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  1. #1
    Tock's Avatar
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    Christians kick Democrat members out of church because they didn't vote for Bush

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/church_politics

    WAYNESVILLE, N.C. - A pastor of a small Baptist church led an effort to kick out church members because they didn't support President Bush, members said.

    The nine members were voted out at a Monday meeting of the East Waynesville Baptist Church in this mountain town about 120 miles west of Charlotte. WLOS-TV in Asheville reported that 40 other members resigned in protest.

    "It's all over politics," said Selma Morris, the church's treasurer. "We've never had a pastor like that before."

    Pastor Chan Chandler had told the congregation before last year's presidential election that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic Sen. John Kerry should either leave the church or repent, said Lorene Sutton, who said she and her husband were voted out of the church this week.

    "He's the kind of pastor who says do it my way or get out," she said. "He's real negative all the time."

    Morris said some church members left after Chandler made his ultimatum in October.

    Chandler didn't return a message left by The Associated Press at his home Friday, and several calls to the church went unanswered. He told WLOS that the actions were not politically motivated.

    North Carolina Democratic Party Chairman Jerry Meek sharply criticized the pastor Friday, saying Chandler jeopardized his church's tax-free status by openly supporting a candidate for president.

    "If these reports are true, this minister is not only acting extremely inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but he is also potentially breaking the law," Meek said.

    --------------------------
    As a FYI on that last paragraph -- the reason why this sort of thing is illegal is that churches are usually registered with the IRS as a religious organization so that it doesn't have to pay real estate or income taxes. Any time a church starts telling people who they have to vote for, well, that's when they start dabbling in politics and fall under a different batch of rules, including regulations for campaign contributing.
    So, those folks need to decide if they want to either campaign for political candidates & the Republican party, or confine their activities to religion, or to combine religion with political activities and give up their tax-exempt status.

    -Tock

  2. #2
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    if true, inappropriate and wrong. people arent perfect. and if this pastor abused his power, then he was wrong. my church and i believe in separation of church and state.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    i believe in separation of church and state.
    How about seperation of state and church?
    -Tock

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    "liberals"

    F*ck the "liberals".

    p.s. Satan is a liberal.

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    Personally I think it is ridiculous that a pastor can't endorse a candidate from the pulpit. In fact that I believe is a violation of the constitution. But we have a bunch of morons in the supreme court now that believe they can make the constitution say what ever they want it to say, forget what is actually says or means.

    By the way "the separation between church and state" does not appear anywhere in the constitution or the amendments.

    But having said all that: That pastor sounds like a moron too, and way over the edge I also agree. He would be the kind of Christian, and that would be the kind of church, I would stay miles away from.

  6. #6
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    IMO what matters here is whether or not this individual is indeed breaking the law with regards to the tax exempt status. If he is in fact breaknig the law the church should be severely punished to set a precedent.

    But all of that aside I am happy when religious crazies act in this manner, makes people see what a sham they really are. Thanks Ned Flanders but the American people don't need you to tell them how to live their life or how to vote.

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    ALLGONOQUIT! is offline Junior Member
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    Idiot right wingers.

    Actually separation of church and state is in the constitution and the supreme court leans well to the right. I tell you all the same thing. Consider if Bush was a radical Muslim and bribed his way in office with money for the poor than for the wealthy and we were promoting radical Islam instead of his version of christianity? Want school prayer? What if your principal is a Hindu or Muslim or something else you disagree with but they force your kid to pray to whomever? My kids pray to Jesus and God and not Mary and not Buddha and not Muhammad! If your kids want to then fine. Do it at home! Here's a Bush doll for you and Jesus IS NOT a Republican or a Democrat. He's above all our bullshit.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mesomorph
    Personally I think it is ridiculous that a pastor can't endorse a candidate from the pulpit. In fact that I believe is a violation of the constitution. But we have a bunch of morons in the supreme court now that believe they can make the constitution say what ever they want it to say, forget what is actually says or means.
    Truth is, pastors can endorse candidates from the pulpit all they want. The only thing is, they have to give up their tax-free status to do it.

    Ya, you don't get tax exemptions when you donate $$$ to the Republican party, the Democrat party, or to any candidate running for anything. And when a church starts behaving like a political organization instead of a religious group, then they have to play on the same taxable rules as political parties and politicians. If they want special status, well, tough.

    So, any preacher can turn his church into a political organization and actively campaign all he wants to on behalf of any politician he wants, but he's gotta conduct his politicking under the same tax rules as any other political organization as established by the US Congress. Otherwise, he can like it or lump it, or pee in a bucket . . .

    -Tock

  9. #9
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    Lmao!

  10. #10
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    By the way "the separation between church and state" does not appear anywhere in the constitution or the amendments.
    http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/phrase.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by chicamahomico
    IMO what matters here is whether or not this individual is indeed breaking the law with regards to the tax exempt status. If he is in fact breaknig the law the church should be severely punished to set a precedent.

    But all of that aside I am happy when religious crazies act in this manner, makes people see what a sham they really are. Thanks Ned Flanders but the American people don't need you to tell them how to live their life or how to vote.
    I won't argue that this guy is a crazy for sure. But the point is what you are saying when you say "if this individual is indeed breaking the law..." is that you believe in the new liberal interpretation of the constitution that goes against over 200 years of previous precedent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLGONOQUIT!
    Actually separation of church and state is in the constitution and the supreme court leans well to the right. I tell you all the same thing. Consider if Bush was a radical Muslim and bribed his way in office with money for the poor than for the wealthy and we were promoting radical Islam instead of his version of christianity? Want school prayer? What if your principal is a Hindu or Muslim or something else you disagree with but they force your kid to pray to whomever? My kids pray to Jesus and God and not Mary and not Buddha and not Muhammad! If your kids want to then fine. Do it at home! Here's a Bush doll for you and Jesus IS NOT a Republican or a Democrat. He's above all our bullshit.
    No it isn't in the constitution. It says there shall be no establishment of a state religion. That is what all of this new liberal bullshit is based on, a far stretch from the original intention of the amendmant in the bill of rights (not the bill of restrictions) and a total re-write of the whole amendmant, a total figment of the supreme courts mind and the liberal presses creation. seems to be working, most Americans believe it really does say that now.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Truth is, pastors can endorse candidates from the pulpit all they want. The only thing is, they have to give up their tax-free status to do it.

    Ya, you don't get tax exemptions when you donate $$$ to the Republican party, the Democrat party, or to any candidate running for anything. And when a church starts behaving like a political organization instead of a religious group, then they have to play on the same taxable rules as political parties and politicians. If they want special status, well, tough.

    So, any preacher can turn his church into a political organization and actively campaign all he wants to on behalf of any politician he wants, but he's gotta conduct his politicking under the same tax rules as any other political organization as established by the US Congress. Otherwise, he can like it or lump it, or pee in a bucket . . .

    -Tock
    It only applies to the Republican Party though, lets get serious, or the Rev Jesse Jackson would have been put in jail shortly after the Supreme Court came up with this marvelous new idea.

  14. #14
    ALLGONOQUIT! is offline Junior Member
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    Article 6 of the constitution

    Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

  15. #15
    ALLGONOQUIT! is offline Junior Member
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    Article [I.] (See Note 13)
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

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    It only applies to the Republican Party though, lets get serious, or the Rev Jesse Jackson would have been put in jail shortly after the Supreme Court came up with this marvelous new idea.

    First of all noone said to put them in jail just to revoke their tax exempt status which I promise you is more sacred to this bible thumper than God is or he wouldn't be worshiping Dumbya instead of God. Second of all Reverend is a title to such as M.D. or J.D. would be to doctors and lawyers respectively. Jesse Jackson doesn't head a church. Republicans in the senate and especially in the house are the ones twisting and changing the constitution not to mention Rehnquist and Clarence "Pube" Thomas. Don't be a hypocrite and get on here and preach right wing crap when they are against everything this website and it's members stand for. Democrats may have crappy handlers but at least they are pro-constitution and freedom rather than being the morality police like Bush and his crew.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mesomorph
    It only applies to the Republican Party though, lets get serious, or the Rev Jesse Jackson would have been put in jail shortly after the Supreme Court came up with this marvelous new idea.
    If the Rev. Jesse Jackson did his politicking from a tax-exempt religious organization, he would have to abide by the rules against mixing politics into the group. Last I heard, he wasn't running any tax-exempt religious groups, so he's free to grouse and politick all he wants.

    Same principle applies to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, you, or me . . . sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. Problem with the Religious Right is that they want to preach politics to folks in church, and that violates the IRS tax exemption rules every bit as much as if they had opened up a profit-making dry cleaners in the choir loft.

    Best for churches to stick to their preaching, and leave profit and politics to other folks. Unless, of course, they want to file with the IRS and Federal Election Commission as a campaign organization . . .

    -Tock

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLGONOQUIT!
    It only applies to the Republican Party though, lets get serious, or the Rev Jesse Jackson would have been put in jail shortly after the Supreme Court came up with this marvelous new idea.

    First of all noone said to put them in jail just to revoke their tax exempt status which I promise you is more sacred to this bible thumper than God is or he wouldn't be worshiping Dumbya instead of God. Second of all Reverend is a title to such as M.D. or J.D. would be to doctors and lawyers respectively. Jesse Jackson doesn't head a church. Republicans in the senate and especially in the house are the ones twisting and changing the constitution not to mention Rehnquist and Clarence "Pube" Thomas. Don't be a hypocrite and get on here and preach right wing crap when they are against everything this website and it's members stand for. Democrats may have crappy handlers but at least they are pro-constitution and freedom rather than being the morality police like Bush and his crew.
    To be perfectly honest I don't like Bush either, at all. And I don't like anyone in the Republican Party that resembles him. I didn't vote for him. I didn't vote for Carey either, he is an even worse looser. I think everyone should retain all of their rights and freedoms. I am for small government that leaves everyone alone. In spite of whether you are willing to admit it, this issue is a miserable twisting of the Constitution and everything it stands for, If you don't admit it to yourselves you are willfully blind. I think we should be following the constitution based on the original intent of the authors. I don't think there should be steriod laws either for the same reasons. That is a persecution of a small minority that because of its small size has its voice taken away from it and it's rights negated, a violation of a president established early in our history also. I would like to see the libertarians rise to power myself.

  19. #19
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    I didn't even read the 1st post...

    Chritians are a group of believers.. plain and simple...

    If they do not like/approve of a group of people that are in the worship services, or in the church then the smaller group without the support of the body of believers have the right to ask them to leave.. and to not include them in thier activities..

    They were voted out by the body of believers.. thus cast out........

    They can always go somewhere else and do whatever it is they want to..

    that's why we have so many denominations today..
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    I guess I am disappointed that this thread didn’t get more folks involved. I am glad you started it Tock. I think Allgonoquit is correct, I seem to be the only conservative in the entire Anabolic Review Forum. I was really enjoying the debate myself. Not to try and change the direction at all, but too me threads like this are awesome. I think this is one of the few countries around that values a good debate of ideas, and yet realize that the debate is over the ideas, not between the people. Not even going to mention the long list of places that have constant civil wars and killing because they are intolerant of differences…. I truly believe we value all ideas and the people that they come from. Since this is a forum formed for those that love to lift, I am sure I could enjoy a trip to the gym with any of you, followed by a good debate over a pizza afterwards. Not too many countries that would understand that kind of tolerance and the multifaceted pursuit of the truth that lies in may diverse ideas. This country is indeed a very unique experiment and a true melting pot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    I didn't even read the 1st post...

    Chritians are a group of believers.. plain and simple...

    If they do not like/approve of a group of people that are in the worship services, or in the church then the smaller group without the support of the body of believers have the right to ask them to leave.. and to not include them in thier activities..

    They were voted out by the body of believers.. thus cast out........

    They can always go somewhere else and do whatever it is they want to..

    that's why we have so many denominations today..
    Very true. As I was thinking on that the Boy Scouts came to mind. They won a very similar landmark decision based on that principle.

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    Kinda seems like more and more, if you ain't a Pledge reciting queer hating Bible b'leeving Christian, you can't be a Republican. Now, the churches are starting to say, if you ain't a Republican, you can't be a Christian.

    This trend can't be good for the country . . . either for Republicans, or for christians . . .

    -Tock

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    ALLGONOQUIT! is offline Junior Member
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    Very true

    America is DEFINITELY the best model we have or should I say the closest thing to a "good" government. I have lived in Scotland, the midwestern U.s. and the southern U.S. and I have liked the all for various reasons. Mixing religion and government however is what has created this enemy of ours(radical Islam). Too much religion in government or even too much religious influence is NEVER good. For example--Northern Ireland and the middle east. The question is which religion as they vary greatly. You can't have organized school prayer because what if you have no choice but to live in a muslim community and you're a christian? Should your kids be FORCED to pray to Jesus or God(Yahweh)? Is it fair for us to do it to others ? Of course not but that's what the repubs are trying to do. Is it fair to give a millionaire a bigger tax break(percentage wise) than to a struggling middle class family? That's what Bush did and yet his "followers" deny it. Ask your accountant He knows the truth. Is that christian? Is invading a country (Iraq) and changing the reason from WMD proliferation to protecting the neighboring countries to spreading democracy right? We're not safer and neither is Iraq. The "American" way to handle it would be to support the domestic party for democracy and let them handle their own problems. Oh well I guess that's enough for now. We're still the best but Bush is heading us in the wrong direction with his "morality policing" at home and abroad and his HUGE deficits that are driving up interest rates and inflation AND gas prices.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLGONOQUIT!
    America is DEFINITELY the best model we have or should I say the closest thing to a "good" government. I have lived in Scotland, the midwestern U.s. and the southern U.S. and I have liked the all for various reasons. Mixing religion and government however is what has created this enemy of ours(radical Islam). Too much religion in government or even too much religious influence is NEVER good. For example--Northern Ireland and the middle east. The question is which religion as they vary greatly. You can't have organized school prayer because what if you have no choice but to live in a muslim community and you're a christian? Should your kids be FORCED to pray to Jesus or God(Yahweh)? Is it fair for us to do it to others ? Of course not but that's what the repubs are trying to do. Is it fair to give a millionaire a bigger tax break(percentage wise) than to a struggling middle class family? That's what Bush did and yet his "followers" deny it. Ask your accountant He knows the truth. Is that christian? Is invading a country (Iraq) and changing the reason from WMD proliferation to protecting the neighboring countries to spreading democracy right? We're not safer and neither is Iraq. The "American" way to handle it would be to support the domestic party for democracy and let them handle their own problems. Oh well I guess that's enough for now. We're still the best but Bush is heading us in the wrong direction with his "morality policing" at home and abroad and his HUGE deficits that are driving up interest rates and inflation AND gas prices.
    I think once again you are zeroing in on elements and exaggerating them where it concerns Bush. But I agree with you completely on the separation issue, and somewhat on Bush too. Example: I didn't like his campaign idea of giving money the religious charitable organizations, just because I think there are the entanglement issues with that idea. I am used to the idea of taking prayer totally out of the schools, even though I think this violates the original intent of the constitution, there I am sure we would disagree once again. Once again it comes down to what is the establishment of religion. I feel it is the establishment of a particular religion. But I also admit now with all the atheists & faiths that are not Judao-Christian, that it is a dead issue not even worth pursuing. You see not all of us conservatives are as radical as you think, lol. But on the issue involved with this thread, I feel very strongly that it is ridiculous, and needs to be fought.

    Your economic views are standard party issues and arguing those would put the thread way off topic. I would also disagree with Bush's way of dealing with the rest of the world, but for different reasons. Britton already tried to bring democracy to the world over 100 years ago, and they ended up in exactly the same mess and learned their lesson. I guess it is our turn now.
    Last edited by mesomorph; 05-09-2005 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Kinda seems like more and more, if you ain't a Pledge reciting queer hating Bible b'leeving Christian, you can't be a Republican. Now, the churches are starting to say, if you ain't a Republican, you can't be a Christian.

    This trend can't be good for the country . . . either for Republicans, or for christians . . .

    -Tock
    That I completely agree with you on. I think it is sad that folks can become brainless parrots of a truth that someone else preached and they swallowed whole without question. But I don't think that is a religious issue as much as it is a human problem. Don't you think the vast majority of Democrats & Republicans fit into that category regardless of their religious views? Dan Rather personally made me sick to my stomach every night. But it seems the majority swallowed everything he said like it was the gospel truth also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Kinda seems like more and more, if you ain't a Pledge reciting queer hating Bible b'leeving Christian, you can't be a Republican. Now, the churches are starting to say, if you ain't a Republican, you can't be a Christian.

    This trend can't be good for the country . . . either for Republicans, or for christians . . .

    -Tock
    You sometimes really exaggerate your position Bro.

    You've took a situation where some people were kicked out of a church, and you are describing that as them no longer being able to practice their religion, they can go to other Churches.

    I too am outraged that this Church has chosen to kicked out members because of their political association.

    I’m just as outraged that other Churches are not allowing Homosexual members in their congregation.

    I think that any Church that screens or black lists its members or practices politics should lose their tax exempt status.

    I also believe, as you pointed out in other posts, that tax exempt status for a Church is a round about way of providing government support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mesomorph
    That I completely agree with you on. I think it is sad that folks can become brainless parrots of a truth that someone else preached and they swallowed whole without question. But I don't think that is a religious issue as much as it is a human problem. Don't you think the vast majority of Democrats & Republicans fit into that category regardless of their religious views? Dan Rather personally made me sick to my stomach every night. But it seems the majority swallowed everything he said like it was the gospel truth also.
    I actually felt bad all afternoon after I put up this post. I guess it is a bit provocative. But I do think think the problem is not related to religion, or one bad party, as much as human nature. And I did think Dan Rather's news was nothing but one big liberal editorial every night. And it does bother me when I meet anyone, including a republican, that believes everything the party stands for. Man it's like, Can't you think for yourself? No body of people, or person has all the truth.

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    No body of people, or person has all the truth.

    Amen Brother!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mesomorph
    I actually felt bad all afternoon after I put up this post. I guess it is a bit provocative. But I do think think the problem is not related to religion, or one bad party, as much as human nature. And I did think Dan Rather's news was nothing but one big liberal editorial every night. And it does bother me when I meet anyone, including a republican, that believes everything the party stands for. Man it's like, Can't you think for yourself? No body of people, or person has all the truth.
    this is true... the party line sucks....

    religion has no place in politics.. but you cannot ask a person to put aside what he is.. at the cost of protecting someone else...

    but if we don't do that we risk becoming a monarch.. . with a religious based government;.. and there are already too many problem governments like that in the world..
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    this is true... the party line sucks....

    religion has no place in politics.. but you cannot ask a person to put aside what he is.. at the cost of protecting someone else...

    but if we don't do that we risk becoming a monarch.. . with a religious based government;.. and there are already too many problem governments like that in the world..
    but you cannot ask a person to put aside what he is. Another important concept that is unavoidable. True religion effects everything a person does and who he/she is. Their whole sense of right and wrong... and that should be a good thing. If the were no people in this country that believed in a higher power or supreme judge, I wouldn't want to live here. Once again, the radical view that if anyone of a particular faith or status within a faith took the office of President it would raise "separation of church and state" (lol) issues is also ridiculous. When Kennedy got elected there were gasps of horror around the country, because a Catholic took the office. There was actually a fear expressed at the beginning of his term of office that the Pope was going to be the one running the country. I guess history repeats itself, but no one remembers the silly notions of supposedly intelligent folks from the past.

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    You gotta wonder about why anyone would want to belong to the sort of church that would throw them out for being who they are.

    Personally, I'm with Groucho Marx: "I would never join any group that would have someone like me for a member."

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