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  1. #1
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    Why is it hard to "find God"?

    This is another response by Dr. Kreeft to a question similar to the thread title

    "Only in a world where faith is difficult can faith exist. I don't have faith in two plus tuw equals four or in the noonday sun. Those are beyond question. But Scripture describes God as a hidden God. You have to make an effort of faith to find him. There are clues you can follow. And if that weren't so, if there were something more of less than clues, it's difficult for me to understand how we could really be free to make a choice about him. If we had absolute proof instead of clues, then you could no more deny God than you could deny the sun. If we had no evidence at all, you could never get there. God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want him can have him. Those who want to follow the clues will. The bible says "Seek and you shall find." It doesn't say everybody will find him; it doesn't say nobody will find him. Some will find. Who? Those who seek. Those whose hearts are set on finding him and who follow the clues."

  2. #2
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    How much faith is enough??? How much seeking is enough??? Again difficult questions for those reliant on their own will and not the will of God

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    How much faith is enough??? How much seeking is enough??? Again difficult questions for those reliant on their own will and not the will of God
    Badgerman with your way thinking you will never find GOD!
    if you are indeed looking for GOD,


    I like your way of thinking max2, man what a nice change of topic If you know what I mean. Still you find somebody to say something negative, they never fail!

    Keep em comming dude

    maybe you might get somebody to see the light
    Last edited by phwSSJ; 01-10-2005 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    How much faith is enough??? How much seeking is enough??? Again difficult questions for those reliant on their own will and not the will of God
    The bible says that if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could move mountains. Even one of Jesus' disciples denied Jesus not once or 2x, but 3x! And he KNEW Jesus was God and totally believed in him! I dont think there is a line you cross over and you have done enough seeking or have enough faith. I dont think we ever should stop seeking. No seeking or faith would be enough. Keep faith forever, keep total faith. Keep seeking till the day you die.

  5. #5
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    phwSSJ, thanks for your support. Always good to hear from fellow believers. A lot of what Im talking about here can be found in the book "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. Its a very good book. Might want to check it out.

  6. #6
    Chunky is offline New Member
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    I am also a fellow believer good to hear from you

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunky
    I am also a fellow believer good to hear from you
    Welcome to the board...noticed this was your first post!

  8. #8
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    It's the old cliche' you can't see the forest for (because of) the trees. People look too hard, God is there. I think people feel like they need a miracle or a voice or a sign.

    And when they don't get those they lose hope. It is sad most humans feel that their intellect is capable of understanding everything and they want answers. Sometimes the answer is NO. We walk by faith not by sight, not by things seen but of things which are unseen.

  9. #9
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    If you cannot see G-d in the fact that you're healthy enough to ponder the existence of G-d, in the fact that you have someone in your life that cares about you, in the beauty of nature, in a newly born child, in the fact that you aren't starving, in the fact that you have enough free time to sit at a computer and read a message board, in the fact that you're not so poor that you have no idea where you're next meal is coming from; then you are looking for G-d in the wrong places.

  10. #10
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    IMO is takes as much faith to believe the universe and everything within was created in a totally random way without a divine guiding plan. Although I believe, this is clearly a personal choice.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASK8KACE
    If you cannot see G-d in the fact that you're healthy enough to ponder the existence of G-d, in the fact that you have someone in your life that cares about you, in the beauty of nature, in a newly born child, in the fact that you aren't starving, in the fact that you have enough free time to sit at a computer and read a message board, in the fact that you're not so poor that you have no idea where you're next meal is coming from; then you are looking for G-d in the wrong places.
    very well put

  12. #12
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    Meant in a good way, I know Bask8kace...Good post. BUT, anyone who is looking for God can NEVER look for Him in the wrong place. If you find God on some Porn Site and it opens your eyes somehow, then you were looking in the right spot. I agree though Bask8kace with your post....but thats coming from another Christian. As Christians, we see God everywhere we look. We can see the glory of God in everything around us. To a non-believer, its not the same. Their eyes arent open.

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    So, I am one who constantly seeks G-d. It is quite an interesting journey.
    But, am I to believe that because I am not a "Christian" that I am in-fact a "non-believer" that I will not be successful in my journey????

    If this is the case then I would suggest that you remind me of some Al-Queda folks I know.

    And if not then what is the point EXACTLY.....

    Seeking is the essence.

  14. #14
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Meant in a good way, I know Bask8kace...Good post. BUT, anyone who is looking for God can NEVER look for Him in the wrong place. If you find God on some Porn Site and it opens your eyes somehow, then you were looking in the right spot. I agree though Bask8kace with your post....but thats coming from another Christian. As Christians, we see God everywhere we look. We can see the glory of God in everything around us. To a non-believer, its not the same. Their eyes arent open.
    I'm a Christian, but I'm not one of those wild people who blindly belive all they are told and still call themselves Christian.

    Do I doubt that G-d exists? Yes. But, I do prefer to have faith that--despite my doubt--He exitsts? Yes.

    I believe that part of faith is allowing for the doubt. Those who say they KNOW G-d exists are a bit too far gone for me. Do I believe that G-d has helped me and moved me and guided me? Yes. Do I know that there's a chance it's just all in my mind? Yes...but I PREFER to believe. It's a choice. I haven't been brainwashed into believing.

    I think those who believe blindly are in more danger of being mislead than those who take time to think for themselves.

    Remember, the KKK is a "deeply religious group." Just as the Taliban is a "deeply religious group."

    Does the KKK represent all Christians?--thank goodness, no. Does the Taliban represent all Islam?--thank goodness, no.

    By the way...Taliban is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

    Remember, the KKK is a "deeply religious group." Just as the Taliban is a "deeply religious group."

    Does the KKK represent all Christians?--thank goodness, no. Does the Taliban represent all Islam?--thank goodness, no.

    By the way...Taliban is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity.
    not really...the kkk is related to a nation, the american nation and regards part of their people (the blacks) as enemies. it is not that they fight the black people because of the religion (I guess most are christians). it is an ethnic conflict.

    the taliban is a multinational organization, not linked to one nation. they are fighting another religion and other states or ppl linked to those countries or religions. it is a cultural conflict.

    that s a big difference.

  16. #16
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    If I think intellectually, separated from how I really think, I can say "do we really know there is a God? no ive never seen him" But thats just lying really cuz I 100% do know theres a God and just because I cant physically feel or see Him, doesnt mean anything to me. I used to be that I believe kinda person but have doubts because of intellect. Now, its the same as 2+2=4 to me. no doubts. intellect prooves God to me now. Im not one of the wild people who blindly believe all Im told either. Glad too. But i have absolutely zero doubt about God's existance.

  17. #17
    BWhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    phwSSJ, thanks for your support. Always good to hear from fellow believers. A lot of what Im talking about here can be found in the book "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. Its a very good book. Might want to check it out.

    it is the Case of Christ....

    It is also a book of ridiculous proofs...either way, that is another topic

  18. #18
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***xxx***
    not really...the kkk is related to a nation, the american nation and regards part of their people (the blacks) as enemies. it is not that they fight the black people because of the religion (I guess most are christians). it is an ethnic conflict.

    the taliban is a multinational organization, not linked to one nation. they are fighting another religion and other states or ppl linked to those countries or religions. it is a cultural conflict.

    that s a big difference.
    You've forgotten that the KKK is completely opposed to Jews and just about anything that isn't a WASP. Dark skinned people are not the only ones the KKK is against.

    The KKK holds up Christianity (or a higer being, G-d) as a guiding force (while denouncing and killing others). I'd say that is VERY similar to the Taliban's relationship to Islam.

    An analogy, doesn't mean the 4 components of the analogy are the SAME. That's not what I was saying.

    Black:White :: Cold:Hot (Black is to white as cold is to hot)

    That doesn't mean that Black and Cold hold any similarities. It only means that black and white are similar to cold and hot in that each is commonly considered the opposite of the other.

    The only thing that I'm comparing is the way that each group considers itself a perfect example of G-d's (or a greater being's) desires while they kill and hate.

    KKK:Christianity :: Taliban:Islam

    ...is a sound analogy.
    Last edited by BASK8KACE; 01-11-2005 at 04:00 PM.

  19. #19
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    The intellectual is what defines us as human. Logic is what allows us to make our decisions. It is all we know to make them. But in order to believe in God, we must take that logic and for the most part get rid of it. There is no logical reasoning behind God unless you can show some decent proof. Without it, there are to many factors involved to completely give your life to God. For example:

    1) There are so many other religions that have as much circumstantial evidence as christianity. And what do christians say about that: Those believers of other religions are being tempted by the devil....but could that not be the same for you and christianity.

    2) "I just feel it. It has made such an improvement in my life"

    ***Emotional responses are created within the mind. Once a philosophy is created it is very common for it to change the overall mentalty of the person. For example, if you create a philosohphy that makes you look at everything in a positve light of course your life will seem happier. That is what christianity does. Is that not what also explains the happiness that others of other religions experience yet they can not all be right.

    3) "Look around and see how complex everything is. Look how lucky you are."

    ***First of all, this really holds little ground. In a complex view of evolutionary processes, it is really not all that hard to realize that over billions of years this is possible. But even if it can show that there is some other power, it does little to reinforce a christian God.

    4) You must have some sort of facts or proofs in order to believe. It cant be just 100% faith....that is just like me saying that i have 100% faith that this computer is in fact my God. There is a time for a leap of faith, but not a complete one. I would like someone to explain to me how they can still give their entire lives to christ despite this fact.

  20. #20
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    BWhitaker,

    You don't need proof to have faith. One might need proof to sustain his faith, but faith can exist without proof. How many Christians and Jews and Buddists etcetera believe in a higher power based only on what they've been taught and have read?

    If a person makes something up and believes in it, s/he may seem daft to the rest of the world, but in that one person's mind is all the proof s/he needs.

    Why do you think double blind experiments have been created? Because previous experiments have shown that the placebo effect--just believing that something will cure you can create changes in a person.

    If you believe in a higher power or a way of living, and if that belief creates comfort for a person without hurting others, then why should anyone care whether someone's faith can be substantiated?

    I'm a Christian, but I must say that any religion based solely on faith SHOULD be questionned, especially when the mere belief in it leads people to feel that it's okay to kill, beat, hang, burn.... other people who don't believe the same things. That religion should be questionned by the person who believes in it, and that same person should be vigilant for those who try to abuse his/her faith.
    Last edited by BASK8KACE; 01-11-2005 at 04:13 PM.

  21. #21
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    I edited the ending of my post above, but I wanted to add one more thing....

    People cannot fly. But, what kept people trying to create contraptions to allow us to fly? Is the belief that something can be created enough to make it "createable" ? Is faith in an object not yet created or proven to exist enough to make it real (exist)?

  22. #22
    max2extreme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWhitaker
    it is the Case of Christ....

    It is also a book of ridiculous proofs...either way, that is another topic
    no, "A Case for Christ" is another book. The book Im talking about is "A Case for Faith" by the same author.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWhitaker
    The intellectual is what defines us as human. Logic is what allows us to make our decisions. It is all we know to make them. But in order to believe in God, we must take that logic and for the most part get rid of it. There is no logical reasoning behind God unless you can show some decent proof. Without it, there are to many factors involved to completely give your life to God. For example:

    1) There are so many other religions that have as much circumstantial evidence as christianity. And what do christians say about that: Those believers of other religions are being tempted by the devil....but could that not be the same for you and christianity.

    2) "I just feel it. It has made such an improvement in my life"

    ***Emotional responses are created within the mind. Once a philosophy is created it is very common for it to change the overall mentalty of the person. For example, if you create a philosohphy that makes you look at everything in a positve light of course your life will seem happier. That is what christianity does. Is that not what also explains the happiness that others of other religions experience yet they can not all be right.

    3) "Look around and see how complex everything is. Look how lucky you are."

    ***First of all, this really holds little ground. In a complex view of evolutionary processes, it is really not all that hard to realize that over billions of years this is possible. But even if it can show that there is some other power, it does little to reinforce a christian God.

    4) You must have some sort of facts or proofs in order to believe. It cant be just 100% faith....that is just like me saying that i have 100% faith that this computer is in fact my God. There is a time for a leap of faith, but not a complete one. I would like someone to explain to me how they can still give their entire lives to christ despite this fact.
    I totally disagree you have to throw out logic to believe in God. I can prove it in one question...How did the universe form? Is it more believable that

    A) The universe has been around for eternity, no beginning, it just always has been.

    B) A big explosion caused everything, which is why the universe is constantly expanding, BUT what caused the explosion? Cant have something from nothing, so something HAD to be there for a reaction, so this actually goes back to answer A.

    C) A higher being created it.


    Somewhere in the bible theres a verse about logic basically, you want logic, look around and you can see it in everything. It has to do something with that, I forget exactly the verse.

    Actually there is no other religion that has as much circumstantial evidence. Christianity has the most 'hard evidence' of any religion.

    Ill respond to your other points after work bro..gott go.

    max

  24. #24
    BWhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    no, "A Case for Christ" is another book. The book Im talking about is "A Case for Faith" by the same author.
    my mistake

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I totally disagree you have to throw out logic to believe in God. I can prove it in one question...How did the universe form? Is it more believable that

    A) The universe has been around for eternity, no beginning, it just always has been.

    B) A big explosion caused everything, which is why the universe is constantly expanding, BUT what caused the explosion? Cant have something from nothing, so something HAD to be there for a reaction, so this actually goes back to answer A.

    C) A higher being created it.
    Yes, this is basically what it comes down to. First, one assumes that everything must have a first cause. However, that is just an assumption. And if a higher being created it, what was his first cause? The idea that he doesnt need one is the same as saying you dont always need a first cause. Therefore allowing for answer A to be just as likely as C.

    As far as which one is more believable: Well I would have to say A. Think about how many things we cant understand about God. There are so many things we just have to say we dont understand. For example: How can a being be omnipotent and omnibelevolent? How can he speak to every individual? You see what i am saying. So i would say that it is more likely that some unknown event or a first cause is not necessary would be a better explanation

    You must also realize that even if you can conclude that a higher being created the universe, it is hardly proof of a judeo-christian God. It would just show a higher being.

  26. #26
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    whoever said u dont need proof to have faith is rite cuz its all in the head

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    The bible says that if we had the faith of a mustard seed, we could move mountains.
    Huh . . . faith can't move my bowels, much less a mountain. Ever see faith move a mountain? Didn't think so.

    The Bible (John 14:12-14) says, ""12": Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    "13": And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    "14": If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    And in Matthew 18:19 it says, ""19": Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

    Yet, how many unanswered prayers have there been over the last 2000 years? More than most of them . . .

    Ya, the Bible makes big promises, but doesn't make good on 'em. Technically, two Christians in good standing ought to be able to "agree on earth" and ask God for an end to war, famine, disease, and unreasonable steroid laws --and I'm sure plenty of qualifying requests have been made for all these things down through the years -- but as I read in today's paper, we've still got lots of these problems.


    "The hands that help are better than the lips that pray."
    --Ingersoll


    Nothing fails like prayer.
    -Tock

  28. #28
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    that just proves that man doesnt have the faith of a mustard seed.

  29. #29
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    Tock, you are so full of crap! Faith DOES move mountains. The act of faith gives us the conviction to press on an undertake otherwise impossible tasks to fruition.

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