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  1. #1
    BWhitaker's Avatar
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    Why did God do this to us? Tsunami attacks faith

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ke_religion_dc

    It is disturbing on how some of the religious persons attempt to describe this horrible event. One of the main problems in religion, most notably pointed out in the "Problem of Evil," is that of an omnibelevolent omnipotent God knowingly creating a world that will be full of evil. There is not enough room here to describe the arguement, but the only possible way to get out of it is to suscribe to the free will defense saying that humans have complete free will and that is what causes the evil. However, the christian has to concede that this means that no religious intervention is possible since that would negate parts of free will. (this is something that many people fail to realize). However, God created everything knowing the exact consequences of everything...he knew that he would create satan, evil, cancer, and so on. Could God not have created a world with no natural disasters...if he is omnipotent then by rule he would be able to...why didnt he? So why could God not create a world of free will, and no evil. The answers that people have on this humor me...on the surface they seem to be good rebutals, however, at closer look they are quite flawed. So basically God has to have created humans completely out of his control (though not necessarily influence) if they are to maintain free will. Things do not happen for a reason...they are just events that happened. It is pointless to try and look for "gods plan."


    Secondly, the part that is most disturbing are the ones who believe God is punishing us. My arguement is not trying to disprove religion, but it is quite odd that this omnibelevolent being is angered and therefore responds by violence---isnt that exactly what we are not suppossed to do.

    PS---after this tsunami, hells gates will be open for a while considering that christian ideology sends all to hell who do not believe in jesus. So a couple hundred thousand new souls will be checking in over the next few weeks.

  2. #2
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    I see your point but God does not want mindless slaves to him that negates his loving qualitys. The truth is he is omnipitant and does know everything that can happen both ways if you take the left road he knows each and everything that will follow due to its path as well as if you take the right road he knows everything that will follow due to its path.

    Many of the bad things Are a cause of our imperfection and over the years have taken there toll.
    Jesus stated that the end times would be signified by great events worldwide.

    Anyone find it coeincidental(sp) that this year was started off by 6 hurricanes, Huge fires, Earthquakes of giant porportions, Tsunamis, Pests of Locusts in Mexico,Europe, South America, Volcanoes(Mount St helens). There will be more to come as well

    God Does not Directly cause these thing out of punishment to sinners.



    Christian idealogy has taken a turn for the worse when they teach hellfire and brimstone it is not taught in the Bible.

  3. #3
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    It says in the Bible we are not of this earth. This is a weigh station , a proving ground if you will. As Bryan stated he doesn't want slaves he wants for us to freely accept him. Satan has authority over this earth and it's our job to fight him, his job is to take as many as he can before judgement day. So far I think satan is making great headway, until God has had enough.

    As far as those people going to hell I disagree, being uneducated is not a sin. Not believing in something you've nevr been given an opportunity to study is not a sin. In the end we will all be given a choice.

    I am too comp illiterate to cut/past so let me put it down for you one more time.

    If you beleive that we were/are a creation of a greater being, God. How can you say that he doesn't have time or enough power to keep tabs on all of us?

  4. #4
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    I reckon we are all pawns in a big Alien reality show !

  5. #5
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    Talking

    Sean so bitter!

  6. #6
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    1VIC what scripture are you reffering to as we are not of this Earth?

  7. #7
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    I reckon we are all pawns in a big Alien reality show !
    The sad thing is you could prove that we came from Aliens about as much as any pastor could prove we came from God.

  8. #8
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    John 15:19 speaks to the desciples which I fell all beleivers are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Sean so bitter!
    Sorry bro, I was brought up in the Catholic education system ie brainwashed for twelve years. You would be bitter too. !!!

  10. #10
    seanw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    The sad thing is you could prove that we came from Aliens about as much as any pastor could prove we came from God.

    Exactly. Religion and belief in God is all a question of faith. You wont get any hard evidence on the existance of God until you kick the bucket

  11. #11
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    Sean, I won't bash Catholics but I understand exactly where you are coming from!

  12. #12
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    Gos is an alien

  13. #13
    bigcorboskey69 is offline New Member
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    the world is going to hell man i was in the navy for 4 yrs and served in desert storm as a medic i seen alot of **** like my buddys getting killed and women raped what is this world coming to now we have iraq

  14. #14
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    Big, yes the world is going to hell............ it is hell IMO.

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    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Big, yes the world is going to hell............ it is hell IMO.
    So why does he make us go through hell, what's he doing right now as we speak? Sitting on a cloud beating off laughing at the big ass wave he made?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    So why does he make us go through hell, what's he doing right now as we speak? Sitting on a cloud beating off laughing at the big ass wave he made?

    OMG I would be looking for a bolt of lightning if I was you

  17. #17
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    I heard a guy from the US department that monitors geophysical stuff on TV the other day, and they're saying that stuff like earthquakes and volcanos and etc have quieted down in the past few years. But religious alarmists will make as much hay as they can from one big event to scare people into the church.
    Oh well.
    -Tock

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    I heard a guy from the US department that monitors geophysical stuff on TV the other day, and they're saying that stuff like earthquakes and volcanos and etc have quieted down in the past few years. But religious alarmists will make as much hay as they can from one big event to scare people into the church.
    Oh well.
    -Tock
    Well yeah their trying to make a buck just like any other asshole out their. They go to their bread and butter right away though, the old, the poor and the dumb.

  19. #19
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    The problem of evil is the issue most pastors and churches are unwilling to address.

    God himself gives the answer in Isaiah when he states the God creates good and evil.
    Then there is the law of knowledge......how can one know good and not know evil?
    Genesis itself states that man went out of God to know good and evil.

    Free will is a fallacious philosophy trying to give man more credit for his existence and salvation than he deserves........God controls all including evil.......one read of the Bible and you can never ever come to the conclusion that man has free will....it is ludicrous.......accept it, believe it, and believe that God will raise you from the dead like Jesus.....the last Adam..........God does not need man's help......He is teaching us to know good and evil........in the end death will be swallowed up in victory.......God will be all in all.......
    People get all wrapped up in who they think God is sending to hell......when in fact they should be examining themselves to see if they are of the faith......God desires all to be saved.......so you think the will of man stands in the way of God??.......I say to those who pass judgement.....stand aside while you see the Lord of Lords and King of Kings save those souls you would deem worthy of ****ation.

  20. #20
    Odin is offline Member
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    Who is to say the bible is true? The topic of jesus and all his great things never really got going until 400 years after his death, that's a nice little peace of time to think up a bullsh*t story. Relgion was created to comfert people who lost loves ones and wanted hope. If their was a real god all he would need to do is send 1 angel on live tv and the whole world would believe. But no, it needs to be a guessing lottery game, hmm should i be cathlic, jehova witness, mormon, muslim, jewish, budist......? Pray in one hand, and sh*t in the other, and see what hand fills up first!

  21. #21
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    If god was trying to scare us back into strong faith and prayer then why would he cause an earthquake in a part of the world that most of us hardly know anything about? all i'm hearing from people is "we'll i'm glad i'm from texas and that kind of stuff dont happen here!" so where is the lesson exactly?

  22. #22
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    Bryan- I see your point, however, yes God can see both paths because he would create them. So are you saying that God either chooses or cannot great a world with free will and good with no or little evil...ie he could not create a world that would not have natural disasters that will kill over a quarter of a million people. See thats my point. Im not saying that this disproves God really...it just changes the way you have to look at christianity and how it works, though it does raise some doubts. My arguement for agnostic is different from this...ill discuss that some other time.

    1victor- Ok, so keep in mind that God knowingly created satan....you either have to concede that God does not have the power to create a world without satan (but you will then put restrictions to God's power) or you have to say that he chooses not to. Like you said he basically lets satan do this (" until he has enough"),...why would he let this go on if he loves us as much as he does.

    Badgerman- Yes, they dont address it---why is that? Second, as is argued in the problem of evil, there is no logic in saying that there must be evil in order to have good. And even if you can show there was, why does there have to be so much...we would know evil the same even if it was less. By the way, scripture is not really allowed here as proof since that is the exact piece in question, tisk tisk, lol. As far as your last paragraph, my debate on why one should be agnostic (not athiest...thats just the same but opposite) is much larger than this one piece. I am merely making a point on one aspect.

    Odin- im with ya bro

    And its hard to give voice to your words on a computer so dont take my debate as unfriendly

  23. #23
    seanw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Who is to say the bible is true? The topic of jesus and all his great things never really got going until 400 years after his death, that's a nice little peace of time to think up a bullsh*t story. Relgion was created to comfert people who lost loves ones and wanted hope. If their was a real god all he would need to do is send 1 angel on live tv and the whole world would believe. But no, it needs to be a guessing lottery game, hmm should i be cathlic, jehova witness, mormon, muslim, jewish, budist......? Pray in one hand, and sh*t in the other, and see what hand fills up first!
    Allaluah brother, my thoughts exactly !!!

  24. #24
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    There is more to it then can God create a world without natural disasters The point is yes he could but he lets these things happen right now, this is THE TEST!!! Things will not be this way forever. There will be a perfect world after satan is dealt with.

    Evil was recognized not created, if there is no free will then there is no chance for evil and it is being exploited by satan right now to turn against God.

    If you were a multimillionare and had many many "yes" men surounding you all the time and women flocking would you not want to see if they really admire you the person or the power that the money gives you?

    God wants us to prove OUR love for him as well.


    God lets these things go on because he also LOVES satan as well even after those things have taken place. He is letting him have his say right now and allowing him to try and prove his arguments as well.

    God is permitting to all of his creatures

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    There is more to it then can God create a world without natural disasters The point is yes he could but he lets these things happen right now, this is THE TEST!!! Things will not be this way forever. There will be a perfect world after satan is dealt with.

    Evil was recognized not created, if there is no free will then there is no chance for evil and it is being exploited by satan right now to turn against God.

    If you were a multimillionare and had many many "yes" men surounding you all the time and women flocking would you not want to see if they really admire you the person or the power that the money gives you?

    God wants us to prove OUR love for him as well.


    God lets these things go on because he also LOVES satan as well even after those things have taken place. He is letting him have his say right now and allowing him to try and prove his arguments as well.

    God is permitting to all of his creatures
    Well God took my daughter from me when she was just three and a half, so he can stick his test firmly up his arse as far as I am concerned. !!!!

  26. #26
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    Very sorry to hear about that SeanW

  27. #27
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    There is more to it then can God create a world without natural disasters The point is yes he could but he lets these things happen right now, this is THE TEST!!! Things will not be this way forever. There will be a perfect world after satan is dealt with.

    Evil was recognized not created, if there is no free will then there is no chance for evil and it is being exploited by satan right now to turn against God.

    If you were a multimillionare and had many many "yes" men surounding you all the time and women flocking would you not want to see if they really admire you the person or the power that the money gives you?

    God wants us to prove OUR love for him as well.


    God lets these things go on because he also LOVES satan as well even after those things have taken place. He is letting him have his say right now and allowing him to try and prove his arguments as well.

    God is permitting to all of his creatures
    OK?? So god created us to see if we would love him even though their is no real true evidence that he exists? Thank God for them, they came up with these wild stories back in a nice time when their was no TV, or Radio to document anything concrete. Science can prove we came from Ape, and Ape was evolved from other things, Ok if this is true then the stories of Adam and Eve would be false, if one thing this critical was to be false then all would be false. The only things that's kept the bible going this long, is that is was wroten so loosely, that a person can bend it in any directions they want to try prove people like me wrong. Also? when they revise the bible, do they do it to make more understandable or believeable?

  28. #28
    Odin is offline Member
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    BTW Brian2 nice avator or 3 lesbians making out, their hot as hell

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWhitaker
    Secondly, the part that is most disturbing are the ones who believe God is punishing us. My arguement is not trying to disprove religion, but it is quite odd that this omnibelevolent being is angered and therefore responds by violence---isnt that exactly what we are not suppossed to do.
    .
    I dont believe these bad things are God punishing us...yet. The fact that he doesnt stop them and make this world a utopia (ie: heaven) does not make god evil. Though its hard to comprehend now, some day all will understand and some will rejoice the day they went to God, and others will regret they day they went against him. The day will come though and many horrible things will be directly of God. To those who choose the path of the devil, these will be punishments, but to those undecided, hopefully they will see it as an eyeopener and choose against the devil.
    Last edited by max2extreme; 12-31-2004 at 08:57 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    Well God took my daughter from me when she was just three and a half, so he can stick his test firmly up his arse as far as I am concerned. !!!!
    Man i'm truely sorry for your loss.. i don't even want to imagine how you felt and still feel.

    From one father to another..sorry man.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    Christian idealogy has taken a turn for the worse when they teach hellfire and brimstone it is not taught in the Bible.
    It doesnt say "hell has fire" directly but what of these verses:

    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Revelation 19:20)

    "Then He left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, 'Explain to us the Parable Of The Weeds in the field.' He answered, 'The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of The Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

    "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15)

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    The sad thing is you could prove that we came from Aliens about as much as any pastor could prove we came from God.
    Do it. What would you say to prove to me that we came from Aliens. Nothing you say will hold water compared to what we know today, what the bible has said, predictions in the bible, archeological findings that coorespond with the bible.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    So why does he make us go through hell, what's he doing right now as we speak? Sitting on a cloud beating off laughing at the big ass wave he made?
    For man's sin. Right now hes keeping the world together. You know, scientist try to prove what keeps an atom together. They come up with all these experiments and give words to them and say this such and such force is holding an atom together. You know what I say...God. Thats the force holding it together. You know it says on the 7th day, God rested. That doesnt mean he stopped working. If God stopped working everything would be gone. God stopped creating. God works 24/7.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Well yeah their trying to make a buck just like any other asshole out their. They go to their bread and butter right away though, the old, the poor and the dumb.
    Come to my church and say we're tryin to make a buck. Im young, not poor, and 'not dumb'. (pardon, its not "their", its "they are"..hence they're)

  35. #35
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    This just doesnt make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Free will is a fallacious philosophy trying to give man more credit for his existence and salvation than he deserves........God controls all including evil.......one read of the Bible and you can never ever come to the conclusion that man has free will....it is ludicrous
    Where in the bible have you read leads to the conclusion that God controls us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    .......accept it, believe it, and believe that God will raise you from the dead like Jesus.....the last Adam..........God does not need man's help
    It says in the bible all who believe will be in heaven. ANd it says all who dont, will not. Free will does not equal God needs man's help. Where does that sentence fit in? Seems like a random sentence to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    ......He is teaching us to know good and evil........in the end death will be swallowed up in victory.......God will be all in all.......
    People get all wrapped up in who they think God is sending to hell......when in fact they should be examining themselves to see if they are of the faith......God desires all to be saved.......so you think the will of man stands in the way of God??.......I say to those who pass judgement.....stand aside while you see the Lord of Lords and King of Kings save those souls you would deem worthy of ****ation.
    He teaches that heaven has no sin, no evil. Why would we have to know the difference in good and evil if there is going to be no evil? One point here seems like you are saying all go to heaven, then you say "when in fact, they should be examining themselves to see if they are of the faith" why should they examine that if you say all are going to heaven. which do you believe? God does desire all to be saved. Desiring all to be saved does not mean God will save all. Yes, the will of man stands in the way of God if you want to look at it that way. God desires all to come to him. But he gave us free will to make the decision to desire to come to him instead of him forcing us. Could he use his power to 'go against' our will? Of course. He can do anything. But from what I get out of his teachings, its not what he wants. But it is the free will of man that keeps US from making the decision. God has given US the decision to go to him. Its up to you.
    Last edited by max2extreme; 12-31-2004 at 10:53 AM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Who is to say the bible is true? The topic of jesus and all his great things never really got going until 400 years after his death, that's a nice little peace of time to think up a bullsh*t story. Relgion was created to comfert people who lost loves ones and wanted hope. If their was a real god all he would need to do is send 1 angel on live tv and the whole world would believe. But no, it needs to be a guessing lottery game, hmm should i be cathlic, jehova witness, mormon, muslim, jewish, budist......? Pray in one hand, and sh*t in the other, and see what hand fills up first!
    The topic of Jesus and....400 years after his death? So the gospels werent a topic of Jesus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    If god was trying to scare us back into strong faith and prayer then why would he cause an earthquake in a part of the world that most of us hardly know anything about? all i'm hearing from people is "we'll i'm glad i'm from texas and that kind of stuff dont happen here!" so where is the lesson exactly?
    I agree. though i dont know if its the point you are trying to make. I dont think all this is god scaring us back into faith. So there is no lesson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Do it. What would you say to prove to me that we came from Aliens. Nothing you say will hold water compared to what we know today, what the bible has said, predictions in the bible, archeological findings that coorespond with the bible.

    Well that was a joke, but when science proves somthing their are thousands of extremly smart people to prove them wrong. No body can say much about religion cause anytime someone does you get protest's and threats. Hey, have you ever played the game where you form a circle and one person say's somthing and they wisper in on, well... by the time it gets back to you is totally diffrent. Well try converting information from 1 language to the next and 2000 years. Ok they say Jesus died for our sins and that saves us huh? Well how about all the people born before him. Also if you don't believe in Jesus your going to hell, well how many people are born without having the luxury of hearing about him? You use the same all scare tactics that relgions have used for thousands of years, "God will come and you will see cause you will go to hell." God know's how many times I have had an old grayhaired man with Onion breath preach that 4 inchs from my face. Jew's don't believe Jesus was god's son and i'm sure they have more credentials then most for a couple reasons. 1. their a smaller group so they can pass information on to next generations better. 2. Their information back then was in Hebrew so their was no altering of the information since Hebrew was used then and today by them. Jew's have the oldest recorded language today that is still used in today age from what I know? BTW a large percent of jews are Athiest? Ok here my question for you? Why is their so many religions? Why is their not one religion that practices the origanal writings from god? Are all these branch of man alterd since they vary? If so, it not the word of god, its the word of a man, which sin's. So your practicing the words of a sinner if their has been even 1 change at all. I hear that the origanal copy of the bible was 5 times the size of the kings james version.

  39. #39
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    How and Why God Created Man (or at least a close approximation):

    “The endless praises of the choirs of angels had begun to grow wearisome; for, after all, did he not deserve their praise? Had he not given them endless joy? Would it not be more amusing to obtain undeserved praise, to be worshiped by beings whom he tortured? He smiled inwardly, and resolved that the great drama should be performed.

    “For countless ages the hot nebula whirled aimlessly through space. At length it began to take shape, the central mass threw off planets, the planets cooled, boiling seas and burning mountains heaved and tossed, from black masses of cloud hot sheets of rain deluged the barely solid crust. And now the first germ of life grew in the depths of the ocean, and developed rapidly in the fructifying warmth into vast forest trees, huge ferns springing from the damp mould, sea monsters breeding, fighting, devouring, and passing away. And from the monsters, as the play unfolded itself, Man was born, with the power of thought, the knowledge of good and evil, and the cruel thirst for worship.

    And Man saw that all is passing in this mad, monstrous world, that all is struggling to snatch, at any cost, a few brief moments of life before Death’s inexorable decree.

    And Man said: ‘There is a hidden purpose, could we but fathom it, and the purpose is good; for we must reverence something, and in the visible world there is nothing worthy of reverence.’ And Man stood aside from the struggle, resolving that God intended harmony to come out of chaos by human efforts. And when he followed the instincts which God had transmitted to him from his ancestry of beasts of prey, he called it Sin, and asked God to forgive him. But he doubted whether he could be justly forgiven, until he invented a divine Plan by which God’s wrath was to have been appeased. And seeing the present was bad, he made it yet worse, that thereby the future might be better. And he gave God thanks for the strength that enabled him to forgo even the joys that were possible. And God smiled: and when he saw that Man had become perfect in renunciation and worship, he sent another sun through the sky, which crashed into Man’s sun; and all returned again to nebula.

    “‘Yes,’ he murmured, ‘it was a good play; I will have it performed again.”’

  40. #40
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    max2extreme is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    Well God took my daughter from me when she was just three and a half, so he can stick his test firmly up his arse as far as I am concerned. !!!!
    God took my daughter too. Im sorry for your loss. A lot of people feel the same as you. Someone has to be blamed. Most people point the finger at God as doing this out of evil. I go thru life believing that there is a reason for everything and that though bad things happen, something good comes out of it, even if I dont see it at that time, or ever for that matter. I mourned for my loss. But there must be a reason. Perhaps God needed my daughter as an angel for something. I dont know. But we are so ignorant as man. I cant point the finger at God and curse him for my loss on this little planet during this little 80 year life span of mine when I have no clue for the reason and the fact that in 60 years, Ill see my daughter again for eternity.

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