08-01-2005, 10:34 AM #1
Paul's ragging on gays in Romans - explained
Thought I'd post the response I made to this "old chestnut" on another site . . . It's pretty good, if I say so myself . . .
Some alleged Christian rags on gays for transgressing the bible, and I show how he's breaking biblical rules himself.
We've been over most of this territory here on AS, but here, I address the strange notion that Paul's ragging on gays in the book of Romans applies to people who accept the terms of the "New Covenant."
That's it . ..
"SOMEONE" wrote in message news..
> Gay Christians?
> who thinks that's contradictory? christians are taught in the bible
> that being gay is wrong and nnatural. gay christians are lying to
> themselves. jesus hung out with sinners (including gays) to heal them
> and have them become moral and to love the true god.
> doctors depend on the sick, as jeus said, so jesus helps sinners like
> gays, mursers, tax collectors and the like. to be a true christian, u
> need to HATE homosexuality, not embrace it as ok and normal.
Well, according to Fundamentalist theology, we are no longer accountable to the "old covenant" rules and regulations, which include the requirements to strict observance of the Sabbath as much as strict observance of the anti-gay rules, both of which merited DEATH sentences to anyone caught violating them. So, for all practical purposes, the old testament rules aren't in effect any more, at least not to anyone who has accepted the terms of the "New Covenant" rules.
Then, in the first chapter of the book of Romans (copied below for your convenience), Paul rags on " . . . the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."
But, a pregnant question to ask is "Who exactly were these fellows Paul railed against?"
Seems to me that if he had in mind the guys before the Ressurection (before the terms of the New Covenant were made available), then Paul was ragging on folks subject to the Old Covenant, and not the new.
Since Paul later says in Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, and Not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul also told his jailers in Acts 16:30"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? "31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Jesus told one woman in Luke 7:48"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. "49": And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? "50": And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. "
In Mark 16, all that is needed to be saved is to beleive and to be baptized --"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
In John 3:16, we are told that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
It seems fairly obvious that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, and since the New Covenant offer is open to gays and lesbians as well as obnoxious heterosexuals like yourself, anyone--and I'm sure Jesus means anyone--who beleives is saved by grace through faith.
Of course, some Pharasees like yourself won't be satisfied with that, because you expect (and hope?) God will turn away people who do not live sinless lives like yourself.
Tsk tsk tsk . . .
Nobody's perfect, mon petite, not even paragons of virtue like yourself. One sin is all it takes to seperate you from God. For you, it may be the sin of Pride, or Stupidity, or Gluttony, or breaking any one of the hundreds of laws written in the Old Testament, like breaking the Sabbath, a crime for which the death penalty is required.
So . . . if Faith is enough for a chronic sinner like yourself to be saved, so it is for your friendly neighborhood gay or lesbian.
Or maybe you think that God's Grace isn't big enough to do that?
Anyway, to get back to my original point . . .
Just who are these "They" that Paul rags on? Were "they" the folks who were under the Old Law, or the folks under the New Covenant?
If you notice, in Romans 1:32, Paul writes that these folks are those who, "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death . . ."
So . . . he is plainly talking about people that deserve the Death Sentence for violating religious rules like sabbath breaking ((Exodus 35:02) and homosexuality (Lev. 20:13) and adultery (Lev. 20:10) and blasphemy (Lev. 24 11-16), not people who are subject to the New Covenant, who are saved by grace through faith, and who don't have to worry about being executed for working on the Sabbath.
I suppose you, being a Pharasee, wedded to a legalistic approach to Christianity, won't take this post to heart, but will only continue to demand other people - Christian or non-Christians - be subject to your silly religious rules instead of embracing Jesus' "Salvation to one and all through Faith" offer. IMHO, if the bible does, for some strange reason, turn out to be true, then you will be the one tossed into the lake of fire for trying to please God through works, and not through faith. And you'll probably end up in the hottest part of Hell for chasing people away from the Gospel, too.
Be that as it may . . . here's the 1st chapter of Romans for your perusal . . .
1: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9: For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10: Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11: For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12: That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13: Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14: I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15: So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Last edited by Tock; 08-01-2005 at 09:03 PM.
08-01-2005, 11:07 AM #2
Through Adam ALL men died........through JESUS .......ALL are made alive........
That's why God is God.......because He is able to accomplish what He desires......and he desires ALL men to be saved........even that hateful cuss Dick Cheney
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