Thread: Hell/LoF...separated from God??
09-21-2005, 12:04 AM #1
Hell/LoF...separated from God??
So, what do you all think about God and his presence in hell or the lake of fire? I dont really know because God is supposed to be omnipresent and here are 2 verses to support both points of view. My view is the last paragraph, at least for now:
1) Here, it appears that the eternal judgment goes on in the presence of
Revelation 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud
voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on
his forehead or on his hand, 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of
the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence
of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of
their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his
2) Here, it appears the judgment goes on away from the presence of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with
tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest
with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on
those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be
punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in
His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our
testimony among you was believed.
Now, when comparing a believer with an unbeliever and god's "presence", because believers have a personal relationship with Him, you can say that God is always "with" his believers in that special sense where as he is not with the unbelievers; but he is always present with believers and nonbelievers alike, just not that special relationship...so i think that even in hell and the lof, god is omnipresent (meaning that hell/lof isnt just a separation of God) but that god is "with" his believers always in that special relationship which he doesnt have with the unbelievers.
Whats your thoughts??
09-21-2005, 12:55 AM #2
I believe there is some presence of God in Hell. He is there in his wrath but not in his mercy.
Ps 139:8 "If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there"
"For in Him all things hold together."
His love, mercy, ect is absent in hell.
09-21-2005, 06:57 AM #3
09-21-2005, 07:32 AM #4
I don't believe in hell or satan, but it was my understanding that hell was the only place God was not present. Or maybe it's the only place where his love isn't present.
09-21-2005, 09:42 AM #5
if the judgment goes on without gods prescense then who is responsible for the punishment.
09-21-2005, 09:48 AM #6Originally Posted by johan
Lucifer is like a guy that hates his neighbor... The neighbor is a large man(represent God), so lucifer kicks the mans dog and pushes his boy while he is not looking.
09-21-2005, 11:48 AM #7
but anyone going to hell does not belong to god. They would be more like lucifers boys.
Why would lucifer punish those that doesnt follow god?
09-21-2005, 11:52 AM #8Originally Posted by johan
Edit: to hurt God indirectly
Last edited by Mesomorphyl; 09-21-2005 at 12:19 PM.
09-21-2005, 12:22 PM #9
In doing so he would serve gods will wouldnt he. What would be the point in that. If he treated everyone in hell like kings he would be going against gods will and revarding those that turn his back to god.
09-21-2005, 03:37 PM #10
There is no free will.......God will be All in ALL.......the fire is AGE -LASTING......
Greek philosophy has corrupted God's Word
09-21-2005, 07:37 PM #11Originally Posted by johan
09-21-2005, 08:22 PM #12Originally Posted by Badgerman
If there there is no free will then good and evil must not exist, correct? Is this what you are saying.
09-21-2005, 08:57 PM #13
According to At. Robertson a better translation of 2 Thessolonians 1:9 would be " does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation from the face of the Lord (apo proswpou tou kuriou) and from the glory of his might"
Some form of Gods prescence is by no means ruled out.
09-22-2005, 12:20 AM #14
No.......Good and Evil comes from God himself.......that's what He says....and it is the only way to view God without commiting intellectual suicide......
free will falls into the hands of evolutionists and humanists......might as well be an atheist if you claim free will.
09-22-2005, 12:23 AM #15
To think that a man's will can stand in the way of the God who created the universe is totally ludicrous and anti-scriptural........God save us from your small God.
09-22-2005, 12:42 AM #16Originally Posted by Badgerman
You are describing spiritual rape. God is forcing you to love him (no choice). Forced loved is not love at all.
Your statement raises logical contradictions, how can God be both good and evil, for you claim good and evil originated from him.
Forced love is not real because love only exists if free will exists.
So you claim that God has forced you to love him. Why didnt God force every one to love him. This would be would be sin. How can a all loving God be perfectly evil. Your statement is impossible badgerman
-Your statement makes human kind out to be robots with no choice.
-If you want to see love in its purest form, look to the cross. The bible describes what Christ did as a ransom. He shows his perfect love at the cross. God not man hung on that cross as a ransom for all would believe. The love is mutual because we have free will to deny his love.
09-22-2005, 01:20 AM #17Originally Posted by max2extreme
09-22-2005, 01:30 AM #18
Be good go to heaven... be bad go to hell.
Nough said...if there is no heaven at least you were good neways and made people happy around you. You only have 100 years to live after that you'll know the answer everyone is lookin for, why trouble others with a debate that will never be settled and we will all oneday have an answer to. Live your life like you wanna.
09-22-2005, 09:58 AM #19Originally Posted by books555
No...... I'm just describing the way it is.......the reality.......you are describing a made up God who is in a war with evil. There is no war for God.......He does it all.......you are unwilling to let God be God and elevate man to a position he has not reached........God is the only one with free will.......we are his instruments to use as he darn well pleases........but because you see man as possessing some sort of power over himself you eviserate(sp?) the very power of the almighty.
And to say that Christ died only for believers is ludricrous because all men died under Adam.......likewise all will be made alive through Christ.......you try to make Salvation a selective club........instead of proclaiming a truth......you proclaim a methodology. The gospel is true whether anyone believes it or not.......and God will make it a reality.
09-22-2005, 11:31 AM #20Originally Posted by johan
I think that's a good point, although I think hell is a state of being, not a place.
If God is all partially evil, then how can "he" (as you all refer) also be perfect? Questions such as this clearly show the inaccuracies of the most popular paradigms for describing God. If you take the Bible's metaphors literally, you'll drive yourself crazy with doubt.
Some more examples:
- If God can do anything, can he create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?
- If God is absolutely perfect, then he can only think of things that are perfect. Since God is the only perfect thing, "he" must always be thinking of himself.
09-22-2005, 02:11 PM #21Member
Originally Posted by co2boi
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
Gods not the only perfect thing , jesus and the angels would be also . Jesus on earth was perfect , and he thought about all the imperfect people .
09-22-2005, 02:18 PM #22Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
If there was a such thing as hell , god would be more inhuman that hitler .
What would be worse , torturing someone for a few years and or killing them (hitler), or torturing someone for ETERNITY .
09-22-2005, 04:36 PM #23Originally Posted by co2boi
There is no contracdiction logically from a christian stand point. If God is "perfectlyl Just" there must be punishment for sin. The judeo christian God is not partially evil. He is "perfectly Just" which is why He is perfectly holy. You obviously dont have a good understanding of theology if you believe one could go crazy because of it. The bible is not inconsistant, it is a integrated message with no contraction. Its said that the old testatment is the new testament concealed while the new testatment is the old testament revealed.
Consider Bill Craig opening statement from a debate
Here God literally pleads with people to turn back from their self-destructive course of action and be saved. And in the New Testament it says, "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9). "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
Thus God finds himself in a kind of dilemma. On the one hand are His justice and holiness, which demand punishment for sin, rightly deserved. On the other hand are God's love and mercy, which demand reconciliation and forgiveness. Both are essential to His nature; neither can be compromised. What is God to do in this dilemma?
The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God's justice and love. They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God. At the cross we see God's love for people and His wrath upon sin.
On the one hand we see God's love. Jesus died in our place. He voluntarily took upon himself the death penalty of sin that we deserve. The Bible says, "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1Jn. 4.10).
-God can do anything possible that dosent violate his own nature. For instance the Bible says that God cannot sin. God cannot cease to exist. God cannot make a rock he cannot lift because the rock itself must be more than infinite, but anything created cannot be infinite. The rock would have to be infinite. If God could Create this rock then He wouldnt be all powerful and wouldnt have the attributes of God, thus He would not be God, becacuse the rock would be just as powerful because the statement "all powerful" is exclusive. The problem is with the question, not with God. The question is a contradiction in itself (Infinite cannot be created).
Your second comment is rediculous, no offense.
09-22-2005, 04:47 PM #24Originally Posted by Badgerman
Your describing a God who is one big contradiction.
09-22-2005, 04:51 PM #25
Lucifers finite power cannot even be equaled with a infinite God.
GOD DID NOT CREATE SIN, He created the possibility for sin to exist in the garden. God is not the origin of sin/evil. There is no contradiction here.
09-22-2005, 04:52 PM #26
sry: compared with a infinite God.
09-22-2005, 05:29 PM #27Originally Posted by books555
You're just scared to death of a God that is the destroyer also.......but even a casual read of the Old Testament makes the reality perfectly clear.
09-22-2005, 06:51 PM #28Originally Posted by O.fO.shO
Angels are perfect in a different sense, The angels that did not fall are perfectly sinless. This is true for humans before the fall took place. Both are finite/created and cannot be compared with a actual infinite.
09-22-2005, 06:59 PM #29Originally Posted by Badgerman
And where in Isaiah does it say this? I am not scared, this is the biblical view, and it is logically consistent. Your view is not biblical and contradicts logic. Even God cannot violate the Law of Noncontradiction, for instance can a necessary being cease to exist. NOoOOOooOooo. This law applys to everything. This law is absolute and part of Gods nature. It is the necessary outflow of God.
09-22-2005, 07:44 PM #30Originally Posted by Badgerman
what exactly do you think man's will standing in the way of anyway, in your comment?
09-22-2005, 07:51 PM #31Originally Posted by johan
09-22-2005, 08:03 PM #32Originally Posted by co2boi
Originally Posted by C02BOI
09-22-2005, 08:32 PM #33Originally Posted by Badgerman
Originally Posted by BADGERMAN
2nd topic: im actually discussing this right now elsewhere (thru email with a pastor, not a bb). and what he says seems right on with scripture. "Most churches believe that everyone has the capacity to believe, they just need a little direction. The faith, therefore, is something within them that they, in the right circumstances, exercise in order to lay hold of salvation. But the Bible says that both repentance and faith are given by God to some and not to others. The reason God did it this way, rather than the more popular approach is to reserve all the glory for Him." so his view is that "salvation IS a selected group" but isnt about anything that the "selected" has done, but what God has done.
09-22-2005, 10:50 PM #34
exactly......that's why "free-will" is impossible.....
09-22-2005, 10:51 PM #35
Now the problem you have have is that God has pre-destined some to "eternal "damnation.....correct??......don't you find that repulsive??
09-22-2005, 10:58 PM #36Originally Posted by books555
Good and evil follow the law of knowledge.......one doesn't exist without the other.......that's what this life is all about.......We went out of God to know good and evil.......Genesis
09-22-2005, 11:01 PM #37Originally Posted by Badgerman
09-22-2005, 11:03 PM #38Originally Posted by Badgerman
09-22-2005, 11:06 PM #39Originally Posted by Badgerman
09-22-2005, 11:28 PM #40
I believe most Christians mistakenly misconstrue God's order in salvation.
The LOF is part of the order......
1. Christ is the firstfruit (see the festivals in Leviticus)
2. Believers.....the first fruit of all creation (James 1:18)
3. Non-believers.......the lump ( made holy by the believers)
"if the firstfruit is holy then the lump is holy"
you can find this Rom 11:16
Why must this be??
God is impartial......no respecter of persons......
These little nuggets of truth are hidden by churches to control people.
That's not to say there is not a great benefit to being a believer......I believe that results in the millenial reign of the chosen.......avoiding the LOF etc......very much a thing to hope for.......hardly a thing you can choose
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)