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  1. #1
    GQ-Bouncer's Avatar
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    Isreali Soldier refused unjust orders

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4631141.stm


    An Israeli soldier who refused to help demolish settler buildings in the Gaza Strip has been sentenced to jail.

    "He had requested a military tribunal to judge the case, which was denied. "
    Intresting case, is this an undisciplined soldier? hero? future leader?

    Last edited by GQ-Bouncer; 06-29-2005 at 01:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    This is just an undisciplined right wing extremist soldier who probably killed many palestinian children...he is no hero and no future criminal(because israeli leaders are criminals).

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by GQ-Bouncer
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4631141.stm




    Intresting case, is this an undisciplined soldier? hero? future leader?


    He's an undisciplined soldier. He refused a lawfull order, pure and simple. He deserves to be locked up. GQ, you said you have military experience you should know your bond to follow all lawfull order's.

    "Our's is not to reason why, our's is but to do or die" -Charge of the light brigade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    This is just an undisciplined right wing extremist soldier who probably killed many palestinian children...he is no hero and no future criminal(because israeli leaders are criminals).

    Who has killed more palestinians? Jews or the palestinians themselves.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    He's an undisciplined soldier. He refused a lawfull order, pure and simple. He deserves to be locked up. GQ, you said you have military experience you should know your bond to follow all lawfull order's.

    "Our's is not to reason why, our's is but to do or die" -Charge of the light brigade.
    fair enough, burning down some poor dudes house - especially if he had a family... If i felt THAT bad about it, i would simply take my section cmdr aside and tell him, as oppose to flipping out like this troop did lol

    Some orders shouldnt be followed (i.e. 1968 - Vietnam - The My Lai massacre).

    (I'm in the middle with the LMG)

  6. #6
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    Now the Jews will feel how the Palestianians feel when their homes are demolished, and when they are kicked out of their homes.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Now the Jews will feel how the Palestianians feel when their homes are demolished, and when they are kicked out of their homes.
    Don't you really mean to say, maybe one day? Now is such a strong term and not the reality of what is going on there.

  8. #8
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Now the Jews will feel how the Palestianians feel when their homes are demolished, and when they are kicked out of their homes.

    If they didn't harbour terrorists their homes would be safe. But I know where your coming from too, its horrible to see someone ran out of their home. Ulster catholics suffered the same faith at the hands of protestants and British in Northern Ireland untill the IRA took up arms in defence of them.

  9. #9
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    so they imprison soldiers who don't burn houses, but they exonerate soldiers who empty magazines into 12 year old girls?

  10. #10
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    I was trying to imply that it was a very bold move for this young 19 year old corporal in what is known as a great army. Imagine standing up to your senior NCOs and Officers who are rigid with the killing that goes on in Isreal, and saying "No, this isn't right" and then refusing & and condemning those actions of your platoon. - this kid is NINETEEN!!! He refuses to surcome to "peer pressure" or follow orders "out of fear"

    As an american would say " that takes some balls "

    (a more clear picture)
    Last edited by GQ-Bouncer; 06-29-2005 at 04:36 PM.

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    no that doesent take some balls because he is probably a right wing fanatic and he will get the support of some extremist rabbis in "israel"

  12. #12
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    he was a Combat Engineer btw for anyone who might care

  13. #13
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    Actually I understand him!

    He's was doing action against his own people/citizen...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    so they imprison soldiers who don't burn houses, but they exonerate soldiers who empty magazines into 12 year old girls?

    Yepper! We all know our priorities,

    shalommmmmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    so they imprison soldiers who don't burn houses, but they exonerate soldiers who empty magazines into 12 year old girls?
    I think Rak_Ani covered that one pretty well back when it was current.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I think Rak_Ani covered that one pretty well back when it was current.
    I don't. All she said was that she had faith that the judicial system did justice. And even though many people saw this guy do it, he was still released.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    Yepper! We all know our priorities,

    shalommmmmm
    LOL

    "Shalom" to those who dont know means "Peace" in hebew

  18. #18
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    Relax,
    I'm not back posting, but this thread was screaming for some sense.

    What seems to be ignored here are two things that when combined together they become a serious problem.
    1. This soldier was asked to take action against his country's civilians - who he is supposed to be protecting.
    2. This soldier didn't volunteer for military service. He was drafted because that's the law.

    Now, imagine yourselves, at the age of 18, being drafted without being asked if that's what you want to do, and then being sent to take action against people who are possibly your friends and relatives (in this case this guy's family has strong relations with many families who live in the Gaza strip).
    See the problem?


    Bouncer, this cold "He refused a lawfull order, pure and simple. He deserves to be locked up" attitude doesn't suit this situation. Even military organizations need to be sensitive to their soldiers needs. Had this guy's commander listened to him when he asked not to be taken to service there, this would have been avoided.

    GQ-Bouncer, he did take his commander "aside" several days before. No one listened. They were all with the attitude of "follow orders" and ignored the fact that this guy has serious problems carrying out this mission.

    symatech you're not telling the whole truth. I did say I have faith in Israel's justice system, but what you forgot, for some reason, to mention, is that I also posted a thread a few weeks after the child's case was closed and wrote that it was re-opened after the recording of the officer's conversation on the military radio was found. That thread didn't get much attention or replies...


    And one last thing. Before those of you who I'm probably going to ignore anyway start accusing me of opposing the disengagement plan, I'll just say I drive around with a blue ribbon on my car. Since some here have such a strong opinion on Israel's interior issues, I'm sure you're informed well enough to know what the blue ribbon means and who is the organization that distributes them.


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Relax,
    I'm not back posting, but this thread was screaming for some sense.

    What seems to be ignored here are two things that when combined together they become a serious problem.
    1. This soldier was asked to take action against his country's civilians - who he is supposed to be protecting.
    2. This soldier didn't volunteer for military service. He was drafted because that's the law.

    Now, imagine yourselves, at the age of 18, being drafted without being asked if that's what you want to do, and then being sent to take action against people who are possibly your friends and relatives (in this case this guy's family has strong relations with many families who live in the Gaza strip).
    See the problem?


    Bouncer, this cold "He refused a lawfull order, pure and simple. He deserves to be locked up" attitude doesn't suit this situation. Even military organizations need to be sensitive to their soldiers needs. Had this guy's commander listened to him when he asked not to be taken to service there, this would have been avoided.

    GQ-Bouncer, he did take his commander "aside" several days before. No one listened. They were all with the attitude of "follow orders" and ignored the fact that this guy has serious problems carrying out this mission.

    symatech you're not telling the whole truth. I did say I have faith in Israel's justice system, but what you forgot, for some reason, to mention, is that I also posted a thread a few weeks after the child's case was closed and wrote that it was re-opened after the recording of the officer's conversation on the military radio was found. That thread didn't get much attention or replies...


    And one last thing. Before those of you who I'm probably going to ignore anyway start accusing me of opposing the disengagement plan, I'll just say I drive around with a blue ribbon on my car. Since some here have such a strong opinion on Israel's interior issues, I'm sure you're informed well enough to know what the blue ribbon means and who is the organization that distributes them.


  20. #20
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    Bouncer, this cold "He refused a lawfull order, pure and simple. He deserves to be locked up" attitude doesn't suit this situation. Even military organizations need to be sensitive to their soldiers needs. Had this guy's commander listened to him when he asked not to be taken to service there, this would have been avoided.

    If he complaints were listened to by his commanding officer and he was still sent out into the field he disobeyed a lawfull order and he's getting just punishment, now its maybe time to look at the action of his superiors in sending the soldier out into the field. If the Israeli courts, or government or whoever made the decision to close down this settlement decided it was lawfull to send soldiers in well then he disobeyed those lawfull orders.

    Furthermore in a situation like you have there in Israel his actions could be considered those of a traitor. If these actions were allowed go unpunished you'd be looking at a coup in the IDF.

    Another thing here, this soldier could have went sick with any number of complaints and got off the detail. I think M'guy is probably right in so far as he's probably a right wing extremist. He probably set out that day knowing what he was about to do would bring publicity to the settlers cause. Rak_Ani maybe he wear's an orange ribbon!

  21. #21
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    A true Jewish would be considered as a traitor!

    - Written grafitti, fifht floor, Men's washroom, Hall Building, Concordia University, fourth toilet to the left!

  22. #22
    Rak_Ani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    If he complaints were listened to by his commanding officer and he was still sent out into the field he disobeyed a lawfull order and he's getting just punishment, now its maybe time to look at the action of his superiors in sending the soldier out into the field. If the Israeli courts, or government or whoever made the decision to close down this settlement decided it was lawfull to send soldiers in well then he disobeyed those lawfull orders.

    Furthermore in a situation like you have there in Israel his actions could be considered those of a traitor. If these actions were allowed go unpunished you'd be looking at a coup in the IDF.

    Another thing here, this soldier could have went sick with any number of complaints and got off the detail. I think M'guy is probably right in so far as he's probably a right wing extremist. He probably set out that day knowing what he was about to do would bring publicity to the settlers cause. Rak_Ani maybe he wear's an orange ribbon!
    You're ignoring what I said.

    BECAUSE he's a right winger
    BECAUSE he wasn't given a choice when it came to joining the military
    and BECAUSE he, like most Israelis, has very strong feelings and opinions about this issue, the military must be more sensitive in this case.

    Bouncer, ask yourself, had you been drafted by a mandatory draft, and not volunteered, and then sent to demolish your friends or your relatives' homes, what would you do? How would you feel?
    The fact that this guy tried to follow orders, and ended up bursting out like he did proves that he tried to be a "good soldier" but his emotions couldn't take it.

    This is not a simple situation, and that's probably one of the main reasons for which those who will be doing the evacuation are police and other voluntary organizations.

    No person in a democratic country should be forced into the army and then forced to take action against the citizens of his own country.

  23. #23
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    I'm not ignoring what your saying. For obvious reason's I can't identify with a concripted soldier, or a concript army. I'm a professional soldier in a professional army and their my view's on a soldier pulling that kind of crap. Its as simple as that. Btw, last year when we had the displeasure of Bush visiting Ireland I was part of a 2500 strong force put onto the streets to control Irish protestors protesting his visit, and I hate the cvnt!. So hopefully now you can see where I'm coming from now.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I'm not ignoring what your saying. For obvious reason's I can't identify with a concripted soldier, or a concript army. I'm a professional soldier in a professional army and their my view's on a soldier pulling that kind of crap. Its as simple as that. Btw, last week when we had the displeasure of Bush visiting Ireland I was part of a 2500 strong force put onto the streets to control Irish protestors protesting his visit, and I hate the cvnt!. So hopefully now you can see where I'm coming from now.

    The difference is that you're a professional soldier. You chose this for your career and it's your chosen job. No one made you join the army.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    The difference is that you're a professional soldier. You chose this for your career and it's your chosen job. No one made you join the army.

    So now you understand where I'm coming from...

    In the words of some asshole we used to have here;

    THANK YOU. I WIN

    lol

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    So now you understand where I'm coming from...

    In the words of some asshole we used to have here;

    THANK YOU. I WIN

    lol

    You're missing my point again.

    You were being judgemental about the soldier's actions, comparing him to the kind of soldier you were taught to be, but it's not the same, and your missions aren't the same as his.

  27. #27
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    arguing with an Irishman is like arguing with a Israeli!

    You never win

    that I know! I know!!!

  28. #28
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    You're missing my point again.

    You were being judgemental about the soldier's actions, comparing him to the kind of soldier you were taught to be, but it's not the same, and your missions aren't the same as his.

    And your missing mine. Now do what your good at, beat the shit out of Militiaguy and CAUASIAN and leave poor ol' Bouncer alone.

  29. #29
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    BOUNCER - is trying to say that as a military organization, you cant leave something like this unchecked. What's to stop soldiers who hear of this from disobeying future orders which may be very necessary? what happens when officers lose control of their soldiers?

    Rak_Ani - is trying to say that the military as an organization, should Identify the personal issues of soldiers and not treat them like mindless slaves, as they are not. This order was given outside of combat and so the "urgency of following orders" was not, at the time immediate.

    This can be summed up by that 1964 movie ZULU

    ....BOUNCER is totally Colour Sgt. Frank Bourne.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    arguing with an Irishman is like arguing with a Israeli!

    You never win

    that I know! I know!!!
    yalla la shoof barraaaaaa dhar barraaaaaa dhar wleeeeh

  31. #31
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by GQ-Bouncer
    Rak_Ani - is trying to say that the military as an organization, should Identify the personal issues of soldiers and not treat them like mindless slaves, as they are not. This order was given outside of combat and so the "urgency of following orders" was not, at the time immediate.
    I don't think for a second this guy was a mindless slave, probably more calculating than we're giving him credit for for without his actions we wouldn't be discussing this issue, and I'm sure he's (and his cause) have made the news in the rest of the world too.

    I also can't say he was given order's outside of combat. We're talking about a country (Israel) which is on a constant combat footing for the last 50 yrs, its one of the reason's its got a very large, very strong conscript force. Nope, I think he got what was coming to him, I'd have jailed him too. As I said earlier, I think the actions of his superiors in sending the soldier into the field will probably be looked at to make sure the IDF don't have a repeat his this offence.

    What would have happened had his actions had influenced his comrades to do something similiar, or turn their weapons on their own people?. From an outsider's perspective it would seem Israel has the potential for civil war on its hands, but will Jew turn against Jew?.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    And your missing mine. Now do what your good at, beat the shit out of Militiaguy and CAUASIAN and leave poor ol' Bouncer alone.

  33. #33
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    AFRAID?, BE VERY AFRAID...



    Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, SHE'S back..


  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    AFRAID?, BE VERY AFRAID...


    Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, SHE'S back..

    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Just when you thought you couldn't look any more foolish.....



  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    I don't think for a second this guy was a mindless slave, probably more calculating than we're giving him credit for for without his actions we wouldn't be discussing this issue, and I'm sure he's (and his cause) have made the news in the rest of the world too.

    I also can't say he was given order's outside of combat. We're talking about a country (Israel) which is on a constant combat footing for the last 50 yrs, its one of the reason's its got a very large, very strong conscript force. Nope, I think he got what was coming to him, I'd have jailed him too. As I said earlier, I think the actions of his superiors in sending the soldier into the field will probably be looked at to make sure the IDF don't have a repeat his this offence.

    What would have happened had his actions had influenced his comrades to do something similiar, or turn their weapons on their own people?. From an outsider's perspective it would seem Israel has the potential for civil war on its hands, but will Jew turn against Jew?.
    First, I understand that the british have several Irish regiments (Irish Guards, Royal Irish Regiment, Royal Irish R***es, Royal Irish Fusiliers etc. etc.). Would you think any diffrently if it were a young Irish(british) r***eman who refused an order such as this?

    Second, You know what i meant by "outside of combat". Its not like he decided not to man the machinegun during a platoon raid because he had morale objections last-minute. They werent even attacking a military target, why couldnt Isreali Police deal with this?

    ...Colour Sgt. Frank Bourne.

  36. #36
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    Hey RakAni..ask yourself this:
    imagine if America was a racist aphartied state like Israel and we kept all the blacks and hispanics in these impoverished bantustans, and sealed them in there like it's a jail because America is a white caucasian state , just like Israel is a Jewish State , now imagine if the KuKluxKlan is so damn racist that they have to go into that bantustan (jail) where the blacks/hispanics had been forced into and confiscated more land-forcing the blacks into even tighter spaces, to the point where that bantustan is the most densly populated place on Earth, and then the KKK gets money from the Fed Govt so they can harrass the blacks and the agenda of the KKK is to force the blacks/hispanics out of the country completly and thats the only reason that they moved their..

    lemme tell you somthin, I'd have no problem demoloishing my "friends and relatives homes!



    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    You're ignoring what I said.
    Bouncer, ask yourself, had you been drafted by a mandatory draft, and not volunteered, and then sent to demolish your friends or your relatives' homes, what would you do? How would you feel?
    The fact that this guy tried to follow orders, and ended up bursting out like he did proves that he tried to be a "good soldier" but his emotions couldn't take it.

    This is not a simple situation, and that's probably one of the main reasons for which those who will be doing the evacuation are police and other voluntary organizations.

    No person in a democratic country should be forced into the army and then forced to take action against the citizens of his own country.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteforce
    Hey RakAni..ask yourself this:
    imagine if America was a racist aphartied state like Israel and we kept all the blacks and hispanics in these impoverished bantustans, and sealed them in there like it's a jail because America is a white caucasian state , just like Israel is a Jewish State , now imagine if the KuKluxKlan is so damn racist that they have to go into that bantustan (jail) where the blacks/hispanics had been forced into and confiscated more land-forcing the blacks into even tighter spaces, to the point where that bantustan is the most densly populated place on Earth, and then the KKK gets money from the Fed Govt so they can harrass the blacks and the agenda of the KKK is to force the blacks/hispanics out of the country completly and thats the only reason that they moved their..

    lemme tell you somthin, I'd have no problem demoloishing my "friends and relatives homes!

    Ummm.. first that was a sad, sad little argument.

    Second, how many American ethnic minorities wake up in the morning, go for coffee and then rig a chestbomb to themselves and blow away a schoolbus in the name of Islam?

    This conversations is about the soldier, and not as much about the political state of Isreal

  38. #38
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteforce
    Hey RakAni..ask yourself this:
    imagine if America was a racist aphartied state like Israel and we kept all the blacks and hispanics in these impoverished bantustans, and sealed them in there like it's a jail because America is a white caucasian state , just like Israel is a Jewish State , now imagine if the KuKluxKlan is so damn racist that they have to go into that bantustan (jail) where the blacks/hispanics had been forced into and confiscated more land-forcing the blacks into even tighter spaces, to the point where that bantustan is the most densly populated place on Earth, and then the KKK gets money from the Fed Govt so they can harrass the blacks and the agenda of the KKK is to force the blacks/hispanics out of the country completly and thats the only reason that they moved their..

    lemme tell you somthin, I'd have no problem demoloishing my "friends and relatives homes!




  39. #39
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteforce
    Hey RakAni..ask yourself this:
    imagine if America was a racist aphartied state like Israel and we kept all the blacks and hispanics in these impoverished bantustans, and sealed them in there like it's a jail because America is a white caucasian state , just like Israel is a Jewish State , now imagine if the KuKluxKlan is so damn racist that they have to go into that bantustan (jail) where the blacks/hispanics had been forced into and confiscated more land-forcing the blacks into even tighter spaces, to the point where that bantustan is the most densly populated place on Earth, and then the KKK gets money from the Fed Govt so they can harrass the blacks and the agenda of the KKK is to force the blacks/hispanics out of the country completly and thats the only reason that they moved their..

    lemme tell you somthin, I'd have no problem demoloishing my "friends and relatives homes!

    couldnt agree more!!

  40. #40
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
    CAUSASIAN is offline Banned
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    May 2004
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    Chechnya
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    AFRAID?, BE VERY AFRAID...


    Lets be honest, I am the reason she left, she cant keep up with my argument skills.

    BigGen is going to leave soon. Cause he cant handle it either.

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