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  1. #1
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    For Cycleon and those of his ilk

    Since you like throwing fictional stories in my face.......how bout some real history?




    Wounded knee

    Reaction to the battle among the American public was generally favorable. 20 Congressional Medals of Honor were awarded to federal soldiers. Many Americans living near the Indian reservations interpreted the battle as a defeat of a murderous cult, though some confused Ghost Dancers with Indians in general.

    In an editorial in response to the event, a young newspaper editor, L. Frank Baum, later famous as the author of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, wrote in the Aberdeen Saturday Pioneer on January 3, 1891:

    The Pioneer has before declared that our only safety depends upon the total extermination of the Indians. Having wronged them for centuries, we had better, in order to protect our civilization, follow it up by one more wrong and wipe these untamed and untamable creatures from the face of the earth. In this lies future safety for our settlers and the soldiers who are under incompetent commands. Otherwise, we may expect future years to be as full of trouble with the redskins as those have been in the past.

    Baum was probably a relative of Cycleon........

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    I think a historical recount of the battle would be appropriate for those who are unfamiliar with what you are talking about (Historian Howard Zinn has published a nice account).

  3. #3
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    I would assume cycleon feels the same way about Arabs.......untamed and needing to be exterminated

  4. #4
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    Or since I have Cherokee blood in my veins.....how bout this:

    National Historic Trail

    The Cherokee Trail of Tears
    1838-1839
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Federal Indian Removal Policy

    Early in the 19th century, the United States felt threatened by England and Spain, who held land in the western continent. At the same time, American settlers clamored for more land. Thomas Jefferson proposed the creation of a buffer zone between U.S. and European holdings, to be inhabited by eastern American Indians. This plan would also allow for American expansion westward from the original colonies to the Mississippi River.
    *
    *
    President
    Andrew Jackson
    Between 1816 and 1840, tribes located between the original states and the Mississippi River, including Cherokees, Chickasaws, Choctaws, Creeks, and Seminoles, signed more than 40 treaties ceding their lands to the U.S. In his 1829 inaugural address, President Andrew Jackson set a policy to relocate eastern Indians. In 1830 it was endorsed, when Congress passed the Indian Removal Act to force those remaining to move west of the Mississippi. Between 1830 and 1850, about 100,000 American Indians living between Michigan, Louisiana, and Florida moved west after the U.S. government coerced treaties or used the U.S. Army against those resisting. Many were treated brutally. An estimated 3,500 Creeks died in Alabama and on their westward journey. Some were transported in chains.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Cherokees
    General
    Winfield Scott
    Historically, Cherokees occupied lands in several southeastern states. As European settlers arrived, Cherokees traded and intermarried with them. They began to adopt European customs and gradually turned to an agricultural economy, while being pressured to give up traditional homelands. Between 1721 and 1819, over 90 percent of their lands were ceded to others. By the 1820s, Sequoyah's syllabary brought literacy and a formal governing system with a written constitution. In 1830--the same year the Indian Removal Act was passed--gold was found on Cherokee lands. Georgia held lotteries to give Cherokee land and gold rights to whites. Cherokees were not allowed to conduct tribal business, contract, testify in courts against whites, or mine for gold.

    The Cherokees successfully challenged Georgia in the U.S. Supreme Court. President Jackson, when hearing of the Court's decision, reportedly said, "[Chief Justice] John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Treaty of New Echota
    Major Ridge
    Most Cherokees opposed removal. Yet a minority felt that it was futile to continue to fight. They believed that they might survive as a people only if they signed a treaty with the U.S.

    In December 1835, the U.S. sought out this minority to effect a treaty at New Echota, Georgia. Only 300 to 500 Cherokees were there; none were elected officials of the Cherokee Nation. Twenty signed the treaty, ceding all Cherokee territory east of the Mississippi to the U.S., in exchange for $5 million and new homelands in Indian Territory.

    More than 15,000 Cherokees protested the illegal treaty. Yet, on May 23, 1836, the Treaty of New Echota was ratified by the U.S. Senate--by just one vote.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Many Days Pass And People Die Very Much"

    Most Cherokees, including Chief John Ross, did not believe that they would be forced to move. In May 1838, Federal troops and state militias began the roundup of the Cherokees into stockades. In spite of warnings to troops to treat the Cherokees kindly, the roundup proved harrowing.

    Families were separated--the elderly and ill forced out at gunpoint-- people given only moments to collect cherished possessions. White looters followed, ransacking homesteads as Cherokees were led away.
    *
    *
    Chief John Ross
    Three groups left in the summer, traveling from present-day Chattanooga by rail, boat, and wagon, primarily on the Water Route. But river levels were too low for navigation; one group, traveling overland in Arkansas, suffered three to five deaths each day due to illness and drought.

    Fifteen thousand captives still awaited removal. Crowding, poor sanitation, and drought made them miserable. Many died. The Cherokees asked to postpone removal until the fall, and to voluntarily remove themselves. The delay was granted, provided they remain in internment camps until travel resumed.

    By November, 12 groups of 1,000 each were trudging 800 miles overland to the west. The last party, including Chief Ross, went by water. Now, heavy autumn rains and hundreds of wagons on the muddy route made roads impassable; little grazing and game could be found to supplement meager rations.

    Two-thirds of the ill-equipped Cherokees were trapped between the ice-bound Ohio and Mississippi Rivers during January. Although suffering from a cold, Quatie Ross, the Chief's wife, gave her only blanket to a child.
    *
    "Long time we travel on way to new land. People feel bad when they leave Old Nation. Womens cry and make sad wails, Children cry and many men cry...but they say nothing and just put heads down and keep on go towards West. Many days pass and people die very much."
    Recollections of a survivor

    She died of pneumonia at Little Rock. Some drank stagnant water and succumbed to disease. One survivor told how his father got sick and died; then, his mother; then, one by one, his five brothers and sisters. "One each day. Then all are gone."

    By March 1839, all survivors had arrived in the west. No one knows how many died throughout the ordeal, but the trip was especially hard on infants, children, and the elderly. Missionary doctor Elizur Butler, who accompanied the Cherokees, estimated that over 4,000 died--nearly a fifth of the Cherokee population.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Epilogue

    In August 1839, John Ross was elected Principal Chief of the reconstituted Cherokee Nation. Tahlequah, Oklahoma was its capital. It remains tribal headquarters for the Cherokee Nation today.

    About 1,000 Cherokees in Tennessee and North Carolina escaped the roundup. They gained recognition in 1866, establishing their tribal government in 1868 in Cherokee, North Carolina. Today, they are known as the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians.

  5. #5
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    Before you get so self righteous boy - my family who has been here for more than 400 years - and I also have Cherokee blood - and there was no other tribe so unjustly screwed as the cherokee - and before you speak you might want to get your information from more than a few "noble indian" garbage commercials and idiots like Ward Churchill.

    the algonquin and the iroquoi (in the north) were our enemies long before we were a country - great warriors too - many tribes in the west did threaten the people who were coming there to settle - I do not claim that we had any God given right to the land - although we certainly had paid for it to Spain and France, who had taken claim to areas before and subgugated those that they could - but the stronger always has claim. Yet the battles with the indian tribes were nothing compared to the damage done to them by our diseases for which they had not built immunity and our large scale devestation to the buffalo, which was their primary food source. Yet many of these tribes were led by people who were indeed dangerous.

    Yet the Cherokees were everything that anyone could ask for. They alone had a written language, were excellent farmers, had intermarried in many cases, were mostly Christian and were difficult to discern from europeans if not in ceremonial dress. They had great leadership and were as civilized as most any other residents in the area. Yet the Trail of Tears was a horror was just as horrifying as if someone asked you to pick up and move 800 miles into the west without even the chance to go back to your apartment for your stuff.

    Now, many years hence - we have given anyone that could prove a spit of indian blood in them a gambling liscense these days - and made them rich - yet what have the cherokees gotten? nada - is this right? no. is there anything that we can do to change that travesty of our history? no. - Should we be proud of these instances in our history? no. Will those who performed them be held to account in eternity? I believe so.

    BUT WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH HATING YOUR COUNTRY TODAY? NO ONE ALIVE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THAT. Yet you still are disgusted.

    I couls tell you of the millions that the US has saved, the lives bettered at such a cost but such things I dont think matter to you.

  6. #6
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    I am a parrot on this one...........CYCLEON well put my friend. The Indians had as much to do with their own demise as the "white man". My great, great grandmother was Cree or something, I'll have to ask my dad. The vision of an Indian standing on the side of the road looking at trash and crying is sh*t. They raped this land like everyone else, overcut trees, were on their way to causing extinction of the buffalo with the "white man", and didn't sit around hugging plant life and mammals.

    They used our troops against each other to try to gain power but it backfired, they played the game and they lost, period.

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    My dad had Mohawk blood! But I'm Jewish. I got some Irish in there somewhere too.

    Bottom Line..............................I'm AMERICAN and PROUD. No culture or country has ever been without fault. But, dammit I still feel we are the most free and compassionate country that has ever been. Do we make mistakes? YES. We needed to have Pearl Harbor bombed before we would enter WWII. We were intensely nationalistic at the time. Funny thing is.....why did 3 Aircraft carriers leave Pearl un -escorted 3 day before the bombing??????? Roosevelt needed something to appease the people and government before he could commit troops. Don't believe me? Check it out. My great Uncle who is still alive was there. he lost most of his leg on Gudalcanal. He would spit in anyones face that disrespected the flag the country or the commander in chief. Again we are not perfect but we are the best game in town. WE ELECTED OUR PRESIDENT. It is time to put petty differences aside and stand united. Maybe something good could come from it................I don't agree with GW on everything, but I don't agree with my boss either, and he's an azzhole. But, he is my boss........By the way, I own my own company.......LOL

  8. #8
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    gentlemen, I wouldnt get too worked up over this. I mean look at the intent, its a pathetic last resort effort to give legitimacy to his distane for this country, discreadit the United States and insult all who live within. As was already said, this post reflects crimes inflicted many genorations before, and should have no reflection on Americans today, or of current political ethics.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMondodondo
    My dad had Mohawk blood! But I'm Jewish. I got some Irish in there somewhere too.

    Bottom Line..............................I'm AMERICAN and PROUD. No culture or country has ever been without fault. But, dammit I still feel we are the most free and compassionate country that has ever been. Do we make mistakes? YES. We needed to have Pearl Harbor bombed before we would enter WWII. We were intensely nationalistic at the time. Funny thing is.....why did 3 Aircraft carriers leave Pearl un -escorted 3 day before the bombing??????? Roosevelt needed something to appease the people and government before he could commit troops. Don't believe me? Check it out. My great Uncle who is still alive was there. he lost most of his leg on Gudalcanal. He would spit in anyones face that disrespected the flag the country or the commander in chief. Again we are not perfect but we are the best game in town. WE ELECTED OUR PRESIDENT. It is time to put petty differences aside and stand united. Maybe something good could come from it................I don't agree with GW on everything, but I don't agree with my boss either, and he's an azzhole. But, he is my boss........By the way, I own my own company.......LOL
    Finally......somebody has the guts to tell it like it is......everybody talks about the "unprovoked attack" on pearl that came without warning. .....what I'm trying to say is don't believe the dickheads like Roosevelt, Kennedy, and GW who care not for the people of the US.....but for their own agenda. GW.....if he was a true patriot like he claims WOULD HAVE SERVED in vietnam instead of going awol in the guard.......Dick Cheney if he was a patriot.....WOULD HAVE SERVED instead of riding the deferrment.........but now that their butts aren't on the line they'll offer up our youth for what WAS NOT AN IMMINENT THREAT.....but about what?? installing a democracy???......if YOUR son (CYCLEON)had died installing a democracy.....what would you think??.....is nation building defending the country??? I'll fight for this land......but I'm not going to send myself or my son to the grave for a political experiment......or for record oil company profits

  10. #10
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    gentlemen, I wouldnt get too worked up over this. I mean look at the intent, its a pathetic last resort effort to give legitimacy to his distane for this country, discreadit the United States and insult all who live within. As was already said, this post reflects crimes inflicted many genorations before, and should have no reflection on Americans today, or of current political ethics.
    Like people are so much different today??......you are naive

  11. #11
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    it's very simple then Badger, send your son to Canada if it gets to that.

  12. #12
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    gentlemen, I wouldnt get too worked up over this. I mean look at the intent, its a pathetic last resort effort to give legitimacy to his distane for this country, discreadit the United States and insult all who live within. As was already said, this post reflects crimes inflicted many genorations before, and should have no reflection on Americans today, or of current political ethics.
    and the word is "disdain"......mr. rocket scientist......

  13. #13
    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    Well thats the first I have actually heard that you would be willing to fight for your homeland

    Look if you are just a John Birch Society type who is into paranoid conspiracy theories - I can respect that - even tho I find most of them take threads of truth and create an extasy of bondage - but most love their country - hate their government (dem or Rep)...but love their country.

    I still havent figured out if you are just one of those deluded people or just a pathetic america hater, who loathes ones own

    and I do have family who is over there - and I support them

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLEON
    Before you get so self righteous boy - my family who has been here for more than 400 years - and I also have Cherokee blood
    Same here and well said and if there is any doubt that the Cherokee nation suffered should read the history of the Trail Of Tears you'll learn something I promise ya.

  15. #15
    Will Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    and the word is "disdain"......mr. rocket scientist......
    Thats the best you got?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Power
    Thats the best you got?
    Just don't try to over do it with your vocabulary......

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Just don't try to over do it with your vocabulary......

    Your Mommy didnt have a problem with it

    When the only reply you have to a statement is to criticise spelling mistakes, I would guess you have nothing left to say. The recource of a weak mind.
    Last edited by Will Power; 03-08-2005 at 10:29 PM.

  18. #18
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    recourse.......

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    ROFL

    TV sucks compared to this.....

    This is the best reality show going..........

  20. #20
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMondodondo
    ROFL

    TV sucks compared to this.....

    This is the best reality show going..........
    ****......you're right......I get started watching a show with the wife.....and I just migrate over to the computer.......sick and wrong.....

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    2 true.

    She thinks the only time I'm not on here is when I wanna get laid!

    Now would I be that crass................

    OK BUSTED.......lol

  22. #22
    Badgerman's Avatar
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    On the balance......pussy-forum......pussy-forum........hmmmm

    Reminds me of Monty Python weighing the witch and the duck

  23. #23
    Pale Horse's Avatar
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    I still think, Modo , Badger and I would make a hilarious trio

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I still think, Modo , Badger and I would make a hilarious trio
    Are we loosing you to the dark side?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I am a parrot on this one...........CYCLEON well put my friend. The Indians had as much to do with their own demise as the "white man". My great, great grandmother was Cree or something, I'll have to ask my dad. The vision of an Indian standing on the side of the road looking at trash and crying is sh*t. They raped this land like everyone else, overcut trees, were on their way to causing extinction of the buffalo with the "white man", and didn't sit around hugging plant life and mammals.

    They used our troops against each other to try to gain power but it backfired, they played the game and they lost, period.
    i have to disagree for the most part. most indian cultures and tribes respected the land. they looked at it like their own mother. yeah they cut trees and killed buffalo but only enough to survive and maybe some bartering. the white man took that to a whole different level. killing much more than needed thats why the value of buffalo hide and meat plummeted back then. it had saturated the system. aka greed! which the white man is notorious for. kind of like today with oil. we use so so so much more than we really need.. for the record i know where you are coming from though.

  26. #26
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    There are opinions that the buffalo would have been wiped out by the Indians as well. I would say they respected the land for what it had to offer them for survival, but there was no Green Peace undercurrent there. Take a look at the southwest, the Indians overcut trees so badly they contributed to current conditions there. In addition there are studies done on Indians in the Midwest that show that they cut so many trees that entire cities disappeared for lack of wood, they were forced to move on .

  27. #27
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    Will I will be the LIGHT in shining armor in our trio!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    Will I will be the LIGHT in shining armor in our trio!
    Bro, your Avatars are getting so dark that I would be afraid I'd be sacrificed or something.

    Will Power..... Your not losing us,,,,you can come and visit when we have badger tied up in the basement

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    There are opinions that the buffalo would have been wiped out by the Indians as well. I would say they respected the land for what it had to offer them for survival, but there was no Green Peace undercurrent there. Take a look at the southwest, the Indians overcut trees so badly they contributed to current conditions there. In addition there are studies done on Indians in the Midwest that show that they cut so many trees that entire cities disappeared for lack of wood, they were forced to move on .
    ok saying that is true why did the cut them down to begin with?? paper, homes, crops?? also i said most not all indians

  30. #30
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    for firewood mostly.............I hate you so much it hurts bro...........I dreamt about hating you last nite, oh crap I'm gonna hate cry again. SORRY!

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    Lol!!!!!

  32. #32
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    See Mondo, you are the humor, Badger is the emotional wreck, I am the loose cannon, excellent trio I think!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMondodondo
    Bro, your Avatars are getting so dark that I would be afraid I'd be sacrificed or something.

    Will Power..... Your not losing us,,,,you can come and visit when we have badger tied up in the basement

    HEHE......1vic will be all dressed up like a gothic dude.......rips out our hearts and holds em up beating........1vic temple of doom....
    then off to the regular job

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    for firewood mostly.............I hate you so much it hurts bro...........I dreamt about hating you last nite, oh crap I'm gonna hate cry again. SORRY!
    really? i dreamt about shaking your hand and patting you on the back.. call you buddy and then turn you around a shove my foot in your asss! hahahaha but i guess that door can swing both ways.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    for firewood mostly.............I hate you so much it hurts bro...........I dreamt about hating you last nite, oh crap I'm gonna hate cry again. SORRY!

    to resond to the firewood theory. do you blame them atleast they used it for survival and not to make a profit. thats the difference between survival and GREED!

  36. #36
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    No man we are the haters that's how we show love by hating.....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    See Mondo, you are the humor, Badger is the emotional wreck, I am the loose cannon, excellent trio I think!
    Emotional wreck???!!!! I'm in a GREAT mood today.......I like everything......even willpower.......even my wife's cooking......

  38. #38
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    survival is profitable isn't it?

  39. #39
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    See ............lack of consistancy Badger, you are a basket case!

  40. #40
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    Thought for today.....inspired by a decent president

    Most of life's problem can be solved with good oral sex.....

    No Mondo.....I'm not givin' you head......talk to Tock

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