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  1. #1
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    Muslims Stake on Jesus VS Christianity ! (1victor)

    i have posted a new thread , and will soon post the verses i already talked about , will quote them excatly from the KJV or the NIV , as soon as i get time to do so (god willing)............. so stay tuned !

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    I look forward to this........... it should make for an interesting discussion.

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    Jesus says that he has to GO AWAY to send Someone After him !

    " Nevertheless, i tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that i go away; for if i go not away , the comforter will not come unto you; but if i depart, i will send him unto you."

    (john 16:7)

    this is the actual verse i was talking about here many christians have interpreted the word COMFORTER to be used as regarding to the Holy ghost , although some bibles have already replaced the word comforter to say HOLY GHOST .............. but the fact remains that this word was originally translated from the GREEK word PARAKLEETAY ........... Parakleetay literally mean " The praised ONE " .................. and hence the literal meaning of Mohammed (pbuh) is " The ONE worthy of Praise " ............ and clearly in this verse jesus fortells of his comming !

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    Like Moses !

    " N PROFEET SAL EK VIR HULLE
    VERWEK UIT DIE MIDDE VAN HULLE BROERS,
    SOOS JY IS.
    EN EK SAL MY WOORDE IN SY MOND LE.
    EN HY SAL AAN HULLE SE
    ALLES WAT EK HOM BEVEEL " (DEUT. 18:18) ( from the fifth book of the jewish n christian bibles )

    english translation of the above verse

    " ( God says to Moses)I Will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and i will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that i shall command him . " (deut. 18:18)

    now here the christians easily say well moses was talking about Jesus , well OKAY ? really ..................... lets look at the similarities Jesus had with moses ............. moses had a father and a mother , Jesus was born of miraculous birth , ( so this doesnt match ) ............ Moses was accepted by his nation he was sent upon , Jesus was not accepted by the nation of jews ( no similarity there ) .......... moses died a natural death , jesus got raised up to heaven ( not crucified thats what we believe ) ....... so that is not so matching either ................. whereas Mohammed (pbuh) had a mother and a father , he was accepted by the nation he was sent upon and also he died a natural death ............ ( there are many other similarities but i just cant put all of them here , so these r the major 3 ) ...

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    Mohammed mentioned by name

    Mohammed has been mentioned by name in the song of solomon 5:16

    the hebrew word used there is Mahammudim the end letters IM is a plural of respect, Majesty and grandeur. So minus the "im" the word would be Mahammud.

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    will post more ............. look forward to the verses jesus spoke of when the jews questioned of who he was ............ ill post them soon here with my explanation ! ( this whole thread is based on exchange of beleifs regarding Jesus in Islam n Jesus in christianity , i would appreciate this to be a peaceful thread thx ! )

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    Zoaib, I dont want this to sound dumb, but I thought the only diffrence between Muslims and Christians with regards to Jesus is that Christians believe he was the son of God, but Muslims believe he was just another profit (sp ?) like Mahammud. Forgive me if any of this is offensive, its not meant to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    Zoaib, I dont want this to sound dumb, but I thought the only diffrence between Muslims and Christians with regards to Jesus is that Christians believe he was the son of God, but Muslims believe he was just another profit (sp ?) like Mahammud. Forgive me if any of this is offensive, its not meant to be.
    yes thats true aswell , we do not beleive he was God incarnate in human flesh or that he is the son of god either ............... yes we just beleive him to be a prophet like Muhammed (pbuh)

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    It is interesting and I can't fault you for your beliefs. I would like to hear more, although I stand firm on my convictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    " N PROFEET SAL EK VIR HULLE
    VERWEK UIT DIE MIDDE VAN HULLE BROERS,
    SOOS JY IS.
    EN EK SAL MY WOORDE IN SY MOND LE.
    EN HY SAL AAN HULLE SE
    ALLES WAT EK HOM BEVEEL " (DEUT. 18:18) ( from the fifth book of the jewish n christian bibles )

    english translation of the above verse

    " ( God says to Moses)I Will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and i will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that i shall command him . " (deut. 18:18)

    now here the christians easily say well moses was talking about Jesus , well OKAY ? really ..................... lets look at the similarities Jesus had with moses ............. moses had a father and a mother , Jesus was born of miraculous birth , ( so this doesnt match ) ............ Moses was accepted by his nation he was sent upon , Jesus was not accepted by the nation of jews ( no similarity there ) .......... moses died a natural death , jesus got raised up to heaven ( not crucified thats what we believe ) ....... so that is not so matching either ................. whereas Mohammed (pbuh) had a mother and a father , he was accepted by the nation he was sent upon and also he died a natural death ............ ( there are many other similarities but i just cant put all of them here , so these r the major 3 ) ...
    why does "a prophet like me" have to mean anything about his upbringing? I could say "zoaib, you are a man like me" which is saying we are both men, just as moses is saying jesus is a prophet like him. If you continue in Deu 18, it talks of false prophets. and says in verse 22 "if what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place of come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously." Everything Jesus proclaimed took place. Besides, it talks in the quran of Jesus being the Mesiah, deuteronomy 18: 15-19 is talking of the mesiah. What made you use this verse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    Zoaib, I dont want this to sound dumb, but I thought the only diffrence between Muslims and Christians with regards to Jesus is that Christians believe he was the son of God, but Muslims believe he was just another profit (sp ?) like Mahammud. Forgive me if any of this is offensive, its not meant to be.
    not the only difference. The bible and quran are totally different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    Mohammed has been mentioned by name in the song of solomon 5:16

    the hebrew word used there is Mahammudim the end letters IM is a plural of respect, Majesty and grandeur. So minus the "im" the word would be Mahammud.
    for those who cant find song of solomon in your bible, it may be called song of songs. This confuses me zoaib. First off, I dont have the hebrew in front of me, but im going to assume it is (ill check later but dont see you using it in a debate if it wasnt) but Song of Songs 5:16 says "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

    Now, a little background for those who do not know, the book of Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) is pretty much a back and forth conversation. very small book, like 7 pages. chapter 4 is the consummation of the marriage, from solomon to his bride talking. Then in verse 16, the bride replys in song to solomon. Then in 5:1 goes back to solomon speaking to his bride. In 5:2, it is after the honeymoon and the wif is talking to the daughters of jerusalem, the wife rebuffs her husband. then in verse 9, the daughters of jerusalem reply to the wife, a reminder about her husband, then in chapter 5:10-16 the wife is replying to the daughters as she remembers how fine her husband is. Her husband is Solomon. By verse 16 meaning Muhammad, are you saying solomon is muhammad? it clearly is talking about solomon if you read thru the short book...but if muhammad is used and that is what is meant, the man muhammad, then this confuses me. what says you??

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    for those who cant find song of solomon in your bible, it may be called song of songs. This confuses me zoaib. First off, I dont have the hebrew in front of me, but im going to assume it is (ill check later but dont see you using it in a debate if it wasnt) but Song of Songs 5:16 says "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

    Now, a little background for those who do not know, the book of Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) is pretty much a back and forth conversation. very small book, like 7 pages. chapter 4 is the consummation of the marriage, from solomon to his bride talking. Then in verse 16, the bride replys in song to solomon. Then in 5:1 goes back to solomon speaking to his bride. In 5:2, it is after the honeymoon and the wif is talking to the daughters of jerusalem, the wife rebuffs her husband. then in verse 9, the daughters of jerusalem reply to the wife, a reminder about her husband, then in chapter 5:10-16 the wife is replying to the daughters as she remembers how fine her husband is. Her husband is Solomon. By verse 16 meaning Muhammad, are you saying solomon is muhammad? it clearly is talking about solomon if you read thru the short book...but if muhammad is used and that is what is meant, the man muhammad, then this confuses me. what says you??

    Muhammudim is translated as " altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the bible or "the praised one"

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    why does "a prophet like me" have to mean anything about his upbringing? I could say "zoaib, you are a man like me" which is saying we are both men, just as moses is saying jesus is a prophet like him. If you continue in Deu 18, it talks of false prophets. and says in verse 22 "if what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place of come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously." Everything Jesus proclaimed took place. Besides, it talks in the quran of Jesus being the Mesiah, deuteronomy 18: 15-19 is talking of the mesiah. What made you use this verse?
    here are some more to further my explnation !

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    Any christian would say NO , the bible here talks about Jesus , and he is like Moses , he was a jew just like moses , jesus was a prophet , and so was moses also , THEREFORE Jesus is like Moses !

    OK ! so u say just because of these similarities u are saying Jesus is the one they r talking about in the bible !

    lets see now if that is true then this prophecy will fit Solomon , Isiah , Ezekiel , Daniel , Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the baptist like a glove ............. would it , becuase they were all jews and all prophets it would mean it could have been anyone of them !

    see my conclusion is that Jesus is most Unlike Moses ! Because !
    THE FIRST THREE UNLIKES

    in the first place Jesus is not like Moses , Because According to YOU - JESUS IS GOD , but moses is not God, Right ?

    Secondly according to YOU - Jesus died for the Sins of the world , but moses did not have to die for the sins of the world .......... right ?

    thirdly according to you JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR 3 DAYS , whereas moses did not have to go there , RIGHT ?

    now lets see some more .............

    MARRIAGE TIES

    Moses and Muhammed married and begot children , but jesus remained a bachelor all his life .

    OTHER WORLDLY KINGDOM

    Moses and Muhammed were prophets as well as kings by prophet i mean a man who recieves divine revelation for the guidance of mankind and this guidance he conveys to God's creatures as recieved without any addition or deletion.
    A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people . it is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflincting capital punishment - HE IS A KING , Moses Possessed such a power. DO you remember the israelite who was found picking up firewood on the sabbath day , and Moses had him stoned to death ? (Numbers 15:36)

    there are other crimes also mentioned in the bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the jews at the behest of Moses ................ Muhammed too had the power of life and death over his people !

    some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message , were the prophets Lot, JOnah , Daniel, Ezra and John the baptist ........... they could only deliver the message but not inforce the law . The Holy prophet Jesus unfortunatley falls under the same category .... the Bible confrims this ; when jesus was dragged before the roman gov. Pointus Pilate , charged for sedition, Jesus said in his defense to refute the charges " MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD : IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE".
    (joyhn 18:36)

    NO NEW LAWS

    Moses and Muhammed Brought new laws and new regulations for their people . Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for guidance of his people , Muhammed (pbuh) comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance . they married their stepmothers: they buried their daughters alive , drunkeness , adultery , idolatory and gambling were the order of the day .......... SO he elevated these animals to become Humans after giving them the message ......... and he also gave them The Quran and his practical application of his Laws !

    As regards to Jesus he did not give the jews any new laws or commandments , jsut that they should follow the law of moses without Corruption ..... " THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS; I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY BUT TO FULFIL FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW , TILL ALL BE FULFUILLED" (Matthew 5:17-18)

    HEAVENLY ABODE

    Moses and Muhammed both lie buried in the earth while according to you , Jesus rests in Heaven .

    Further Proofs ..........................

    i have been only proving the phrase from the verse " LIKE UNTO THEE" - Like you - Like MOses , the Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as " I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE "...... the emphasis is on the words " from among their brethren". Moses and his people the jews are here addressed as a racial entity and as much as such their "brethren' undoubtedly be the ARABS , You see the Holy bible speaks of Abraham as the " friend of god" Abraham has two wives - Sarah and Hagar . Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST BORN- " AND ABRAHAM CALLED HIS SON'S NAME WHICH HAGAR BARE , ISHMAEL " ( genesis 16:15) and also ........... " AND ISHMAEL HIS SON WAS THIRTEEN YRS OLD , WHEN HE WAS CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH OF HIS FORESKIN" (genesis 17:25)
    upto the age of 13 ishmael was the only son and seed of abraham. when the covenat was rastified between God and Abraham , God grants another son to him , a son through sarah , named Isaac. Who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael .
    IF ishmael and isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham then they are brothers and so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other ...............

    will post more (god willing) ...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    " Nevertheless, i tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that i go away; for if i go not away , the comforter will not come unto you; but if i depart, i will send him unto you."

    (john 16:7)

    this is the actual verse i was talking about here many christians have interpreted the word COMFORTER to be used as regarding to the Holy ghost , although some bibles have already replaced the word comforter to say HOLY GHOST .............. but the fact remains that this word was originally translated from the GREEK word PARAKLEETAY ........... Parakleetay literally mean " The praised ONE " .................. and hence the literal meaning of Mohammed (pbuh) is " The ONE worthy of Praise " ............ and clearly in this verse jesus fortells of his comming !
    MAX what do u guys make out of this verse ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    not the only difference. The bible and quran are totally different.
    yes the Quran n the bible are totally different , because The bible has three tenses in it , meaning , quotes directly by Jesus , quotes directly by the apostles and prophets , and third quotes Directly from God , as he would be speaking to the people !

    Quran on the other hand only has one tense , that is , God (Allah-The God) directly talking to the people .

    but u know now that i think of it , Quran contains all the stories of the past prophets , including , Adam , Noah , Jospeh , Jacob , Daniel , Lot , Abraham , Solomon , MOses , Jesus ................. there are total 72 great prophets mentioned in the quran regarding when they came and what they did , just like the bible , so that is quite similar ............. other than that the above i mentioned there is a difference in the TONE of both the books ...... our Sayings of the prophet are in a completely different book ,which has nothign to do with the quran except , to read that as supporting media ............. some people beleive in them and some dont ! ............ but for the muslims Quran itself is the only guidance for salvation !

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    why does "a prophet like me" have to mean anything about his upbringing? I could say "zoaib, you are a man like me" which is saying we are both men, just as moses is saying jesus is a prophet like him. If you continue in Deu 18, it talks of false prophets. and says in verse 22 "if what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place of come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously." Everything Jesus proclaimed took place. Besides, it talks in the quran of Jesus being the Mesiah, deuteronomy 18: 15-19 is talking of the mesiah. What made you use this verse?
    isnt there a verse where Jesus says " You shall know them by their fruits " i dotn exactly know where it is in the bible ................. but i know cause i ahve heard this verse a lot of times ................. so considering that the fruit of Muhammed is pretty visible i mean 1.3 billion muslims and 2 billion christians , pretty good stats ...............atleast thats how i see it !

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    for those who cant find song of solomon in your bible, it may be called song of songs. This confuses me zoaib. First off, I dont have the hebrew in front of me, but im going to assume it is (ill check later but dont see you using it in a debate if it wasnt) but Song of Songs 5:16 says "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

    Now, a little background for those who do not know, the book of Song of Songs (Song of Solomon) is pretty much a back and forth conversation. very small book, like 7 pages. chapter 4 is the consummation of the marriage, from solomon to his bride talking. Then in verse 16, the bride replys in song to solomon. Then in 5:1 goes back to solomon speaking to his bride. In 5:2, it is after the honeymoon and the wif is talking to the daughters of jerusalem, the wife rebuffs her husband. then in verse 9, the daughters of jerusalem reply to the wife, a reminder about her husband, then in chapter 5:10-16 the wife is replying to the daughters as she remembers how fine her husband is. Her husband is Solomon. By verse 16 meaning Muhammad, are you saying solomon is muhammad? it clearly is talking about solomon if you read thru the short book...but if muhammad is used and that is what is meant, the man muhammad, then this confuses me. what says you??
    if u want to compliment someone you can call them by a name which reflects the attributes of the person , just like people these days name thier kids , Adam , Moses , Mohammed etc etc ....................... so if u look at it she used the word Mahmamudim to compliment her husband , but my view of this is that this name was later on given to a prophet who shared the same attributes under this name ! thats all ................. but look forward to some more verses i think this thread will benefit u and me vice versa knowing our true beliefs , alteast my intention is to educate the lot of u , about our beliefs and what differences n similarties we may have !

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    Zoaib, thanks this is interesting. I read in another post that you discount the writings of Paul (Saul), why would his writings be any less credible than Muhammud to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Zoaib, thanks this is interesting. I read in another post that you discount the writings of Paul (Saul), why would his writings be any less credible than Muhammud to you?
    first there is a difference between Paul n Muhammed , Paul was not given the revelation of the bible directly from God , Jesus was the one who got the message , so Paul and Muhammed are not of the same category , also becuase Paul was not a prophet , the other reason we discredit his accountability is because he never met Jesus in real life , and after Jesus's passing 30-40 yrs time frame , he rose up to proclaim he has seen jesus , now since he was jewish that puts a little more into the discrediting , since After Muhammed had passed away , many jews claimed to be muslims and that they were now getting divine revelations from Muhammed and to continue the Quran , u can say it was a plan to corrupt the religion ......... and since Muhammed had told his followers there will be false prophets claiming to be divinely inspired after him , and so all of those guys who rose up were executed .

    there are two types of SO CALLED MUSLIMS under the cult names of AHMADIS and QUAIDIANI , both these cults proclaim that Muhammed was not the last prophet and their GURU is a reincarnate of Muhammed .......... these two groups which consist of 2% of the total muslims around the world have been internationally pronounced NON-MUSLIMS by all muslim countries ! so basically the devil lets no oppourtunity pass to corrupt as much as he can the word of God , and then only God is the one who will protect is everlasting message ................. for muslims atleast for the TRUE ones there are no IF , ANDS, & BUTS in religion , u either follow or u dont ! i hope that kinda gives u the idea why we are soo skeptical about pauls authority on christianity , with no offense intended !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    " Nevertheless, i tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that i go away; for if i go not away , the comforter will not come unto you; but if i depart, i will send him unto you."

    (john 16:7)
    cool zoiab.

    this word confused the crap out of me in catholic school. but that is another verse in the bible in john that says the comforter = the holy ghost. But it is in parenthises, I belive.

    but i was taught the holy ghost existed from the beginning of time, then why did Jesus have to say that the holy ghost would not return until Jesus leaves the earth. If the holy ghost was in the world for all time.

    max can you explain that, maybe I am confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    not the only difference. The bible and quran are totally different.
    yes and the old testament and the new testament are totally different.

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    http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Paul/paul_and_islam.htm

    A good read on the status of saul in islam.

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    ive been afk for a while on drugs from surgery...will reply in a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    ive been afk for a while on drugs from surgery...will reply in a bit
    take your time MAX , but i do look forward to your replies , since this thread has really gotten me intrigued in everyway !

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockSolid
    cool zoiab.

    this word confused the crap out of me in catholic school. but that is another verse in the bible in john that says the comforter = the holy ghost. But it is in parenthises, I belive.

    but i was taught the holy ghost existed from the beginning of time, then why did Jesus have to say that the holy ghost would not return until Jesus leaves the earth. If the holy ghost was in the world for all time.

    max can you explain that, maybe I am confused.
    the word comforter was translated from the GREEK word PARAKLEETAY , look up any greek dictionary and ull see its original meaning !

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    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    this verse indeed can be taken it two ways , since both Muhammed and Paul testified of Jesus .................. but here is a verse which is in contradiction with the above.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    this verse is talking about the holy ghost comming after jesus , so was paul also the holy ghost ???

    also the word ghost was not in the vocab of the old english , the word ghost has been added to the english dictionary only 100 yrs ago or so .............. the original word was spirit of truth ...........

    The editors of the KJV (The King James Version) alternatively called AV (The Authorised Version) and the DOUAY (The Roman Catholic Version) of the Bibles gave preference to the word "GHOST' instead of the word SPIRIT when translating "pneuma"

    The revisers of the RSV (Revised Standard Version) 1 the most up-to-date version of the Bible, are going back, as claimed, to the Most Ancient manuscripts. These revisers, described as "thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence, backed by fifty co-operating denominations" who courageously re-placed the shady word "ghost" with the word "spirit" Hence from now on you will read in all modem translations — "The Comforter which is the Holy SPIRIT"! However, the Christian crusaders and the televangelists stubbornly cling to the spooky ("ghost"-ly) past They will not opt for the Newer Versions.

    wat say U Max ?
    Last edited by ZOAIB; 01-24-2005 at 09:43 AM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOAIB
    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    that is the verse I was talking about, that said the comforter = the holy ghost.

    but good question, on this particular post.

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    Zoaib, This is refreshing, a nice change from the hostility (from both sides). This is no disrespect for Muhhamed but this is where the fork in the road is from what I can tell.

    You believe Jesus and Muhhamed are spiritually "equal" for lack of a better way to put it. This equality is based on your discounting of Paul although he knew the prophets he did not know Jesus in "person". Please give me the verse where Paul says he has seen Jesus in person, in the flesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Zoaib, This is refreshing, a nice change from the hostility (from both sides). This is no disrespect for Muhhamed but this is where the fork in the road is from what I can tell.

    You believe Jesus and Muhhamed are spiritually "equal" for lack of a better way to put it. This equality is based on your discounting of Paul although he knew the prophets he did not know Jesus in "person". Please give me the verse where Paul says he has seen Jesus in person, in the flesh.
    em i dont think i understand , but i never said Paul saw or new jesus in the flesh , according to u paul saw jesus in a vision in the form of god ! right ?

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    It is in Acts 9:3 that he sees him as a light from Heaven and Jesus speaks to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    It is in Acts 9:3 that he sees him as a light from Heaven and Jesus speaks to him.
    okay that makes sense now , but its right ! that Paul saw him as a vision of some sort ,right ?

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    Yes that is correct he saw Him as a light and was blinded for three days.

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