three letters to make the word, while the letter 'u' can not stand alone as a word such as 'A' or 'I' for that matter. Next, we will look at the use of your punctuation to end the sentence. I do not find an exclamation mark (!) to be necessary in this case. Usually, when one is using an exclamation mark, they are trying to exhibit a sense of excitment or joy. You are making a statment that is half way a feeble attempt at insult to the orginal poster for which your statement was quoting. So excitment would not be the tone used for your 'sentence.' When making an observation, and a terrible one in this case, you should choose a period to end your sentence. Next, we will examine the word 'just.' Once again, the same rule applies to this word that applied to 'maybe' that I spoke of earlier. Also, you have what is called a fragment in your second statement. There is no subject in the 'sentence' so therefore it is not a sentence but (comma missing) probably to your surprise, merely a fragment. For this to be considered a sentence, there must at least be an implied subject. There is no stated nor implied subject in your 'sentence.' Fragments are not complete thoughts (comma missing) so you are basically sharing that you know three random words to your audience. So, with that said, I have my second conclusion which I will now unveal to you. It seems somewhat ironic for you to make that stament when it is infact you who appears to be in need of education. Take care, and have a nice day (comma missing)unless of course you are reading this in the evening; if that is the case, then you have yourself a nice evening (comma missing)or night for that matter.

    Dont forget grammatical errors....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Dont forget grammatical errors....
    LOL. THANK YOU!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Dont forget grammatical errors....
    Ah ****, i guess that's what happens when studying for finals and up all night on ritalin...guess it is I who is calling the kettle black huh?

  21. #21
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    *smile* I honestly could care less..just makin fun. no offense meant. i dont worry about grammer or spelling here myself..i just type and whatever comes out, i figure its close enough for you guys to know... Have a good one.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridla
    I would suggest U do more research before u send out messages
    What surah is that?

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    i belive that verse you posted is not for the koran, it is a hadith I choose to follow the koran first, the hadiths can be used as a added guide, but really I think alot of things from the hadiths are fabricated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50%Natural
    Ah ****, i guess that's what happens when studying for finals and up all night on ritalin...guess it is I who is calling the kettle black huh?
    lol. u got it. but good effort nonetheless. goodluck with the finals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soo2bhuge
    oh and i don't think u want to compare diplomas, or jobs, or salaries for that matter.
    Well...you seemed to imply that I had no education...when in fact, I have two BA's plus a minor degree...from a very well known University. And I'm a member of MENSA, as well.....

    As for my job, I work with disadvantaged, emotionally handicapped, and abused youths...so I suppose you probably make more money than I do.
    Congratulations....

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Well...you seemed to imply that I had no education...when in fact, I have two BA's plus a minor degree...from a very well known University. And I'm a member of MENSA, as well.....

    As for my job, I work with disadvantaged, emotionally handicapped, and abused youths...so I suppose you probably make more money than I do.
    Congratulations....
    i don't remember attributing my statement to your post.

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    You quoted me and then made an education comment ("maybe u should get an education")...later on you made another education comment, and I assumed that since you had previously questioned my education, and nobody elses expicitly, it was directed at me again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    You quoted me and then made an education comment ("maybe u should get an education")...later on you made another education comment, and I assumed that since you had previously questioned my education, and nobody elses expicitly, it was directed at me again.
    well, in that case i don't know waht school u went to because hate and racism is not taught at major US universities, but i guess your school is special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soo2bhuge
    well, in that case i don't know waht school u went to because hate and racism is not taught at major US universities, but i guess your school is special.

    Forgive me for interfering, but I think you two have a communication failure and someone needs to put a stop to it. Hooker is not racist. He was mentioning a fact which can easily be validated by you. Plus his comment about blaming the Jews for it was sarcastic. From your reply to him, soo2bhuge, it appears as though you didn't take that comment as a sarcastic one and that's what got you angry. Am I correct?
    It seems as though you two both have the same view but fail to understand eachother.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Forgive me for interfering, but I think you two have a communication failure and someone needs to put a stop to it. Hooker is not racist. He was mentioning a fact which can easily be validated by you. Plus his comment about blaming the Jews for it was sarcastic. From your reply to him, soo2bhuge, it appears as though you didn't take that comment as a sarcastic one and that's what got you angry. Am I correct?
    It seems as though you two both have the same view but fail to understand eachother.....
    now that i read it, i do see that it was sarcastic and i apologize. i was not angry or upset, after all this is just a forum. Thank you Rak_Ani for pointing it out and I'm sorry Hooker for jumping to conclusions.

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    Yeah...I was being sarcastic...however...It is a fact that countries which are predominantly Moslem have far more womens rights violations than coutries which are predominantly Christian or Jewish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Yeah...I was being sarcastic...however...It is a fact that countries which are predominantly Moslem have far more womens rights violations than coutries which are predominantly Christian or Jewish.
    no disagreement on u for that.

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