Thread: Mormonism and Christianity
08-11-2005, 03:59 AM #1
Mormonism and Christianity
First, I want to say that Im not saying there arent mormons that are christians. What I am saying is that if you follow and believe in what Mormonism teaches, then it is not christianity. IM not going to flood the very first post with all these reasons. Ill start off with a few, and let you all read and discuss and then Ill post more reasons why I believe this, and we can read and discuss. What I dont want is this to become a thread that gets a little hostile like the catholic thread did at times. you may say "well if i believe this, it doesnt make me not a christian". remember this is a broken up piece of writing and all these reasons are why the mormon church is not christian.
in joseph smith vision, he said when he was 14, he asked god what church to join and the father and jesus appeared to him and said dont join any because they were all wrong. over the next 10 or so years, he claimed other heavenly messengers appeared to him. through these messengers, they told Joseph that he was the Elijah to come and eventually claimed to be given authority to restore the church. now, what about matthew 17:12-13 which says "But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
MOrmons believe that after the apostles had died that their followers changed their teaching. Then, in 1820 joseph smith had a vision and the teaching was restored. well, would that not mean that the satan won over the church for thousands of years. Now, read the bible, Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So what is true? What the bible teaches, or what Joseph Smith teaches?
Ill wait a day or so, then ill write more... if i wrote everything down, it would be too long and noone would want to read it...also, i know a lot about the mormon church. but not everything. im not claiming to be an expert, but im not uneducated on the subject either.
08-11-2005, 11:36 AM #2
Mormons are more like Christians than Christians..........stepping back and taking a look.......the Apostle Paul's story of conversion is a little off the wall too.
08-11-2005, 12:00 PM #3
Matthew 16:18 is usually quoted by catholics. Peter being the founder of the catholic church, popes are suppose to be spiritual decendents of peter.
08-11-2005, 12:06 PM #4
Also I am sure you are going to quote scripture about christian faith, belief in jesus and the repenting of sins for salvation; where as mormons believe works and following the law(old testament) will guarantee salvation.
08-11-2005, 12:33 PM #5
interesting argument !
08-11-2005, 12:50 PM #6Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
Peter is the founder of the christian church, the first one now named the catholic church. Then we had all the splitted, from orthodox, protestant, angli, mormon, well the 30 000 so called christians forms
08-11-2005, 04:31 PM #7Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
08-11-2005, 05:00 PM #8Originally Posted by mark956101957
Christians in the US are no different than anybody else....all wrapped up in house payment and turning their kids into egocentric douche bags....and they claim to have some kind of special relationship with God??? All I see is money worship by the mega churches........Jesus Texas style
08-11-2005, 06:46 PM #9
In mormonism, Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. This doesnt make sense to me if Jesus is God. That would mean God had a brother, to a christian. So to you mormons, do you say that Jesus is not God? Or where did you come up with this "spirit brothership"?
In christianity, jesus is the only begotten son, which in hebrew, "begotten" mean heir, not offspring. and he is God the son, as read in John 1:1. Im sure you all know this since its been used quite a bit here... "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god.". then in John 1:14 "and the word became flesh and dwelt among us."
if im not mistaken, mormons feel jesus is A god, but not the father God. If this is the case, then does it not make sense that that means there are 2 gods? yet theres the verse in the old testament where god says "i am the alpha and omega, the first and the last" and then also Jesus says in rev "i am the alpha and omega, the first and the last". Which is is lying? they cant both be what they claim...unless they are one in the same.
this from Joseph Smith, history of the mormon church, vol 6 pp 308, 474 "In the beginning the head of Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people on it...in all congregations when I have preached on the subiect of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods."
This from the BIBLE: Gen 1:1 In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth. Is 43: 10-11 You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom i have chosen so that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
So, does it seem like God of mormonism is God of christianity with just these few things here? So far, not to me. ill post more later.
08-11-2005, 06:54 PM #10Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
08-12-2005, 02:43 AM #11Originally Posted by max2extreme
Interesting........but I believe the Spirit of Christ is the messenger known as Michael......the archangel of the LORD........the right hand of God.......Lucifer is the left hand of God........the other Archangel......so indeed the Mormons might be right.
08-12-2005, 02:43 AM #12
The left side of God scares people.......
08-12-2005, 07:34 AM #13Associate Member
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Im only here for a minute. I gotta run. but I have one question. Has anyone read the Book of Mormon, doctrine and covenants, pearl of great price. I would say read these. I have read all and the bible KJ version which is the preferred by the lDS church. We can fight individual interpretations all day. When I have more time. Ski a great winter
08-12-2005, 07:37 AM #14Originally Posted by mark956101957
08-12-2005, 07:39 AM #15
If you want a good laugh, check out verse 54 of the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants. It's a verse where, reacting to his wife's anger over his infidelity and polygamy, Joseph Smith declares that she will be destroyed if she does not allow it. The Doctrine and Covenants are generaly accepted by Mormons to be the words of god.
08-12-2005, 07:58 AM #16Originally Posted by inheritmylife
08-12-2005, 07:58 AM #17Associate Member
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by W. John Walsh
Are Mormons Christians? Yes, Latter-day Saints are indeed Christians. "Jesus Christ is the central figure in the doctrine of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that:
"the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).
Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always accepted Jesus of Nazareth as testified of in the Bible: the divine Redeemer and Son of God who atoned for the sins of all mankind and ensured our universal resurrection. The church has never ceased to affirm that there is no other name given whereby man can be saved (see Acts 4:12). Another book that the church reveres as scripture, the Book of Mormon, declares on its title page that it was written "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."
In LDS belief, Joseph Smith is the prophet through whom God restored the Church of Christ and named it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (See Restoration of the Gospel home page). He stated that "the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."1 Members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ gratefully rejoice in Christ's atonement, confidently anticipate his glorious return, expect to be brought before him when he judges the entire human race, and hope to dwell with him for all eternity. Surely all who profess such beliefs can lay claim to being called Christians.
Obviously there are doctrinal differences between Mormons and people of a variety of other Christian denominations. But Latter-day Saints believe that it must be possible for people to have different points of view and still be Christians. Given the large number of Christian denominations, all of whom disagree on points large and small, this conclusion is inescapable. Latter-day Saints embrace as fellow Christians those who profess faith in Jesus Christ. In the same vein, they believe that no doctrinal difference or variation in practice can loom so large as to cancel out their own sincere belief in and commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Redeemer.
Latter-day Saint beliefs are in harmony with what the Bible calls Christian. The terms Christian or Christians occur only three times in the New Testament (at Acts 11:26; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16). In each case these terms simply refer to those who follow Christ, which applies fully to Latter-day Saints.
Members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fail to find other definitions of Christianity persuasive-definitions based on interpretations of the Bible by particular denominations or on the interpretations of the classical creeds from the early Christian centuries. Latter-day Saints doubt that anyone has the authority to exclude others from Christianity based on these definitions. As C. S. Lewis observed:
It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense . . . When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.2
Furthermore, any such definitions that would exclude Mormons would expel other groups too-groups that most people would find it very odd to classify as non-Christians. For example, demanding that believers in Christ accept the trinitarian teaching of the Nicene Creed in order to be considered Christians implies that the bishops who voted against that creed at the Council of Nicea were not really Christians. It also questions the Christianity of the many followers of Christ who lived before Nicea, and thus before the full development of classical trinitarian doctrine.
Likewise, Latter-day Saints are puzzled by the declaration that only those people who base their faith and practice exclusively on the sixty-six books of the traditional Protestant biblical canon are Christian-that canonical list was clearly not settled, according to the records of Christian history, until several centuries after the death of Christ, and still is not universally accepted. This definition would banish not only the Latter-day Saints, but also many of the followers of Jesus from the first centuries, about two hundred million Eastern Orthodox Christians, as well as the Roman Catholics who anchor their belief in the authority of apostolic tradition.
Consider further the claim that, because Mormons believe salvation to be connected with the authority of a church, they cannot be considered Christians. This claim also defines out of Christendom many of the greatest of the early Christian fathers, to say nothing of the Church of Rome and virtually all of Eastern Christianity.
In other words, definitions of Christianity based on the specific beliefs of one denomination or group of denominations are not very helpful. They often don't take into full account Christian history, and they don't help determine who is or isn't Christian.
The historical fact is that the word Christian has been used over the centuries to describe a wide range of practices and theological positions, including some that Latter-day Saints find just as seriously mistaken as do their Protestant critics. For instance, the Marcionites rejected the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and John. The Docetists denied that Christ possessed a real physical body. Yet these groups and many others are routinely referred to as Christians by the scholars who have studied them most.
Christian teachings and practices can be more or less inadequate, even seriously mistaken, while remaining Christian, just as competing theories of the solar system can vary and still lay claim to being scientific theories. The only definition of the word Christian that accounts for its use through the centuries and that includes all the individuals and groups who are universally regarded as falling under its description seems to be roughly this: A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus Christ as, uniquely, his or her Lord and Redeemer. By this definition, faithful Latter-day Saints, along with hundreds of millions of other believers in Jesus of Nazareth distributed across many denominations over thousands of years and on every continent, abundantly qualify as Christians.
1. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1976), 121.
2. C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1952), 11.
Copyright by FARMS
by Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin
Some people erroneously believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members are not Christian. We have difficulty understanding why anyone could accept and promote an idea that is so far from the truth. President Gordon B. Hinckley has described Church members as a people "bound (together) by a common love for our Master, who is the Son of God, the Redeemer of the world. We are a covenant people who have taken upon ourselves His holy name."
Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents. "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
A dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus," and "one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus." Thus two characteristics identify Christians: First, they profess belief in the Savior, and second, they act in harmony with the Savior's teachings. Faithful members of the Church called Saints or Latter-day Saints, qualify clearly in both characteristics. In our belief and our action, we demonstrate that "Jesus Christ Himself (is) the chief corner stone" of our faith.
For Elder Wirthlin's full comments on this issue, see Christians in Belief and Action.
08-12-2005, 08:01 AM #18Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
Read Under the Banner of Heaven, by Michael Krakauer. Joseph Smith was a huge, blundering douch-bag.
08-12-2005, 08:13 AM #19Associate Member
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08-12-2005, 10:44 AM #20Originally Posted by Badgerman
if you believe this, where did you get the info that the spirit of God is Michael? and the left hand of God is the other archangel? if you believe the spirit is michael, then do you also believe that michael is God? Because in christianity, the trinity is God the father, son, and spirit...if you believe the spirit is michael, then you must believe that God is father, son and michael...?? And where do you get your info that lucifer is the left hand of god? it kinda blows me away that you think this, being that, as far as I know, its nowhere in scripture.
08-12-2005, 10:50 AM #21Originally Posted by skiing
08-12-2005, 10:52 AM #22
skiing, havnt read your long post yet, just fyi. its LATE here, and i just wanted to see the responses thus far and respond to what i could quick... peace.
08-14-2005, 07:59 PM #23Originally Posted by skiing
Christianity believes that Jesus is God. And he took the form of a human to come to earth.
Philippians 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Jesus was eternally with God and was God, creator of all things:
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jesus Christ has always been the same: or does LDS not say that there was a progression to be a god?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Jesus is the ONLY begotten son of God
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
In LDS, according to below, Is Jesus Christ God incarnate or is he the first spirit child of God?
"every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother. (see D&C 93:21 and Discourses of Brigham Young, p 26)
Jesus christ is also the brother of Satan, not found anywhere in the bible:
from Gospel Principles. 1997. "Chapter 2 Our Heavenly Family." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 11.
We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?". Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27)...
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1).
Since we are talking about jesus, the same attributes would be for God the father since they are one in the same in christianity, correct?
John 5:44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jude 1:25 to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
and many more proclaim one and only one God.
Now, from mormon teachings... D&C 121:32 "...the council of the eternal god of all other gods before this world was..."
PoGP: Abraham 4: Heading "The gods plan the creationg of the earth and all life thereon...
PoGP: Abraham 4:1 ...And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and earth.
PoGP 5:2 And the Gods said among themeselves: on the 7th time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the 7th time from all our work which we have counseled.
in the bible, god is spirit, invisible and cannot be seen except if He reveals himself. (can provide verses if needed)
in LDS, does this have a different meaning than the obvious?
D&C 130:22: The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans' the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit. were it not so, the holy ghost could not dwell in us"
ill write more later, have to do some things...wish i could stay now.
08-14-2005, 09:15 PM #24Originally Posted by max2extreme
08-15-2005, 02:28 AM #25
Tock, i was asked my beliefs and why i believe that the mormon church is not a 'christian church' but a christian cult. any thing you post that isnt on the thread topic, i will not respond to. Thank you for the compliment and respect referring me as mr. bible scholar.
08-15-2005, 02:56 AM #26
The mormon teaching concerning salvation is pretty much the opposite of the NT revelation of justification by faith and redemption solely by grace through faith in christ (ephesians 2:8-10).
the mormon doctrine of salvation involves not only faith in christ, but baptism by immersion, obedience to the teaching of the mormon church, good works, and 'keeping the commandments of god which will cleanse away the stain of sin' (journal of discourses, 2:4). which is totally against hebrews 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no remmision of sin".
also, in the journal of discourses, 8:61 "Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression 'Blessed God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned with glory, through the all-redeeming merits of christ the lord!' this is all nonsense. such a character will never see heaven."
the above goes against christian doctrine of salvation which teaches that a person at any time sincerely repent of his sins, even at the 11th hour, and receive forgiveness and eternal life. in the bible, when jesus addressed the thief on the cross who had repented of his sins at the last moment, so to speak, crying "lord remember me when thou comes into thy heaven" (luke 23:42). the answer of jesus was "today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (luke 23:43).
quite interresting is that mormon skirts these verses by claiming that "Paradise" is the spirit prison where the dead go to hear the mormon "gospel" preached. on page 309 of "teachings of the prophet joseph smith", joseph smith claimed luke 23:43 should read "this day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits." but note that smith does not give this rendering in his "joseph smith translation" of the bible. in the JST it reads the same as the KJV (in the JST is is verse 44, not 43).
08-15-2005, 09:02 PM #27Originally Posted by max2extreme
I will say, though, that you seem to be better versed in what's in the Bible than most folks, and someday that will make you a formidible atheist.
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