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  1. #1
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    date of genesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    Also, keep in mind that the first 5 books of the Bible were most likely written after there were kings in Israel, given this interesting verse from Genesis 36:31-- "And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." The writer here knows of Israel's kings, and given that King Saul and King David (Israel's first two kings) are purported to have reigned close to 1000 BC, the author of this passage would have had to lived after this time.
    And the author would have had to have written Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers after the time of King David, and some 500 years after the time of Moses.
    Could this not be a prophecy by moses that a king would eventually reign in israel? in deuteronomy, moses also says they (israel) will sin by wanting a king and god will give it to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Could this not be a prophecy by moses that a king would eventually reign in israel? in deuteronomy, moses also says they (israel) will sin by wanting a king and god will give it to them.
    Could it be? Well, about as much as I could have a thousand mutant aliens living inside my spleen. Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.

    The verse in question, "And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel," uses the word REIGNED in the past tense. There's no reason to suppose the writing was meant as a prophecy.
    Check any number of other bible translations, you'll find that their scholars, all of them, translated the phrase the same way.

    Consider also the last chapter of Deuteronomy, which Christian Fundamentalist also attribute to Moses. Verse 1 through 6 tells of how Moses went to Moun Nebo, and died. Verse 7 to 12 tells what happened afterward.
    Now, common sense tells us that no way could Moses have possibly written the last 6 verses. But then, common sense is not a strong suit of Christian Fundamentalism.

    Read Deuteronomy 34 for yourself, no need to take my word for it:

    Chapter 34
    1: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
    2: And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
    3: And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
    4: And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
    5: So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
    6: And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
    7: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
    8: And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
    9: And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
    10: And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
    11: In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
    12: And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.
    Last edited by Tock; 08-15-2005 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    in deuteronomy, moses also says they (israel) will sin by wanting a king and god will give it to them.
    Oh ya, this is how so-called "prophecies" work in the Bible -- someone writes about what's supposed to happen around 1000 BC, only they don't get around to writing it until after it happens. Then they attribute the prophecy to a fictional character in their religious folklore to make their religion seem legitimate.
    Ha.
    This sort of pap would explain why the ancient Hebrew writings tell unlikely tales of talking serpents, improbable tales of a planetary flood involving the sudden appearance and disappearance of a mass of water equal to a cube 1000 miles on a side. It would also explain the oddly improbable and uncorroborated tale of the destruction of the Egyptian Army and the loss of over half the Egyptian population -- both significant events recorded by no other historical records of the period.

    Ya, it's nothing but fiction. Folklore pumped up and made to serve religious purposes. Swallowed by gullible Christian Fundamentalists, hook line & sinker.
    As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

    Congratulations. You're the subject of a "prophecy."

    -Tock

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    also, the first king of israel referred to in this verse could be moses himself. Deuteronomy 33:5 says "Moses prescribed the Torah to us, an eternal heritage for the congregation of Jacob. He was king in Jeshurun when the people's leaders gathered themselves together, [and] the tribes of Israel were united."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Oh ya, this is how so-called "prophecies" work in the Bible -- someone writes about what's supposed to happen around 1000 BC, only they don't get around to writing it until after it happens. Then they attribute the prophecy to a fictional character in their religious folklore to make their religion seem legitimate.
    Ha.
    -Tock
    HA! is right. how did they know it was supposed to happen in 1000bc before it happened? only to write about it really happening...around 1000bc? sounds like a prophecy to me. though this is not how it happens. id like you to explain how they knew it was supposed to happen and it not be a prophecy.

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    Originally Posted by Tock
    Oh ya, this is how so-called "prophecies" work in the Bible -- someone writes about what's supposed to happen around 1000 BC, only they don't get around to writing it until after it happens. Then they attribute the prophecy to a fictional character in their religious folklore to make their religion seem legitimate.
    Ha.
    -Tock



    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    HA! is right. how did they know it was supposed to happen in 1000bc before it happened? only to write about it really happening...around 1000bc? sounds like a prophecy to me. though this is not how it happens. id like you to explain how they knew it was supposed to happen and it not be a prophecy.
    Um, the kings of Israel started with Saul, then David, then Solomon. Bible Timelines like the one at
    http://agards-bible-timeline.com/timeline_online.html
    place David at about 1000 BC. Since he was only the second king of Israel, and Genesis 36:31 refers to "Kings who reigned over Israel," then Genesis 36:31 must have been written after 1000 BC. So, as you said before,

    Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Could this not be a prophecy by moses that a king would eventually reign in israel? in deuteronomy, moses also says they (israel) will sin by wanting a king and god will give it to them.


    . . . it is probable that the anonymous author of that text wrote it after 1000 BC, when he knew about kings in Isreal. And again, since animals don't talk to people except in fairy tales, and since there is absolutely no information about a mass exodus from ancient Egypt and subsequent decimation of its military in ANY of the otherwise thorough ancient history texts, and since the whole tale of Noah's Ark is highly improbable, it is much more likely that the first 5 books of the Christian Bible is nothing more but a collection of ancient Hebrew folklore.
    And since humans have a strange tendency to beleive in the darndest things -- cults, polytheistic religions, UFO religions, Santeria, David Koresh, polygamy, Mormonism, Christian Science, Scientology, etc etc etc, all of which are based squarely on uncorroborated presumptions, Orthodox and Fundamentalist Christianity is most likely, as musicians would say, "Same Song, Second Verse." No different from the folks they refer to as "Heathens."

    But, just as a Fundamentalist Muslim or Devout Christian Scientist or Brainwashed Scientologist would harumph and clutch their collection of tortured rationalizations, so Fundamentalist Christians will do the same thing.


    Nevertheless, beleive what you like, however absurd it may be. Just don't involve me into any of if . . .

    -Tock

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