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  1. #1
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    My thoughts on Hell. FORWARNED, its not short.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRYAN2
    Warning long post!!!

    What of Ecclesiates 9:5, 10 "For the living know that they will die;but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, bor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, wither thou goest."
    This means the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything.They no longer have any thoughts,as the bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." Psalms 146:3, 4 at death a mans spirit, his life force,which is sustained by breathing "goes out." no longer exists,no senses.According to the bible the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.

    SHEOL AND HADES
    Websters says english word hell is equal to hebrew worb sheol and greek work hades.King James translated sheol 31 times as hell 31 times as hades 3 times as pit.Catholic Duoay version translated sheol 64 times as hell. Cristian Greek Scriptures translated hades as hell each 10 times. King James translates sheol three different ways shows grave,pit,hell mean same thing.If it means common grave of mankind, it could not mean place of fiery torture. Sheol and Hades do mean the same thing looking at psalms 16:10 in hebrew and Acts 2:31 in Greek, Psalms uses Sheol and acts uses Hades. Notice Jesus himself was in Hades/hell. So God tormented Christ in a hell of fire? Of course not! He was simply in the grave.

    Jacob mourned for son Joseph, who he thought had been killed, he said: "I shall go down mourninh to my son into Sheol!" Genesis 37:35.King James translates in to sheol and Douay version Hell. Did Jacob believe his son was in a place of eternal torment and fire and did he want to go there and meet him?Or he wanted to as well go to the grave and die himself.

    Job prayed to go there Job 14:13 He just wanted to die so that his suffering might end, not go to a place of eternal torment and fire.
    In all places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life,activity,or torment, rather it is linked with death and inactivity.

    When Jonah was swallowed by a big fish to save him from drowning.He prayed out to Jehovah Out of the belly of Sheol/hell Jonah 2:2 fishes belly not a place of fiery torment but his grave.

    Jesus was dead in his grave for 3 days. Bible states "His soul was not left in hell... this Jesus hath God raised up." Acts 2:31, 32, king james.

    Your Revelations quote state that in Fact all in hell/the grave will be resurected and judged accordingly.

    GENHENNA AND THE LAKE OF FIRE

    There are 12 verses in the Christian Greek scriptures where King James Version uses "hell" to translate Genhenna. In the Hebrew scriptures Genhenna is the "valley of Hinnom." Remember Hinnom was the name of the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time King Josiah had this Valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice. 2Kings 23:10 It was turned into a huge garbage dump.

    So the time jesus was on Earth Gehenna was Jerusalems garbage dump. Fires wgere kept burning there by adding brimstone to burn up the garbage. Smiths Dictionary of the Bible, vol 1, explains: "It became the common lay stall(garbage dump) of the city, where dead bodies of crminals, and the carcassas of animals, and every other kind of filth were cast." No live creature however were cast there.

    Knowing about their citys dump Jerusalem inhabitants understood what Jesus meant when he told wicked religious leaders:" Serpents , Offspring of vipers, How are you to flee from the judgement of Gehenna? Matthew 23:33 Jesus plainly did not mean that those religious leaders would be tormented. Why?, when the Israelites were burning their children alive in the valley, God said that to do such a horrible thing had never come up into his heart!! So it is clear that Jesus was using Gehenna as a fitting symbol of complete and everlasting destruction! he meant they were not worthy of resurection. and people understood that those going to Gehenna would be destroyed forever.

    What is the LAKE OF FIRE
    It is not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destuction. Notice how the Bible staes itself that death and hades itself were hurled into the lake of fire. "This means the second death, the lake of fire." Yes, the lake of fire means "second death," the death from which there is NO resurection. It is evident that this "lake" is a symbol, because death and hell are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot litteraly be burned. But they can and will be done away with or destroyed.

    It states the Devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire. Since those thrown into the "lake of fire" go into "second death" from which there is no resurection, they are so to speak, jailed forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternaty. The wicked are not literally tormented because when a person is dead he is completley out of existence. He is not consciopus of anything
    ************************************************** *******

    Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10. Anyone who is among the living has hope, even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead kow nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

    10: Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

    9:4-6 is talking about comparing the living to the dead and how the living have an advantage because they still have opportunities to turn to Christ and the dead do not. The living know they will die and because there are 2 places they can go at death, they can still make choices. The dead can not secure compensation for their labors and no longer share in life on this earth. In verse 10, Solomon is saying that though much of life is futile, one must grasp its opportunities and use them to the fullest in serving God. There will be no such opportunity in the grave. Each man has a particular work to do, which is accomplished in this life, or not at all. These verses do not describe a hell or a state of hell, more so they are like saying 'seize the day' because after this life, nothing matters, you are either in heaven with jesus, or in hell with lucifer.

    Psalm 146: 3-4 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day thri plans come to nothing.

    This is basically saying the exact same thing. When these princes, these influential people's spirit departs, all is done. Nothing can change. They are either going to heaven or hell. By returning to the ground, i can see where you would see this as meaning, they return to the ground and then thats it. But it is wrong. What returns to the ground? The body. Not the spirit. How do I know this? Because of one word... "return". in Genesis 2:7 it reads "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living being." So the body of man came from the dust of the ground, from the earth and the spirit of man came from the breath of God, for it wasnt until he breathed into man's nostrils did man become a living being. So back to psalms, this is saying that the body returns to the earth, but it doesnt say anything about the spirit, which is what would either go to heaven or hell. so again, this is not talking about a hell or a state of being after death. just the body returns to where it came from, the earth.
    ************************************************** *******
    The hebrew word sheol does not just mean hell (used in the OT). It is translated as

    "hell" 31 times, as in Psalm 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

    "grave" 31 times, as in Ecclesiastes 9:10, “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

    "pit" 3 times, as in Job 17:16, “They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.”

    But actually, the Hebrew word “Sheol” does not mean either “Hell,” “grave,” or “pit.” It means “the unseen world” or “the place of departed spirits.” Notice how it is defined:

    Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary says “Sheol” is “the world of the dead.” Young's Analytical Concordance says that “Sheol” is “the unseen state.” Smiths Bible Dictionary says that “Sheol” is “always the abode of departed spirits.” Fausset's Bible Dictionary and Encyclopedia says that “Sheol” is “the common receptacle of the dead.”

    So Sheol does not strictly refer to Hell, but to the place of departed spirits, irrespective of whether saved or lost. Sheol is simply a term meaning “the state of the dead in general, without any restriction of happiness or misery” (Smith). In many instances where the word is used, however, the reference is clearly to that compartment of Sheol where the wicked are punished. For example, Psalm 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
    ************************************************** ********

    “Hades” is the Greek word in the New Testament which corresponds to “Sheol” and is translated

    “Hell” 10 times, as in Matthew 11:23, “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.”

    “Grave” —1 time, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (I Cor 15:55).


    But “Hades,” like Sheol, does not strictly or exclusively refer to Hell. “Hades” is the corresponding Greek word to the Hebrew word “Sheol,” and both have the same meaning.

    Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament says that “Hades” is “the place [state] of departed souls.” Young's Concordance says “the unseen world.” A.T. Robertson, world-renowned as a Greek scholar says “Hades is technically the unseen world, the Hebrew Sheol, the land of the departed”

    The reason psalms uses sheol and acts uses hades is because the whole OT uses sheol and NT uses hades.
    ************************************************** ********

    You are pretty much right about "Gehenna', used 12 times and strictly translated as Hell. 11 out of these 12 times it is used by Jesus. If you want quick look up of where this term is use by Jesus, they are: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.

    The word “Gehenna” is of Hebrew origin derived from “valley” and “Hinnom.” “Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom where the fire burned continually” (A.T. Robertson). The Valley of Hinnom was a place near Jerusalem where Ahaz introduced the worship of fire gods, the sun, Baal and Moloch. The Jews under ungodly Manasseh offered their children as burnt offerings in this idolatrous worship (Jer 7:31). This cruel worship was finally abolished, and later Josiah made the place a receptacle of dead carcasses and the bodies of malefactors (criminals), in which worms were continually gendering. A perpetual fire was kept to consume the putrifying matter. The place was still in existence at the time of Christ, and the Saviour illustrated somewhat the condition in eternity, in “the Gehenna of fire,” by reference to this valley. So, in bringing this up, it is supporting the fact that hell is indeed a place of fire and torment. The Lord Jesus referred to Hell as the “Gehenna of fire,” into which “both body and soul” will be cast. He said that it is “unquenchable fire” and that “the worm [man] dieth not” in the flame, just as the three Hebrew children of Daniel's day did not die when cast into the fiery furnace (Dan 3).
    ************************************************** *******
    So now, using all of the above, Im going to give some verses actually about hell and why I believe that it is a place of fire and torment and brimstone.

    Matthew 13:49-50, “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

    Revelation 9:2, “And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.”

    Revelation 14:10-11, “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

    Revelation 20:10, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false pro- phet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

    Revelation 19:20, “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” (Also: Rev 20:14,15, 21:8; Matt 5:22, 18:8, 25:41; II Peter 3:7; Jude 7).

    ************************************************** *******
    The Greek word for “everlasting” is aionios. The word means ageless—without beginning, without ending, or both. It is used in Romans 16:26 of God: “the everlasting [aionios] God.” This use of the word should clearly show us the meaning of the word “everlasting.” The Greek scholar A.T. Robertson says of the word: “It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language.”

    The very same word (aionios) is used to describe the future life of the righteous and the future punishment of the wicked in Matthew 25:46, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” If the punishment of the wicked is limited, we may likewise limit the life of the righteous! But that cant be.
    ************************************************** *******
    This phrase, “for ever and ever” (eis tous aionas aionon) , occurs 20 times in the New Testament: of God (16 times); of saints' future blessedness (1 time); of punishment of the wicked and Satan (3 times). Is it likely that the phrase means “absolute eternity” 17 times, and only a limited period the other three times? Nonsense!
    ************************************************** *******
    Death is NEVER an annihilation, or a ceasing to exist. It is always a separation.

    Adam's death was a separation from God (Gen 2:17;3:23,24).

    Christ's death was a separation from the Father (Matt 27:46).

    Physical death is a separation of the soul from the body (Luke 16:22,23).

    The second death is the final and eternal separation of the unsaved in the “lake of fire” (Rev 20:11-15). That the second death is not annihilation, see Revelation 19:20 and 20:10.

    Neither does “destruction” mean annihilation. Something can be destroyed without being annihilated. There is much destruction of property, goods, buildings, etc., in war, but such things are not annihilated.

    It will certainly be destruction for the unsaved in Hell—destruction of peace, joy, happiness, pleasure, rest; destruction from all that the saints of God have in Heaven, but no annihilation. The unsaved still exist
    ************************************************** *******

    I know this is long, but I hope you read it all and I look forward to your thoughts, even if you have none at the moment, perhaps just a word that says you read this and are thinking about it. For these reasons, I believe that in death, the body goes back to earth. The soul goes to one of 2 places, heaven with Jesus or hell with Lucifer. And Hell is indeed a place of fire, torture, torment, and will last for eternity, just as the just will be with God in heaven for eternity.


    -Max

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    seanw's Avatar
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    Jesus max do you have a life ? How long did it take you to put that together. Very interesting though, sadly I will be doing the dancing with Lucifer thing when I croke.

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    It took me a bit to find everything I wanted to say. The thing I dont understand Seanw, and maybe you can shed some light for me. I see 2 types of people. Those who believe in a heaven/hell, and those who do not. People who say "I will be in hell" must believe in a heaven/hell of some sorts or else they wouldnt make such a statement. If you believe in heaven/hell, then you must believe in the rewards of heaven and the torments of hell...or at the VERY least the rewards of heaven. Why choose Lucifer? or even say you will be there, because it is a choice of man to go to heaven or hell. Your acts thus far do not condemn you. Every second, man has the opportunity to change, up until death. So its not your past that sends you to hell, but your future. What do you think?

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    and HAHA, i do have a life... Religion, bodybuilding, sports, computers. pretty much in that order. I used to have the life of partying and drinking, but ive grown out of it and it doesnt interest me anymore.

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    Geez, that was as long as hell . . .
    --Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    It took me a bit to find everything I wanted to say. The thing I dont understand Seanw, and maybe you can shed some light for me. I see 2 types of people. Those who believe in a heaven/hell, and those who do not. People who say "I will be in hell" must believe in a heaven/hell of some sorts or else they wouldnt make such a statement. If you believe in heaven/hell, then you must believe in the rewards of heaven and the torments of hell...or at the VERY least the rewards of heaven. Why choose Lucifer? or even say you will be there, because it is a choice of man to go to heaven or hell. Your acts thus far do not condemn you. Every second, man has the opportunity to change, up until death. So its not your past that sends you to hell, but your future. What do you think?
    OK so what do I really think, well its kind of complicated, I was brought up a Catholic but in a time when corporal pumishement ruled in school. I got strapped if I didnt go to Mass on Sunday by the Nun's. So I was what I consider, brainwashed for twelve years>. The way they tought religion was through violence, and because of that, and also because the Catholic church has changed the rules so much over the years, I have rejected religion out of hand. Because of the brainwashing though, I still have doubts, hense the Lucifer comments. Now for the bad bit, I lost my three and a half year old daughter to cancer about seven years ago, and if I had any thought that there was a compasionate God I lost it the day she died in my arms. Is there a Heaven or Hell, I have no idea, and neither does anybody else. Its all a matter of faith to me, a faith I lost a long time ago.

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    Tock I see you there! Give me some insight of yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Tock I see you there! Give me some insight of yours.


    No! I can't . . .

    I'm running low on insight, it's time to get my eyeglass prescription renewed . . .

    --Tock

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    Very Interesting I will have to study on your answers to cross reference.

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    The reference of Ecclesiasties is making a comparison to the living and the dead but it states they have no wisdom nor knowledge meaning no thoughts whatsoever. But it does NOT clearly state that there will be two places to go once dead.

    when they are dead both humans and animals are in this same state of unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point: "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from dust, and they are all returning to dust." EC 3:19, 20 The "spirit" that makes animals alive is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

    The Soul Dies

    Some persons have said that what makes man different from the animals is that man has a soul but the animals do not. However, Genesis 1:20 and 30 says that God created "living souls" to live in the waters, and that the animals have "life as a soul." In these verses some Bibles use the words "creature" and "life" instead of "soul," but their marginal readings agree that the word "soul" is what apears in the origional language.

    The Bible references to animals as souls in Numbers 31:28 there it speaks of "one soul out of 500, of humankind and the herd and of the asses and of the flock". Since animals are souls when they die there souls die. Revelation 16:3 "Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea"
    Never in the Bible does it say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die."All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive,"Psalm 22:29.

    The soul that is sinning it - itself will die Ezekial 18:4 and 20
    Joshua 10:28-39 seven different places where the soul is spoken of being killed or destroyed.

    In a prophesy about Jesus Christ, the Bible says: He poured out his soul to the very death......and he himself carried the very sin of many people. Isaiah 53:12

    The teaching of the Ransom proves it was a soul(Adam) that sinned, and that in order to ransom humans there had to be a corresponding soul(a man) sacrified. Christ, by pouring out his soul unto death,' provided the ransom price. Jesus, the human soul died.

    The "spirit" is something different from our soul. The spirit is our life force. This life-force is in each of the bodys cells of both humans and animals. It is sustaine dor kept alive by breathing. What does it mean when the Bible says at death the dust returns to the earth.....and the spirit itself returns to the True God who gave it? Ecclesiastes 12:7

    At death the life-force in time leaves all of the bodys cells and the body begins to decay. But this does not mean that our life-force litterally leaves earth and travels through space to God. Rather, the spirit returns to God in the sense that now our hope for the future life rests entirely with God. Onl by his power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that we live again. Psalm 104:29,30

    More to come

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    So you are in agreement that sheol and hades refer to the common place of the dead or the grave.

    In Gehenna No living animals or creatures were pitched into gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. Hence this place could never symbolize an invisable realm where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire. If such a dead body was thrown in and landed upon a ledge of the deep ravine their putrefying flesh became infested with worms, or maggots, which did not die until they had consumed the fleshy parts, leaving only skeletons. Because the dead criminals were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurection, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his diciples to symbolize everlasting destruction,annihillation from God's universe, or "second death" an eternal punishment.
    Daniel 3 is totally different story this didnt refer to a place after death but to what King Nebuchadnezzar did to them because they did not bow down to his golden image and worship it and God sent an angel to protect them from the fire of the LITERAL FIREY FURNACE.



    Revelations 9:2 is speaking of the abyss not hell only Satan and his minions are ever spoken in the Bible as being held here never man.

    This is where I can deffenatley see your views in Revelations.But again my view of the Lake of fire is everlasting death and destruction Annihilation is just the term I used.

    Revelation 14:10-11, “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be 1tormented with 2fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”


    1Revelation 20:10 And the devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur.What is the LAKE OF FIRE
    It is not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destuction. Notice how the Bible states itself that death and hades itself were hurled into the lake of fire. "This means the second death, the lake of fire." Yes, the lake of fire means "second death," the death from which there is NO resurection. It is evident that this "lake" is a symbol, because death and hell are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot litteraly be burned. But they can and will be done away with or destroyed.

    2Revelation 21:8 But as for cowards and thoses without faith.........their portion will be in the lake of fire and sulphur this means the second death. (Eternal death NO resurrection.)

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    Eternal & Forever in the Bible
    nm89» Do you know that eternal and forever in most translations of the Bible are incorrectly translated from words that mean age? Since the early fifth century AD and probably long before, this major inaccuracy in translation has filtered and shaded most doctrines of the Bible.

    Olam & Aionios
    nm90» In the Old Testament the Hebrew olam [ ~l'A[ ] is the most common word translated as 'forever.' In the New Testament the Greek aionios [ aivw,nio,j ] is the most common word translated as 'forever' or 'eternal.' In Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible the words 'everlasting' and 'forever' are most often translated from the Hebrew olam or the Greek aionios.

    nm91» Even though most translations of the Bible incorrectly translate the Hebrew olam or the Greek aionios in scripture, there are translations that correctly use them. Translations such as Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible and Rotherham's The Emphasized Bible do use 'age' or 'age-abiding' instead of 'forever.' You will find that in our papers we use the words 'age' or 'agelasting' or 'aeonian' instead of the inaccurate 'forever' or 'everlasting' or 'eternal.' Why do most translations use forever, everlasting, and eternal (or comparable words in other languages) while we use 'age' or 'agelasting' or 'aeonian'?

    Vague Time Period
    nm92» We will absolutely show in this paper that the Hebrew olam means age or agelong or an eon of indefinite length, and that the Greek aion and its adjective aionios mean an age of unknown length or agelong or aeonian. The main and only real meaning of these words is an age or eon of unknown length. The words in and of themselves tell us nothing about duration, or the beginning or end of the age. In context they may indicate "an age (of foreverness)" when it is speaking of an age that will not end, an endless age. But here they only indicate "an age (of foreverness)" by auxiliary words that clarify their normal vague meaning: the word 'age' by itself never tells us the length of the age or the beginning or end of the age. Without auxiliary words that specify its length, the word 'age' or 'eon' is always unclear as to its length.

    ****ing, Unforgiving Mindset
    nm93» But there is a desire in mankind that wants and needs to believe that the Hebrew olam and the Greek aionios mean forever or eternal, and because of this they ignore the doctrine of forgiveness and the great all powerfulness of God.

    nm94» This mindset traps mankind into paradoxes that make God contradictory and impotent. Mankind has its 'hell' theories where a supposedly good, forgiving, and almighty God puts humans in a hell-fire that somehow burns their fleshly body for ever and ever: their god does not terminate their life, he tortures them forever. They say, "those who don't believe or commit themselves to Christ, are ****ed forever." But all one has to do is to translate olam and aionios into 'agelong' or 'aeonian,' as we did in the BeComingOne Bible, and many of the great paradoxes of Biblical doctrine will end, and the great plan of God can be clearly seen. But this isn't easy for many. They insist on holding on to their tangled doctrines.

    nm95» I once believed in this distortion. But once I learned of the mistranslation in 1969 it was obvious that major doctrines of the Bible were being taught incorrectly. There is a large difference between the word age and the word forever. Age normally indicates limits (most ages have beginnings and/or ends), but forever and eternal always indicate no limits and no end. In this paper we will go into much more detail on the mistranslated words olam and anionios, which are incorrectly translated into 'forever,' 'everlasting,' and 'eternal.' This is very important

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    Continued:


    Contradictions
    nm96» First let's look at some paradoxical translations caused by the incorrect translation of olam and aionios. If we translate these words correctly there are no paradoxes.

    Sacrifices Forever?
    nm97» Some sacrifices, offerings, and rituals of the Old Testament were olam or aionios sacrifices. (Note: Lev 3:17, 6:18, 7:36, 10:9,15, 16:29, 17:17, 23:14, 24:3; Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:8, 19:10; etc.) If olam or aionios mean forever or eternal why are these sacrifices, offerings, and rituals not now being performed? They are not still being performed because they were for an age, not forever. Christ abolished them by his perfect sacrifice (Heb 10:10-14).

    Circumcision Forever?
    nm98» If olam or aionios means forever or eternal why are not Christians following this olam or aionios covenant of circumcision:

    "My covenant shall be in your flesh for an olam [or aionios] covenant" (Gen 17:13).
    If olam or aionios mean forever or eternal, how can anyone unbound such a regulation? Of course olam and aionios only mean age, thus the reason Christians are no longer bond by physical circumcision (note Acts 15:5-29; 1Cor 7:18-19; Gal 5:1-4,6; Col 3:11).

    Slaves Forever?
    nm99» If olam or aionios mean forever or eternal, then according to the law of the Old testament, some can be made slaves forever or for eternity (Lev 25:46; Deut 15:17). Of course there are no forever slaves: olam and aionios do not mean forever, they speak of an age.

    Before Eternity?
    nm100» If aionios means forever or eternal how could there have been any time before eternity, "before the times of eternities [aionion, plural of aionios]" (Greek text, 2Tim 1:9)?

    More Than One Eternity?
    nm101» Is there more than one eternity? If the Greek aionios or the Hebrew olam mean eternal, then according to 2Tim 1:9 there was a time before eternitieS. How can there be more than one eternity. There are at least two other places in the Greek New Testament that has aionios in its plural form:

    "But the things invisible are aionia" (2Cor 4:16). [This Greek aionia is the plural form of aionios (Analytical Greek Lex., Zondervan)..]
    "Which God, who cannot lie, promised before times of aionion" (Titus 1:2). [According to the Lexicon aionion here is in its plural form.]
    nm102» The Hebrew word olam is also translated forever or everlasting. Olam is also found in its plural form in such verses as in Pss 77:6, 145:13; Isa 26:4, 45:17. Is there more than one eternity? Of course not.

    nm103» The Greek aionios and the Hebrew olam are speaking about an age or ages of secret or hidden or unknown time lengths. We can only ascertain the time periods of each olam and aionios by other words in context that explain to us what age the Bible is speaking about. The words olam or aionios in and of themselves tell us nothing about the duration, or the beginning or the ending of the age. We only know that the age of Satan will end because of scripture. We only know the new and coming age of the True God will not end because of scripture. And we can know through scripture that there are ages within the great age of God just as there are ages within Satan's age.

    Never Die?
    nm104» In John 8:51 and verse 52 we see contradictions: "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him [unto Jesus], Now we know that you are possessed of a demon. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and you say, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death." And in John 11:26 we see a similar contradiction: "And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die."

    nm105» In this translation Christ seems to say that if one kept his words and believed in him that such a person would never die. But by reading the New Testament we know that those who do keep his word and that do believe in him do die. A contradiction? No! It is a mistranslation.

    nm106» The English word "never" in these verses was mistranslated. It should have been translated as follows: "no not death should he behold into the age" - John 8:51; "no not should he taste of death into the age" - John 8:52; "no not [anyone believing] should die into the age" - John 11:26. Double negatives in Greek adds emphasis to the negative. "No not" can be translated "absolutely not." Thus "absolutely not should anyone who believes in Christ die into the age."

    nm107» These scriptures speak about an age and that into that age or in that age those who believe in Christ (those who keep his word) will not, absolutely not, die. This great age begins with the 1000 year age as other scripture indicates (see Reward for Christians [NM 11]). When we translate aion literally these scriptures make sense. But when we translate it as some think it ought to be translated we come up with contradictions. In the above three scriptures "never" was mistranslated for the Greek words that literally meant "no not" and "age."

    David's Throne Forever?
    nm108» If olam or aionios mean forever or eternal, then David and Solomon's thrones should have lasted forever (2Sam 7:12-13,16; 1Kgs 9:5). Of course this kingdom of David and Solomon lasted only for an age. It is the Spiritual Seed of David that will establish the kingdom in the endless age or endless olam or aionios.

    Cities and Land Destroyed Forever?
    nm109» If olam or aionios mean forever or eternal, then there are cities and lands that forever or for eternity will be in ruins (Isa 25:2, 32:14; Jer 18:15, 25:9,12, 49:13,33, 51:26,62; Ezek 26:21, 27:36, 28:19, 35:9; etc.). But this cannot be true because when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, the earth will be renewed and eventually created totally new (Pss 104:30; Isa 61:4; Ezek 36:10-11; Amos 9:14; Rev 21:5; etc.). Of course, since olam or aionios only indicate an age, these cities and lands will not be forever ruined, but will be renewed and the people of these former cities will be resurrected.

    Present Earth Forever?
    nm110» In such places as Eccl and Pss 104:5 it speaks about the earth standing for olam or aionios. But Christ said that heaven and earth would pass away (Mat 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). The present earth stands not forever, but for an olam or aionios, that is, it stands for an age. But after that age it will be totally created new (Rev 21:5).

    Land Forever?
    nm111» If olam or aionios means forever or eternal, then Israel would have continually and forever possessed the land (Note Gen 13:15; see Greek trans.). But if olam or aionios means agelong, the Gen 13:15 promise means that Israel would possess the land during an age. This is what happened: physical Israel did possess the land for an age - not forever. The true higher meaning of this scripture is that the Spiritual Israel will possess the land during the age (olam) of the True God.

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    continued:


    Aeonian or Agelasting Meaning In Harmony With Scripture
    nm112» When the Greek aion, its adjective aionios, and the Hebrew olam are translated anything but age or aeonian or agelasting, contradictions occur in scripture. But when these words are correctly translated a clear meaning is projected to the reader. In all our papers on doctrine we always use the correct translation of these words because it is the best way to translate these words. And because throughout our papers and in the BeComingOne Bible we have translated "aeonian" as it should be translated, we project to you the mercy of God and the great plan of the God. The True God is not a ****ing forever God. Our God is a God of love and forgiveness. He punishes, but He also will eventually save all. See our paper "All Saved" [NM 13] for there are many scriptures in the Bible where it says that all will eventually be saved. There is/was a purpose for evil. There is hope for all.

    Hebrew Meaning of Olam
    nm113» In Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament, the Hebrew word most often translated "forever" or "everlasting" is olam.

    [or alam, Strong's # 5956 & # 5957; 'owlan, #5769; 'eylowm, # 5865; see also 'ad, # 5703. Note that the word is spelled in Hebrew differently at different times because of prefixes and suffixes attached to it.]

    From the Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Gesenius, it shows that the Hebrew word olam (Strong's # 5956) has the meaning of a hidden age or hidden time specifically "hidden time, long."

    nm114» From the Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Benjamin Davidson (Pub., by Zondervan, l970), it shows that the Hebrew word olam means a hidden time or secret time or age.

    nm115» This word was first used in the Bible to describe the hidden or secret age that Adam and Eve missed because of their sin: "and live into olam" (Gen 3:22). Its basic meaning concerns a hidden or secret age, or simply an age of unknown length. At the time Gen 3:22 was spoken, Adam and Eve were only alive a short while. At that time Adam and Eve did not and could not understand time. Time is something one learns to understand through living in time. See "Reason Why" paper [NM 20] to understand how one learns.

    Greek Meaning of Aion
    nm116» In Greek, the language of the New Testament, the Greek words most often translated "forever" or "everlasting" or "eternal" are aion or aionios. (Note: both of these words are spelled somewhat differently in the New Testament text depending on the usage in the sentence.)

    nm117» From Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, the Greek word aion is said to mean age or a human lifetime.

    nm118» From The Analytical Greek Lexicon (Pub. Zondervan), the Greek word aion is said to mean "a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age."

    nm119» From William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, the meaning of aion is "time, age."

    nm120» From the Lexicons in Young's and Strong's concordances, the Greek word aion also is indicated as meaning an age or time.

    nm121» From Wuest's Word Studies, Volume 8, Studies in the Vocabulary, under "world," we see concerning aion the following:

    "Aion which comes from aio [it is debatable whether aion came from aio] 'to breathe,' means 'a space or period of time,' especially 'a lifetime, life.' It is used of one's time of life, age, the age of man, an age, a generation." And in the same place, "as to aion, the papyri speak of a person led off to death, the literal Greek being 'led off from aion life.' A report of a public meeting speaks of a cry that was uttered by the crowd, namely, 'The Emperors forever' (aion). It is also found in the sense of 'a period of life."'
    nm122» In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, aion was used for olam in such verses as Pss 90:2: "from everlasting to everlasting ... "; Hebrew has it: 'from olam to olam; and Greek has it: "from the aion until the aion;" the literal text of the Emphasized Bible has it: "from age unto age";

    Meaning of aionios
    nm123» The Greek word aionios is merely an adjective that comes from the root aion. While aion means "age," aionios, being an adjective, means "agelasting," or "aeonian," or "agelong." When the Septuagint was translated, the translators used in many cases the Greek word aionios for the Hebrew word olam.

    nm124» For example the Greek aionios was used for the Hebrew olam in Gen 13:15: "For all the land which you see I will give to you, and to your seed during olam."

    nm125» Or again in Gen 3:22: "And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the tree of life and eat and live into olam [Greek aiona]."

    nm126» And again, "Every man child among you shall be circumcised ... my covenant shall be in your flesh for an olam [or aionion] covenant" (Gen 17:10,13).

    nm127» Thus, from the above scripture and many others, we see the Greek aionios must be a synonym for the Hebrew word olam. To ascertain the meaning of aionios we can look to the meaning of olam. As shown above olam means basically a hidden or secret age or time. Thus aionios also must mean a hidden age or time or an unknown age or time. And so it is, the basic meaning of aionios is an indeterminate time or age. The word aionios can be translated as "agelasting" or "aeonian" or "agelong." It speaks of an age which has an unknown length and which begins and ends at an unknown time.

    nm128» From William Barclay's New Testament Words we note the following concerning the Greek word aionios. Barclay says aionios is an adjective formed from the noun aion. "In classical Greek this word aion has three main meanings. It means a life-time . . .. Then it comes to mean an age, a generation, or an epoch . . . But then the word comes to mean a very long space of time." Then Barclay's goes on and tries to say that the "strange" word aionios somehow means eternal and gives some examples from Plato to back up his contention.

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    I know this is long....but one more



    Magic Word
    nm129» One question will do here. How can an adjective that came from a word that means age, come to mean eternal? It would be comparable to the word "some" (i.e. some of time) coming to mean "all" (i.e. all of time). You cannot correctly use the adjective of age, which is agelasting or aeonian, as if it meant forever. The whole idea that aionios means eternal or everlasting is ludicrous. It is a lie. It is magical in an evil way. That lie has twisted scripture, and has made true doctrine in the Bible almost impossible to see. It has put a blindfold over peoples' eyes.

    Aionios in Context
    nm130» Barclay gives a few examples of Plato using aionios as if it meant eternal.

    "The most significant of all the Platonic passages is in the Timaeus 37d. There he speaks about the Creator and the universe which he has created, 'the created glory of the eternal [aionios] gods."'
    To Barclay, for some reason, because Plato used aionios in connection with "gods," it is some kind of proof that aionios means eternal. According to this reasoning since God ("gods") is eternal, then aionios must mean eternal. But this overlooks the fact that, yes, God in someway was/is perpetual (His power, Rom 1:20), but also God may in some sense also be or relate to an aeonian (aionios) time. Just because the word aionios is used in connection with "gods" doesn't give it the meaning of eternal. Furthermore, what do Plato's writings have to do with our God and the definition of His "eternalness"? Plato was speaking in the above example about gods, not God. Plato's writings were not inspired by God: they are full of myth and faulty thinking.

    nm131» Others like Barclay try to make the adjective aionios ("agelasting"), which comes from the noun aion ("age"), mean "forever," "everlasting," and "eternal." They say aionios means "eternal" because in context of its usage it is used as if it literally means "everlasting." They call the Greek word aionios, "strange." And to me it is strange that a word that is derived from a word that means "age" should somehow mean "everlasting."

    nm132» We will give you hereafter two of their "best" arguments in favor of the idea that aionios means "everlasting," and then we will refute their wrong reasoning. These same arguments were used by Augustine in the fourth-fifth century AD (see below).




    Context Argument One
    Aionios God; Olam God
    nm133» This argument deals with the usage of aionios in connection with God. We will only examine this argument of context by referring to the relevant Biblical text usage. To try and say aionios means eternal because Plato or Aristotle seems to use it that way is off the mark. We are only interested in how the Bible uses the word aionios, not how some Greek philosopher seems to use it.


    nm134» Rom 16:26: "the aionios God." Rom 16:26 speaks of the aeonian God or the God of the aeonian time. Notice that Gen 21:33 speaks of the God of olam and Isa 40:28 speaks of the God of olam. These verses were translated by the Greek aionios in the Greek text. Somehow this usage of aionios (or olam) is proof positive to many that aionios means "everlasting." But the Greek word aionios is simply an adjective that comes from the noun aion, which means age. The literal meaning of aionios is "aeonian" or "agelong." The book of Romans is speaking about one aspect of God. Somehow God is "aeonian." Of course since God is Spirit (John 4:24), and since spirits or angels do not die (Luke 20:36), then God will not die. God is immortal (1Tim 1:17). God's power and Godship was/is/will-be continuous (Rom 1:20, Greek aidios). But Rom 16:26 tells us that in some way God is aeonian.

    nm135» In one aspect God is aeonian. The true God is aeonian in the respect that He rules through Jesus Christ as King of kings beginning in the age of 1000 years (Rev 19:16, 20:4). In this present age in which I write, the god of the world is a false one, the god of this age is the one called Satan by the Bible (2Cor 4:4). Satan is an agelasting god ruling in the old age. Satan is the power of death; he is what I call the "other-mind" (see the "Old Mind Paper" [NM 21]). The true God (His Good Spirit) does not rule this old age and that is the reason this age is so twisted. The true God through Jesus Christ rules beginning in the aeonian time, the 1000 year age. This is an aeonian aspect of God. Of course, since God's agelong (olam or aionios) kingdom will not end (Dan 2:44, 7:14; Luke 1:33), then this new aeonian kingdom (see Greek text, 2Pet 1:11) and rule will never end. It is an endless age, but it does have a beginning at the coming of Jesus Christ (Rev 11:15). Therefore it is an aeonian rulership. The word aionios (or olam) by itself means agelong, but the new and coming age belonging to God will not end like most ages because other clarifying words tell us that this special age, unlike ages before it, will not end (Isa 9:6-7; Dan 2:44, 7:14; Luke 1:33). It also can be said that the new age began in one sense at Christ's first presence or coming.

    Greek Words that Mean Forever
    nm136» If Paul wanted in Rom 16:26 to describe God as the everlasting God or the endless God, Paul had many other Greek words to use to say this. Paul could have used akatalutos, which means "indissoluble." Paul could have used atelestos, which means "endlessness." Or Paul could have used aperantos, which also means "endless," as he used this word in 1Tim 1:4. But Paul did not use these words or other Greek words or phrases because he did not want to use them, for he was simply mentioning in Rom 16:26 that some aspect of God is "aeonian." God is a lot of things, and one of these is that he is in a certain way "aeonian." God belongs to the new never ending age - God's age or God's olam or aion. God is God of olam or God of aionios, He is the God of the new, great, never ending age. We know it is a new great and never ending age, not by the word olam or aionios, but by other words and sentences because olam and aionios speak only of a vague or undefined age, not a forever age.

    nm137» In some translations of the Old Testament, it has "eternal God" in Deut 33:27, but this should be translated "ancient God" or "God of old." This mistranslated word is strong's # 6924, qedem. In some translations of Gen 21:33 and Isa 40:28 it has "everlasting God," but should be translated "olam God" or "God of olam." This means that God belongs or pertains to olam or the hidden age of the future first mentioned in Gen 3:22.

    Context Argument Two
    Aionios Life and Punishment
    nm138» The second argument of context which Augustine cleverly articulated back in the early fifth century AD (413-26), in his City of God (trans. W.M. Green, The Loeb Classical Library, 1972), deals with two items: one is punishment, and the other is life. In Augustine's time some were teaching that the aionios punishment would end. Augustine in book 21 of his City of God was in part arguing against this position.

    nm139» Augustine translates the word aionios from scripture into the Latin, aeternus and aeternitas. These Latin words are related to the Latin aevum, which in turn is related to the Greek aion (cf. Oxford Latin Dict., 1968, p. 74, col. 2, under aeternus, "[aevvm + -ternvs]").. Augustine knows that these words can mean longlasting, with the possibility of an end. Thus Augustine must emphasize in his writings that he is not speaking of the Latin, aeternus, in the sense of a long period, but in the sense of eternal, a period without end. Notice Augustine's own words, translated from Latin:

    The term "eternal," as applied here, does not refer to a long period of time (aetas) lasting through many ages, but still at some time bound to end.1 Rather, as it stands written in the gospel, "of his kingdom there shall be no end.[Luke 1:33]" (City of God, book 22, part 1; page 173)
    1 The words "eternal" and "eternity," from Latin aeternus, aeternitas, are related to aevum, which means both "unending time" and "a period of time"; for the second meaning the commoner word is aetas. Augustine seeks to make it clear that the "eternal" happiness of the saints is unending happiness, that is, an unending immortality for each individual (text of editorial footnote 1 on p. 173).

    And from the Oxford Latin Dictionary, 1968, we see that:

    aetas means
    1. The number of years one has lived, one's age. 2. Period or time of life. 3. A person or person of a particular age or period of life, an age group. 4. a. youth. b. old or advancing age; greater age. 5. The whole period of a man's life, the mortal span, one's lifetime, an age. 6. Human life and all that goes with it. 7. The passage or lapse of time. 8. The time or period to which a person or thing belongs, an era, age; the duration of this as a unit of time, a generation.

    aevum means
    1. time of life. 2 a generation. 3. age.

    nm140» Thus, even in his time, Augustine knew that aionios meant agelong or longlasting, thus he reasoned by context:

    Then what sort of reasoning is it, to take the eternal [aeternum] punishment of the wicked as a fire of long duration and believe that eternal [aeternam] life is without end? For Christ said in the very same place, including both in one and the same sentence: "So these will go into eternal [Lat., aeternum; Greek aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [Lat., aeternam; Greek, aionios] life." [Mat 25:46] If both are eternal, then surely both must be understood as "long," but having an end, or else as "everlasting," without an end. For they are matched with each other: in one clause eternal punishment, in the other eternal life. But to say in one and the same sentence: "Eternal life shall be without end, eternal punishment will have an end," is utterly absurd. Hence, since the eternal life of the saints will be without end, eternal punishment also will surely have no end, for these whose lot it is. [book 21, part 23; p. 113]
    nm141» Augustine finds a place in the Bible where the Greek aionios is used to speak both of the punishment of sinners and the reward of the saints (Mat 25:46). But because all Christians think and know that their 'reward' is immortality, an everlasting life, and since in one sentence aionios describes the life for the righteous, and the punishment for evil, then according to this argument, aionios must mean forever, at least in context. This may seem logical, but in context of other scriptures it is not logical.

    All Made Alive
    nm142» Notice one sentence where it shows that since all die, all will be saved:

    From Paul's resurrection chapter we read:

    For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1Cor 15:22; see Pss 82:7-8; Rom 5:14-18).
    In this one sentence we have "all" repeated twice. Most believe the first "all," that is, because of Adam's sin all die. Most do not believe the second "all," that is, because of Christ all will be made alive.

    nm143» What is meant in 1Cor 15:22 by "be made alive"? Does it mean be made alive (resurrected) and thereafter be killed in some kind of hell-fire? In context what does it mean to "be made alive"?

    "For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order" (1Cor 15:21-23, NASB).
    nm144» Here it speaks of the resurrection of the dead. All shall be made alive, but not at the same time. There is an order to the "all shall be made alive." In context this resurrection has something to do with "the resurrection of the dead."

    nm145» As we clearly show in our papers, 'All Saved' and 'Does All Mean All?,' there are three orders or ranks of resurrection. The first was Jesus Christ. The second will be the real Christians at Christ's second coming. The third and final resurrection will be at the end of creation when the universal resurrection of all others occur. This will not be a resurrection to death, but one to life. Please read these two papers so as to begin to see the truth about the universal resurrection to life. Also read the "Reason Why" [GP 7] paper in the God Papers to understand the need for the present age of confusion. There is hope for all. All will be given the good Spirit and the good mind.

    But they forget...
    nm146» According to those who say aionios means "everlasting," those who do evil in this age will go away to serve an everlasting punishment because they did not bring God into their lives. And also according to these same people, those who do good in this age and/or those who accept God in this age will be given everlasting life. But they forget that it is God who gives the power for people to be good, to repent ("change one's mind"), to receive God's Spirit, and so forth (see the rest of the New Mind Papers for documentation). Thus, simply, those who will be ****ed for everlasting punishment, as some assert, will be ****ed merely because God did not give them the power to save themselves. What these people are saying is that God is discriminating wrongly against some: he saves some forever through his grace; he ****s others forever by not giving them his grace.

    Paradox: All Eventually Saved; Evil ****ed Forever
    nm147» The answer is not as Augustine argues, that all doesn't mean all (Book 21, part 24). Augustine needlessly throws in more confusion by alleging that 'all' doesn't mean 'all.' But the real answer negates the confusion. The answer to the paradox is that aionios, an adjective of aion (which is a word that means age), means aeonian, and that 'all' means 'all.' The aionios punishment the Bible speaks about is agelasting. There is an agelasting or aeonian punishment for many, not an everlasting punishment. Notice the following scriptures concerning the aionios (aeonian) punishment or judgment.

    Aeonian or Agelasting Punishment.
    nm148» There is an agelasting fire: "And if your hand or your foot offend you, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life lame and crippled, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the aionios fire" (Mat 18:8).

    nm149» At the physical return of the Messiah some people will burn in the fire (caused by the Last War) which is to last for an age. This fire was meant for the other-mind, our spiritual adversary, and his spiritual friends: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into aionios fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mat 25:41).

    nm150» This aionios fire is an aionios punishment: "And these shall go away into aionios punishment" (Mat 25:46). As shown in the "Thousand Years and Beyond Paper" [NM 15] this fire is mainly for the twisted spirits of Satan because people can't live in fire. People die in fire. But with this fire many will die. Their punishment is death from the fire. But the twisted spirits will be punished in the fire because they can't die in it.

    nm151» This aionios fire, this aionios punishment is an agelasting destruction away from the glory of the Lord in his 1000 year rule: "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the good-news of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who [those not knowing God] shall be punished with aionios destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2Thess 1:7-9).

    Aeonian or Agelasting Life versus Immortal Life
    nm152» Now the Bible speaks of an aionios life, thus an agelasting or aeonian life. As shown in the "Reward for Christians" paper [NM 11] this age-life begins at the beginning of the 1000 year rule of Christ the God. Of course, since this coming new age will never end, the aionios life continues after the 1000 years. There are at least 44 scriptures mentioning the aionios life and other scripture mentioning the age-life for those who are in God (see the Englishman's Greek Concordance under aionios; See "Reward for Christians Paper" [NM 11] and other papers for more detail on this agelasting "life."). When you are resurrected in the resurrection at Christ's coming, you will receive immortal life. But there is a difference between immortal life and aeonian life as explained in the Reward for Christians paper [NM 11]. It is possible for someone to live in the aeonian life and be mortal for those physically born during the 1000 years will be mortal.

    Two Ages: One Ends; One Does Not End
    Old Age
    nm153» There are two main ages. There is Satan's age of confusion with its spirit of confusion. There is the True God's age of harmony with its Spirit of harmony. Mat 12:32 speaks about the present age (aion) and about the coming age. The KJV translates aion as "world." In Mat 13:22 it speaks about, "the care of this aion [KJV, "world"], and the deceitfulness of riches." In Mat 13:39-40 it speaks about "the end of the world," that is the end of the age (aion). There is a certain "wisdom" of this age or aion (1Cor 2:6). There are certain children of this age (- KJV "world"). These children are of the devil (Mat 13:38-40). There is a god of this age or aion (2Cor 4:4; KJV, "world"). People fight "against the rulers of darkness of this age [aion]" (Eph 6:12).

    New Age
    nm154» Scripture indicates that the end of this wicked age comes at the beginning of the new age - at Jesus Christ's coming. (Dan 2:44, 7:17-18,25-27; Mat 13:38-40, 24:3-31; 2Thess 2:1,8; Rev 11:15, 12:10-11, 20:1-5; see "Beast Paper" [PR2, PR3], "God's Wrath Paper" [PR4], etc.)

    nm155» There is a coming age at the end of the old wicked age. Such scriptures as Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30, 20:35; Eph 1:21 in the Greek text indicate this. This New Age (aion) or agelasting (aionios) period under God's Spirit will not end as Dan 2:44; Luke 1:33, and Dan 7:14 indicate. But during this endless age their will be the 1000 year age in which some will be punished. After this age is another short age called the Great Last Day (see "Thousand Years and Beyond Paper" [NM 15] and others).

    Why Misusage of these Words?
    nm156» There could easily be a book written on the story behind the misusage of olam and aionios. One reason was some of the early fathers of the Catholic Church such as Augustine relied too heavily on the Greek literature especially Plato's to obtain doctrine instead of relying on Biblical scripture. Augustine used the faulty Greek text of the Old Testament instead of the inspired Hebrew text (City of God, book 18, chapter ). Some of the very arguments used by Augustine to "prove" that aionios means eternal (City of God, book 21, chapters ; etc.) are used today by theologians and preachers to "prove" that aionios means eternal (Berkhof's Systematic Theology, "The Duration of their Punishment," p. 736; etc.).

    nm157» We should no longer take our doctrine on the God and His ages from Plato or the other Greeks. The truth is found in the Bible, not Greek literature. Do read all our papers on Christianity (New Mind Papers) to better understand the age plan of God.

    Review And Further Arguments for the Use of Agelasting or Aeonian
    nm158» The Issue:

    The misuse of the words "forever," "everlasting," and "eternal" instead of the correct usage of "age" or "aeonian."
    nm159» The Question:

    Why do Christians teach of an "everlasting" ****ation (death or punishment) when the very word "everlasting" from which these Christians obtain their doctrine is a mistranslation according to reliable Biblical aids?
    Explain to me why Christians use the traditional mistranslation of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aionios instead of the inspired meaning of these words?

    Significance:
    nm160 »

    The great importance of using the correct translation is that it opens up highly important truths of the Bible. If one takes the literal meaning of these words every place they appear in the Bible, an "age" plan of God is projected.
    Further Response to the Arguments of Context
    nm161 »

    1. The use of the context argument in the English language.

    One way to disprove the context argument is to try and use the English word "age" to mean "everlasting" or "eternal." This can not be reasonably done.

    2. The quantity of misusage of the Hebrew and Greek words for age.

    If the context argument is correct then why should the great majority of the original words, that mean "age" in Hebrew and Greek be translated to mean "forever"? It would be more reasonable if most of the original words were translated with their literal meaning instead of their evolved "context" meaning.

    3. Why didn't the writers of the Bible use other words or phrases in Greek that meant everlasting or eternal?

    If the context argument is correct, in that the Greek word that means "age" should be read "forever" because of the context, then why didn't the original writers use other Greek words or phrases that literally meant "forever" when they were writing? No, they used words that meant literally agelasting because they were speaking of an agelasting time not an everlasting time. The writers of the Bible were referring to the time of olam that Adam and Eve missed by their sin (Gen 3:22).

    4. The dubiousness of writers using two different languages using words that literally mean "age" which they intended to be understood by their readers to mean "everlasting."

    The fact that the two main original languages of the Bible have words that mean "agelasting," which are said to mean "everlasting" because of their usage in context, helps to rule out the argument of context. Maybe, just maybe, one language could use a word that literally means "agelasting" in context so as to mean "everlasting." But both of the languages used words that literally meant "agelasting" to describe the agelasting reward and agelasting punishment of Christians and non-Christians because they were speaking of an age-time reward and punishment not an everlasting reward and punishment.

    5. The dubiousness of most of the 40 or so writers of the Bible using words that literally meant "age" which they meant to be understood by their readers to mean "everlasting."

    Maybe some of the writers would use words that mean "agelasting" in context to mean "everlasting," but surely not most of them.

    6. On the passages such as Rom 16:26 where if taken literally God would be an agelasting God in some aspect.

    Now there are many other places where it indicates that God is in someway an eternal God. God is in a sense eternal - His Power. But in another sense he is also an agelasting God. He is an agelasting God because His age begins in the coming 1000 years of the Kingdom of God. This is the age when God is King of kings, this is the age wherein God will rule all. In the present age God is not the God of the world, for Satan is now that god (2Cor 4:4). The new age of the true God will not end (Dan 2:44; Luke 1:33; etc.). The new age is different from the age of Satan, for Satan's age will end when God's age begins.

    7. On the reward for Christians - agelasting life.

    Christians live the agelasting life as servant-rulers under Christ, but since they also are made immortal at the beginning of the 1000 year age (1Cor 15:52-54), then they live on forever after that 1000 year age (see "Reward for Christians" paper [NM 11]). This 1000 year age is an age within an age or within the great age or great ages. The great age is the olam or aion of God, and this new age of ages will not end (Isa 9:6-7; Dan 2:44, 7:14; Luke 1:33).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Everliving? or Ageliving
    Rosetta Stone: Egyptian Holy or Hieroglyphic Script.
    nm162» The error of turning words that mean age into everlasting is not confined to the Bible. Of some interest is the translation of the Egyptian hieroglyphic signs into "everliving." On the Rosetta Stone certain hieroglyphs were translated into, "everliving." On the Rosetta Stone there are two languages: Egyptian and Greek. The Egyptian language is cut into the stone in two different kinds of characters: (1) Hieroglyphic characters were used for state and ceremonial documents that were intended to be seen by the public; and (2) Demotic characters, were "the conventional, abbreviated and modified form of the Hieratic character, or cursive form of hieroglyphic writing, which was in use in the Ptolemaic Period" (E.A. Wallis Budge, The Rosetta Stone, Ares Publishers; Chicago:1980, reprint of 1922 work, p. 2). The Greek portion of the inscription was cut into the stone in ordinary uncials. "The inscription on the Rosetta Stone is a copy of the Decree passed by the General Council of Egyptian priests assembled at Memphis to celebrate the first commemoration of the coronation of Ptolemy V. Epiphanes, king of all Egypt" (p. 7). This coronation of Ptolemy to king of Egypt took place about 196 BC. "The original form of the Decree is given by the Greek section, and the Hieroglyphic and Demotic versions were made from it" (p. 7).

    Greek/English Translation of "Everliving"
    nm163» In Budge's The Rosetta Stone, he has the translation of the Greek into English. On lines 4, 8, 37, 49, and 54 of the translation he has the Greek aionobioy translated into "everliving." But this Greek word is made up of two parts. The Greek aion is the word for "age" or "era." The Greek bioy is the genitive singular for bios, which means "life" or "living." Thus this Greek word means "age-living" or "era-living" or in a sense "long-living." This word does not mean everliving.

    Copic Translation of "Eternity"
    nm164» Quoting Budge from page 6,

    it was therefore guessed that the next sign [the next part of the hieroglyphic signs translated into "everliving"] meant "ever." Coptic again showed that one of the old Egyptian words for "ever, age, eternity," was Djet, and as we already know that the phonetic value of the second sign in the word is T, we may assume that the value of [sign] is DJ.
    Budge attempts to show in another way through a Coptic word that a certain hieroglyphic sign means "everliving." But notice this Coptic word means, "ever, age, eternity." Here it is again, the mixing of the word age with eternity. But as we see using the Greek translation of the Rosetta Stone, this sign reads "age-living" or "long-living" or "era-living." Remember the original was written in Greek and the Egyptian translation was taken from the Greek.

    Egyptian's "Everlastingness," "Eternity," or "Millions of Years"
    nm165» In Budge's, The Gods of the Egyptians, this same hieroglyphic sign mentioned on page 6 of Budge's, The Rosetta Stone, is translated as either "ever" or "everlastingness" (Vol 1, pp 54-55, line 521). But also note that the hieroglyphic sign, heh, is translated "eternity" in line 520 of this same book. Yet,

    "according to Dr. Brugsch the name Heh is connected with the word which indicates an undefined and unlimited number, i.e., heh, when applied to time the idea suggested is "millions of years," and Heh is equivalent to the Greek [aion]" (Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians, Vol 1, p. 285).
    Thus, the sign, heh, is wrongly translated as "eternity" and sometimes translated "millions of years," but is equivalent to the Greek aion, which we have seen in this paper means an age of undefined time.

    To Conclude
    nm166» Not only was the Bible mistranslated, but what we are manifesting here is that one should be very careful when reading translations in general. There is a bias against translating words or signs that mean "age" correctly. They prefer the hyperbolic mistranslations of "forever," "everlasting," or "eternity." Be careful.

    The Saying, "To the Age"
    nm167» A saying that goes back to ancient time is, "long live the king." Or in the Bible it has it:

    "let live my lord king David to olam" (1Kgs 1:31)
    "the king to olam live" (Neh 2:3)
    "king to alam live" (Dan 2:4, 3:9, 5:10, 6:6,21)
    nm168» As we have learned in the "Age Paper" [NM 7] olam or alam means a hidden age or time. It in fact is that great age of the kingdom of God promised since the garden of Eden after mankind lost the right to "live to olam" (Gen 3:22, see Hebrew). The Hebrew preposition el, which means to or towards or into, is connected in the above verses with the Hebrew olam or alam, thus our translation of "to olam" or "to (the) age." Throughout my life I have heard the saying "til kingdom come" or "to kingdom come." These sayings are versions of the Bible's 'to olam,' that is, to (the) age of the kingdom.

    Examples in the NT
    KJV Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    YLT Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where {are} the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

    GNT Rev 20:10 kai. o` dia,boloj o` planw/n auvtou.j evblh,qh eivj th.n li,mnhn tou/ puro.j kai. qei,ou o[pou kai. to. qhri,on kai. o` yeudoprofh,thj( kai. basanisqh,sontai h`me,raj kai. nukto.j eivj tou.j aivw/naj tw/n aivw,nwnÅ

  16. #16
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    My views are that of this Death is something we have brought on ourselves through SIN! We were originally supposed to live forever on Earth. Isaiah 45:18
    Although the first couple disobeyed God, thus proving to be unfit to live forever, Gods origional purpose did not change. Isaiah 55:11 The Bible promises The righteous themselves will posses the earth, and they will reside forever upon it. Psalm 37:29 Often tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who srve him everlasting life.(On Earth) John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4.

    Man was made for the Earth and the Earth for man Genesis 2:8, 9, 15
    He (God) has founded the earth upon its established places; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever. Psalm 104:5

    After armageddon no part of this world will remain Only persons who serve god will continue to live 1 John 2:17
    Jesus Christ compared the situatuation to that of Noahs day. Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 3:5-7, 13; 2:5
    After Armageddon, Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone Revelation 20:1-3

    All of humankind will be at peace Psalm 72:7,8

    No more war Psalm 46:8,9

    Crime, violence and wickedness gone Psalm 37:9 10
    Proverbs 2:22

    All Earth a paradise
    Luke 23:43
    Psalm 37:29

    Plenty of good things to eat
    Isaiah 25:6
    Psalm 72:16; 67:6

    A loving brotherhood of all humkind
    Acts 10:34, 35
    Revelation 7:9, 16

    Peace between people and animals
    Isaiah 11:16; 65:25


    No more sickness Old age or death
    Isaiah 35:5, 6
    Revelation 21:3, 4

    The dead are brought back to life
    John 5:28, 29
    Revelation 20:13

    All of these scripture talk of what is to come after armagedon.

    It also speaks of ressurection a vast amount of times while only stating that a certain number 144,000 Go to heaven.
    Last edited by Bryan2; 01-08-2005 at 04:33 AM.

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    There may be 144000 on earth for the 1000 years.......then there will be a new heaven and earth after that age.

    That is why the free -will argument is ludicrous.......man can not choose God.......

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    I dont have time to reply to all this right now, but just letting you know I have read it. One more thing Id like to add, is that hell is just a holding cell, if you will, before the judgement and body and soul are cast into the lake of fire after that judgement (the evil doers)

    Quote Originally Posted by BADGERMAN
    It also speaks of ressurection a vast amount of times while only stating that a certain number 144,000 Go to heaven.

    the 144,000 is not the number of people going to heaven, that is something that Jehovah's Witnesses teach and is total false hood. We can start another thread on the 144000 if you want.
    Last edited by max2extreme; 01-08-2005 at 07:21 AM.

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    Sounds cool well start another thread but from my understanding the 144,000 are the only ones that are ever spoken in scripture to go to heaven?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I dont have time to reply to all this right now, but just letting you know I have read it. One more thing Id like to add, is that hell is just a holding cell, if you will, before the judgement and body and soul are cast into the lake of fire after that judgement (the evil doers)
    .
    So there are 2 hell forms?

    One that is just a holding cell,is this the one of torture?

    and the lake of fire is a worse one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    So there are 2 hell forms?

    One that is just a holding cell,is this the one of torture?

    and the lake of fire is a worse one?
    So where does Pergatory fit into this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    So there are 2 hell forms?

    One that is just a holding cell,is this the one of torture?

    and the lake of fire is a worse one?
    I used the term "Hell" in my post because no matter what term is used, I knew what you meant by your topic (is hell full of fire/torment). I knew you meant after death, do the evil people literally burn or not, no matter what we call it. So, this said, instead of the term Hell, we should have used the term 'lake of fire' as it is in the bible. Hell is the holding tank for unbelievers before the judgement at which time, they will be thrown into the "lake of fire" where the torment and fire and such is (but whether we talked about here as hell, or lake of fire, makes no difference because in this thread, the meaning was the same, were the evil tormented and burned).

    Revelation 11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Though the bodies return to earth, this second ressurection not only is for the soul but the body and both are cast into the lake of fire.

    Sean, I dont know that we really have the term purgatory in christianity. What do you mean by purgatory and ill tell you what comes close, if anything. BUT we may be getting off topic. Id like to stick to, after death, do the evil literally burn, suffer, etc forever, or do they just die. If anyone wants, we can start a thread about revelation and what is the order of things after we are dead, or even just before if anyone wants, about tribulation and all of the judgements that will be poured out on the earth. That is what seems to me this post here is about.
    Last edited by max2extreme; 01-08-2005 at 08:25 AM.

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    Now, i dont think it is clear where the lake of fire is. It very well could be IN hell...I dont know. so it might not be wrong to say we burn in hell if the lake of fire is in hell. BUT it could be that the lake of fire is NOT in hell, in which case we would have been wrong to use the term "hell" before. But like i said, its the meaning we were going after, even though the term hell may or may not have been the right word to use. So from here on, we will make that distinction.

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    That's funny that people actuallu believe that stuff. It sounds like a child's fairy tail book gone wild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanut Butter
    That's funny that people actuallu believe that stuff. It sounds like a child's fairy tail book gone wild.

    For well over a thousand years, back when most people couldn't read, and if they could read they probably wouldn't have access to a copy of the bible, and if they did, it probably wouldn't have been written in their language, the sole posessor and interpreter of the Bible was the established church. All you knew about Genesis or Leveticus or Matthew or Revelation came straight from your preacher, and that was it.
    So, steeped in mystery and authority, and preached with threats to "Beleive or Perish," officially sanctioned absurdity became the norm, and from there, cultural tradition.
    Nowadays when old fogies like Rev. James Kennedy and Jerry Falwell think fondly of "The Old Time Religion," this is pretty much what they have in mind. We preach it, you beleive it and conform, or else, including whatever foul ravings they spew about Revelations . . . and their rantings filter down to boards like this one, and it makes those of us who haven't been "conned" smile.

    But ya, it does indeed sound like a child's fairy tale gone wild . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    The reference of Ecclesiasties is making a comparison to the living and the dead but it states they have no wisdom nor knowledge meaning no thoughts whatsoever. But it does NOT clearly state that there will be two places to go once dead.

    when they are dead both humans and animals are in this same state of unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point: "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from dust, and they are all returning to dust." EC 3:19, 20 The "spirit" that makes animals alive is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

    The Soul Dies

    Some persons have said that what makes man different from the animals is that man has a soul but the animals do not. However, Genesis 1:20 and 30 says that God created "living souls" to live in the waters, and that the animals have "life as a soul." In these verses some Bibles use the words "creature" and "life" instead of "soul," but their marginal readings agree that the word "soul" is what apears in the origional language.

    The Bible references to animals as souls in Numbers 31:28 there it speaks of "one soul out of 500, of humankind and the herd and of the asses and of the flock". Since animals are souls when they die there souls die. Revelation 16:3 "Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea"
    Never in the Bible does it say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die."All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive,"Psalm 22:29.

    The soul that is sinning it - itself will die Ezekial 18:4 and 20
    Joshua 10:28-39 seven different places where the soul is spoken of being killed or destroyed.

    In a prophesy about Jesus Christ, the Bible says: He poured out his soul to the very death......and he himself carried the very sin of many people. Isaiah 53:12

    The teaching of the Ransom proves it was a soul(Adam) that sinned, and that in order to ransom humans there had to be a corresponding soul(a man) sacrified. Christ, by pouring out his soul unto death,' provided the ransom price. Jesus, the human soul died.

    The "spirit" is something different from our soul. The spirit is our life force. This life-force is in each of the bodys cells of both humans and animals. It is sustaine dor kept alive by breathing. What does it mean when the Bible says at death the dust returns to the earth.....and the spirit itself returns to the True God who gave it? Ecclesiastes 12:7

    At death the life-force in time leaves all of the bodys cells and the body begins to decay. But this does not mean that our life-force litterally leaves earth and travels through space to God. Rather, the spirit returns to God in the sense that now our hope for the future life rests entirely with God. Onl by his power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that we live again. Psalm 104:29,30

    More to come

    Can you sum this up for me in a small paragraph or sentence on what point you are trying to make?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    In Gehenna No living animals or creatures were pitched into gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. Hence this place could never symbolize an invisable realm where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire.
    God speaking in Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by BRYAN2
    Because the dead criminals were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurection, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his diciples to symbolize everlasting destruction,annihillation from God's universe, or "second death" an eternal punishment
    No, God did what he did to Gehenna because of the evil that was there, the false religion, and everything the people were doing. Reference Jeremiah 7. God declared the bones of the priests, prophets, and peiople of Jerusalem to be removed from their graves (desecration of graves) and expose them to the sun and to the moon and the stars of the heavens because that is what those people loved and served, followed, consulted, and worshipped...instead of God.

    So before there was this heap, they were doing live sacrifices. There was a continuous fire burning to take care of all of the dead carcasses of the criminals, and this place was still in existance during the time of Jesus. I can totally see where this would be used to describe a hell with everlasting fire, as there was in Gehenna, and torment, just as the children went thru during the sacrifices.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    My views are that of this Death is something we have brought on ourselves through SIN! We were originally supposed to live forever on Earth. Isaiah 45:18
    Although the first couple disobeyed God, thus proving to be unfit to live forever, Gods origional purpose did not change. Isaiah 55:11 The Bible promises The righteous themselves will posses the earth, and they will reside forever upon it. Psalm 37:29 Often tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who srve him everlasting life.(On Earth) John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4.

    Man was made for the Earth and the Earth for man Genesis 2:8, 9, 15
    He (God) has founded the earth upon its established places; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever. Psalm 104:5

    After armageddon no part of this world will remain Only persons who serve god will continue to live 1 John 2:17
    Jesus Christ compared the situatuation to that of Noahs day. Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 3:5-7, 13; 2:5
    After Armageddon, Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone Revelation 20:1-3

    All of humankind will be at peace Psalm 72:7,8

    No more war Psalm 46:8,9

    Crime, violence and wickedness gone Psalm 37:9 10
    Proverbs 2:22

    All Earth a paradise
    Luke 23:43
    Psalm 37:29

    Plenty of good things to eat
    Isaiah 25:6
    Psalm 72:16; 67:6

    A loving brotherhood of all humkind
    Acts 10:34, 35
    Revelation 7:9, 16

    Peace between people and animals
    Isaiah 11:16; 65:25


    No more sickness Old age or death
    Isaiah 35:5, 6
    Revelation 21:3, 4

    The dead are brought back to life
    John 5:28, 29
    Revelation 20:13

    All of these scripture talk of what is to come after armagedon.

    It also speaks of ressurection a vast amount of times while only stating that a certain number 144,000 Go to heaven.

    Is this on the topic of hell being a place of fire and torment or another point? All of these things are correct. Except that only 144000 go to heaven. Ill start another thread in a few days about tribulation and the 144000 saints.

  29. #29
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    Badgerman, I dont want to quote your posts and go through each one and debate them in one post, that would be long and most people wouldnt read it because of the length. Could you do me a favor and pick out some key points you want to make and I'll go over those? A little at a time.

    Thanks

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Can you sum this up for me in a small paragraph or sentence on what point you are trying to make?


    To sum up that post I am decribing that our SOUL is not eternal and it can die. Animals have the same souls as us we are living souls.No where in the Bible does it ever speak of the Soul being eternal or deathless. So if we dont have a literal soul that is floating in another realm after we die then what is to be punished? The body is already dead.

    Those scriptures were references to the soul being mortal.


    Spirit is indeed different from the Soul.

    It is what God grants all living things to animate them part of HIS essence. This is the reason why we ourselves cannot create life.
    Once we die it isnt literally a form in another realm. And only God has the power to give us another life force so we can live again. The psalms scripture is stating that once we die our spirit is gone from us. And the only way we can achieve LIFE again is if God chooses to reanimate us.Thus if when we die and have no Spirit what then is being tortured in the lake of fire.

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    Another interesting thing is that if the Lake of Fire is indeed to be used to burn people litterally then it does not yet exist. Only after Armaggedon will it be put to use. So everyone that is dead now that were against God are not in Hell(burning) yet.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    God speaking in Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.


    Yes but this was BEFORE it was turned into the trash dump.King Josiah put an end to this and then it was turned into a trash dump.And God stated himself that it would never come to his mind such a horrible thing to command burning people alive.

    No, God did what he did to Gehenna because of the evil that was there, the false religion, and everything the people were doing. Reference Jeremiah 7. God declared the bones of the priests, prophets, and peiople of Jerusalem to be removed from their graves (desecration of graves) and expose them to the sun and to the moon and the stars of the heavens because that is what those people loved and served, followed, consulted, and worshipped...instead of God.



    So before there was this heap, they were doing live sacrifices. There was a continuous fire burning to take care of all of the dead carcasses of the criminals, and this place was still in existance during the time of Jesus. I can totally see where this would be used to describe a hell with everlasting fire, as there was in Gehenna, and torment, just as the children went thru during the sacrifices.

    But how then do you explain that death and hades itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. They cannot litterally burn?
    Death is going to be done away with! People will live forever.
    The Lake is a symbol of everlasting death from which there is no resurection

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Is this on the topic of hell being a place of fire and torment or another point? All of these things are correct. Except that only 144000 go to heaven. Ill start another thread in a few days about tribulation and the 144000 saints.

    Sounds good though is where Ill have to do some more research im no too sure have always thought the only scripture suporting people and Heaven were the 144,000. I will save my comments about this for the new thread.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Can you sum this up for me in a small paragraph or sentence on what point you are trying to make?

    "Never hit your mother with a shovel,
    You'll leave a dull impression on her mind."
    (From a song by the same name)
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme

    the 144,000 is not the number of people going to heaven, that is something that Jehovah's Witnesses teach and is total false hood. We can start another thread on the 144000 if you want.
    How so? It is CLEARLY stated in the bible.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    My views are that of this Death is something we have brought on ourselves through SIN! We were originally supposed to live forever on Earth. Isaiah 45:18
    Although the first couple disobeyed God, thus proving to be unfit to live forever, Gods origional purpose did not change. Isaiah 55:11 The Bible promises The righteous themselves will posses the earth, and they will reside forever upon it. Psalm 37:29 Often tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who srve him everlasting life.(On Earth) John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4.

    Man was made for the Earth and the Earth for man Genesis 2:8, 9, 15
    He (God) has founded the earth upon its established places; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever. Psalm 104:5

    After armageddon no part of this world will remain Only persons who serve god will continue to live 1 John 2:17
    Jesus Christ compared the situatuation to that of Noahs day. Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 3:5-7, 13; 2:5
    After Armageddon, Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone Revelation 20:1-3

    All of humankind will be at peace Psalm 72:7,8

    No more war Psalm 46:8,9

    Crime, violence and wickedness gone Psalm 37:9 10
    Proverbs 2:22

    All Earth a paradise
    Luke 23:43
    Psalm 37:29

    Plenty of good things to eat
    Isaiah 25:6
    Psalm 72:16; 67:6

    A loving brotherhood of all humkind
    Acts 10:34, 35
    Revelation 7:9, 16

    Peace between people and animals
    Isaiah 11:16; 65:25


    No more sickness Old age or death
    Isaiah 35:5, 6
    Revelation 21:3, 4

    The dead are brought back to life
    John 5:28, 29
    Revelation 20:13

    All of these scripture talk of what is to come after armagedon.

    It also speaks of ressurection a vast amount of times while only stating that a certain number 144,000 Go to heaven.

    I dont see anything in this post that talks about our souls being 'mortal'.

  37. #37
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    Give me proof that spirit and soul are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRYAN2
    The Soul Dies

    Some persons have said that what makes man different from the animals is that man has a soul but the animals do not. However, Genesis 1:20 and 30 says that God created "living souls" to live in the waters, and that the animals have "life as a soul." In these verses some Bibles use the words "creature" and "life" instead of "soul," but their marginal readings agree that the word "soul" is what apears in the origional language.
    Soul is fine to be used here. Without our soul or spirit (used interchangably), our body dies.


    [QUOTE=BRYAN2]
    The Bible references to animals as souls in Numbers 31:28 there it speaks of "one soul out of 500, of humankind and the herd and of the asses and of the flock". Since animals are souls when they die there souls die. Revelation 16:3 "Every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea"
    Never in the Bible does it say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die."All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive,"Psalm 22:29.

    The soul that is sinning it - itself will die Ezekial 18:4 and 20

    Joshua 10:28-39 seven different places where the soul is spoken of being killed or destroyed.

    In a prophesy about Jesus Christ, the Bible says: He poured out his soul to the very death......and he himself carried the very sin of many people. Isaiah 53:12

    The teaching of the Ransom proves it was a soul(Adam) that sinned, and that in order to ransom humans there had to be a corresponding soul(a man) sacrified. Christ, by pouring out his soul unto death,' provided the ransom price. Jesus, the human soul died.[/QUOTE

    Ill look into this to provide a better understanding, but Im still certain that the death of the soul in these quotes do not mean an end to being, as you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRYAN2
    The "spirit" is something different from our soul. The spirit is our life force. This life-force is in each of the bodys cells of both humans and animals. It is sustaine dor kept alive by breathing. What does it mean when the Bible says at death the dust returns to the earth.....and the spirit itself returns to the True God who gave it? Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Can you provide verses from the bible that supports your view that the spirit is something that keeps our cells alive and the soul is something totally different?

    PS:Joshua 10 says nothing of souls dieing.
    Last edited by max2extreme; 01-09-2005 at 10:41 AM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan2
    But how then do you explain that death and hades itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. They cannot litterally burn?
    Death is going to be done away with! People will live forever.
    The Lake is a symbol of everlasting death from which there is no resurection
    Can the city of Los Angeles not be picked up physically and placed into a lake of fire?

    Thus far we are talking about things that could be looked as being literal or could be looked at as being symbolic. Now what of all of the verses that talk about torment forever?

    Revelation 20:10 ...they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Ill only give one verse, but you know there are many. If part of the topic is literal then all is literal, if part of it is symbolic, then all is symbolic. For if the lake of fire is not literal, then tormented day and night must not be literal because where else will be tormented literally, if the only place mentioned of torment is the lake, but we take that as symbolic. What of the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth that Jesus talks about describing hell?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I dont see anything in this post that talks about our souls being 'mortal'.
    The dead are brought back to life
    John 5:28, 29
    Revelation 20:13 (from Bryan2's post)

    DId you not read this part?!?

  40. #40
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    These say nothing of soul's being dead as the point he is trying to make. John 5:28 is talking about the dead coming back to life. In the end, the body and soul of the non-followers are thrown into the lake.

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