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  1. #1
    books555's Avatar
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    Christianity has a most logical response for evil, suffer and hell

    -The Oxford professor C.S. Lewis wrote that, without God in the picture, you cannot distinguish art from garbage. My faith actually informs me about the world of art, politics, ecology, etc.


    -This is where the Christian faith explains reality for me. Hell is the outworking of evil, and the terminus for evil. In other words, evil exists here and now, and it must go somewhere some day. On the other hand, if I didn't believe in hell, I couldn't label anything morally repugnant or unfair. Hell must exist for there to also be good in the universe. If there are good things today (for example, the legacy of Mother Teresa), then I am conceding there is also evil. Where did it come from—and where is evil going? The existence of hell offers an explanation.


    God made everything perfect.
    One of the perfect things God made was free creatures.
    Free will is the cause of evil.
    Hence, imperfection can arise from the perfect.
    (not directly, but indirectly, through freedom)

  2. #2
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    Wrong.......G-d is the causation of all things......There is no room for evil if G-d becomes all in all. Therefore G-d will put an end to evil through purification......

    You just can not deal with G-d causing evil.......even though He says it explicitly in the Bible......that's because there is time involved in the relationship of G-d to man.

  3. #3
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    -Evil cannot be destroyed without destroying freedom.
    Love is the greatest good for free creatures.
    But love is impossible without freedom.
    So, to destroy freedom would not be the greatest good.


    -During World War II, Corrie Ten Boom was a prisoner in a concentration camp. She noted that—without the prisoners being free—the guards could get whatever they wanted from them, such as obedience, etc. But the guards could not get one thing from the incarcerated. They could not get love. Love demands freedom. Love is unforced.

    --God does desire all people to go to heaven (II Peter 3:9).
    But God cannot force anyone to love him.
    (Forced love is a contradiction)
    Therefore, all who go to hell choose to go there.


    -God does desire all people to go to heaven (II Peter 3:9).
    But God cannot force anyone to love him.
    (Forced love is a contradiction)
    Therefore, all who go to hell choose to go there.


    -Pain can be a friend—warning us of greater evil.
    (The pain in your arm can forewarn of an impending heart attack.)
    Pain can keep us from self–destruction.
    (Lepers feel no pain and eventually (unintentionally) destroy themselves.)
    Pain can help to bring about greater good.
    (The heartache of a bad marriage can help to renew it.)

    -It is not having one person in hell that makes the notion of hell to be evil. It is one more person than really wants to be there that makes it evil. A world with some hell in it may not be the best world conceivable … but it may be the best world achievable (since we are free creatures).

    And finally,

    -Evil will yet be defeated.
    If God is all–powerful, he can defeat evil.
    If God is all–loving, he will defeat evil.
    Evil is not yet destroyed.
    Therefore, evil will one day be defeated.




    The Christian has a very powerful response to these questions. Remember, all world views must answer these four questions: THE QUESTION OF MEANING, MORALITY, SALVATION, AND DESTINY.

    This infromation was taken from a artlicle by Mike Metzger

  4. #4
    books555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Wrong.......G-d is the causation of all things......There is no room for evil if G-d becomes all in all. Therefore G-d will put an end to evil through purification......

    You just can not deal with G-d causing evil.......even though He says it explicitly in the Bible......that's because there is time involved in the relationship of G-d to man.

    Badgerman, No disrespect, but I dont think you have a good understanding about the statements that you are claiming.

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    As far as which ones??

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    Isa 45:7

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

    What's there to question?

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    included in god's plan are all things (eph 1:11) though the responsibility for committing sin rests on the creature, not the creator.

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    redwizza is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    -The Oxford professor C.S. Lewis wrote that, without God in the picture, you cannot distinguish art from garbage. My faith actually informs me about the world of art, politics, ecology, etc.


    -This is where the Christian faith explains reality for me. Hell is the outworking of evil, and the terminus for evil. In other words, evil exists here and now, and it must go somewhere some day. On the other hand, if I didn't believe in hell, I couldn't label anything morally repugnant or unfair. Hell must exist for there to also be good in the universe. If there are good things today (for example, the legacy of Mother Teresa), then I am conceding there is also evil. Where did it come from—and where is evil going? The existence of hell offers an explanation.


    God made everything perfect.
    One of the perfect things God made was free creatures.
    Free will is the cause of evil.
    Hence, imperfection can arise from the perfect.
    (not directly, but indirectly, through freedom)
    very wrong. there is something known as NATURAL morality. for example. i dont need a god or hell to tell me that killing a human being is WRONG....or immoral.
    there is no such thing as free creatures....or free will. free choice is still bound by nature/human confinement. so, even if i can choose a way of life, it does not mean that i will be able to live and experience that life because i could be bound by physical...chemical....economic...and political limitation.....some natural and some human-made limitation.

    once again book555 is wrong and is very hopefull that his religion makes SOME sence to him and ppl, coz he needs to be assured that his faith is right.....in other words, he has doubts

  9. #9
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    i know what u r trying to make a point of and i agree we all as humans instinctively know whats wrong and whats right , its part of our natural state , or u can say its programmed into us whether we deny it or accept it its there !

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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    God made everything perfect.
    One of the perfect things God made was free creatures.
    Free will is the cause of evil.
    Hence, imperfection can arise from the perfect.
    (not directly, but indirectly, through freedom)
    I really like that a lot!

  11. #11
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    right and wrong doesnt need a god. Right and wrong cant even be defined its different in everyones mind. Whats right to me might be wrong to you.

    also looking at how art is nowdays I cant distinguish it from garbage

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    "Right" and "Wrong" can be determined by choosing whichever course of action serves one's own best long-term interests.

    Murder? Well, sure, no one wants to be murdered, so social groups agree not to kill anyone, and enforce rules that discourage anyone from killing. Thus, murder becomes "wrong." Not in a particular moral way; it's just something that society has agreed upon.
    Sometimes murder has been embraced by society, as with some religious group's practice of human sacrifice. They may have generalized murder as being "wrong" but when it was performed in front of thousands of witnesses in an attempt to satisfy the gods, it was "good."
    Go figure.

    Is gluttony "right" or "wrong?" Well, there aren't any rules against it, but it clearly holds long-term adverse health effects, so I'm not a glutton. But look around, you'll find lots of gluttons around; are they exhibiting a lapse of morality?

  13. #13
    YouCanDoIt is offline Junior Member
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    Christianity is UNBASED. there is not an ounce of proof to the existance of a higher being of any sort. Christianity is the worst, most perverted and sinister religions out there.

  14. #14
    nsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    Christianity is UNBASED. there is not an ounce of proof to the existance of a higher being of any sort. Christianity is the worst, most perverted and sinister religions out there.
    There is no evidence of a higher being, yes. That is why Faith is an essential pillar in the foundation of Christianity. How do you figure it is the worst, perverse and/or sinister?

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    YouCanDoIt is offline Junior Member
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    Due to the fact that all it is about is social control of the masses by a minority social/economic elite!
    and us dumb fukks that have (blind) faith, keep hypnotising ourselves and each other into following whatever "guidelines' religion gives us without questioning, 'cause quiestioning is "bad"...."let's not question let's rally around the bible/flag"....

    Like I said before, a mentality for a heard of sheep.

    Is that not perverse/sinister?

  16. #16
    nsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    Due to the fact that all it is about is social control of the masses by a minority social/economic elite!
    and us dumb fukks that have (blind) faith, keep hypnotising ourselves and each other into following whatever "guidelines' religion gives us without questioning, 'cause quiestioning is "bad"...."let's not question let's rally around the bible/flag"....

    Like I said before, a mentality for a heard of sheep.

    Is that not perverse/sinister?
    WTF are you talking about? Thats not Christianity. Thats the upper class controlling the rest of the world, which has nothing to do with any religion. And there is nothing wrong with questioning. Christianity is about having faith in God and having good will towards others. Your issue is with governments not Christianity...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Wrong.......G-d is the causation of all things......There is no room for evil if G-d becomes all in all. Therefore G-d will put an end to evil through purification......

    You just can not deal with G-d causing evil.......even though He says it explicitly in the Bible......that's because there is time involved in the relationship of G-d to man.
    where does it explitly say god caused evil?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwizza
    very wrong. there is something known as NATURAL morality. for example. i dont need a god or hell to tell me that killing a human being is WRONG....or immoral.
    there is no such thing as free creatures....or free will. free choice is still bound by nature/human confinement. so, even if i can choose a way of life, it does not mean that i will be able to live and experience that life because i could be bound by physical...chemical....economic...and political limitation.....some natural and some human-made limitation.

    once again book555 is wrong and is very hopefull that his religion makes SOME sence to him and ppl, coz he needs to be assured that his faith is right.....in other words, he has doubts
    how do we know that natural morality isnt really the spirit of god telling everyone that killing a human being is immoral??

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    Christianity is UNBASED. there is not an ounce of proof to the existance of a higher being of any sort. Christianity is the worst, most perverted and sinister religions out there.
    what, i gave you one thing that was actual fact found in the bible, you curse it and move to another thread and try to say the same thing?? come on. like nsa said, there is no hard proof of a higher being, but christianity is not a religion based on blind faith or "unbased" as you say. saying that truly shows your ignorance on the subject and makes everything you say pointless to read. thats not a flame. not an attack. just a truth.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    Due to the fact that all it is about is social control of the masses by a minority social/economic elite!
    is this your "blind faith" or do you have any proof to support your thoughts??

  21. #21
    nsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    is this your "blind faith" or do you have any proof to support your thoughts??
    That has nothing to do with Christianity anyway...

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    no it doesnt. and we know that. but to those who are ignorant use statements that they think are legit and try to use them against religion/christianity. i try to set them straight on true beliefs by challenging those beliefs. He said christianity is a blind-faith religion. I gave him an example of something that was tangible. He made the above statement about controlling the masses. I asked if that was his "blind faith" or if he had anything tangible. Not everything in christianity is tangible. but it seems that a lot of people think there is nothing that points to the fact of the christian god, of jesus, of his being the messiah, etc. when that is not true, there are things that lead to these being fact.

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    YouCanDoIt is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    what, i gave you one thing that was actual fact found in the bible, you curse it and move to another thread and try to say the same thing?? come on. like nsa said, there is no hard proof of a higher being, but christianity is not a religion based on blind faith or "unbased" as you say. saying that truly shows your ignorance on the subject and makes everything you say pointless to read. thats not a flame. not an attack. just a truth.
    How is that truth? first of all, there is no FACT in the bible. It is FICTION, or at best, a book of fairy tales. There's not historical evidence (substantial evidence) to existence of concepts described in that piece of pulp fiction. yeah, romans and jews existed, but the rest is just someone's imagination.

    you are trying to engage me in a moral discussion, trying to get me to admit there's good and bad, black and white with no grey...it is a tactic familiar to me. I might be quick to judge concepts, but believe me I stand for what I believe in.

  24. #24
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    im not trying to engage you in a moral discussion. thats books' dept. heh.

    if its a book of fairy tails, and there are no facts in the bible, then what of the biblical archaeological finds?? sounds to me that you stand for what you believe in without having knowledge of both sides.

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    YouCanDoIt is offline Junior Member
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    none of the archeological finds have had much substantial link to people or events described in the bible.
    That's people/events.
    I'm not even mentioning any magic tricks jesus is claimed to have done.

    Even if jc existed as a jewish carpenter (quite possible, and not blond-haired blue-eyed, as a nazi-poster boy he is described to be), there is NO evidence for the existence of religious/spiritual/supernatural aspect described in the bible. NONE.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    none of the archeological finds have had much substantial link to people or events described in the bible.
    in 1993 a stone monument fragment was discovered at tel dan, near the border of israel and syria, that mentions king david and the "house of david" along with words implying a victory by the king of damascus, beh-hadad, who "conquered ijon, dan, abel beth maacah". (1 Kings 15:20)

    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    That's people/events.
    I'm not even mentioning any magic tricks jesus is claimed to have done.

    Even if jc existed as a jewish carpenter (quite possible, and not blond-haired blue-eyed, as a nazi-poster boy he is described to be), there is NO evidence for the existence of religious/spiritual/supernatural aspect described in the bible. NONE.
    how the media portrays jesus has nothing to do with this conversation does it?? and there is evidence of the existence of a religious aspect to jesus as described in the bible. Non-biblical/non-christian writers have even written of the religious/spiritual/supernatural aspect described in the bible. not only that, i find it insane that there are over 5000 ancient new testament copies available for analysis today, vs only a handful of other books that we take for granted as history, such as julius caesar, the gallic wars which we have 10 copies. , 2ndly the nt copies we have were written much closer to the date of the original than ANY other ancient work. example, the oldest extant NT fragment was written within 50 years of the original, compared to,example, 1000 years in the case for the gallic wars. the combination of many more copies to compare for consistency and a shorter time between copies and originals leads to a greater assurance of documentary accuracy. but its all a bunch of fairy tale stories...ok.

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    Yes...Christianity has a very logical reason for Hell:

    The Jews weren't getting much in the way of compensation for all of their suffering in this life, so they fabricated the idea of a Divine Afterlife. They were wronged by many people who never suffered any similar evils like the ones they inflicted on the Jews..hence, to quell their people's agitation, the idea of Hell was fabricated.
    It was good marketing and Christianity followed suit. Hence, thats a logical response for Hell, etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by YouCanDoIt
    Christianity is UNBASED. there is not an ounce of proof to the existance of a higher being of any sort. Christianity is the worst, most perverted and sinister religions out there.
    Neitzche said the same thing...but not for the reasons you've cited, which I consider sort of spurious.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    in 1993 a stone monument fragment was discovered at tel dan, near the border of israel and syria, that mentions king david and the "house of david" along with words implying a victory by the king of damascus, beh-hadad, who "conquered ijon, dan, abel beth maacah". (1 Kings 15:20)
    What fragment is that? Got any references?
    -Tock

  30. #30
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    heres a couple...

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/443

    http://www.jewishmag.com/59mag/dan/dan.htm


    In the square of the Israelite gatehouse an inscription belonging to a large basalt slab was found in 1993, making international headlines. It is unique for several reasons: because it is very old; dating to the 9th century BCE, and because it’s the very first time that the house of David is mentioned in a text outside the Bible.

    The fragment formed part of the victory stele of king Hazael of Aram (Syria) and is written in Aramaic. It is the only monumental inscription that has been found in Israel so far; apparently the kings of Israel and Judah did not make victory monuments of their own.

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