Thread: question about quran
04-02-2005, 04:05 PM #1
question about quran
is there somewhere you can see the original script on sheep skin and such??
04-02-2005, 09:02 PM #2
04-02-2005, 09:07 PM #3
max look at my post about the preservation of the Quran in books post its mentioned in there , thx !
04-03-2005, 08:43 AM #4
- The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.
- Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
- The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
- Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
- Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.
- During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE) Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
- Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
- Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
- During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE) Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
- Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
- Three stages of dotting and diacritization, Dots were put as syntactical marks by Abu Al-Aswad Al Doaly, during the time of Mu'awiya Ibn Abi Sufian (661-680 CE).
- The letters were marked with different dotting by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy ibn Ya'amor, during the time of Abd Al-Malek Ibn Marawan (685-705 CE).
- A complete system of diacritical marks (damma, fataha, kasra) was invented by Al Khaleel Ibn Ahmad Al Faraheedy (d. 786 CE).
Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 04-03-2005 at 09:07 AM.
04-03-2005, 09:07 AM #5
I know there is a hadith that says the original copy of the Quran is in heaven. I cant find it.
04-03-2005, 09:30 AM #6
so muhammad was told the quran by angel. then for 100s of years, it was passed down only by memorization. until finally 100's of years later it was written down. muslims dont possess that first copy written down because well, it was taken to heaven. what is the oldest copy you do have?
this has as many flaws (more if you ask me but that i guess is biased) than what you guys say about the bible being in 3 languages. at least we do have things that have backed up our bible in 3 languages (ie red sea scrolls).
04-03-2005, 10:39 AM #7Originally Posted by max2extreme
The first copy wasnt taken to heaven, you misunderstood my point. The Quran is perserved in Heaven the original copy.
But the Original copy that was sent to man is still here today. It can be seen in the Blue Mosque in Turkey.
Jesus's (PBUH) word's werent written down when he said them. Infact even Christians will say the Bible was written way after the death of Jesus (PBUH).
And if you look at the major contradictions, that cannot be refuted, it has to be the work of man that has corrupted it, not GOD.
04-03-2005, 04:49 PM #8
still yet to hear those major contradictions. so there was one scribed copy at the very exact point of when muhammad was told it. and it was sent to heaven. and they made no copies of it?
04-04-2005, 04:56 AM #9Originally Posted by max2extreme
Chapter 43: (Az-Zukhruf - Gold)
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1. Beneficent God!
2. By the Book that makes manifest!
3. Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.
4. And it is in the Original of the Book with Us, truly elevated, full of wisdom.
5. Shall We then turn away the Reminder from you altogether because you are a prodigal people?
6. And how many a prophet did We send among the ancients!
7. And no prophet came to them but they mocked him.
8. Then We destroyed those stronger than these in prowess, and the example of the ancients has gone before.
04-04-2005, 05:01 AM #10Originally Posted by max2extreme
Utthman a few years later, collected it into one single Book (Mushaff). Qur'an is really a descripion of the contents - the message, but the book itself is called a Mushaff. HE later made 6 or 7 copies of that single Mushaff and had them sent out to differnt parts of the world.
As it is known, there were only six copies of the Quran. Three of them are kept in Cairo, two - in Istanbul, but of those three which used to be kept in Maverranakhr one is kept in the library of the Spiritual Board of Muslims of Uzbekistan.
Currently, there are three copies among them exist: Istanbul, Uzbekistan and Cairo.
Here's a picture of the one in Uzbekistan.
04-04-2005, 05:10 AM #11
As I have said, there are millions of people in the world that have memorized the Quran by heart. My cousin who lives in Jordan read the whole Quran in Arabic, when he was 5 years old.
My uncle who doesnt speak Arabic, memorized the Quran, word for word. By heart. So if the Imam at the mosque makes a mistake, he corrects them while in prayer.
Surah 15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Quran is easily memorizable, if you listen to the Quran in Arabic, its poetry.
04-04-2005, 05:42 AM #12Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
04-04-2005, 05:42 AM #13
max can u explain why the catholics have more books than the protestants , and which one of the 2 are the real followers of christ ?
04-04-2005, 09:02 AM #14
check out the other active threads, i just posted there. i think its under the one about jesus being in the line of David.
04-04-2005, 09:04 AM #15
the basic answer is that they are considered 'uninspired', not the words of God.
04-04-2005, 09:09 AM #16
here, copied from my post so you didnt have to find it....
no, christians dont believe in the Apocrypha because it is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by various individuals.
Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
04-05-2005, 05:51 AM #17Originally Posted by max2extreme
04-05-2005, 06:48 AM #18
well, i guess if you want to put it that way. I have no knowledge on what the specifics were that led the "higher ups" to not include the apochrypha, just general reasons. I know you are going to say something to the effect that "well that is why the quran is from God, untouched, unchanged, none of it written by man" and Ill say prove muhammad actually recieved the bible thru an angel from God. Prove that the writers of the quran as muhammad recited it, copied it word for word since muhammad couldnt write. I say the bible is God's word and it is JUST how God wanted it, without the apocrypha because of what is taught in it. You're gonna say "proove it". And there is no way I can. just as there is no way you can proove the quran was given by God. faith
04-05-2005, 07:37 PM #19
A few years later, I started to ponder deeply on the Qur’an. Using the works of other translators, as well as the Tafsirs (explanation), I read and re-read the Holy Scripture--several times to make sure that what they translated and explained were absolutely correct. The more I learned about the Qur’an the more I became distraught, disturbed and angry—angry, because I felt that I was utterly let down by a killer religion which was imposed on me due to my birth. The stuff I read in the Qur’an jolted me so much that I wanted to find the answer to my perennial question—‘Who really authored the Qur’an?’ It took me a long time and many years of painstaking work to arrive at the answer to that question. This article tries to answer that question. I had been planning this essay for a long time, and now, after writing it I feel it is for you to ponder too—‘Who authored the Qur’an?’
During my investigative phase I found that a lot of people were involved in the compilation and the construction of the Qur’an. Unknown to the vast majority of Muslims, and buried deep inside the Qur’an, Ahadith and Sirah there are copious evidence to reject, out of hand, the contention that the Qur’an is the creation of Allah. Making Allah the author of the Quran, I think, is the prime lie perpetrated on mankind for more than a millennium. We can, with certainty, say that it was not even Muhammad alone who authored the Qur’an. In fact, the major part of the Qur’an was either composed by or inspired and written by a few other individuals. The most notable among them were:
Imrul Qays—an ancient poet of Arabia who died a few decades before Muhammad’s birth
Zayd b. Amr b. Naufal—an ‘apostate’ of his time who preached and propagated Hanifism
Hasan b. Thabit—the official poet of Muhammad
Salman, the Persian—Muhammad’s confidante’ and an advisor
Bahira—a Nestoraian Christian monk of the Syrian church
Jabr—a Christian neighbour of Muhammad
Ibn Qumta—a Christian slave
Khadijah—Muhammad’s first wife
Waraqa—Khadijah’s cousin brother
Ubay b. Ka’b—Muhammad’s secretary and a Qur’an scribe
This was a interesting article.
04-05-2005, 07:38 PM #20
04-05-2005, 07:53 PM #21
A Rabbi of the Talmud thought the Christian Testament was a jokebook written by a much earlier Rabbi; it was so absurd, that he couldn't believe anyone thought it was serious.
So speculation doesnt mean anything.
04-05-2005, 07:59 PM #22
The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was illiterate. Here is the story of the first revelation, and when he first meets the angel Gabriel.
Angel Gabriel appeared to him and said:
But as Mohammed was illiterate, having never recieved any formal education in reading or writing, he said to the Angel:
"I am not a reader"
The angel took hold of him and squeezed him as much as he could bear and then said again:
Mohammed replied "I am not a reader"
The angel again siezed him and said:
Surah 96.Al-Alaq (The Clot), verse 3, 4 and 5
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-Taught man that which he knew not.
Then the Prophet repeated the words with a trembling heart. He returned to Khadijah from Mount Hira and said: "Wrap me up! Wrap me up!"
She wrapped him in a garment until his fear was dispelled. He told Khadijah what had occurred and that he was becoming either a soothsayer or one smitten with madness.
04-05-2005, 08:00 PM #23Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
Have you read the rest of the article
04-05-2005, 08:14 PM #24Originally Posted by books555
Calling it speculation would be an honor, the opening statements shows the authors dislike for Islam.
I know the Quran to be the word of GOD, and is perfect, and there are no contradictions and no errors at all.
If any of those people were authors, they would surely have power in the early stages of Islam or the later stages, but these people are not reconizable in Islamic history and not important.
If they authored the Quran they would want power and recognition atleast, or alteast be disciples of Muhammed (PBUH), but they werent.
04-05-2005, 08:16 PM #25
For example Abul Kasem writes:
The first Hadis tells us something about Muhammad’s paganism—that, in the beginning, he probably ate the meat offered to the idols by the pagans (thus confirming Hisham ibn al-Kalbi), but Zayd b. Amr steadfastly refused to eat any meat slaughtered in the name of idols. Muhammad learned from Zayd not to eat the pagans’ meat (or Haram meat). The second Hadis apparently contradicts the first Hadis (7.67.407) on Muhammad’s consumption of ‘pagan’ or Haram meat. However, a little thought on this Hadis evidently shows that Muhammad followed Zayd with respect to Halal meat, and from Zayd he also obtained the idea of Allah to be his (Muhammad’s) God. Can we not, therefore, conclude that the idea of Islam really came from Zayd? In the biography of Muhammad written by Ibn Ishaq (Ibn Ishaq, pp.100-102) we find several verses of poetry written by Zayd that are quite similar to some verses of the Qur’an. Therefore, isn’t it sufficient to say that after the sudden, mysterious and untimely killing of Zayd Muhammad took up his mantle, philosophy, poetry and the zeal to propagate ‘Hanifism’? [For sample verses from Zayd’s poetry and their comparisons with the Qur’anic verses please read the appendix]
04-05-2005, 08:23 PM #26
I am going to play video games, be back later for the answer.
04-06-2005, 07:06 AM #27
i wonder why allah didnt just make his #1 servant literate.
04-06-2005, 08:20 AM #28Originally Posted by max2extreme
04-06-2005, 08:36 AM #29
not to me. i would feel making a known illiterate man, literate would be much more of a miracle, than some guy saying that god spoke to him. just as jesus made the blind see, etc.
04-06-2005, 08:43 AM #30Originally Posted by books555
And as regards the question of eating of the meal, the correct and reliable report given by Bukhari says that once Zayd ibn 'Amr ibn Nufayl happened to meet the Prophet before his call to Prophethood, at Baldah (near Makka), when such a meal was presented to the Prophet. He refused to partake of it; so did Zayd ibn 'Amr, adding: "I do not eat what you people slaughter on the altars, etc."
 Bukhârî, no. 3826.
Obviously this expression of Zayd's, which was a sequel to the Prophet's earlier refusal to partake of the meal and which Zayd made when he was in turn offered the meal, has been mixed up by some of the narrators and made to appear as though he was the person who first declined to eat of the meal.
 See for comments on this report Fath al-Barî, VII, third impression, pp. 176-178 and IX., pp. 630-631
On the other hand one version of the report in Bukhari, which is unquestionably the more reliable, categorically states that the Prophet was the first person to decline the meal.
04-06-2005, 08:47 AM #31Originally Posted by max2extreme
If the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) had "made" up the Quran, he could have also wrote that he did stuff like make the blind see, make the handicap walk.
Well it seems like the miracle worked. GOD knows best.
04-06-2005, 08:49 AM #32
no he couldnt make up stuff that he made the blind see or make the handicap walk because he would have no followers would he? Because he would be considered a crazed lunatic because there were no witnesses.
04-06-2005, 08:51 AM #33Originally Posted by max2extreme
04-06-2005, 09:16 AM #34
exactly, which is why muhammed didnt write that he did any miracles, because that army of writers would know he didnt and it would leak out.
04-06-2005, 09:19 AM #35Originally Posted by max2extreme
The army of writers could have also "leaked" out that they wrote the Quran, and not GOD through the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) but nothing of that sort happened.
And none of those people alleged had power during Prophet Muhammed's (PBUH) life. There werent the Prophet's companions.
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