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  1. #1
    ScreaM's Avatar
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    Wow, evo, or creater?

    This week, my younger cousin came home, and asked me if we "evolved". I guess they are studying this in school now, (10th grade) and he has lots of questions. Now, i dont wanna start anything, but I believe in god, always have, always will, I cant say in a strong church go-er, but I do belive there is some bigger up above. Well, what Im asking, is, what should I tell him, how I feel and try to sway him? Or tell him the facts and let him draw his own concluion? I hope in no way this offended any one, I just wanna know what to do...

    Thank you

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    well. i would tell him that it really depends on faith. because it does. you either put your faith in evolution, or you put your faith in creation. i would tell him some people believe in evolution and give reasons why. and then tell him that you believe in a creator, and this is why. i wouldnt hide anything. hes gonna make his own mind up no matter what you say really. though i would definately tell him how you feel. and i would definatly try to 'sway him'... is it wrong to 'sway someone' in order to save them later? i dont think so. good luck.

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    I would tell him that he should learn what the facts are, and go from there.
    No need to let what religious leaders say get in the way; they once said the world was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, that slavery was OK, and that witches and gay people should be put to death. Nowadays they say the earth is 8,000 years old, that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark, and that gay people and witches don't have to be put to death.
    So, the religious take on evolution may be as accurate as other pronouncements on scientific matters. In that case, you may as well find out why eggheads say evolution makes sense, and then draw your own conclusion.

    -Tock

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    Hey Tock Ive always wondered Have you always been an aetheist or was there one point in your life that you had belief for a creator?

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    My folks never took me to church when I was a kid, but about 10th grade I fell in with a fundamentalist church (The Salvation Army), and eventually did the "accepting Christ as saviour" thing. When I joined the church, they gave me a list of 11 church doctrines to memorize, and I had to agree that I beleived all of them. I didn't really understand them (esoteric stuff like the trinity, and the necessity of water baptism, etc), but that made no difference. They had thought everything out, told me what I should beleive, and that was that.

    I always had questions that I couldn't get answers for, and was told that I'd just have to take some things "on faith."
    Over about 15 years or so, I observed some crazy things in the Christian religion. I visited a pentecostal church and did the "speaking in tongues" thing. Then I discovered that folks in African and Carribean religions jumped around and spoke in tongues too (saw some tapes of 'em on TV), and that got me to thinking about the whole glossolalia business, and from there, other stuff, and eventually I questioned more and more of all that stuff the Salvation Army had me memorize. I read some books on different forms of Christianity, then some books written by atheists, and to make a long story short, it seemed to me that the books written by atheists made a lot more sense than the books by religious people.


    It's not like I have "faith in atheism." IMHO, the claims made by fundamentalists about the bible don't make anywhere as much sense as the criticisms leveled by atheists over the past 2000 years. Determinism makes more sense to me than any religious doctrine I've ever heard.

    -Tock

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    and that is why i dont judge christianity by people, but by the scripture. i went to a church at one time that spoke in tongues as well...and i agree with you, most (probably all, i dont know that i believe in it) were totally fake. so i got out of that church.

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    Badgerman's Avatar
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    I would make an effort to judge scripture.......after all the guys with the smokestack determined the content of the Bible.

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    I would tell him that the secular/materialistic society is trying to brainwash him.

  9. #9
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    ask him to choose

    either have faith in a book writen 2000 years ago
    or
    have fait in something like 95% of the worlds scientists and experts.

    also evolution dosent exclude a creator.

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    thanks to every one for there imput

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    ask him to choose

    either have faith in a book writen 2000 years ago
    or
    have fait in something like 95% of the worlds scientists and experts.

    also evolution dosent exclude a creator.
    i wouldnt put my faith in just a book written 2000 years ago...

    i would put my faith in God's word recorded 2000 years ago.

  12. #12
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    well small diference for those that do not belive in that kind of god and since the original poster didnt mention if the kid is religious or not I think the message should be given in a non religious way so he can make a informed descicion without propaganda.

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    how can you not put it in a religious way? the question is a 100% religious question. you cant answer the question on either side without bringing faith into it. if there was 100% scientific fact/proof for either side, we wouldnt have this discussion. but since there isnt, you cant just paint half the picture.

  14. #14
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    if the bible is considered propoganda, then so is the science book describing evolution.

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    do you aggre that the bibel is written by man and that is the only thing you can prove?

    Do you aggre evolution is a man made theory.

    Im giving both as much credit. I never said the bible ISNT gods word. I just said its a 2000 year old book vs the oppinion of most of the scientist today. How can it be more unpartial? Thats how any non religious person would look at the issue.

    From my point of view evolution has alot of proof. But a theory can never be proven 100% right. And from my point of view(and from any non christian point of view) there is zero proof that the christian god created life. There might be indications that a higher power created life that I do not debate.
    But there is ZERO evidence that it was the christian god.

    Im not trying to stirr something upp here. I just dont think any specific religion should be involved in the creationism vs evolution debate since even if we find proof life is created it still doesnt mean it has to be the christian god.

  16. #16
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    I think its wrong to say that evolution need as much faith as christianity. Max try to look at it from a non christian point of view. Imagine a book with the claims the bibel makes where to be written today. Would you belive in it...

    Evolution on the other hand. We have firm evidence of microevolution and we have solid theories about macroevolution that realy explain most things and breakthroughs very close that will explain the rest(like the cell membrane and aminoacid thing I mentioned in the other thread). Im not saying one should accept evolution blindly just like I wouldnt tell anyone to accept christianity blindly. But you on the other hand make that claim since supernatural things never can be proven scienticifly(then they wouldnt be supernatural would they).

  17. #17
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    he isnt to the point of discussing which religion. i guess i/we might have brought that up too soon. for now, he may not want to bring up certain relgion beliefs. first we are talking about creator vs evolution. this is the first step. if someone doesnt get past evolution, then its pointless to bring up a certain religion (ie christianity, islam, etc). once a person believes there is a creator, then you can take that person into the different beliefs of a religion and why a certain religion stands out. etc.

    for now, he is in the basic 'is there a creator or not' phase. in other words, thats the question he was asked. i think scream, if your cousin is fairly intelligent, and i think a sophomore in high school should be able to follow, i would have him read our debate on "first cause". I believe we pretty much left out christian beliefs, islam beliefs, jewish beliefs, and stuck to the basic arguement of creator vs no creator. yes, some believe there can be a creator and evolution. and i agree to an extent, but when most people say 'creator vs evolution' they are really asking, is there a god and man was created as man or is there no god and we were started as amoebas or what not, evolved over the millions of years into an apelike creature and millions of years finally into what we are today. its this evolution of man that i disagree with.

    what say you johan?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I think its wrong to say that evolution need as much faith as christianity. Max try to look at it from a non christian point of view. Imagine a book with the claims the bibel makes where to be written today. Would you belive in it...
    we arent talking about evolution vs christianity...yet. we are talking about evolution vs creator. it all comes down to the first cause i think. both creator and evolution have some strong and weak points. neither can for sure fact proven say creator is definate nor evolution is definate. so equally, you must put your faith in what you believe after you hear both sides of the story.

  19. #19
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    in these discussions, i try to look at things from a non-christian point of view. sometimes i cant, and sometimes i think i am but really im not, i know this. but looking at evolution from a non-christian point of view, i cant believe in it. throwing out my christian-beliefs, i would much easier believe in a creator AND evolution 'theory' more than an evolution theory. i could throw out evolution but i could never throw out creator. so now i know myself that i believe in a creator, that is when i look at religions, well i wouldnt say i went searching for a religion, cuz i didnt...moreso it found me. and after looking at different religions, some not as in depth at others, etc, i realized, just as i realized that there has to be a creator, that christianity truly is worship of the true Creator. and the bible is His word. And His word says that man was created as man...end of story for me, man was not a product of evolution and im left with Creator. now, this is a very basic summary. but again, scream, check out that 'first cause' thread. and a lot of books and bryan's arguements are probably going to be over your cousin's head (as well as a lot of us here probably...haha), but still a lot of good info in that thread i think.

  20. #20
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    he isnt to the point of discussing which religion. i guess i/we might have brought that up too soon. for now, he may not want to bring up certain relgion beliefs. first we are talking about creator vs evolution. this is the first step. if someone doesnt get past evolution, then its pointless to bring up a certain religion (ie christianity, islam, etc). once a person believes there is a creator, then you can take that person into the different beliefs of a religion and why a certain religion stands out. etc.

    for now, he is in the basic 'is there a creator or not' phase. in other words, thats the question he was asked. i think scream, if your cousin is fairly intelligent, and i think a sophomore in high school should be able to follow, i would have him read our debate on "first cause". I believe we pretty much left out christian beliefs, islam beliefs, jewish beliefs, and stuck to the basic arguement of creator vs no creator. yes, some believe there can be a creator and evolution. and i agree to an extent, but when most people say 'creator vs evolution' they are really asking, is there a god and man was created as man or is there no god and we were started as amoebas or what not, evolved over the millions of years into an apelike creature and millions of years finally into what we are today. its this evolution of man that i disagree with.

    what say you johan?
    fully aggre with this post bro.

  21. #21
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    just spent the last 3 hours at borders (that bookstore i talked about johan) and read a lot of a book titled "Darwin on Trial". Very good book. written by a guy that is unbiased, he is not a believer in a creator, but nor is he a believer in evolution, micro or macro. the book is all about how there really isnt that much reliable information out there as the darwinists try to make out to be. not sure if there are any excerpts online, but if you are interrested in this stuff, good read, i read about 80 pages. very informative.

  22. #22
    Tock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    i wouldnt put my faith in just a book written 2000 years ago...

    i would put my faith in God's word recorded 2000 years ago.
    Ya, well, demonstrate that it IS god's word and NOT just a book.
    -Tock

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    if the bible is considered propoganda, then so is the science book describing evolution.
    Not really.

    Science starts with facts, then finds a conclusion to explain them.
    Religion starts with a conclusion, then finds facts to explain it.

    The Scientific Method has brought more improvement to the human race in 200 years than Religion has over the past 2000. Nobody fights wars over science, but plenty have died in the name of religion.

    -Tock

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    There was a fairly recent article in Scientific American about the "first cause" and the disruption of the singularity at the expansion event of the initial big bang. It was proposed and found that the event was started by of all things......SOUND......and this left a certain pattern of radiation......anyway.......the very fact that SOUND started the creation event lends credence to the claim that G-d spoke the universe into existence.....created by the very WORD of G-d.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Not really.

    Science starts with facts, then finds a conclusion to explain them.
    Religion starts with a conclusion, then finds facts to explain it.

    The Scientific Method has brought more improvement to the human race in 200 years than Religion has over the past 2000. Nobody fights wars over science, but plenty have died in the name of religion.

    -Tock
    Actually you are wrong my friend.......war causes less death.......why??
    because every person dies......anything that causes a reduction in the death rate(hence higher population growth) ultimately causes more death just because there are more people.....who ultimately all die.....THEREFORE the scientific method causes MORE death by its very goals of trying to prolong and protect life.......by holding on to life SO tightly and not embracing the very fact that the normal process is to die, we are destroying ourselves......if we could dispel of the notion that death is so distasteful and pursue a dignified way of living that includes letting go when it is time.......we could all live better......

    And I would wager that G-dless and faithless people have killed more than the practicioners of religion.

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    Which is better??......live a great life until you're 50.......or run around sucking oxygen in your motorized scooter until you're a hundred.......

    Now most people would opt for the sucking oxygen route.....WHY??.....because they are scared of the unknown......but why be scared of the inevitable??......why not help the living have a better life???

    So I say.......modern technology is screwing us up

  27. #27
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    the technology isnt to be blamed. Mankinds greed is. Technology can make our lifes less stressfull and more enjoyable but the greed ****s that upp.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    And I would wager that G-dless and faithless people have killed more than the practicioners of religion.
    The crusades, Hitler(in his mind he was a christian or atleast used the faith to his advantage), the conflict in ireland, rome(i bet plenty of people got killed when christianity was made the state religion of rome), muslims killing hindues in india. Christians vs other christians, the lunatic sects that commit mass suicide(also religions), the japanes nutcases that poisoned the subways, islamic terrorists. Of the major religions only buddhism hasnt started some kind of war.

    What atheist have done horrible crimes? Stalin offcourse. But who else?

    Not just killing take into fact the harm to science that religion has done. Killing people for claiming the earth isnt the center of the universe and god knows what else. Scienticst probably where to comfterable making any claims back when the church ruled supreme.

    ohh well this has been beaten to death so I wont highjack this thread.

    bwt Il rather live a great life for 100 years I long for the day that age wont be a issue anymore. Atleast not for the rich that can afford the gene therapy. Il just make sure Im rich by then.

  29. #29
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    atheist commit the most horrid crime of all. they convice more people to become atheists, thus condemming more people to everlasting torment.

  30. #30
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    Then I guess the religious people need to find more logic behind there reasoning so atheist cant continue to sway belivers into nonbelivers

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    the logic is there. its just people take the easy route and blow it off. it says in the bible anyway that there will be people who will not believe even when its clear as day in front of their face. god has provided. atheist just dont accept.

  32. #32
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    The way to convince people of a belief system is faith in action.........not empty words and arguments.......

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    a miracle or 2 would probably be enough to convince me that there is a god

  34. #34
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    Non-reigous tribes in Africa and the communists have ommitted way more atrocities........Stalin.......Cambodia........the whole continent of Africa.......Afghanistan........of course communism could be consideed a form of religion.
    Claiming to be a Christian......and actually meeting the criteria outlined by Jesus himself are two different things.......narrow is the way and few enter.......therefore
    they may indeed be very few real Christians........maybe only 144000.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    a miracle or 2 would probably be enough to convince me that there is a god
    Your very existence is a miracle bro......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    There was a fairly recent article in Scientific American about the "first cause" and the disruption of the singularity at the expansion event of the initial big bang. It was proposed and found that the event was started by of all things......SOUND......and this left a certain pattern of radiation......anyway.......the very fact that SOUND started the creation event lends credence to the claim that G-d spoke the universe into existence.....created by the very WORD of G-d.......
    Here's a perfect example of science supporting a creation viewpoint.....BUT you guys can not handle it.......your hardened worldview has already dismissed the notion of a creator......and you can not accept evidence from the very methodology you all so strongly embrace!!!!

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    My existance isnt a miracle in my eyes. Its just a product of my parents having sex.

    You get me wrong. I am not a atheist bro. I just dont belive in the christian god. But I would prefer a scientific explanation for everything becuase my faith is that EVERYTHING can and will be explained by science given time. Keep in mind that a creator in my mind can be a valid first cause if his existance can be proven scientificly.

    Any sound traveling in a singularity would be very different from what we consider sound btw. I find it hard to belive that the matter a singularity consists of could even vibrate since its well infinitly dense and infinitly small. Would have to be some kind of "quantum vibrations"?? Ohh well just speculating since I realy dont know much about it.
    I would like to read the article if you can find a link badger it sounds interesting?? Did they state that the sound made the singularity instable so it erupted into the big bang? Or did the sound just effect the expansion pattern?

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    The tribes you mention probably have some kind of primitive belife in spirits or sun gods ect?

    Well very few are "true" christians whatever that is. But very few is also true atheists.

    But when I say a crime commited by a religious person I mean someone that realy considers himself to be religious(doesnt matter if he thinks of himself as christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, hindu, son god worshiper, norse mytologi, the greek goods, zarathustraism, tao ect ect ect).

    Religious belife is the reason for alot of violence that can not be ignored. Im not saying its the religions fault. Its most often the nutcases that interpret the religion wrong. But considering the largets religion encourages people to kill in some verses its not a mysteri that they indeed do that.

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    Originally Posted by Badgerman
    There was a fairly recent article in Scientific American about the "first cause" and the disruption of the singularity at the expansion event of the initial big bang. It was proposed and found that the event was started by of all things......SOUND......and this left a certain pattern of radiation......anyway.......the very fact that SOUND started the creation event lends credence to the claim that G-d spoke the universe into existence.....created by the very WORD of G-d.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Here's a perfect example of science supporting a creation viewpoint.....BUT you guys can not handle it.......your hardened worldview has already dismissed the notion of a creator......and you can not accept evidence from the very methodology you all so strongly embrace!!!!
    One article hardly constitutes proof, or even evidence.
    Plus, since to have sound waves, you have to have something material to vibrate like air or wood or something. Before the creation of the universe, there wasn't anything in existance, so how could there be sound waves if there wasn't anything to vibrate?

    'splain that, mon ami . . .

    -Tock

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    tock he mentiond that the sound made the singularity vibrate so the sound didnt create anything. It just made something already there vibrate explode more or less if I understand it right.

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