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  1. #1
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quran says Israel Belongs to Jews..

    This was posted in another thread and didn't get the response it should have gotten, maybe the truth hurts!.

    CLICK HERE

    © 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
    A contrarian Muslim professor claims the Quran actually teaches Israel belongs to the Jews.

    Khaleel Mohammed, assistant professor of religious studies at San Diego State University, said in an interview with Frontpage Magazine the person most mentioned in Islam's holy book is Moses, the great Old Testament prophet and leader of the Israelites.


    Mohammed says the Quran presents Moses "as God's revolutionary" who "leads a people despised and tormented for no other reason than that they worshipped God, out of the land of bondage to the Promised Holy Land."

    The professor quotes from Chapter 5: 20-21, which says Moses declared, "O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

    Mohammed points specifically to the reference to the Holy Land as a place God has "written" for the Israelites, a term that conveys, in Jewish and Islamic understandings, a "meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability."

    "So the simple fact is then," he says, "from a faith-based point of view: If God has 'written' Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?"

    The professor describes himself as a scholar "interested in a moderate Islam, one that is inclusive and is concerned about all human rights."

    "My mission is to help reclaim the beauty that once was practiced in Islam, a message not currently in fashion amongst more traditional or fundamentalist Muslims," he told Frontpage.

    Mohammed said while Muslims may argue the present state of Israel was "not created in the most peaceful means, and that many were displaced," this, for him, is not the issue.

    "The issue," says Mohammed, "is that when the Muslims entered that land in the 7th century, they were well aware of its rightful owners, and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action -- wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis."

    He says medieval scholars, "without any exception known to me," interpreted the Quran to recognize Israel as belonging to the Jews.

    According to Mohammed, the idea that Israel does not belong to the Jews is a modern one, "probably based on the Mideast rejection of European colonialism, etc., but certainly not having anything to do with the Quran."

    Most Muslims, he laments, do not read the Quran for themselves and instead rely on imams and preachers to do the reading and interpreting for them.


    __________________________________________________ ____________

    Speaking from my own personal experience I've found the last paragraph to be very true. Because of the high level of illerateracy in Arab countries most Muslims must rely on their local, friendly ( ) neighbourhood cleric to interept the Quran. Sad really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER

    The professor quotes from Chapter 5: 20-21, which says Moses declared, "O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."
    To the Muslim members,

    Is this translation correct?

    Every translation that I can find on the internet, reads the same.

  3. #3
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    great post! even though i'm not religious, great post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Because of the high level of illerateracy in Arab countries most Muslims must rely on their local, friendly ( ) neighbourhood cleric to interept the Quran. Sad really.
    I'd like to see a depandable statistic on the illetiracy statement because i dont think people in arab countries cant read, infact i think the majority read very well, the problem with the Quraan readers is that the majority just read it without asking themselves what its saying or what it means, and in NON-ARAB muslim countries like pakistan and bangladesh and afghanistan kids are taught at a young age to memorize Quraan without having a clue what it is saying because they dont speak arabic in those countires!
    And thats why many muslims rely fully on the clerics to explain to them what its saying, nto because they cant read it themselves...but because they are not learning the interpretations of what they are reading.
    Eventhough the Quraan is in arabic, most of the dialect and wording used is completley foreign to the diverse arabic dialects used today in all arab countries.

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    Very nice post.

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    that quote that I discussed with Raky ani mentioned that god would assemble Jews into "the area", but the fact is "the area" was a human creation. Now it can be argued that it is either a self fullfilling prophesey, or god made it that way.

    but the funny thing is, that in Islam, the assembling of the jews in Jersusalme is the coming of the ends of days, in which there will be a battle between "muslims" and the followers of gog and mahog, who will be majority jewish.

    I have to read more into it, so if muslim members can correct me, it will be good. ZOAIB I know you are around here, explain this please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    I'd like to see a depandable statistic on the illetiracy statement because i dont think people in arab countries cant read, infact i think the majority read very well, the problem with the Quraan readers is that the majority just read it without asking themselves what its saying or what it means, and in NON-ARAB muslim countries like pakistan and bangladesh and afghanistan kids are taught at a young age to memorize Quraan without having a clue what it is saying because they dont speak arabic in those countires!
    And thats why many muslims rely fully on the clerics to explain to them what its saying, nto because they cant read it themselves...but because they are not learning the interpretations of what they are reading.
    Eventhough the Quraan is in arabic, most of the dialect and wording used is completley foreign to the diverse arabic dialects used today in all arab countries.
    You qouted me incorrectly.. If I can put what I said into its proper context now

    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Speaking from my own personal experience I've found the last paragraph to be very true. Because of the high level of illerateracy in Arab countries most Muslims must rely on their local, friendly ( ) neighbourhood cleric to interept the Quran. Sad really..
    Notice I said;
    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Speaking from my own personal experience ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    I'd like to see a depandable statistic on the illetiracy statement because i dont think people in arab countries cant read, infact i think the majority read very well, the problem with the Quraan readers is that the majority just read it without asking themselves what its saying or what it means, and in NON-ARAB muslim countries like pakistan and bangladesh and afghanistan kids are taught at a young age to memorize Quraan without having a clue what it is saying because they dont speak arabic in those countires!
    And thats why many muslims rely fully on the clerics to explain to them what its saying, nto because they cant read it themselves...but because they are not learning the interpretations of what they are reading.
    Eventhough the Quraan is in arabic, most of the dialect and wording used is completley foreign to the diverse arabic dialects used today in all arab countries.
    why do arabs blame others? It is true that Arab countries have the lowest rates of literacy in the world. There is a site somewhere I will post it when I am at my home comp.

    stop blaming countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, those countries have produced great Islamic teachers and leaders, and have good muslims within their countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    that quote that I discussed with Raky ani mentioned that god would assemble Jews into "the area", but the fact is "the area" was a human creation. Now it can be argued that it is either a self fullfilling prophesey, or god made it that way.

    but the funny thing is, that in Islam, the assembling of the jews in Jersusalme is the coming of the ends of days, in which there will be a battle between "muslims" and the followers of gog and mahog, who will be majority jewish.

    I have to read more into it, so if muslim members can correct me, it will be good. ZOAIB I know you are around here, explain this please.
    what u have just mentioned my friend is from the SURAH -AL ISRA (17) and the verse is 104 in that surah .......which reads like this

    101. And indeed We gave to Mūsa (Moses) nine clear signs. Ask then the Children of Israel, when he came to them, then Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said to him: "O Mūsa (Moses)! I think you are indeed bewitched."

    102. [Mūsa (Moses)] said: "Verily, you know that these signs have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as clear (evidences i.e. proofs of Allāh's Oneness and His Omnipotence, etc.). And I think you are, indeed, O Fir'aun (Pharaoh) doomed to destruction (away from all good)!"

    103. So he resolved to turn them out of the land (of Egypt). But We drowned him and all who were with him.

    104. And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).[Tafsir Al-Qurtubī, Vol. 10, Page 338]

    and from the last verse , most of the islamic scholars have interpreted that the jews will be gathered back into the promised land of israel ............ in the end of days ................... so Rocky u r on the Mark about this !

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    great ZOAIB so what happens after? The Amir and Jesus come back and fight most of the people of Israel right? i honestly used to know this, but i forgot school is killing me here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    great ZOAIB so what happens after? The Amir and Jesus come back and fight most of the people of Israel right? i honestly used to know this, but i forgot school is killing me here.
    i'd rather not mention it here since , what happens to the jews afterwards is not SOO GOOD of a thing and whoever finds it appealing to read this surah in the Quran and proclaim " QURAN SAYS ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS" should also read the rest of what God has proclaimed for them , and what kind of an end awaits them ..............

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    i'd rather not mention it here since , what happens to the jews afterwards is not SOO GOOD of a thing and whoever finds it appealing to read this surah in the Quran and proclaim " QURAN SAYS ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS" should also read the rest of what God has proclaimed for them , and what kind of an end awaits them ..............

    The Koran is not a book of God. It has mistakes in it and no book of God can have mistakes. The reason I brought it up is because the Palestinians believe in it and so one would expect them to respect what's in it. Whatever the Koran says about the future of the Jews or the Christians or anyone else for that matter is a good guess at most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    why do arabs blame others? It is true that Arab countries have the lowest rates of literacy in the world. There is a site somewhere I will post it when I am at my home comp.

    stop blaming countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, those countries have produced great Islamic teachers and leaders, and have good muslims within their countries.

    Your right, i agree that arabs always blame others, and i know i said that non-arab countires teach Quran to young kids without translation and that was a wrong statement because EVEN arab countires do teach young kids Quran without translation.
    Sorry for any offense i caused but my point was that even if u speak arabic fluently, the Quran is not straightforeward read-and-understand because the dialect and wording in the Quran when it was written has changed greatly over the years and over the diversity of each arabic speaking country.

    I just think Quran should never be taught UNLESS the translation (tafseer) is explained in the same session.

    I'v gone off topic so lets get back to Israel being for the Jews in the Quran....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    The Koran is not a book of God. It has mistakes in it and no book of God can have mistakes. The reason I brought it up is because the Palestinians believe in it and so one would expect them to respect what's in it. Whatever the Koran says about the future of the Jews or the Christians or anyone else for that matter is a good guess at most.
    yes you r right from a NON RELIGIOUS perspective !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    The Koran is not a book of God. It has mistakes in it and no book of God can have mistakes. The reason I brought it up is because the Palestinians believe in it and so one would expect them to respect what's in it. Whatever the Koran says about the future of the Jews or the Christians or anyone else for that matter is a good guess at most.
    your from a different religious backround so it should be expected you do not belive the Koran is the book of God, especially if your jewish, that isnt suprising. you tried to say the koran was "wrong" by claiming it mentioned Abraham wasnt mentioned in Hebron, which you were wrong in. The Koran has no mistakes in it at all, good try though.

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    Well...gee whiz...if we can't trust a millenia-old book...then what can we trust?

    Maybe the teachings of a carpenter who's been dead for 2,000 years can enlighten us?

    Or...just maybe...we need to stop looking for other's to show us what is right...and start thinking for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Well...gee whiz...if we can't trust a millenia-old book...then what can we trust?

    Maybe the teachings of a carpenter who's been dead for 2,000 years can enlighten us?

    Or...just maybe...we need to stop looking for other's to show us what is right...and start thinking for ourselves.
    yes u r right , from an atheists perspective , that is if u r one !

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    I would imagine that just like the Bible, the Muslims that follow the Koran interpret it to mean whatever they want it to. Hence why guys like Mohamad Ali say they are pacifists, while others say they are fighting a holy war against whoever they want to justify, etc.


    So even if the Koran read: 'The Jews belong in Israel,' I'm sure some other part of the Koran would be brought up in order to justify why the Mulsim world hates the Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
    I would imagine that just like the Bible, the Muslims that follow the Koran interpret it to mean whatever they want it to. Hence why guys like Mohamad Ali say they are pacifists, while others say they are fighting a holy war against whoever they want to justify, etc.


    So even if the Koran read: 'The Jews belong in Israel,' I'm sure some other part of the Koran would be brought up in order to justify why the Mulsim world hates the Jews.
    you r very right , but where u r wrong is that we cannot interpret the Koran to mean whatever we want it to be it is in one language ARABIC and each word in arabic means what it does , there are no two meanings but u prolly meant to say was that muslims who dont follow their religion r mostly the extremist kind who pass out their own ideals to others proclaiming they r guided on the right path , for them God is waiting at the end of the road ............... ameen

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    yes you r right from a NON RELIGIOUS perspective !

    Are you saying there's a religious reason for God to be claiming that Me'arat Hamachpela is located in Nablus and not in Hebron while everyone knows it's in Hebron?
    How do you explain such mistakes in a book of God?
    Other than that, if you go back to the time before Islam you will find that God has said that He will never show (I'm not sure I'm using the right word here. The Hebrew word to what I'm looking for is "hitgalut" - in case you want to look it up) himself to men again, so why go back on his word? And if he decided to go back on his word, why show himself to only one person and not to millions like he did with Moses and the Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLegend
    I would imagine that just like the Bible, the Muslims that follow the Koran interpret it to mean whatever they want it to. Hence why guys like Mohamad Ali say they are pacifists, while others say they are fighting a holy war against whoever they want to justify, etc.


    So even if the Koran read: 'The Jews belong in Israel,' I'm sure some other part of the Koran would be brought up in order to justify why the Mulsim world hates the Jews.
    The Muslim world hasn't always hated the Jews. Just like the article says, it's a pretty recent thing. When I was in high school I had to study in one of my classes poetry written by Jews to Muslims hundreds of years ago. They were in very good relations then and had mutual respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Are you saying there's a religious reason for God to be claiming that Me'arat Hamachpela is located in Nablus and not in Hebron while everyone knows it's in Hebron?
    How do you explain such mistakes in a book of God?
    Other than that, if you go back to the time before Islam you will find that God has said that He will never show (I'm not sure I'm using the right word here. The Hebrew word to what I'm looking for is "hitgalut" - in case you want to look it up) himself to men again, so why go back on his word? And if he decided to go back on his word, why show himself to only one person and not to millions like he did with Moses and the Jews?
    Back these accusations up with quotes, if not, you speak hearsay, and rumors. If you are going to make a large accusation like that, back them up with the quotes you are refering to.

    If you dont know what they are or whatever, dont make those accusations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    Back these accusations up with quotes, if not, you speak hearsay, and rumors. If you are going to make a large accusation like that, back them up with the quotes you are refering to.

    If you dont know what they are or whatever, dont make those accusations.

    Quotes of what? Of the exodus of the Jews from Egypt? Of that there were many more than one person there? Quotes that Muhammed was alone when God supposedly showed himself to him? So am I wrong about these? Does the Bible not say there were millions with Moses when God spoke to him? Did Muhammed also have millions with him when he spoke to God? Where were all these witnesses then?

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    Ill check it out Rak, I dont remember exactly, but I think God spoke to Moses when he was alone. But of course when the waters were split, they could see the hand of God.

    Max (not that it supports any point here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Are you saying there's a religious reason for God to be claiming that Me'arat Hamachpela is located in Nablus and not in Hebron while everyone knows it's in Hebron?
    How do you explain such mistakes in a book of God?
    Other than that, if you go back to the time before Islam you will find that God has said that He will never show (I'm not sure I'm using the right word here. The Hebrew word to what I'm looking for is "hitgalut" - in case you want to look it up) himself to men again, so why go back on his word? And if he decided to go back on his word, why show himself to only one person and not to millions like he did with Moses and the Jews?
    because when he showed himself , all of them died except moses because of the enormus energy that blew up the top of the mountain , maybe u should look up the era of moses and know what u r talking about ............... and why ? would God want to show himself to everyone , from such an intelligent person i didnt expect a very immature question like that ................ if God showed himself to everyone , then u will have no evil in this world cause even the atheists of the kind will fear him then ............ but then the TEST OF LIFE has no use , this is the reason God wants only the best of the people not the trash ................ cause hell awaits all the trash of this world !

    about the Nablous and hebron thing i have to look it up myself and see cause i havenever heard of that before .............. but if u want PM me your source and the location of the text in the Quran ............ would help me much !

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    " millions with moses when god spoke to him" u r right but u r wrong since u are just blowing this out of thin air there were millions of israelis with moses when he went up the mountain to get the ten commandments ......... and that is what u r talking about only moses recieved the tablets of stone form god alone and even Aron waited for him half way up the mountain .............. u need to get some History n religious studies in your class schedule ...........
    Last edited by ZOAIB; 12-20-2004 at 06:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Ill check it out Rak, I dont remember exactly, but I think God spoke to Moses when he was alone. But of course when the waters were split, they could see the hand of God.

    Max (not that it supports any point here)
    even when the saw the hand of God Split the nile , even after that DONT U REMEMBER them raising a golden calf to worship when moses had left to go speak to God , and when he came down he saw half of them indulging in sinful acts and worshipping the calf .............. and didnt God order moses to kill those infidels among them , so the righteous ones are saved from them ................... even then 100s of thousands seeing the hand of God would do such things , i really wonder how much God needed to show these guys to beleive that he is for real ................... very sad !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Quotes of what? Of the exodus of the Jews from Egypt? Of that there were many more than one person there? Quotes that Muhammed was alone when God supposedly showed himself to him? So am I wrong about these? Does the Bible not say there were millions with Moses when God spoke to him? Did Muhammed also have millions with him when he spoke to God? Where were all these witnesses then?
    the quote about Nabulus and Hebron in the koran, I tried to find those verses and have had no luck, so I would like it if you can find it, so i can look it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    because when he showed himself , all of them died except moses because of the enormus energy that blew up the top of the mountain , maybe u should look up the era of moses and know what u r talking about ............... and why ? would God want to show himself to everyone , from such an intelligent person i didnt expect a very immature question like that ................ if God showed himself to everyone , then u will have no evil in this world cause even the atheists of the kind will fear him then ............ but then the TEST OF LIFE has no use , this is the reason God wants only the best of the people not the trash ................ cause hell awaits all the trash of this world !
    yeap yeap good points

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    The Muslim world hasn't always hated the Jews. Just like the article says, it's a pretty recent thing. When I was in high school I had to study in one of my classes poetry written by Jews to Muslims hundreds of years ago. They were in very good relations then and had mutual respect.

    I understand, I was referring to the Muslims now and such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Ill check it out Rak, I dont remember exactly, but I think God spoke to Moses when he was alone. But of course when the waters were split, they could see the hand of God.

    Max (not that it supports any point here)
    If my understanding is correct, God also spoke the 10 commandments and the people heard Him. Also when Moses produced water from the rock God told him to bring the elders to watch as proof that this is God's doing. People really should read the description in the Bible. It's very detailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    because when he showed himself , all of them died except moses because of the enormus energy that blew up the top of the mountain , maybe u should look up the era of moses and know what u r talking about ............... and why ? would God want to show himself to everyone , from such an intelligent person i didnt expect a very immature question like that ................ if God showed himself to everyone , then u will have no evil in this world cause even the atheists of the kind will fear him then ............ but then the TEST OF LIFE has no use , this is the reason God wants only the best of the people not the trash ................ cause hell awaits all the trash of this world !

    about the Nablous and hebron thing i have to look it up myself and see cause i havenever heard of that before .............. but if u want PM me your source and the location of the text in the Quran ............ would help me much !

    In the Tora God warns of the possibility of a very charismatic person who would claim to have spoken/seen, etc God and get people to follow him. To ensure that doesn't happen God "showed" himself to hundreds of thousands (I was told there were a million and a half Hebrews, and many more Egyptians that came with them).
    Don't take my words out of context. Everything I say is double checked with an excellent source on Judaism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    " millions with moses when god spoke to him" u r right but u r wrong since u are just blowing this out of thin air there were millions of israelis with moses when he went up the mountain to get the ten commandments ......... and that is what u r talking about only moses recieved the tablets of stone form god alone and even Aron waited for him half way up the mountain .............. u need to get some History n religious studies in your class schedule ...........
    You are underestimating me my friend. Although I'm not a religious person, I had to study the Bible for two years in high school, I had to pass an exam on it in order to get my high school diploma. My score on it was 99%. Having said that, I don't consider myself as someone who knows much about religion, therefore I ask a lot of questions. Many of my friends come from religious background, some have even grown up in orthodox families. I consider them a better source on this than you, with all due respect. So when they tell me something that is written in the Bible, I tend to believe them rather than you when you say it isn't written in the Bible.
    In any case, just for you I opened a Bible (Kosher one - I got it when I was sworn in the army) and started reading about the Sinai events. It's hard to understand the language, but I did understand the part where God tells Moses to bring witnesses (elders) to his doings when he gets water from the stone. I'll keep reading, and will probably end up calling one of my friends about this, but if you like I'll bring you the list of "events" that involve God "showing" (again, that is probably not the accurate word to use) himself to more than one person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    You are underestimating me my friend. Although I'm not a religious person, I had to study the Bible for two years in high school, I had to pass an exam on it in order to get my high school diploma. My score on it was 99%. Having said that, I don't consider myself as someone who knows much about religion, therefore I ask a lot of questions. Many of my friends come from religious background, some have even grown up in orthodox families. I consider them a better source on this than you, with all due respect. So when they tell me something that is written in the Bible, I tend to believe them rather than you when you say it isn't written in the Bible.
    In any case, just for you I opened a Bible (Kosher one - I got it when I was sworn in the army) and started reading about the Sinai events. It's hard to understand the language, but I did understand the part where God tells Moses to bring witnesses (elders) to his doings when he gets water from the stone. I'll keep reading, and will probably end up calling one of my friends about this, but if you like I'll bring you the list of "events" that involve God "showing" (again, that is probably not the accurate word to use) himself to more than one person.
    Rak i would like to see your good judaic sources , cause i just cant digest this out of thin air , thx !

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    we have also been warned about a very charismatic person who will say he has seen God and will do miracles infront of people , and make many followers , but he is the Anti christ or Dajjal in Arabic , and he will be of the jews .....................

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    even the christians have been warned about the same guy , so linking u guys to this trilogy the Guy u are warned about is also the same guy , cause the real judaisim followers will know him for an imposter !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    even the christians have been warned about the same guy , so linking u guys to this trilogy the Guy u are warned about is also the same guy , cause the real judaisim followers will know him for an imposter !
    The warning is not of a specific person. It's of any person who will try this.

    My sources are religious people and former religious people. People who learn this from Rabbis and who read/ have read the Bible. Have you read the Bible?

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    Zoaib, I spelled it right! Does trash mean all non muslims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    The warning is not of a specific person. It's of any person who will try this.

    My sources are religious people and former religious people. People who learn this from Rabbis and who read/ have read the Bible. Have you read the Bible?
    so according to that Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammed (pbuh) are both imposters then , atleast according to your beliefs and for u guys only !

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Zoaib, I spelled it right! Does trash mean all non muslims?
    trash Victor means SINNERS in general !

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