08-15-2005, 01:42 PM #1
Militiaguy Some Questions about SHIA'S ?
hey man salaam wa alikum .............. just starting this thread to ask u some questions since i am not too much familiar with SHIAs thought of school ....... first i'd like u to give me some backgorund on how the shias came about , cause that will make understand more how different or close they are to the "ahlay- sunnah"
08-15-2005, 01:51 PM #2
08-15-2005, 06:06 PM #3
shia in arabic mean followers , basicly the followers of Imam ali ,shia see that muhammed (pbuh) wanted Imam Ali to be the kalifa after him instead of the 3 kalifat befor him, they believe that Imam Ali and his sons will continue the path of the prophet (pbuh) and that they inherited all the knowledge from him and that all the Muslims should obey them.
The difference between the shia and the sunni was a political difference at the begining precisely in the time of the "rashidiyin kalifats" then this hole between the shia and the sunni got bigger and bigger after the opression made by the "amawiyin" and "abasiyin" against the shia Imams then the difference became an ideology difference were the shiite made the belief in the 12 Imams (1- Ali, 2-Hassan, 3-Hussein, 4-zein el abidin,5- Muhammed el baker, 6-Jaafar el sadek , 7-al kazem, 8-Ali el rida, 9-Muhammad el jawad, 10-Ali el hadi, 11-Hassan el askari, 12-Imam el mahdi) as a mandatory in Islam, and they think that abi-bakr ,Omar and mouawiya the 3 kalifats are wrong.
The shia have the temporary marriage which is forbiden in the Sunna section.
beside I am a descendant of the 11th Imam, Imam Hassan el askari.
Last edited by MilitiaGuy; 08-15-2005 at 06:09 PM.
08-15-2005, 06:08 PM #4New Member
Originally Posted by zOaib
- Join Date
- Mar 2004
the Sunnies beleive they should apply every and each word of the Qoran .. .very conservatives !!!
NB : I'm not muslim , so this is mny own info
08-16-2005, 06:28 AM #5Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
thx man .................. i dont find that too different , although i do know there some sects in SHIA's who dont practice temporary marriage ............ anyways just that one thing doesnt make it soo different , and Allah alone is the one to judge right n wrong ................ what i find really crazy is that since Hazrat Imam Hussain and Hazrat Imam Hassan were both the grandsons of Muhammed (pbuh) the sunnis stray away from even mentioning their martyrdom for ISLAM , which was a turnign point in islamic history , they think by supporting that , they will all become SHIAs or something ..........cause in our mosque and many others i have been to during MUHARRAM 1 to 10 days , which is a month where moses lead the jews out of bondage and also during that month jesus was taken up to heaven , so many big events took place but , for us muslims there was another big event , the martyrdom of Hussain ibne Ali............ and i just find it stupid for people to not mention it altleast , and only shias do so ........................ anyways i respect Imam Hussain and his sacrifice for ISLAM .............. thx for the info !
08-16-2005, 06:31 AM #6
actually the sunnis believe in the mahdi too , and also that he will be a decendant of Muhammed (pbuh)
08-16-2005, 10:30 AM #7
What is a temporary marriage?
08-16-2005, 10:42 AM #8Originally Posted by zOaib
08-16-2005, 10:46 AM #9Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
double faced BS to give two people some "justification" to have legally sex!
08-16-2005, 10:51 AM #10Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
The first one who legislated Mut'a with all the rules pertaining to it, was the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), after it was revealed in Quran. All Muslims agree that the Messenger of Allah legislated Mut'a and made it legal after his migration to Medina, and the Muslims practiced it during his lifetime. (see al-Mughni, by Ibn Qudamah, v6, p644, 3rd Edition). However there is a disagreement between the Shia and most of the Sunnis concerning whether the Prophet later banned it or not. Most Sunnis assert that although the Prophet legislated it, he later forbade it. This is while the Shia believe that temporary marriage was never abandoned by the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Besides no Quranic verse was revealed to ban the previous Quranic verse which made Muta legitimate, and Hadith can not oppose Quran. Allah revealed it in Quran, and it was being widely practiced to the end of his lifetime and during the period of Abu Bakr and the early days of Umar's rule, until Umar forbade it.
Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said: (...Except the forbidden women) the rest are lawful unto you to seek them with gifts from your property (i.e., dowry), provided that you desire protection (from sin), not fornication. So for whatever you have had of pleasure (Istamta'tum) with them by the contract, give unto them their appointed wages as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what you both agree (in extending the contract) after fulfilling the (first) duty. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise. (Quran 4:24)
In the above verse, the Arabic equivalent of the word "marriage" or any of its derivatives has NOT been used. Rather the derivative of word "Mut'a" (pleasure/temporary marriage) has been used, i.e., "Istamta'tum". The word Istamta'a is the tenth verbal form of the root m-t-a. As we will show shortly, the word Istamta'a has also been widely used in the authentic Sunni collections for Temporary Marriage. Of course, Mut'a is one type of marriage, but some of it's regulations are different than the permanent marriage, including the fact that the couple can extend this contract by mutual agreement as the end of verse specifies.
Moreover, if we look at the Sunni commentaries of Quran, many Sunni scholars such as Fakhr al-Razi confirm that the above verse (4:24) was revealed about the Temporary Marriage (Mut'a). They straightforwardly mentioned that temporary marriage became Halaal (permitted) DUE TO the above verse, but they assert that it was later prohibited. It is astonishing that many Sunni commentators mentioned under the above verse that: Ali said: The Mut'a is a mercy from Allah to his servants. If it were not for Umar forbidding it, no one would commit (the sin) of fornication except the wretched (Shaqi; an utmost wrong-doer)." Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi, under commentary of verse 4:24 of Quran; - Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v3, p200, commentary of verse 4:24;
A very similar tradition has also been narrated by Ibn Abbas , and was mentioned by al-Tabari and al-Tha'labi in their Tafsir of Quran. It is interesting to note that Umar did not attribute the prohibition of Mut'a to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). They were others who did that after Umar mainly to justify what he did. Umar clearly mentioned that: "Mut'a WAS permitted at the time of the Prophet and I PROHIBIT it!" The great Sunni scholar, Fakhr al-Razi, who has been given the title of "Imam al-Mushakkikeen" (the leader of ever-questioners/ever-doubtful) by the Sunnis, in his voluminous commentary of Quran mentioned under the verse of Temporary Marriage that: Umar said: Two types of Mut'a were (legal) during the time of the Prophet and I forbid them both, and I punish those who commit it. They are: Mut'a of pilgrimage and Mut'a of women. Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Fakhr al-Razi, v3, p201 under verse 4:24 - Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p52
Also in another Sunni commentary it is reported that: Umar said, while on the pulpit: "O folk! Three were (allowed) during the time of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), and I forbid them, and make them Haraam, and punish on them. They were: Mut'a of women, Mut'a of Hajj (pilgrimage), and saying 'Hayya Ala Khair al-Amal'." Sharh Al-Tajreed, by al-Fadhil al-Qoshaji, (Imama Section) - al-Mustaniran, by al-Tabari
Remark: The third item mentioned above which was prohibited by Umar, is what is said in the Call for Prayer and Iqaamah after the phrase "Hayya Ala al-Falah", and it is practiced by the Shia to this date. It means "Hasten for the best deed". This part of call for prayer was abolished by Umar as well. Instead, he replaced it by the sentence: "Prayer is better than sleep"!
Who could we find better that Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari , the great companion of the Prophet, who according to Sahih Muslim said: "Istamta'a means contracting temporary marriage" (Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI titled: Temporary Marriage, Tradition #3246. Please see part II for the full Arabic text of the tradition).
Jabir did NOT relate "Istamta'a" to consuming the marriage in general. Furthermore, in the verse 4:24 Allah states, "...And there is no sin for you in what you both agree after fulfilling the duty (i.e., dowry of the first contract)". The mutual agreement after the duty refers to extending the period of temporary marriage after full payment of the previous dower, so that the woman can freely decide on the continuation of the marriage with no pressure or temptation. In this way, Allah encourages that people who are engaged in Mut'a will get more reward if they extend it to a bigger period (or perhaps convert it to a permanent marriage) by assigning a new dower after fulfilling the previous dower. Tafsir al-Tabari, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, under the verse 4:24, v8, p180.
Another reason for the fact that the dowry mentioned in the above verse does not refer to permanent marriage, is that Quran has already talked about the dowry for permanent marriage at the early part of the very same chapter by saying: 4:3 "...Marry women of your choice two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one..." 4:4: "And give the women (of permanent marriage) their dower as a free gift"
It is clear that the above verses are about permanent marriage and the dowry associated with it. So there would be no need that Allah repeats it along with its associated dowry again in the very same chapter. However if Allah intended to discuss about Mut'a, then it is some thing new. And this can be inferred from the choice of words which Allah used in the verse of Mut'a (4:24) by using the derivative of Mut'a in contrast with the other verses around it.
Allah is discussing different types of marriages: first, permanent marriage in the verses before Verse 24, then temporary marriage in Verse 24, and then marriage with the slave girls in Verse 25. Thus Allah repeated the issue of dowry three times, one for permanent marriage, one for temporary marriage and one for the bondwomen.
Also many Sunni commentary books mentioned similar to the tradition of Sahih al-Bukhari (see part II) with more details and put it under the verse 4:24 of Quran: Imran Ibn Husain narrated: "The verse of Mut'a (4:24) was revealed in Allah's Book, and there did NOT came any other verse after that to abrogate it; and the Prophet ORDERED US to do it, so we did it at the time of Allah's Apostle, and he did not forbade us from it till he died. But a man (who regarded it illegal) expressed what his own mind suggested." Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi, under commentary of verse 4:24 of Quran
It is narrated that: Abu Nadhra said: Ibn Abbas recited the verse 4:24 with the addition of "to an appointed time". I said to him: "I did not read it this way." Ibn Abbas replied: "I swear by Allah, this is how Allah revealed it," and Ibn Abbas repeated this statement three times." Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, under the verse 4:24, v8, p177, Tradition #9038
This verse was revealed towards the beginning of the Prophet's stay in Medina. By the revelation of this verse, the temporary marriage became a legal custom in Medina and was looked upon as one kind of marriage and was referred to by the term Istimta'a, the same word employed in the Quranic verse - even though the literal meaning of the word is "to seek benefit" or "to take enjoyment". Hence the meaning of the Quranic verse must be understood in terms of the conventional usage of the time, for as is well-known in the science of Quranic commentary and Islamic jurisprudence, the Quran follows the conventional usage of the people in all edicts and legal prescriptions. If someone wants to understand a word in the Quran in other than the conventional meaning of the time, he must supply a strong reason for doing so. Moreover if one looks up the traditions of the chapter of temporary marriage in the authentic Sunni collections such as Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, one can see that the messenger of Allah and his companions exactly used the word Istimta'a when referring to this contract, which is exactly the same word as what Quran employed.
As was indicated above, the Sunnis agree that at the beginning of Islam Mut'a was permitted. For example, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (d. 606/1209), the famous Sunni theologian, writes in his Commentary on the Quran that Mut'a was at first permitted. The Prophet made a lesser pilgrimage (Umrah) to Mecca, and the women of Mecca made themselves up especially for the occasion. Some of the Companions complained about the long separation from their wives, and the Prophet replied: "Then go and enjoy (Istamta'a) these women." (Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v3, p286)
The Imam Ja'far was asked: "If the wife becomes pregnant as a result of Mut'a, to whom does the child belong?" He replied: "To the father," i.e., the child is legitimate. (Wasa'il al-Shia, v14, p488)
Ibn Abbas was asked: "Is Mut'a fornication or marriage?" He answered: 'Neither the one nor the other.' The questioner then asked: "Well then, what is it?" Ibn Abbas replied: "It is Mut'a', just as God has said." The questioner continued: "Is there a waiting period in Mut'a?" He replied: "Yes, a menstrual period." He was also asked: "Do the husband and wife inherit from each other?" He answered: "No." Reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v3, p286
The Imam Ja'far considered Mut'a a divine mercy by means of which people were saved from the sin of fornication and delivered from God's retribution. Concerning the Quranic verse: "Whatsoever mercy God opens to men, none can withhold (35:2)," the Imam said: "Mut'a is part of that mercy." (Wasa'il al-Shia, v14, p439).
08-16-2005, 11:33 AM #11Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
In Morrocco, an Arab Muslim gent got busted sleeping with a girl that was not his wife (not to mention a bunch of hashish in his possesion as well)... police offered him two options: go to jail or get married! He got married...
Divorced her a few years later though...
08-16-2005, 11:51 AM #12Originally Posted by Warrior
morocans girls are EVIL!!!!!!!!!!
08-16-2005, 11:53 AM #13Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
i dont want to argue this topic with militiaguy because in the END , Allah almighy is the judge for who is right n who is wrong !
just so u know i am SUNNI and we dont practice it !
08-16-2005, 11:54 AM #14Originally Posted by Warrior
08-16-2005, 11:57 AM #15Originally Posted by zOaib
08-16-2005, 12:25 PM #16
I have only some problems with Shia.
I dont like it when they add to the Shahada this is the Shahada - "There is no god except God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"
Some Shias say "I testify that there is no god but Allah, and I testify that Mohammed is his Messenger, and I testify that the Commander of the Faithful, the Pure Leader, Ali, is the friend of Allah, the successor of the Messenger of Allah, and nothing can come between them."
I also dont like the posters of people or Imams that hey carry and the fact that they visit tombs and place shrines on dead people like Imam Khomeni. And some have the posters of Imam's in mosques.
I also dont agree with the fact they beat themselves up to celebrate the martrydom of Imam Hussein.
But I am sure they dont agree with things Sunnis do. But in today's world, to me they are the purest and best defenders of Islam. From a country like Iran to Lebanese Hizbollah.
08-16-2005, 12:48 PM #17Originally Posted by bayak222
08-16-2005, 02:41 PM #18Originally Posted by zOaib
Vandoo - why evil?
08-16-2005, 02:51 PM #19Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
08-16-2005, 03:07 PM #20Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
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