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  1. #1
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Are Humans Born Good or Evil?

    Are we born Evil but become good because of society and its laws?

    Or are we Good and become evil because of society and our atmosphere?

    John Locke said people were born good.

    Thomas Hobbes was against that idea and said that people were born evil.

    Religious or Phlisophical answers are good.

  2. #2
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    Thomas Hobbes wrote the book "Levethian" (sp?) during the English Civil War, so his ideas of humanity reflected that (though, philosophically, the war is a cause of human events and henceforth shouldnt be a factor on his observations)

    I believe John Locke is correct, simply because it has been proven that human beings are reluctant to kill their own kind - from a sociological stand point, it has been proven that human beings (even in early ages) worked together in an orderly manner to provide the groups needs
    Last edited by GQ-Bouncer; 07-04-2005 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #3
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    we are born neither good nor evil... we are all products of society and learn from the second we are born. IMO

  4. #4
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    I beleive it is a combination of genetics and enviroment

  5. #5
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    Im evil

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Sane
    we are born neither good nor evil... we are all products of society and learn from the second we are born. IMO
    yeah I agree. I think we are born with the potential to be either good or evil. The lessons we learn and the choices we make throughout life eventually mold us one way or the other.

  7. #7
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    This is profound. Thought you'd like it.

    Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

    The University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?" The professor asked.
    "Yes sir", the student replied.


    The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

    The student became quiet before such an answer.

    The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you question professor?"
    "Of course", replied the professor.
    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"


    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

    Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460? F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either.

    Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color.

    You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.

    The young man's name -- Albert Einstein





  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    This is profound. Thought you'd like it..........

    Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

    The University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?" The professor asked.
    "Yes sir", the student replied.


    The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

    The student became quiet before such an answer.

    The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you question professor?"
    "Of course", replied the professor.
    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"


    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

    Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460? F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either.

    Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color.

    You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.

    The young man's name -- Albert Einstein



    Touchy and sweet... but no thanx...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    yeah I agree. I think we are born with the potential to be either good or evil. The lessons we learn and the choices we make throughout life eventually mold us one way or the other.
    bump couldn't say it any better!

  10. #10
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    NO
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    dude I had enough of this subject with my seminar named "Thinkers, capitalism and the enlightement"

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

    if I ever hear rousseau, locke,smith, hobbes again im gonna go INSANE!!!!!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    This is profound. Thought you'd like it.

    Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

    The University professor challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?" The professor asked.
    "Yes sir", the student replied.


    The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

    The student became quiet before such an answer.

    The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you question professor?"
    "Of course", replied the professor.
    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"


    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

    Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460? F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either.

    Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color.

    You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.

    The young man's name -- Albert Einstein




    good read, thanks for digging that up!

  12. #12
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    [/size][/font] To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.

    The young man's name -- Albert Einstein




    That is an awesome story.

  13. #13
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN DV
    I beleive it is a combination of genetics and enviroment


    Agree. A person can have a picture perfect childhood and still be evil.

  15. #15
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    I believe we are born good, and learn the evil. A child who steals for the first time or does something bad doesnt make that an intentional evil act. A child is ignorant on what is good and bad and needs to be taught what is good and bad. If you never tell your child that ste****g is bad and he steals, its a bad act to us because we know it is. So i feel we are born good, need to be taught what is wrong, and thru our childhood/adulthood, we learn to be evil because for the most part, sin feels good at least at first, thats why its so attractive. but it eventually catches up with you and you wish you could change things or go back to how it was when you were still good and do things over again.

  16. #16
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    i dont know why s t e a l i n g in my above thread is **** out.. ?? but in case you couldnt make it out, thats what it is.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    i dont know why s t e a l i n g in my above thread is **** out.. ?? but in case you couldnt make it out, thats what it is.
    looks like its only the '****' which are blocked. probably b/c of the recent happenings.

  18. #18
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by abstrack
    [/size][/font] To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.

    The young man's name -- Albert Einstein








    That is an awesome story.


    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    That is an awesome story.

    Hmmmm, smells of zionist propaganda to me, what say you?

  19. #19
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    i believe children are born innocent..

    young childrens' and animals' innocence have something in common. that is; they both only "know".. they know what food is, they know if something feels good, or bad, and so on..

    at a certain age we loose that innocence.. we don't just "know" any more.. now, we know, that we "know"... that makes us different from every other living thing.. it is only when we get to that point, that we can be judged on good and evil...

    edit: i think long after we're born, a person decides too be good or wrong (evil).
    Last edited by Tazwell; 07-06-2005 at 12:26 AM.

  20. #20
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    Children are born 50% conscious & with karmic depts.

    They are born because they are 1) Starting a new human life cycle of 108 incarnations, or 2) Continuing to pay off karmic depts from one of their previous incarnations.

    And so they are born with a "clean slate" personality wise -- but not karmicly. This is why we are doomed to repeat the same life, the same mistakes, over and over untill we repay our depts. "...untill every penny is paid for." -- Jesus

  21. #21
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    I believe we are born rebellious.......just look at any little kid and the temper tantrums......


    As far as the Einstein story.......it goes against what God says in Isaiah......
    "I create good AND evil......I the LORD do all these things"

    Einstein created his own version of "God" which isn't the reality.

  22. #22
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    Some people are born as sociopaths or with other disorders so yes some people are born evil imo.

  23. #23
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    IMO the expirences that we have in life make us what we are today. If you have a life that has no stress or worries. Always surrounded by great people and awarded for everything you have done and are encouraged to do good in life, of course your going to be a good person.
    But then if you live around killers, rapist and only tought to steal and kill then you dont know any better.
    So it all depends on how you were raised. I think we are born on neutral grounds.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Agree. A person can have a picture perfect childhood and still be evil.
    I concur. Jeffrey Dahmer! Did he pick up his eating habits from society? That had to be some chemical/psychosis issue or he was just plain evil.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kis55
    Hmmmm, smells of zionist propaganda to me, what say you?
    I'd say it makes no sense and has no bearing on this topic

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    Im evil
    try putting your hand over a candle flame for like 30 seconds if u can even do that much , and tell me if u like it !!

    if that works next we will try a blowtorch !!!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    I'd say it makes no sense and has no bearing on this topic
    Hehehe, this was an old thread, before the crackdown of staying on topic. I was just funnin' with a certain person who posted. Quite often, there are those on this board who spout out "zionist propaganda" time and time again. I used to reply in kind in order to point out the silliness of the phrase.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Some people are born as sociopaths or with other disorders so yes some people are born evil imo.
    Some people ARE born with mental disorders that result in evil acts being committed, however this does not mean they are inherently evil people. They are merely sick. A baby doesn't have the necessary mental or physical prowess to contemplate or commit evil acts, hence they are not evil even though the innate inclination to commit evil (the mental defect) is there. Babies don't even know what death, murder, rape, ste****g and other evil things are!

    No one is born evil. It's not possible.

  29. #29
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    Great post abstrack

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    Some people ARE born with mental disorders that result in evil acts being committed, however this does not mean they are inherently evil people. They are merely sick. A baby doesn't have the necessary mental or physical prowess to contemplate or commit evil acts, hence they are not evil even though the innate inclination to commit evil (the mental defect) is there. Babies don't even know what death, murder, rape, ste****g and other evil things are!

    No one is born evil. It's not possible.
    I guess we need a solid definition of evil to even argue if a mentaly disturbed baby is evil or not.

    If we think of evil as the act of unnecesary violence(or hurt in other ways then physical) a baby isnt evil since it can not commit those acts yet.

    If we think of evil as the urge to commit acts of violence against inocents then the baby can be considered evil since the mental defect is there from childbirth. The baby might not be able to contemplate or reason but the urge most probably exists.

    To the baby, and later to the grown person this would offcourse not be evil. It would just be who that person is.

  31. #31
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    Christiantity teaches that man is born a sinner (evil), and only through Christ will one be saved. That goes right along with what Abstrack's post. Does anyone know if Einstein was a Christian?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Christiantity teaches that man is born a sinner (evil), and only through Christ will one be saved. That goes right along with what Abstrack's post. Does anyone know if Einstein was a Christian?
    einstein was a jew, but he didnt belive in any organised religion.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I guess we need a solid definition of evil to even argue if a mentaly disturbed baby is evil or not.

    If we think of evil as the act of unnecesary violence(or hurt in other ways then physical) a baby isnt evil since it can not commit those acts yet.

    If we think of evil as the urge to commit acts of violence against inocents then the baby can be considered evil since the mental defect is there from childbirth. The baby might not be able to contemplate or reason but the urge most probably exists.

    To the baby, and later to the grown person this would offcourse not be evil. It would just be who that person is.
    You are looking at the question in a different way than I am.

    A baby cannot commit the act of evil when he is born. A baby cannot have evil URGES when he is born, his brain cannot process that information correctly. Indeed, his brain isn't even fully developed so how can he know that he wants to kill someone or rape someone? He doesn't know what killing or rape is. How can he want to end life when he doesn't know what life is? How can he want to force someone to have sex when he doesn't know male, female, sex, penis, vagina? How can he know evil when he hasn't experienced love, hate, jealousy, envy, greed, joy? He hasn't tasted food, drank soda, liquored up, savoured chocolate or really tasted anything.

    It's kinda like "the chicken and the egg." No matter what religion you believe in, the modern chicken wasn't like the fowl that was alive thousands of years ago. Even the thing that evolved into a prehistoric chicken came from an egg. There is no chicken without an egg. Likewise, there is no evil without knowledge. A newborn cannot commit evil acts, when there are none to be commited!

    The genetic predisposition to commit evil will still be in the baby, however the baby is not evil upon birth. Looking at the question literally the answer is NO, a baby cannot be born evil.

    This is of course supposing humans need other humans to develop (which I'm 99.999999e9% sure of.) I think the only way we could tell would be to artificially raise an embryo in a sound proof, lightless, semi-weightless chamber until he was an adult and see what he could do or how he could function. Chances are he would not be able to move or see correctly. Having never learned anything he would still be a physical and mental newborn.

    I have to stop doing mushrooms.
    Last edited by scriptfactory; 12-08-2005 at 10:15 AM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I believe we are born good, and learn the evil. A child who steals for the first time or does something bad doesnt make that an intentional evil act. A child is ignorant on what is good and bad and needs to be taught what is good and bad. If you never tell your child that ste****g is bad and he steals, its a bad act to us because we know it is. So i feel we are born good, need to be taught what is wrong, and thru our childhood/adulthood, we learn to be evil because for the most part, sin feels good at least at first, thats why its so attractive. but it eventually catches up with you and you wish you could change things or go back to how it was when you were still good and do things over again.

    Max how did you come to your conclusion. Man is born fallen from his intended nature and has never been the same. We are born with free will and have the ability to choose good or evil. Man is fallen,

    Let me take this point further. In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, He branded His creation "good." That both defined reality and how we ought to live. Out of that relationship with God all other relationships take their cue, including the use of language in defining the world. We read that Adam named the creatures. That naming was the work of man, as sub-sovereign, defining reality in God's terms.

    It was at this point that truth was tested. The temptation of Satan was the challenge to the first humans to take upon themselves the prerogative of God and redefine reality in their own terms. The lie entered and truth was violated by rejecting the propositional revelation of God and contradicting His definitions of good and evil. By yielding to that temptation Adam and Eve "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," and chose to create their own realities. This, as God had warned, would lead to death and destruction.

    It is noteworthy that when the tempter came to Jesus in the wilderness the temptation was the same, namely, to make His own terms for living. Jesus rejected this seduction by quoting the Word, i.e., the definitions of God. Jesus quoted from the book of Deuteronomy, which literally means the "second law." This was God's law reiterated to His people. The opposite of Deuteronomy is autonomy, or self law. It is in this con-text that we must understand Jesus' statement that the truthfulness of one's intent was revealed by a response to Him, for He is the fulfillment of God's law, and the expression of His truth.

    I have a question. If babies are with out sin, then why does society allow millions of innocent children to be brutally murdered in the womb.

    You will catch liberals making these mistakes constantly in there philosophy. Contradiction after contradiction.

    For instance.
    Liberal: How can you claim children are born sinners?
    Liberal: The Woman should have the choice to kill or prosper the child in her womb.


    If anyone wants to argue my statements, feel free, I will support them.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    einstein was a jew, but he didnt belive in any organised religion.

    Einstein isnt the base of truth. Einstein had a strong presupposition against the existence of God for a long time. This presupposition was not supported by any evidence, it was merely personal.


    Our encounter with nature, life, and the sheer majesty of the universe invites reflection, and often generates a sense of awe. Albert Einstein said, "The mathematical precision of the universe reveals the mathematical mind of God." The apostle Paul wrote to the Romans, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). The information and data points to design; the order and creativity suggest a Creator. And the Scriptures describe a holy and personal being.
    http://www.rzim.org/publications/sli...hp?sliceid=985

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    BeerBaron is offline Senior Member
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    I'll end this arguement right now with something I've brought up many times in this forum. Feral Children. www.feralchildren.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    Einstein isnt the base of truth. Einstein had a strong presupposition against the existence of God for a long time. This presupposition was not supported by any evidence, it was merely personal.
    Yes I know I just made a reply to the question asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    I'll end this arguement right now with something I've brought up many times in this forum. Feral Children. www.feralchildren.com

    How does this explain whether humans are born good or evil? I couldn't find any info on that site to suggest either.

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    i replied to the feralchildren thing before, but i cant find it. either way, basically there are no real cases of feral children being raised by animals (if i remember correctly from that site) which is what beerbaron is going for... where we are no different than animals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    i replied to the feralchildren thing before, but i cant find it. either way, basically there are no real cases of feral children being raised by animals (if i remember correctly from that site) which is what beerbaron is going for... where we are no different than animals.
    I'm not strictly talking animal cases, although they do exist believe it or not. Feral children really just put the nature vs. nurture debate in perspective. Nature allows us to adapt to our surroundings to preserve our own life, so naturally no act would be inherently evil or good; the individual is simply doing what is necessary to survive. The ideas of good and evil exist purely in a social context.

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