04-11-2005, 08:45 AM #1Senior Member
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What do these two mean?
2. Thou shall not make any graven images.
10. Thou shall not covet.
04-11-2005, 08:53 AM #2Originally Posted by BUBBA74
FOR #2 that means dont make images of Gods and worship them or any idols or of the such , even some people these days make images and statues of prophets and pray towards them asking them for help , this is not right !
FOR# 3 LITERAL MEANING OF covet is , To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's ) SO u can pretty much understand what this one means ...... i think a big hint here is towards men who start hitting on others wifes , its morally and humanly worng in the eyes of God ........... also u cna understand some people feel enveous of others richness and whatever desiring to have what they have , that is also under the same umbrella of coveting , because those desires start to take u on the path of doing wrong to achieve things .
if someone else can shed some light please do , these r two very nice commandments indeed !
04-11-2005, 08:54 AM #3Originally Posted by BUBBA74
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6 (Deuteronomy 5:8-10)
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am your God. Leviticus 26:1
I am : that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8
Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which thy God hath forbidden thee. For thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. Deuteronomy 4:15-19,23,24
10. Thou shall not covet.
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'
04-11-2005, 09:05 AM #4Senior Member
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10. Thou shall not covet.
Thats a good one. It has so many applications to our everyday lives.
2. Thou shall not make any graven images.
So is #2 basically saying this is wrong.
04-11-2005, 09:07 AM #5
I disagree Caucasian, we do not worship those, we use them as rememberance of God
04-11-2005, 12:53 PM #6Originally Posted by 1victor
I've always been curious about this. What about statues of saints, and Mary, and others. Unless I'm mistaken Catholics do pray to them.
04-11-2005, 01:05 PM #7
Well I WANTED for a long time to post about it!
This is something I really hate when I go into a church, all the images, sculptures, graving, everything. "Thou shall not make any graven images" Sorry but get into a Church and what do you see? Blasphemy allover the place! I feel bad when Im in a church even to a point I get mad!
We see a cross with Jesus in the Middle, the virgin Mary, Joseph, images of the last meals, who are we worshipping? Jesus or God, in front of whom do we knee? The cross and Jesus! How many people go in front of Mary, or Joseph and pray to them like they are some type of Gods.
Rememberance, that I do agree, but to an extend. I went to some churchs where I thought I was in a museum of Jesus. It is pure hyprocrisy!
I am more comfortable with church with no painting, benches, an altar and a simple cross, feel like the house of God, not the house of the million idols.
04-11-2005, 01:08 PM #8Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
Having never read these passages, they indicate to me that any artistic manifestation whatsoever is prohibited.
Greek Orthodox actually emphasize idols.
Last edited by inheritmylife; 04-11-2005 at 01:11 PM.
04-11-2005, 01:12 PM #9
Hell yeah Orthodox church is like getting into a Jewelry LOL
04-11-2005, 01:17 PM #10Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
I've actually had the pleasure of seeing a few of the cathedrals in Turkey.
They are ornate and beautiful.
04-11-2005, 01:19 PM #11
The commandment to not worship idols is something I can follow with no troubles at all....I'll bow to nothing but our Lord God.
The one concerning covent though is one I struggle with.....I find myself wanting things others have but the good thing is I can pray for redeption for that matter.
The one commandment I think more people would do best to follow is to not judge....man would thins planet be better off if that were to happen.
04-11-2005, 01:30 PM #12
there is a big debate on this in earlier threads as well if you would like to read about them. The jist is that christians take the graven image/idol commandment as do not make such things idols, hence do not worship them. it is ok to have items of remembrance such as crosses, pictures of heavenly things, etc, as long as you do not worship them, but only the lord. even if you are kneeling under a cross and praying to god, this is ok because you are praying TO GOD. If you were kneeling under a cross and praying to the cross, then that is wrong. Muslims definition is different though because in islam, it is 'unholy' for lack of better word? a sin? to have a picture or representation of anything heavenly.
04-11-2005, 01:32 PM #13Originally Posted by singern
04-11-2005, 01:36 PM #14
as for coveting. dont confuse this. its saying do not desire things that other people have because they have them. its NOT saying that if i have 10 acres of yard, and my neighbor has 10 acres of yard. He has a quick riding lawn mower and i have a push mower. I could want this riding lawn mower because it would lessen my workload by about 100x. that would be fine to want a lawn mower like my neighbors and save and get one. thats not covetting.
04-11-2005, 01:40 PM #15
04-11-2005, 04:21 PM #16Originally Posted by max2extreme
04-11-2005, 05:07 PM #17Originally Posted by max2extreme
another example is when we pray inside a mosque we are not allowed to wear clothes with animal or human faces or pictures of the kind on them , its just completely forbidden or Makrooh (not good) ............ for us if we wanna remember god all we gotta do is look into our heart and hes right there !
04-11-2005, 06:26 PM #18Originally Posted by BUBBA74
Most folks in this day and age interpret it as meaning only idols.
Personally, IMHO, I think the orthodox Jews are following the traditional interpretation, the way things were done for thousands of years, so if precedent holds any sway, they have the moral high ground on this issue. But as times change, so does biblical interpretation. Just as we don't burn witches anymore, we don't disdain graven images. One of these days, Christians won't get their panties up in a wad over homosexuality, and the day may come when a pope issues a statement reversing its opposition to abortion.
It's just a matter of time . . .
04-11-2005, 07:20 PM #19
if you look at the commandment, its all about graven images and putting them before god. thats the whole subject. what is a graven image? an idol. what is an idol? something of worship. what are you not to do? worship anything other than God. Thats it in a nutshell. If some people want to add meaning, then so be it. They wont be punished for it. And neither will I by not adding meaning to it.
04-11-2005, 07:48 PM #20
Graven is taken to mean literally, carved in wood, correct?
04-11-2005, 11:13 PM #21
Lots of images around today are made from a rotograveure (or photograveure) printing process, like just about everything you find in newspapers, books, magazines, checks, packaging, etc. Images on paper money are done with a different engraving technique, I think, and images on coins are definitely made from engravings, as are medals, mass-produced toy animals and figurines, etc. etc. etc.
Max would like to give a liberal interpretation of "Thou shalt make no graven images" so he doesn't have to comply with this particular one of the 10 Commandments, probably because he'd find it to be too inconvenient. Good for him . . . God knows we need more liberal theologians . . .
But if you check with the conservative orthodox Jews, they'll tell ya that engravings (just about all modern images) are not kosher.
But that's the way things are nowadays . . . people are free to interpret the Bible any way that suits their fancy, and by golly, people take advantage of their rights -- some folks allow for graven images, others don't, some allow for women preachers, some don't, some allow for card playing, others don't. Some folks say ya gotta be baptized, others say ya don't. Go figure.
v 1: carve, cut, or etch into a material or surface; "engrave a pen"; "engraved the winner's name onto the trophy cup" [syn: grave, inscribe] 2: impress or affect deeply; "The event engraved itself into her memory" 3: carve, cut, or etch into a block used for printing or print from such a block; "engrave a letter" 4: carve, cut, or etch a design or letters into; "engrave the pen with the owner's name"
en·grav·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-grvng)
The art or technique of one that engraves.
A design or text engraved on a surface.
An engraved surface for printing.
A print made from an engraved plate or block.
Main Entry: pho·to·gra·vure
Etymology: French, from phot- + gravure
: a process for printing from an intaglio plate prepared by photographic methods
04-12-2005, 05:07 AM #22Originally Posted by ZOAIB
I learnt my lesson then.
04-12-2005, 05:15 AM #23
There was a battle in Early Christianity in the Byzantine Empire about this issue.
Most unsophsticated believers tended to revere icons (thus they were called iconodules), but many political and religious leaders wanted to have them smashed because they believed that venerating icons was a form of idolatry (they were called iconoclasts).
After some battles over this issue, by various factions, kings and queens.
The iconodules won, and that is why icons are acceptable today.
There is a long historic tradition behind how it became allowed.
04-12-2005, 05:20 AM #24Originally Posted by max2extreme
And to have a picture or representation of anything heavenly is not acceptable as it says in the Old Testament.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
04-12-2005, 05:22 AM #25
I belive the Amish Christian sect dont even take photos of themselves because it is considered a graven image.
04-12-2005, 05:32 AM #26Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
04-12-2005, 07:42 AM #27
I take literally because of verses like this:
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
"Make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
"[David gave Solomon the plan for the] golden chariot of the cherubim [statues of angels] that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).
"On the [Temple] walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." (Ezekiel 41:17–18)
These are verses spoken by God. Now either the bible is totally contradicting itself here, highly unlikely because im sure someone here would have found a website trying to disprove christianity by this contradiction, or your interpretation of this commandment is wrong.
Now, exodus 20:4 (the commandment in question) uses the hebrew word 'pecel'. this word specifically means an idol: a carved (graven) image. In english, its a carved image used as an idol. The word 'pecel' is used in the bible about 31 times. This word comes from the hebrew word 'pacal' which means: a primitive root; to carve, whether wood or stone. Two different words for 2 different (though similar) meanings.
Information from Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
04-12-2005, 08:07 AM #28Originally Posted by max2extreme
40+ authors would create such contradictions in the word of God !
04-12-2005, 08:16 AM #29
But if you look at it...we have a few authors giving God's word as to make certain items of heaven, etc. then you have a commandment and other verses, using the hebrew word pecel. how does the commandment using the word 'pecel' go against the verses i spoke about? it doesnt. its the interpretation placed in the translation.
04-12-2005, 08:17 AM #30
Max, is conforming to the teaching of this church instead of conforming to the teachings of his religion.
04-12-2005, 08:21 AM #31
how do you see that?
Im following by example. God gave examples of 'decorating' objects with heavenly pictures if you will, so its wrong for me to have them? from all my posts youve read, you honestly believe i do things based on what a church says to do above what the scripture says??
04-12-2005, 04:24 PM #32
The verses you spoke of are not images of God though. A serpent which isnt worshiped
And cherubims which are not worhiped either.
Since No one knows what God or Jesus even looked like why would pictures and symbols be needed to remind you of the things taught when they are not even acurate reminders?
Of couse there is no direct way to prove wether crosses are acceptable but I tend to follow the belief that in Gods eyes it is not acceptable to have a any graven image that reflects God Or Jesus in any way as a reminder and does not need to be done the images are NOT what is important but what they are intending to represent so why even have the image when they are irrelevent and the message is what is intended to be of importance.
04-12-2005, 05:34 PM #33AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
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but he is basing it on the origional language of the scripture - the words used there are clearly referring to an idol - if you do some study on it, it will confirm this
04-12-2005, 07:06 PM #34Originally Posted by Bryan2
The question is, would it be better to have idols or not have idols that people pray to, wheater or not the object is worshipped?
I would say the answer is, it would be better to have no idols.
But for some reason people want to make an excuse to have idols.
No person in the history of the world has worshiped an idol, usually idols are objects that represent the higher being, yet the religions that do this, fall under idolatry.
04-12-2005, 07:49 PM #35Originally Posted by Bryan2
as for your second paragraph, lets say for example, you are about to say something mean to someone. someone just really pissed you off and you're about to lay into them. super angry. but, now lets say you are wearing a locket with a picture of a man that represents an image of jesus to you, or a cross around your neck, and just when you are about to say something 'unchristian', you see this cross and it reminds you that you should ask yourself 'what would jesus do?'...and it calms you down and you make the right choice and walk away without saying something youd regret. that is how a picture or a cross can remind you of jesus' teachings and help you live a more christian life. at no time has this locket or cross been an idol. its only done good in strengthening your christianity in times when you were put to a test.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6
Last edited by max2extreme; 04-12-2005 at 07:52 PM.
04-12-2005, 08:04 PM #36Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
04-12-2005, 09:34 PM #37Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
04-12-2005, 09:45 PM #38
I'm gonna watch the movie tonight
04-13-2005, 12:26 AM #39Originally Posted by max2extreme
Never thought about it this way very good analogy used. But Jesus' teachings should always be upon our minds and never need pictures or symbols to remember them.
04-13-2005, 04:35 AM #40
true, but the bible says that we should be as Jesus is...in other words, perfect. which of course we all know is impossible. God knows this is impossible. So no matter what, there are going to be times in life when we are tested. sometimes our minds will be cloudy and not thinking of the bible. its in those times that perhaps something physical could help remind us mentally. doesnt take the place of jesus on our minds. its just there for times when jesus may not be on our minds. I personally would rather have, a backup plan if you will, for if a time comes up and for some reason i may be about to do something wrong and jesus isnt on my mind, than to not have it and end up going thru with something that i might not have, if i had that reminder. we arent perfect. we need all the help we can get.
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