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  1. #1
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    Pentagon Begins Planning Pullout From Iraq

    WASHINGTON — The Pentagon (search) is laying the groundwork for beginning a withdrawal from Iraq


    "Once Iraq is safely in the hands of the Iraqi people, and a government they elected under a new constitution, our troops will be able to come home with the honor they have earned," Rumsfeld said in a speech

    U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, Zalmay Khalilzad announced the creation of a U.S.-Iraq task force to develop a strategy and conditions for transferring the security responsibility from the U.S.-led coalition forces to the Iraqis. "Our common goal is to help Iraq stand on its own feet as quickly as possible," Khalilzad said, adding that this would allow for a phased U.S. pullout.
    There are now more than 180,000 Iraqi police and army troops that have been trained and equipped by U.S. forces.


    IMO,
    This couldn’t happen fast enough, although I completely support or mission and troops in Iraq. The criminality and terrorism that is indiscriminately murdering Coalition forces, Iraqis, and Muslims, is something the Iraqi people need to fight from within. Just as the Muslim world at large needs to fight global Jihadism and terror from within there own society.


    Discuss:
    Last edited by singern; 08-03-2005 at 11:39 AM.

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    About time........let's tuck our tails between our legs and get the hell out of there.......
    then watch the civil war on CNN

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    I am glad, I hope we continue relief efforts and lift sanctions so they can really start rebuilding their infrastructure.

    Some very intelligent Iraqis left Iraq... maybe they should go back to help rebuild, as they did leave because of the regime... Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    I am glad, I hope we continue relief efforts and lift sanctions so they can really start rebuilding their infrastructure.

    Some very intelligent Iraqis left Iraq... maybe they should go back to help rebuild, as they did leave because of the regime... Thoughts?
    Agreed, just as the exiled scholars, and politicians returned to Afghanistan after the removal of Taliban, the same should hold true for a free and democratic Iraq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    This couldn’t happen fast enough, although I completely support or mission and troops in Iraq. The criminality and terrorism that is indiscriminately murdering Coalition forces

    Discuss:
    This is where we differ. While I support the coalition forces and hate it that your guys are being killed in action over there, I also think the Iraqi people have a god given right to defend their country against foreign agressor's. You can't beging to understand a risen people. I hated young British soldiers getting killed here in Ireland, but they were an occupying my country and that in my opinion made them legitimate targets.

    As for America getting out of Iraq, doesn't surprise me. It just surprises me that its taken this long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    This is where we differ. While I support the coalition forces and hate it that your guys are being killed in action over there, I also think the Iraqi people have a god given right to defend their country against foreign agressor's. You can't beging to understand a risen people. I hated young British soldiers getting killed here in Ireland, but they were an occupying my country and that in my opinion made them legitimate targets.

    As for America getting out of Iraq, doesn't surprise me. It just surprises me that its taken this long.
    Your working on the idea that the insurgents and terrorists are Iraqi, It has been reported over and over that the overwhelming majority are not Iraqi, they are foreign fighters, they are not protecting there homeland or there people, and more than that the preferred target is infact Iraqi.
    Last edited by singern; 08-03-2005 at 12:25 PM.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    more than that the preferred target is infact Iraqi.
    Coming from an American isn't that a little hypocritical?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Coming from an American isn't that a little hypocritical?.
    Not at all
    Although I completely support the removal of Sadams brutal dictatorship, and terror supporting ideology. I hold no ill will to the general Iraqi populace, regrettably there have been numbers of Iraqi civilians hurt and killed in this war, but I refuse to believe they were ever intentionally targeted for some religious or nationalistic reason, as they are by the foreign insurgents.

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    Lets hope the "phased" pull out does not require occupation for any length of time... or the rotation of military personnel(aka one year in bosnia... bull shit, one year tours that is)

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    Singern.......you are such a knob......."regrettably there have been numbers of civilians hurt and killed"........you sound like GW.....and hell yes they were targeted by coalition forces.......and we all know you hate brown people.

    Regrettably there are idiots like yourself who fell for Bush's scare tactics and led US into an illegal war.......
    Now with the new Iraqi constitution......women will have LESS freedom than under Saddam.......
    Saddam was brutal to insurgents.......like the Kurds and radical Shiites.......he kept terrorists OUT of Iraq....... now Iraq is worse than Afghanistan.......a terrorist on every corner........but at least the country loves freedom now........

    Maybe once Rumsfeld is out of government he can sell the new guys weapons and poisonous gas too.....ya think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Maybe once Rumsfeld is out of government he can sell the new guys weapons and poisonous gas too.....ya think?
    Preach on Micheal Moore! I mean Baderman... It is one giant conspiracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Singern.......you are such a knob......."regrettably there have been numbers of civilians hurt and killed"........you sound like GW.....and hell yes they were targeted by coalition forces.......and we all know you hate brown people.

    Regrettably there are idiots like yourself who fell for Bush's scare tactics and led US into an illegal war.......
    Now with the new Iraqi constitution......women will have LESS freedom than under Saddam.......
    Saddam was brutal to insurgents.......like the Kurds and radical Shiites.......he kept terrorists OUT of Iraq....... now Iraq is worse than Afghanistan.......a terrorist on every corner........but at least the country loves freedom now........

    Maybe once Rumsfeld is out of government he can sell the new guys weapons and poisonous gas too.....ya think?
    Gee wiz Mr. Wilson, why are you so angry.
    Why does the fact that I can distinguish between terrorists and military forces operating by strict guidelines offend you so. Why does the fact I harbor no Ill will to Iraqis twist your tampon, and please for the 100th time supply credible proof of your never ending fictional ramble regarding American forces purposefully and intentionally targeting civilians........

  13. #13
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    "Shock and awe" buddy.....it's the whole principle of pacification.......are you too stupid to figure that out??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Preach on Micheal Moore! I mean Baderman... It is one giant conspiracy.
    C'mon Meso......Saddam and Rummy were buddies WAY before Moore.......and maybe before you were born......
    want the picture of the chums shaking hands???

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Gee wiz Mr. Wilson, why are you so angry.
    Why does the fact that I can distinguish between terrorists and military forces operating by strict guidelines offend you so. Why does the fact I harbor no Ill will to Iraqis twist your tampon, and please for the 100th time supply credible proof of your never ending fictional ramble regarding American forces purposefully and intentionally targeting civilians........

    The guideline #1........bomb the shit out of as much stuff as possible so companies can make as much profit as possible during the rebuilding

    #2......kill lots of civilians under the guise of military operations to pacify the country........and especially kill the young men who might harbor a rebellious thought in their mind.......just cause they're guys......you know.....the testoterone and all........territorialism.......all that crap that freedom haters have.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Preach on Micheal Moore! I mean Baderman... It is one giant conspiracy.



  17. #17
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    Yeah........but funny thing it is Rumsfeld wearing the foil hat......

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

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    United States Interests Section in Iraq Cable from William L. Eagleton, Jr. to the Department of State. "[Excised] Iraqi Pipeline through Jordan," January 10, 1984.

    The head of the U.S. interests section tells Washington, "the Iraqi leadership was extremely pleased with Amb. Rumsfeld's visit. Tariq Aziz had gone out of his way to praise Rumsfeld as a person . . ."

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    United States Interests Section in Iraq Cable from William L. Eagleton, Jr. to the Department of State. "Iraqi Warning re Iranian Offensive," February 22, 1984.

    Between presidential envoy Donald Rumsfeld's two visits to Iraq to seek ways to improve U.S.-Iraq relations and to identify measures to assist Iraq's war efforts, the Iraqi military issues a statement declaring that "the invaders should know that for every harmful insect there is an insecticide capable of annihilating it whatever their number and Iraq possesses this annihilation insecticide."

    Source: Declassified under the Freedom of Information Act

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    Letter from Richard M. Nixon to Nicolae Ceausescu. [Regarding U.S.-Romanian Venture to Sell Uniforms to Iraq], May 3, 1984.

    Former president Richard Nixon sends a letter to Romanian President Nicolae Ceausescu in support of a deal made by Colonel John Brennan, his former aide and chief of staff, and former attorney general John Mitchell, to buy Romanian-manufactured military uniforms for export to Iraq.

    Media and criminal investigations of U.S. companies that had exported weapons-related or dual-use items to Iraq were conducted after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Many of these companies seemed to have connections with former U.S. government officials.

    Source: Court exhibit

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    "Shock and awe" buddy.....it's the whole principle of pacification.......are you too stupid to figure that out??
    Wrong again.
    Shock and awe as destructive as it was, targeted only military instillations, government facilities, and presidential palaces, using smart weapons and surgical accuracy. I have never read or seen anything that states a civilian target was chosen.As usual you cannot or will not give credible evidence of your anti US ramblings. instead you chose to use examples of political de****gs from people no longer in positions of power and references of historical events which have no relative connection to the current situation.
    Last edited by singern; 08-03-2005 at 02:11 PM.

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    Department of State, Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs Briefing Paper. "Iraqi Illegal Use of Chemical Weapons," November 16, 1984.

    Indicates that the U.S. concluded some time ago that Iraq had used "domestically produced lethal CW" in the Iran-Iraq war, developed in part through "the unwitting and, in some cases, we believe witting assistance" of numerous Western firms. The State Department's Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs thinks that Iraq stopped using chemical weapons in response to a U.S. demarche in November 1983, and resumed their use in February 1984.

    Source: Declassified through Congressional investigation

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    United States District Court (Florida: Southern District) Affidavit. "United States of America, Plaintiff, v. Carlos Cardoen [et al.]" [Charge that Teledyne Wah Chang Albany Illegally Provided a Proscribed Substance, Zirconium, to Cardoen Industries and to Iraq], January 31, 1995.

    Former Reagan administration National Security Council staff member Howard Teicher says that after Ronald Reagan signed a national security decision directive calling for the U.S. to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq's defeat in the Iran-Iraq war, Director of Central Intelligence William Casey personally led efforts to ensure that Iraq had sufficient weapons, including cluster bombs, and that the U.S. provided Iraq with financial credits, intelligence, and strategic military advice. The CIA also provided Iraq, through third parties that included Israel and Egypt, with military hardware compatible with its Soviet-origin weaponry.

    This affidavit was submitted in the course of one of a number of prosecutions, following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, of U.S. companies charged with illegally delivering military, dual-use, or nuclear-related items to Iraq. (In this case, a Teledyne affiliate was charged will illegally selling zirconium, used in the manufacture of explosives, to the Chilean arms manufacturer Carlos Industries, which used the material to manufacture cluster bombs sold to Iraq.) Many of these firms tried to defend themselves by establishing that providing military materiel to Iraq had been the actual, if covert, policy of the U.S. government. This was a difficult case to make, especially considering the rules of evidence governing investigations involving national security matters.

    Source: Court case

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    Quote Originally Posted by singern
    Wrong again.
    Shock and awe as destructive as it was, targeted only military instillations, government facilities, and presidential palaces, using smart weapons and surgical accuracy. I have never read or seen anything that states a civilian target was chosen.
    As usual you cannot or will not give credible evidence of your anti US ramblings.
    There are civilians all around "military installations"........you are one stupid guy.........hopefully all Americans aren't as dumb as you.......unless of course we are selling you something......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    There are civilians all around "military installations"........you are one stupid guy.........hopefully all Americans aren't as dumb as you.......unless of course we are selling you something......

    You seem confused and angry, is it because there are people who don’t accept your fictional ramblings at face value, or because you just cannot face you could be on the wrong side of reality.

  26. #26
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    Singern's motto......."in Smart bombs I trust"

    and on the back........"Kill all brown people"

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2092759

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Singern's motto......."in Smart bombs I trust"

    and on the back........"Kill all brown people"

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2092759
    Where is the intentional targeting of civilians?

    Over the course of the war, U.S. air forces mounted 50 so-called "decapitation strikes." The bombs accidentally killed several dozen civilians who happened to be near the explosions, but they killed none of the Iraqi leaders they were intended to strike.

    The problem was not with the bombs. The bombs were as accurate as advertised; they hit precisely where they were aimed. The problem was with the pre-strike intelligence; the Iraqi leaders—the bombs' targets—turned out to be someplace else.

  28. #28
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    " There is enough evidence from studies done after World War II to suggest that the only people who do not succumb to the stress of war are those who are already mentally aberrant in a clinically defined sense. About 2 percent of soldiers exposed to combat over long periods of time do not break under the stress. An examination of these 'heroes' reveals that their most commonly held trait was that they were 'aggressive psychopathic personalities' who were that way before they entered the battle zone. The lesson seems to be that only the sane break down. Those already mentally ill appear able to adjust to the horror of combat. " (Gabriel, pg. 79)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    Where is the intentional targeting of civilians?


    Ever hear of error by omission my dumb little fella???

    They targeted military......but really didn't give a damn if civilians died or not........because the're brown.

    They're targeted because they live there.........error by omission.......
    Last edited by Badgerman; 08-03-2005 at 02:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    " There is enough evidence from studies done after World War II to suggest that the only people who do not succumb to the stress of war are those who are already mentally aberrant in a clinically defined sense. About 2 percent of soldiers exposed to combat over long periods of time do not break under the stress. An examination of these 'heroes' reveals that their most commonly held trait was that they were 'aggressive psychopathic personalities' who were that way before they entered the battle zone. The lesson seems to be that only the sane break down. Those already mentally ill appear able to adjust to the horror of combat. " (Gabriel, pg. 79)

    Singern would make a good 2% er

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Ever hear of error by omission my dumb little fella???

    They targeted military......by really didn't give a damn if civilians died or not........because there are brown.

    They're targeted because they live there.........error by omission.......

    There is no need for the adolescent name calling.

    In your opinion the military "didn't give a damn if civilians died or not........because there are brown." however I don't value your opinion, so Singern and I are asking you for proof.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Singern's motto......."in Smart bombs I trust"

    and on the back........"Kill all brown people"

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2092759
    OK now I hate brown people? An Ignorant pathetic attempt to justify your own insecurities.
    I continuously ask you for relevant, and credible data backing up your posts, but all I get from you is irate incoherent trash talk. wouldn’t it be more reasonable to accept the possibility you could be wrong.

  33. #33
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    Here's a couple examples.........but heck........they're just brown people





    Checkpoint deaths
    Late on 31 March, US troops open fire on a civilian van that fails to stop
    at a checkpoint. Seven Iraqi women and children are killed, according to US
    officials.

    US account: US officials say the driver of the car failed to stop after
    warning shots were fired over the car and then at its engine. Soldiers fired
    at the passenger cabin "as a last resort". US soldiers at checkpoints were
    said to be jumpy after a suicide attack at a checkpoint had killed four
    servicemen. Pentagon officials insist that the correct procedures were
    followed, and that soldiers had acted in "the appropriate way".

    Other reports: William Branigin, a reporter with the Washington Post
    embedded with the US Third Infantry, witnesses the shooting and has a
    different account. He says that 10 people were killed, and no warning shots
    were fired. He reports that after the shooting Captain Ronny Johnson, the
    commander at the checkpoint, yelled at his platoon commander: "You just
    [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon
    enough!" US forces, according to William Branigin, offered the survivors of
    the incident financial compensation.

    Cluster bombs
    Iraqi account: Officials in the Iraqi capital say that US forces have been
    dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas in Iraq. First reports of the use
    of cluster bombs in the war appear in the Western media on 3 April.

    Coalition denial:US and British officials deny the use of cluster munitions.
    British military spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon said: "We are not using
    cluster munitions, for obvious collateral damage reasons, in and around
    Basra."

    Later UK account:A military official in London tells BBC News Online: "We
    have used them elsewhere." He said they were an effective weapon of warfare,
    for example to target a convoy of military vehicles, but were only used in
    the open far from built up areas. UK Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon defends
    the use of cluster bombs in Iraq on 4 April, saying they are legal and not
    using them would put British soldiers at greater risk.

  34. #34
    Bigen12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Here's a couple examples.........but heck........they're just brown people
    In your opinion “they’re just brown people”


    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Checkpoint deaths
    Late on 31 March, US troops open fire on a civilian van that fails to stop
    at a checkpoint. Seven Iraqi women and children are killed, according to US
    officials.

    US account: US officials say the driver of the car failed to stop after
    warning shots were fired over the car and then at its engine. Soldiers fired
    at the passenger cabin "as a last resort". US soldiers at checkpoints were
    said to be jumpy after a suicide attack at a checkpoint had killed four
    servicemen. Pentagon officials insist that the correct procedures were
    followed, and that soldiers had acted in "the appropriate way".

    Other reports: William Branigin, a reporter with the Washington Post
    embedded with the US Third Infantry, witnesses the shooting and has a
    different account. He says that 10 people were killed, and no warning shots
    were fired. He reports that after the shooting Captain Ronny Johnson, the
    commander at the checkpoint, yelled at his platoon commander: "You just
    [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon
    enough!" US forces, according to William Branigin, offered the survivors of
    the incident financial compensation.
    With out a doubt this is a tragedy, but not intentional targeting of civilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    Cluster bombs
    Iraqi account: Officials in the Iraqi capital say that US forces have been
    dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas in Iraq. First reports of the use
    of cluster bombs in the war appear in the Western media on 3 April.

    Coalition denial:US and British officials deny the use of cluster munitions.
    British military spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon said: "We are not using
    cluster munitions, for obvious collateral damage reasons, in and around
    Basra."

    Later UK account:A military official in London tells BBC News Online: "We
    have used them elsewhere." He said they were an effective weapon of warfare,
    for example to target a convoy of military vehicles, but were only used in
    the open far from built up areas. UK Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon defends
    the use of cluster bombs in Iraq on 4 April, saying they are legal and not
    using them would put British soldiers at greater risk.
    Cluster bombs, used in the open desert against a convoy of military vehicles, is not intentional targeting of civilians.

  35. #35
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    Oh, I pooped alittle laughing so hard at badgerman in his foil hat...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    Cluster bombs, used in the open desert against a convoy of military vehicles, is not intentional targeting of civilians.
    But one thing I do agree with badger about is, cluster bombs are not descriminative of civilians or military. We have dropped over 10 thousand in Iraq... Even some artillary units are complaining that there is not a clear target.

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    Gee.......with enough cluster bombs and depleted uranium.........we can make it so no one can live there.........but what the heck.........we really don't care if brown kids get a leg blown off from an un-exploded cluster bomb........just don't let the white kids play in that country......that would be a TRAGEDY.......unless of course make-a-wish takes him to meet Peyton Manning.......then it's ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    but what the heck.........we really don't care if brown kids get a leg blown off from an un-exploded cluster bomb........just don't let the white kids play in that country......that would be a TRAGEDY
    You act like everyone thinks that way... We? Who are 'we'? I and most think it is tragic that any child, black, brown, white or yellow is harmed in war. You sound like a racist. Do you hate all white people?

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    Yes indeed it is tragic........but more tragic if it is a white evangelical kid........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    You act like everyone thinks that way... We? Who are 'we'? I and most think it is tragic that any child, black, brown, white or yellow is harmed in war. You sound like a racist. Do you hate all white people?

    Do you really need to ask?

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