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  1. #1
    Jdawg50's Avatar
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    Here's a good one: Women in Combat

    Playing devils advocate here:

    Great place for Bouncer to Chime in!

    Report leans toward women in combat


    By Rowan Scarborough
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES


    Internal Army documents advocate changing Pentagon rules on mixed-sex units in a way that critics say will risk placing female soldiers in ground-combat situations.
    The Nov. 29 briefing to senior Army officers at the Pentagon, presented as part of the service's sweeping transformation of its 10 war-fighting divisions, advocates scrapping the military's ban on collocation — the deployment of mixed-sex noncombat units alongside all-male combat brigades.
    The briefing contained the phrase: "The way ahead: rewrite/eliminate the Army collocation policy."

    To some in the Army, the confidential briefing proves that the service is moving toward a decision to put women within direct combat units, despite statements denying such plans, including a Nov. 3 Capitol Hill briefing for senior congressional staff members by Army and Pentagon officials.
    According to one aide, the Nov. 3 briefers assured the staff members that the Army was complying with the collocation rule and did not want it changed.
    "We are not collocating," a senior congressional aide quoted the presenters as saying.
    But the Army's Nov. 29 paper suggests otherwise, and critics of the plan, both inside and outside the Army, argue that it is part of an overall plan to override a 1994 policy prohibiting women from serving in direct land combat.
    The Pentagon has said it maintains the ban because upper-body strength is needed for land combat and because polls show most female soldiers do not want the policy changed.
    Elaine Donnelly, who heads the independent Center for Military Readiness, has sent a letter to Rep. Duncan Hunter, California Republican and House Armed Services Committee chairman, accusing the Army of violating Pentagon rules.
    "Female soldiers, including young mothers, should not have to pay the price for Pentagon bureaucratic blunders and gender-based recruiting quotas that have caused apparent shortages in male soldiers for the new land-combat brigades," Mrs. Donnelly said.
    "It does not make sense to sacrifice the advantage of modular organizations, just to make ideological points about gender equality. Land combat is not fair or equal, nor is it even civilized," she said.
    An Army spokeswoman at the Pentagon said, "It is my understanding that the Nov. 29 briefing was predecisional. There are a number of Army policies under review."
    The debate's roots go back to 1994. Impressed with the performance of military women in Operation Desert Storm, the Clinton administration lifted long-standing bans on women in combat aircraft and ships.
    But the new policy clearly stated that a prohibition would continue for ground units that participate in direct combat. The 1994 policy also said women would not serve "where units and positions are doctrinally required to physically collocate and remain with direct ground combat units that are closed to women."
    Now, the Army's transformation plans include proposals for much tighter mingling of combat and noncombat units.
    Gen. Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, has redesigned the basic combat brigade into self-contained "units of action" that train and deploy with their support teams, including a unit called the Forward Support Company (FSC). Currently, women serve in units that perform the functions of FSCs.
    Mrs. Donnelly and Army officials, who asked not to be named, contend that the new design would require the Army to violate the collocation rule. They say federal law requires the military to notify Congress.
    But in the Nov. 3 presentation to congressional aides, the Army said it was complying with the collocation rule by attaching the FSC to a brigade support battalion — not to the combat brigade itself. The first redesigned division, the 3rd Infantry at Fort Stewart, Ga., is scheduled to return to Iraq in January.
    But Mrs. Donnelly said the change is on paper only. She said that the 3rd Infantry's FSC, which is mixed-sex, would have to stay, or collocate, with the combat brigade "100 percent of the time" to do its job in the way the Army envisions.
    Even the Army's own documents, previously reported by The Washington Times and labeled "draft close hold," state that this arrangement "could be perceived as subterfuge to avoid reporting requirements" to Congress on changing the policy.
    About three weeks after the Nov. 3 briefing, the Army created another internal presentation — this one on why the ban on collocation should be lifted.
    The Nov. 29 briefing was prepared by Col. Robert H. Woods Jr., the director of the Human Resources Policy Directorate at the Pentagon. The directorate reports to the deputy chief of staff for personnel. Col. Woods has been nominated for promotion to brigadier general.
    The Woods briefing's cover page contains the headline, "Patriotic women of excellence contributing to our force."
    After writing that the "way ahead" is to eliminate the collocation rule, the briefing states, "incorporate lessons learned from 3rd [Infantry] into future decisions on policy affecting the assignment and utilization of women soldiers."
    Said Mrs. Donnelly: "It appears that certain shortsighted Army officials have decided to ignore the congressional notification law in order to gather 'lessons learned,' which in turn will be used to declare this live-fire, extremely dangerous social experiment a big 'success.' "
    The briefing also gives an example of how the Army might get rid of the rule. Army regulations state female soldiers are banned from units "which are assigned a routine mission to engage in direct combat or which collocate routinely with units assigned a direct combat mission."
    The proposed change deletes the collocation rule altogether, meaning only direct-combat units are off-limits.
    The Army document also states that the 1994 policy concerning the need to notify the Office of the Secretary of Defense is "silent on dropping restrictions."
    Mrs. Donnelly said this appears to be an argument for not notifying Pentagon civilians.
    "It is preposterous to suggest that the Army could put women into the infantry, armor or units collocated with them without formal approval by the secretary of defense," Mrs. Donnelly said.
    The Times reported last week on an internal May 10 briefing that portrayed the Army as in a bind. The briefing states the Army does not have enough male soldiers to fill the FSCs if they were to collocate with combat brigades and thus required to be men-only.
    All-male FSCs, the paper states, "creates potential long-term challenge to Army; pool of male recruits too small to sustain force."

  2. #2
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Well I can only give my own personal experience on this matter, and this has been flogged to death on AR in the past anyway.

    Having seen extensive combat service I'm totally against women serving in front line combat units.

  3. #3
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    Im with Bouncer...

  4. #4
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Im with Bouncer...

    Yea, and two words!!... Jessica Lynch

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Yea, and two words!!... Jessica Lynch
    Yeah what a Joke, That hole thing would have never happend in the first place if the WOMAN driving the truck would have never plowed into the ditch.
    Last edited by Odin; 12-21-2004 at 03:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    come on now, guys could have just as easily done it

    in Canada, they allow women to serve in the combat arms - their is a problem historically with it

    In isreal, due to manpower shortage they allowed women to serve in combat units, if a women is injured they tend to get more attention then a guy normally would. Also it's common for women to flirt (naturally) which creates sexual tension in any group. As far as i know, women are still active in combat units however since this discovery they've segregated the men/women

    I have seen alot of keen women soldiers in the canadian army, mabey because they want to prove a point? but for the most part, sadly, they simply can't multi-task what other soldiers must (i.e. carrying pretty well anything in the weapons det and it's kit).

    The infantry however has drastically changed to what it used to be 50 years ago, now it seems that infantry are primarly mounted and as such, fitness allthough still very important, is much less applicable.
    Last edited by GQ-Bouncer; 12-21-2004 at 03:48 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Yea, and two words!!... Jessica Lynch
    Bouncer that's BS. Forgive me but you're not talking from the head.

    In Israel many women applied to the supreme court in order to be allowed to enter combat units. Today we have women in many combat positions. These women volunteer to serve as men and so far they do well. We have women pilots who are probably better than most of your male pilots, and we have combat women serving in the WB and Gaza (not many but we have them). Those in fact have a "relaxing" effect on the Palestinians.
    Also don't forget that in the Israeli war of independence women fought side by side with men and look at the results.
    Ron Arad is a man and look where he ended up. Women can tolerate pain more than men (if you had to put up with 5 minutes of the pains some women suffer on a monthly basis you would probably shoot yourself in the head), plus with today's technology the physical differences are less and less important.

    I'm all for equality between men and women in their military service opportunities.

  8. #8
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Bouncer that's BS. Forgive me but you're not talking from the head.
    Your right, I'm talking from experience.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Your right, I'm talking from experience.
    hahahaha... ahhh..

    which regiment are you in bouncer? we worked with the green jackets a couple years ago in wainwright alberta (canada)

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    [QUOTE=Rak_Ani]Bouncer that's BS. Forgive me but you're not talking from the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    We have women pilots who are probably better than most of your male pilots.
    Nothing new there, the Russians first used women pilots during WWII, plus female snipers too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    and we have combat women serving in the WB and Gaza (not many but we have them). Those in fact have a "relaxing" effect on the Palestinians. .
    Do you mean manning checkpints and crossings and other logical positions, or actually counter-terrorist/insurgency tactics, ie DIBUA and FIBUA?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Also don't forget that in the Israeli war of independence women fought side by side with men and look at the results..
    We had women figh in our war of independence too, out of nessesity, doesn't prove their good front line fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    plus with today's technology the physical differences are less and less important...
    Bullets are lighter now (how many rounds doe an IDF infantry section carry per man?), motor tubes, base plates and bombs are lighter also?. The IDF use the FN 7.62mm G.P.M.G. as its infantry section and platoon support weapon, that plus its ammo supply and spare parts wallet must be carried along with the soldiers P.L.C.E. those plus many other factors are a heavy burden for a female soldier to hump. Its all very well to show this done in training, but its entirely different in the area of combat operations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I'm all for equality between men and women in their military service opportunities.
    In an ideal world, yes. But I haven't seen an ideal war yet.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Rak_Ani here's some info I have found on women in combat units in the IDF..

    CLICK HERE

    AND HERE.

    But it doesn't say what exactly their role in combat units are!. We have women serving 'in combat' units, but not filling the same roll's as their male comrades.

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    Odin is offline Member
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    The big issue the military had with woman on the front lines was upper body strength. Aside from that you got sexual harrasment, law suit's and one hell of a headache. In fact they had one ship that was bi-gender, and they called it the Love Boat, cause half they woman came back knocked up. US woman can get inpregnated just fine back here in the states without going to war.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Nothing new there, the Russians first used women pilots during WWII, plus female snipers too.




    Do you mean manning checkpints and crossings and other logical positions, or actually counter-terrorist/insurgency tactics, ie DIBUA and FIBUA?.



    We had women figh in our war of independence too, out of nessesity, doesn't prove their good front line fighters.



    Bullets are lighter now (how many rounds doe an IDF infantry section carry per man?), motor tubes, base plates and bombs are lighter also?. The IDF use the FN 7.62mm G.P.M.G. as its infantry section and platoon support weapon, that plus its ammo supply and spare parts wallet must be carried along with the soldiers P.L.C.E. those plus many other factors are a heavy burden for a female soldier to hump. Its all very well to show this done in training, but its entirely different in the area of combat operations.




    In an ideal world, yes. But I haven't seen an ideal war yet.
    Why are your experiences more valid than history then?

    So what if women can't carry heavy equipment. A lot of men can't either. And not all equipment is heavy.

    And yes we have real combatant women in the IDF. A series of supreme court appeals opened the way for women in some top units.

    Anything else?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Rak_Ani here's some info I have found on women in combat units in the IDF..

    CLICK HERE

    AND HERE.

    But it doesn't say what exactly their role in combat units are!. We have women serving 'in combat' units, but not filling the same roll's as their male comrades.

    "Chen", no longer exists.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Why are your experiences more valid than history then?

    Because my experiences form my opinions. These are just my experiences formed over a twenty year period. You should know I always have the benefit of experience here


    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Anything else?
    A cup of tea would be nice!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Because my experiences form my opinions. These are just my experiences formed over a twenty year period. You should know I always have the benefit of experience here




    A cup of tea would be nice!

    And there I was thinking I was gonna get my ass "whooped" (or whipped. which is it?). So....I win?

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    And there I was thinking I was gonna get my ass "whooped" (or whipped. which is it?). So....I win?

    Well I can whipped it if you want!.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Here's a good one: Women in Combat-653101.jpg  

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Well I can whipped it if you want!.

    Wouldn't you just love that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Bouncer that's BS. Forgive me but you're not talking from the head.

    In Israel many women applied to the supreme court in order to be allowed to enter combat units. Today we have women in many combat positions. These women volunteer to serve as men and so far they do well. We have women pilots who are probably better than most of your male pilots, and we have combat women serving in the WB and Gaza (not many but we have them). Those in fact have a "relaxing" effect on the Palestinians.
    Also don't forget that in the Israeli war of independence women fought side by side with men and look at the results.
    Ron Arad is a man and look where he ended up. Women can tolerate pain more than men (if you had to put up with 5 minutes of the pains some women suffer on a monthly basis you would probably shoot yourself in the head), plus with today's technology the physical differences are less and less important.

    I'm all for equality between men and women in their military service opportunities.
    Well the issue of sexual tension with US troops might be greater than with IDF, Maybe the female IDF soldiers don't do much for turning on the IDF male soldiers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Well the issue of sexual tension with US troops might be greater than with IDF, Maybe the female IDF soldiers don't do much for turning on the IDF male soldiers.

    Sexual tension will be there even if the women aren't combatants. That's hardly the issue.

  21. #21
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    why cant we use them as bullet stoppers then? get all of these "wahhh we want equal rights when its convenient for us" pain in the ass title IX swearing bitches to go to the front?

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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    why cant we use them as bullet stoppers then? get all of these "wahhh we want equal rights when its convenient for us" pain in the ass title IX swearing bitches to go to the front?
    So you don't believe men and women should have equal rights?

  23. #23
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    My feelings about women on the front line has NOTHING to do with skill level or even strength. Here are a few of my reasons.

    Men would be more likely to sacrifice the good of the mission to save a woman.
    The US is not ready to see their women prisoners raped and tortured or really even hear of a woman being killed on the front lines.

    I dont have anything against women pilots. I am very against women in the special forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    So you don't believe men and women should have equal rights?
    Well Rak I'm going to do a good old fashion flip flop, I want woman to go over their! Their a lot of fatties over here that could use a good sweatin out in the destert. I mean no theirs hardly any good looking woman in the military. You got good points they don't need to be strong, and be able to run far, Just put their fast asses in a tank and get them out of my sight. Keep them over their until they can manage to sweat their way down to under a buck forty. Hell, I don't have an ego i'll go sit in the kitchen and write letters, as well as play ps2 and juice.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    So you don't believe men and women should have equal rights?
    equal rights yes, but when schools shut down profitable (yes america is run by the dollar like it or not) mens sports (IE: St. Johns lost a football team most recently) because they arent meeting title ix requirements and start a girls lacrosse team that no one goes to see thats unfair. Title IX is archaic and needs revision. also i shouldnt have to curb my speech in front of a woman because she may find what im saying offensive and slap me with a sexual harassment suit.

    furthermore when michele wie decides shes gonna play golf in the mens pga tour and tiger cant go play for the womans tour to slaughter them thats not fair. woman can play in mens sports but men cant play in womans sports? that doesnt sound like equal rights to me..... we should have one league/organization for each sport.... if you cant hack it get your ass back to the kitchen.....

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Well Rak I'm going to do a good old fashion flip flop, I want woman to go over their! Their a lot of fatties over here that could use a good sweatin out in the destert. I mean no theirs hardly any good looking woman in the military. You got good points they don't need to be strong, and be able to run far, Just put their fast asses in a tank and get them out of my sight. Keep them over their until they can manage to sweat their way down to under a buck forty. Hell, I don't have an ego i'll go sit in the kitchen and write letters, as well as play ps2 and juice.
    Isn't xbox better?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglouie250
    equal rights yes, but when schools shut down profitable (yes america is run by the dollar like it or not) mens sports (IE: St. Johns lost a football team most recently) because they arent meeting title ix requirements and start a girls lacrosse team that no one goes to see thats unfair. Title IX is archaic and needs revision. also i shouldnt have to curb my speech in front of a woman because she may find what im saying offensive and slap me with a sexual harassment suit.

    furthermore when michele wie decides shes gonna play golf in the mens pga tour and tiger cant go play for the womans tour to slaughter them thats not fair. woman can play in mens sports but men cant play in womans sports? that doesnt sound like equal rights to me..... we should have one league/organization for each sport.... if you cant hack it get your ass back to the kitchen.....
    I don't know how you got from military to sports but sure, if it's that important to you I'm all for it.
    Talk how you like in front of a woman just don't break the law and it works both ways as far as I know. You too can file a lawsuit against a woman for harassing you, am I correct?
    About the kitchen, I wouldn't send me there if I were you, unless you want a Kosher food poisoning (or want me to taste the meal you have decided to cook for me.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Isn't xbox better?
    Rak_Ani I can't believe you even dignified Odin's reply with an answer!.

    Personnally speaking I'm against women in front line combat units, doing a front line job!. But doing some research for this thread brought me accross this information on females in the Israeli Defence Forces..

    WOMEN IN THE IDF. click here.

    Having had the pleasure of seeing the IDF in operation, and knowing Israeli's in general I also believe the Israeli physe (sp'ing) enables females to better fit into the role of a front line combat soldier than probably anyother nationality I can imagine.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Rak_Ani I can't believe you even dignified Odin's reply with an answer!.

    Personnally speaking I'm against women in front line combat units, doing a front line job!. But doing some research for this thread brought me accross this information on females in the Israeli Defence Forces..

    WOMEN IN THE IDF. click here.

    Having had the pleasure of seeing the IDF in operation, and knowing Israeli's in general I also believe the Israeli physe (sp'ing) enables females to better fit into the role of a front line combat soldier than probably anyother nationality I can imagine.

    Say that again and make it bold red please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Say that again and make it bold red please.
    I forgot you loved red!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I forgot you loved red!.
    I do, but not on Thursday nights. Thursday nights are Maccabi nights, and when my team plays basketball I'm blue-yellow. Red is our biggest enemy in those two hours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I don't know how you got from military to sports but sure, if it's that important to you I'm all for it.
    Talk how you like in front of a woman just don't break the law and it works both ways as far as I know. You too can file a lawsuit against a woman for harassing you, am I correct?
    About the kitchen, I wouldn't send me there if I were you, unless you want a Kosher food poisoning (or want me to taste the meal you have decided to cook for me.)
    NO their nothing you can do too woman, when I bounce I get sexually harassed all the time and nothing happens. After a while of getting grabed you start to feel like a used piece of garbage.

    ooo about x-box yeah its a better systme but ps2 games are better so far!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I don't know how you got from military to sports but sure, if it's that important to you I'm all for it.
    Talk how you like in front of a woman just don't break the law and it works both ways as far as I know. You too can file a lawsuit against a woman for harassing you, am I correct?
    About the kitchen, I wouldn't send me there if I were you, unless you want a Kosher food poisoning (or want me to taste the meal you have decided to cook for me.)


    you led me there with the "you dont believe in equal rights" i used sports as examples of how equal rights are becoming equal as a matter of convenience.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Women can tolerate pain more than men (if you had to put up with 5 minutes of the pains some women suffer on a monthly basis you would probably shoot yourself in the head)
    I think that is TOTAL bull****. A person can whitstand the pain he MUST withstand. I could probably say that if you had to walk around with the sciatic pain I had for half a year you would shot yourself. But the truth is you wouldnt cause you would have to endure it, same if men that "those" pains. The child birth argument many females brings upp falls on the same principle. Males would handle it just as fine if they HAD TO.

    If females can whitstand more pain. Then why generaly speaking is it always the males that can battle pain the best in martial arts and other forms of training. Why is it that when you go into a gym a higer % of the males are busting there asses throught the pain barrier while the females are pussying around with the 2ib db's or walking easily on the treadmill...

    Males have higher pain treshold because they from childhood all the time expose themself to more pain the females generaly does.

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    yadda, yadda, yadda. Equal Rights are Fine. I prefer women NOT serve in front line units. That is just MY opinion.

    Let's get back to something REALLY important......SEXUAL TENSION......I loves it.

    Lots o tension, then lots o makin up...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I don't know how you got from military to sports but sure, if it's that important to you I'm all for it.
    Talk how you like in front of a woman just don't break the law and it works both ways as far as I know. You too can file a lawsuit against a woman for harassing you, am I correct?
    About the kitchen, I wouldn't send me there if I were you, unless you want a Kosher food poisoning (or want me to taste the meal you have decided to cook for me.)
    You said you would poison me, well that not nice, Hey I bet I've eaten more kosher fish than you have! I eat Rubenstein salmon all the time, so if you were going to eat my food I would give you a can of that "80 grams protein" and sprinkle 20mg of winstrol on it to make sure it absorbs. Hey I heard that all woman in Israel have to serve in the military for 2 years, So did you strap on you marching boots and put in a big pinch of chew?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I think that is TOTAL bull****. A person can whitstand the pain he MUST withstand. I could probably say that if you had to walk around with the sciatic pain I had for half a year you would shot yourself. But the truth is you wouldnt cause you would have to endure it, same if men that "those" pains. The child birth argument many females brings upp falls on the same principle. Males would handle it just as fine if they HAD TO.

    If females can whitstand more pain. Then why generaly speaking is it always the males that can battle pain the best in martial arts and other forms of training. Why is it that when you go into a gym a higer % of the males are busting there asses throught the pain barrier while the females are pussying around with the 2ib db's or walking easily on the treadmill...

    Males have higher pain treshold because they from childhood all the time expose themself to more pain the females generaly does.

    Ok, let me rephrase that. Women are more used to pain and therefore it is easier for them to deal with it. Don't compare the pain of working out to the pain some women go through every month. They are not the same. How many men do you know who faint or take prescriptioned pain killers for the pains they feel when they work out? If you want to find a comparison, how about getting kicked in the balls and walking around with that pain for two days.

    Regarding the gym, that's got nothing to do with tolerating pain, it has to do with dicipline and goals.

  38. #38
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    You think your monthly pain is like getting kicked in the balls and then walking around like that for 2 days? You ever had your balls kicked? I hardly think they are the same amount of pain for the avg female.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    You think your monthly pain is like getting kicked in the balls and then walking around like that for 2 days? You ever had your balls kicked? I hardly think they are the same amount of pain for the avg female.
    I know it's very similar because of how people describe it, and I know it's on the same level.

  40. #40
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    Poll: Guys, how many of you could stand up after you got kicked in the balls??

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