01-29-2005, 12:14 AM #1
For those of you who are Anti-God... consider........
I posted this on another thread but i wanted to see what responses people would have to this... i'm not that religious myself, but to me... i can totally understand those who are, this is why....................
if there is no god,everyone is insignificant... but so also are the ideas of good and bad... good and bad come from the fact that a deity holds one responsible for his or her actions... as good is an action that god wants you to do and bad or evil are actions that are opposite of those good actions... lets examine what good and evil are without a god........ they are nothing but words... the fact that i will be held accountable for my actions post-life causes me to act in a "good" way... if there is no god, what is keeping me from killing you, stealing your wallet or doing whatever i want to you or anyone else (assuming i can get away with it)??? there is nothing that holds me from doing these things... so why the hell would i do them??? it doesnt make sense to act accountably if there is nobody to be accountable to... for example... would you have done your homework in middleschool if the teacher didn't assign it? HELL NO... just like you wouldnt do something that will make you worse off (not stealing or taking money out of somebody's wallet) unless you are told not to by somebody who can actually know that you did it (the gov wouldnt know if you stole 20 bucks from a friends wallet)... so it doesnt make sense, if you are right, for any of us to do anything that is better for ourselves... if nobody sees it, it didnt happen.......
secondly... this is an age in which one hold science and reason paramount... however, it is unreasonable to not believe in god... pascal's wager is as follows.............
What are the outcomes in your choice to believe in God???
1. If you belive in god and there isnt a god you are fine... nothing happens...
2. If you don't believe in god and there isnt a god you are fine... nothing happens...
3. If you believe in god and there is a god you go to heaven... something good happens...
4. If you don't believe in god and there is a god you are in some S*** because you are going to hell...
*** the only bad thing that happens to you is if you dont believe in god and there is a god... why would you chose to do that??? it is unreasonable and illogical... do do this you are acting irrationally... also, to believe in god you are chosing the choice with the only positive outcome... why wouldnt you do this??? just answer that question
third... for those of you who say there is not a god... how arrogant are you to assume that you are the largest thing in the world or... your importance as that of everything elses in the world... if no god exists what disinguishes one particle from another??? the answer is nothing... how arrogant are you to assume that you know that in an infinite universe you can make an assumption that nothing exists outside of your finite reach and perspective??? how arrogant and ignorant do you have to be to tell me that no god exists out past where our eye can see through telescopes, or any other scientific meathod??? your problem is that you cant be intelligent and be an atheist, the two don't go hand in hand... for example... atheism involves knowing... or believing that there is no god... to do so you have to base all of your knowledge on science because that is all that is left for you unless you are a relativist in which case we shouldnt even be talking because relatively speaking we are both correct, and, you wouldnt argue with anybody's beliefs if you were anyway, because you would believe they were right as well...... and if all of your beliefs are based on a finite science, then it is impossible to tell anyone that no god exists in an infinite universe given finite scoping devices, because theoretically a god could exist outside of your reach... due to this you cant tell me that no god exits, so all you can be is agnostic...
01-29-2005, 05:02 AM #2
I dont se how a god is the only reason to be good and kind. Look at the buddhist way. No god's. no one is "forced" to be good in anyway.
also why wouldnt it be possible for a afterlife to exists even if no god does exists? What makes you bold enough to make such a statement?
01-29-2005, 05:20 AM #3Associate Member
Originally Posted by EatRite
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Originally Posted by EatRite
Originally Posted by EatRite
01-29-2005, 09:00 AM #4Member
Originally Posted by EatRite
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Yeah but their many things your leaving out. What GOD must you believe in since their are 100's of religious, and most say the other religious are going to hell. Hey I agree their could be a God, however we know nothing of him, so we cannot say for sure what he wants. Maybe he want us to go through life caring as much as possible without praising any false God's?? It just does not make sense. The Earth has been here for billions of years and why would a god only make his presence around the time Jesus on Earth. Also if a person believes in God JUST for going to heaven and nothing else do you think he would be a sucker for somthing that stupid? Heck if humans can tell if their being used, i'm sure he would have not problem knowing so. I really wish their was a God and that everyone born got to meet him and KNOW exactly how to serve him. NO God would ever expect people to serve by his word without giving every human word of what he wants through some means. Hell the least he could do is make once presence at a meeting of world leaders, to decredit all false religons and make knowen the true one.
01-29-2005, 09:20 AM #5
I think its a good post. This line jumped out most to me right.
"would you have done your homework in middleschool if the teacher didn't assign it?"
Thats a key sentence. Ill put other words in there in how I believe.'
"would you do good if God didn't assign it?"
As for you Odin, on what God must you believe in...First off you must believe there is A god...then you must actively pursue the true God, do your research, ask questions, and you'll become a christian. (smile) You say "we know nothing of him" That is what the bible is. why make his presence only around the time Jesus on Earth? He makes his presence all the time...but if you mean, in the body of man (as Jesus), why should he keep coming back as man? as for believing in God JUST for going to heaven. To me, its not just believing to get to heaven...yea, it may be at first why you seek God, but after that, to me its not just about going to heaven, its about praising our maker. Heaven is a reward for my praise and living life as He wanted. Though in the beginning, im sure I was the same way, I wanna go to heaven, im going to believe, but then as you mature in spirit, you start to change your views a little for the better. as for the rest of your post, if he made himself known, why would anyone NOT choose him? Thats the point. We have a choice. God or Lucifer. I believe if you actively look and dont just take the easy way out and pick the first religion you come to, but do more than the avg person and look at background, look at archaeological finds, look at what each "religions' book" teaches and such, you'll make the right choice. God wants noone to perish, and if you actively look, as the words of the knight in "indiana jones and the last crusade" you will "have chosen...wisely".
01-29-2005, 09:37 AM #6Member
Originally Posted by max2extreme
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01-29-2005, 09:44 AM #7Originally Posted by Odin
01-29-2005, 09:44 AM #8
Perhaps not the film part...hehe
01-29-2005, 10:33 AM #9Writer
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There's already a very long thread here about Pascal's Wager. In short, he states that it is better to believe in God than not to. And he's right. But that doesn't prove there is a God.
01-29-2005, 10:45 AM #10Originally Posted by johan
01-29-2005, 11:01 AM #11Originally Posted by ZOAIB
My mom and pop created me and they arent smarter nor more powerfull then me
So in your oppinion free will is a ilusion? We are all just puppets to god?
01-29-2005, 11:02 AM #12Originally Posted by ZOAIB
01-29-2005, 11:03 AM #13
Sorry guys but its a matter of faith, Every form of religion on the planet from the beginning of time has believed without a doubt that there own version was the correct one, and the all mighty would favor them above all others. This is true without exception.
This also applies to those who choose not to believe in God, they have chosen this through there own form of faith. So as entertaining as these discussions may be, not one of you will sway any other in any way, ever.
Last edited by singern; 01-29-2005 at 11:05 AM.
01-29-2005, 01:08 PM #14Originally Posted by johan
01-29-2005, 01:10 PM #15
yeah there is a very detailed thread about pascals wager. Besides, if god is all knowing I think he'd know a true believer from one who just wanted to belive in him 'just in case' and probably would favor the nonbeliever who at least lived by his own convictions instead of fear.
but then again, I cant speak for god
01-29-2005, 01:22 PM #16
You are assuming we believe because we are afraid.............quite the contrary for me. AS far as who is right, the post was not about a specific belief system , just a basic belief in God.
Some peole are too smart for there own Dam* good. That is arrogance.
01-29-2005, 01:24 PM #17Originally Posted by 1victor
I am sure there are people who believe for their own reasons. But people who believe because of pascals wagers, are frauds. and I bet god would see right through them
edit: what i mean is, I never assumed -have never will never- assume that the only people who belive in god -wheather organized religion or not- believe only because they are afraid. I belive in god (in a sense) I just dont see him/her/it in any organized religion. thats me. What Im saying is that people who use pascals wager to choose to believe, are fakes. and Im sure (but as i said i cannot speak for god) that god would rather have someone who didnt believe in him for the right reasons, as opposed to someone who did for the wrong. Otherwise god would not have given us free will
Last edited by symatech; 01-29-2005 at 01:28 PM.
01-29-2005, 01:29 PM #18
That is a given. My main point was people thinking they can fully comprehend God.
01-29-2005, 01:31 PM #19Originally Posted by 1victor
01-29-2005, 01:50 PM #20
I hope no one takes offense to my question, but if as you say no one can fully understand, and or comprehend the word of god.
How then do you explain organized religions that claim to be following the word of God? How do we know anyone is actually doing Gods will, and how is it every religion defines Gods will in different ways, yet still claims to be doing the right thing.
I say again this is a genuine curiosity, and not meant to offend anyone...
01-29-2005, 01:52 PM #21
God in his entirety cannot be comprehended. Peoples unanswered questions , they could not comprehend the answers.
01-29-2005, 01:52 PM #22Originally Posted by ZOAIB
So in a way the muslim oppinion can be enturpited as that god used a bit of his energy to create all the matter in the universe? Interesting..
But Im more inclined to the buddhist ways
01-29-2005, 02:19 PM #23
No takers to my question?
01-29-2005, 02:28 PM #24
I will take it. The principles of humanity that are most commonly shared are Gods will. You can look at various religions all over the world and there are shared common moral beliefs. The nuances are what make each unique to its' culture.
I don't kill, not because someone said it is bad, but because inside of me there is a voice that says it is wrong. This represents Gods will IMO.
01-29-2005, 02:30 PM #25
I believe that there is a God. I believe that everything happens for a reason, be it good or be it bad. I do not believe in coincidence. Every positive and negative event that we humans experience happen for a reason. I believe that God gives us all a choice in how we choose to live our lives. Whether or not God agrees with all of the choices that we make is another story. Every action has a reaction. Every decision that we make has a circumstance, be it good or be it bad. To me...God is all about relativity. We humans are just incapable of adhering to relativity at all times. Perfection we are not. If someone chooses to believe and practice religion, then more power to them. If someone does not wish to believe and practice religion, then more power to them, too. However, whatever path people choose to follow usually dictates their mindset, which in turn has a profound effect on their overall well-being, be it good or be it bad. Personally, I do not believe in a grey area. Something either is or it is not. I believe that there is a greater power that created all living life-forms and the planet that we live on, the universe for which our planet is apart of and everything else within our solar system and beyond it. Ponder this question. How was it possible for the planets, galaxies, solar systems and all life-forms that we are currently aware of to come about out of the great nothing? Was it a spectacular magic trick? Or...Was it a greater power?
01-29-2005, 02:36 PM #26Associate Member
Originally Posted by max2extreme
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01-29-2005, 02:42 PM #27Originally Posted by 1victor
However religions of all flavors have detailed scriptures, commands, and instructions, all said to be the word of God. Yet every religion interprets them in there own way.
Having said that isn't it vain for one particular religion to believe it is the one true religion, which by default means all others are then false...(wow that was deep maybe it should be its own thread.)
Last edited by singern; 01-29-2005 at 02:55 PM.
01-29-2005, 02:43 PM #28Originally Posted by singern
01-29-2005, 02:45 PM #29Originally Posted by scorp
Agreed, but if so then how do we know we are truely following the word of God?
01-29-2005, 02:57 PM #30Originally Posted by johan
I would say that. Buddhist believe in devas. One in particular, Ishvara, the creator god. This person historically and theologically speaking, is the one that Judism became to call Yahweh
From a Buddhist text
"I am Brahmâ, the Great Brahmâ, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that is and will be." (Dîgha Nikáya, II, 263).
While typically, Brahman is a Hinduist belief, some Buddhist see "him" as a deva, although on a lesser level than Budha.
It is very different than modern religions thouhg.
01-29-2005, 03:00 PM #31Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
What does the word deva mean? Is it realy a god or just a enlightened man?
01-29-2005, 03:02 PM #32
.sorry i havent responded earlier, i havent had the opportunity, i hadda get some sleep and workout this morning... anyway...
ODIN: as for which religion to follow, the bible says... in laymens terms that all the clues are out there and that we have to search for god and examine the facts and then come to our conclusion... for me, i think the facts are out there... i think that no human, no matter how intelligent can't disprove god's existance... but its very logical for a god to exist... for example... the probability of us evolving without the hand or assistance of god is so small that it isnt possible... and you say... how is it not possible??? well a good analogy is this: the liklihood of us evolving BY CHANCE is actually WORSE than the chances of all the pieces to a b52 bomber being in a field and having a tornado coming though and assembling the peices into a B52 bomber.... you may say, how are the chances that slim??? well if you know anything about the production of dna and the synthesis of cells you would know this... having all of the peices attached as they are is absolutely amazing! if you just study the human eye and learn how our body converts light into pictures that our minds can visualize and quickly return the chemical that caused the neuro. signals sent to the brain back to what it began at so that it can process light again and give us consecutive pictures to that we can see streams of pictures which we interpret as vision... its absolutely amazing that we are the way we are... i dont understand how one can look at nature and see all of the things in detail and then assume that nothing created us... it blows my mind... or the fact that birds have a way to know which direction is south so that they can fly there for the winter... they have a compass built into their dam* heads which is magnetized just like a normal compass... these things are amazing... the more knowledge you have the more you realize how unintelligent you actually are and how magnificent the world really is... study these things and then religion and then make your choice... to blindly make a decision about which god to worship is stuipid... and what is even dumber is to make a blind decision on whether a god exists or not... learn these things and then decide...
i stated that i am not that religious myself... i'm in the process of learning... i've studied christianity probably just as much as anybody around, and i have many muslim friends... i try to learn as much as i can, and from what i've gathered, most religions have similar principals... treat others as you want to be treated, at "good," respect god, and worship him (worshiping god consists of worshiping something better than yourself, the creator of the universe)... in my oppinion i dont think god much cares which exact form of him you study and worship... catholocism and protistantism are very similar, they differ in only one little thing which they base their ideas on, but if you truely believe god exists and live by faith, what is the difference in the two? nothing... if you are a muslim and worship god, do all the things he wants you to, why do you assume that god wouldnt be accepting??? he knows we are stupid and so much lesser than him, how is anybody to know which form to worship??? well study them and see which makes sense... i'm not saying that all religions are created equally...i'm just saying if you belive in god with all ur heart and worship him as well as act in a "good" way... yea you probably will go to heaven, but i dont know i'm still learning.... and you may say... well... what is defined as good? most religions preach, don't steal, cheat, use god's name in vain, kill, etc... the principals are similar...
HOOKER: pascal's wager doesn't prove god exists... you are right, it doesnt, but doesnt it make sense to at least study up on religions and learn what they preach, try to see where it takes you??? you can't tell me that a god doesnt exist because you simply don't know, so arent you curious about wheather he does or not??? don't you care that you could possibly be thrown into a lake of fire??? i'm not preaching to you or saying you will be, but personally i'm a little curious about this myself and i wanna avoid that at all costs, however, it may not even happen, we simply dont know... but just because we don't know doesnt excuse us from trying to find out and doesnt excuse us from acting poorly for however long we live...
VICTOR1... why do you not walk around queens with a sack of money wide open so people can see it??? because of fear... fear is not a bad thing, it is instilled in us to protect us... the bible says that we should fear god, and we should... if fear of satan or being eternally ****ed doesnt phase you than you need to examine how bad that could be if it were true... we should fear god's power as well because if he exists, we are so small compared to him...
CARBS RULE: you said that u don't understand what i meant by us being equal to everything in the universe........ what i mean is that if we are just a collection of atoms... randomly assembled from the result of the big bang, what distinguishes you from a tree, a cat,dog a planet... nothing... if no god exists, then nothing is better or worse than you are, because the only thing truely bigger than us in religion is god and his principals... without something that is better than we are, you are saying that you are equally great to anything in the universe because there is nothing that isnt what you are... just a random collection of atoms...
CARBS RULE: the only reason we have good and bad is because of god... without god there is no reason to act "good" or act "bad" because nothing matters... why does it mattter if one collection of randomly assembled atoms ends the life of another collection of assmbled atoms... in fact, what is life??? it is nothing at all... all it is is a group of atoms that is arranged in such a way that it can do other things and move around, once that assembly is broken those atoms still exist, they are just waiting to be broken down from the assembly and assembled into something else... thats all we are is just a random collection of these particles... why does it matter what we do??? it doesnt... the only reason we are to act good is because it will benefit us later...................
01-29-2005, 03:04 PM #33Originally Posted by singern
Faith is the critical component. It is up to the believer to decide what is right for them.
01-29-2005, 03:10 PM #34
God doesn't want us to fear Him he wants us to love Him. Free will remember.
01-29-2005, 03:13 PM #35
the bible says that we should "fear god"... you are assuming that you can't fear and love something... you can... when i was 14 i was scared ****less of my dad, but i loved him at the same time... it is the same thing with god... christians believe he is their "father" you should fear the power of your father and still love him... i'll bet you fear the powers that be in america, but you love the fact that our gov. protects us so much... ya know??? well i'm not going to assume what you do or dont like about the u.s. gov but i think u get my point....
01-29-2005, 03:24 PM #36
I'm just going to comment on the title of this thread...
"For those of you who are Anti-God... consider........"
Why do you assume that a non-believer would be "anti-god"? To be anti-god one would actually have to care or be concerned with religion or the existance of a god...
Now personally I don't believe in god, religion or any mysticism. There is NO doubt in my mind whatsoever that religion and god is nothing more than a fabrication by man, for whatever reason.
Whereas a person who believes in a god may spend some time reflecting on it's existance, motives or whatever, a person like me doesn't spend ANY time on the subject (except when folks try and shove their god down my throat) as I just don't care. To me it's a fact that there is no god(s) just as it's a fact that the sky is blue...
You'll notice I said "to me" and "to a person like me"... nowhere did I attempt to shove my convictions down anyones throat, and thats mostly because like all true atheists I simply don't care what others believe in and don't spend any time on it. Please don't assume that people who don't share your beliefs are anti-god...
01-29-2005, 03:31 PM #37Originally Posted by scorp
01-29-2005, 03:32 PM #38
Red C: first off, i'm not religious... secondly... you cant be sure that there is no god... just because you don't think about it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist... for example... i dont think about the production of t-shirts in indonesia at all, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt happen... to assume that just because it isnt important to you it doesnt exist is probably one of the dumbest things i've ever heard... and you arent "factual" that no god exists... it cant be proven... so to say that this is true is to contradict our societal scientific ideologies, where science is held paramount... if you don't believe in science what do you believe in??? o wait, you BELEIVE that their is no god, that is your belief...what i'm argueing is that you can't factually know that god doesnt exist because you have a finite perspective of the universe, in other words, u dont know what is outside of oursight... to say that you do is ignorant and doesnt make sense... tell me that ur agnostic, but don't tell me u are an atheist because if you knew anything about religion you wouldnt do that... and thirdly... i'm not pushing anything on you this is a board where people talk about things, you don't have to read my posts or respond... you chose to do that just like you are chosing to believe no god exists... i respect your belief, but personally from what you just said on this board, i think it is an uneducated one....
01-29-2005, 03:35 PM #39
your claim of there beeing a god is just as uneducated as red's claim there is no god. Neither side has any evidence.
The most educated thing to say seems to be that no one can be sure
01-29-2005, 03:36 PM #40
ohhh and i don't assume you are anti-god... i didnt assume anything about you... but in your own words "to me a god/s dont exist"... therefore you have a believe that no god exists... this means that you would argue that no god exists... you are against the thought that god exists... you have anti-god (in other words... you believe god doesnt exist) ideologies... i'm sorry if you took offense to that, what i mean by anti god is that you do not believe in his existance....
...."You'll notice I said "to me" and "to a person like me"... nowhere did I attempt to shove my convictions down anyones throat"........
if you are are a relativist then please say so because i will stop wasting my time talking to you....
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