09-22-2005, 02:26 AM #1
I am a bit confued over lucifer.
Most christians claim lucifer is the devil. While others I have spoken to say that the bible mentions/hints to the existance of a more powerfull evil that is the true devil.
What is it?
Also if lucifer is the devil one could say he is the origins of evil right? But how could lucifer turn evil? Before him there was no evil to influence him and he is after all the creation of a perfect god. He shouldnt have been able to become evil unless god designed him flawed.
09-22-2005, 02:29 AM #2
that is correct - it was Lucifer who michael the arch angel threw out of heaven
he is indeed the origin of evil
and im thankful ive never met anyone named that i might add
09-22-2005, 02:30 AM #3
if he is the origin of evil then how could he turn evil since nothing was evil before him. There was nothing to influence him into turning into evil.
09-22-2005, 02:37 AM #4
he was jealous of god - he wanted to be a god. so michael threw him out of heaven and he started his own
09-22-2005, 04:04 AM #5
angels had free will as man did. lucifer was a great angel. he choose to go against God because he thought he was better. and so he was cast out of heaven with all of his followers that choose him instead of God as well. From then on, he was named satan, meaning "adversary".
09-22-2005, 04:33 AM #6
wel i think its all a load of bollocks.
09-22-2005, 06:17 AM #7
the muslims believe in the "Djinn" beings created out of fire , and "humans" created from clay or mud whatever u may call it .............. angels are created out of pure light ............ Iblees (shaitaan - satan - lucifer ) was a Djinn , who was given the ranks above angels because of his devout worship to God for millions and millions of years , so he became the head of the angels and the right hand of God ............. when Adam was created God ordered all the angels including satan to prostrate in respect to him .......... he became jealous of this honor given to a mere man made out of clay , and proclaimed he is far better than him to supplicate to such a command , God casted him out of heaven and he became an outcast , who didnt honor the Will of God ............ and sicne that day in exchange of his worship he asked God to give him time till the last day , so he can manipulate as many souls as possible to go to hell with him and God let him be , and told him whoever shall follow u will surely go to hell with u ...................... so thats the story from a muslim's point of view .
p.s remember one thing for u who think god might have been harsh to cast him out not forgive him , the reason is HE NEVER ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS , whereas Adam when got kicked out fo heaven as soon as he was on earth he , started prayign to God to show him a way to ask forgiveness for his SIN , and GOD loved that attitude of Adam , so such was the difference between Adam and Satan (egoistic bastard) .
Last edited by zOaib; 09-22-2005 at 06:21 AM.
09-22-2005, 07:50 AM #8Originally Posted by johan
Ive thought about the same thing.
09-22-2005, 08:39 AM #9
ever since God's first creation with free will, evil has been a posibility, just not a reality. The devil wasnt the origin of evil, the devil was the first to exercise his free will right against God, thus choosing evil.
09-22-2005, 09:47 AM #10Originally Posted by zOaib
09-22-2005, 09:50 AM #11
I still cant fully grasp how a perfectly good beeing can create another beeing that uninfluenced can turn to evil by his own free will.
Zoaib according to the muslim view of hell. Is hell torment? By that description it sounds like shaitan is in full controll of hell uninfluenced by god. Why would shaitan punish those that side with him?
09-22-2005, 09:58 AM #12
btw a djinn question. Where did the muslims get the idea? I mean the quran according to the muslims is gods true words while the old testament in the bible started as gods true word but got corupted. Is the muslim belife that the djinns where mentioned in the bible aswell but got lost over time?
09-22-2005, 10:01 AM #13
Lucifer and Satan are two different beings.
Lucifer was a great Archangel, a Cherub and a Prince who was banished from heaven because of his egotism and malice. His sin was pride or hubris. It is believe that he commited his sin before Satan. Lucifer is not even in the same league as God so he is not God's opposite. He is more like the opposite of Michael.
Satan was also an Angel. It is said that he was a ruling prince, also from the order of the Cherubim (not the little baby love cherubs...) His sin was jealousy of Adam, he was jealous of God's love for man. It was during this time that he tempted Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge thus messing up man and himself. The theory (because the Bible never really states all of this) is that Satan was the one who rebelled and then led a revolt against God and his angels. So it was like fallen angels vs. good angels. Then God banished Satan to Earth and the rest is history.
So, Satan and Lucifer are TWO DIFFERENT entities. Both were from the order of the Cherubim which is where the confusion often lies.
09-22-2005, 10:01 AM #14Originally Posted by johan
A creature turning to evil by free will imo would mean the creatures is flawed in his descision making meaning he is flawed in his design.
How/why could/would a perfect god create a flawed creature?
I look at turning to evil the same as a bridge collapsing. A perfect bridgebuilder would never build a bridge that can collapse.
09-22-2005, 10:03 AM #15Originally Posted by scriptfactory
09-22-2005, 10:06 AM #16
btw that sounds alot like the back story in the movie The prophecy(with christopher walken as Gabriel, awsome movie)
09-22-2005, 10:09 AM #17Originally Posted by johan
Satan wasnt an Angel in Islam. Satan was a powerful Jinn. But GOD loved him so much that he treated him like an Angel. Jinns are just like humans, they get to make choices. They live like us etc.
"It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. (Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up. (Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).' (Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all."
The Noble Quran, 11-18
09-22-2005, 10:16 AM #18
Yes but just curious about jinns(not satan in particular). Why does the quran include the notion of jinns if they are not mentioned somehow in the bible. I mean does muslims belive that jinns where originaly mentioned in the bible but lost?
What are the jinns purpose?
09-22-2005, 10:17 AM #19
Doesnt some belive the name lucifer in the bible(if thinking about what the name realy means)is just a reference to the morning star and not realy a angel? How many times is lucifer mentioned in verses? How many times is satan mentioned??
09-22-2005, 10:20 AM #20
jsut out of curiosity I searched around on the net a bit and found these
From what I've read, it is all a big misconception. The name Lucifer comes from the Latin "lucem ferre," or "light-bringer." There is only one mention of the word (not necessarily a proper name at all) "lucifer" in the bible, and it appears as follows:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" - Isaiah 14:12
In what has become known as the Geneva Bible, published in 1549, there was a footnote placed after the word "lucifer," that read: "You who thought yourself most glorious and as it were placed in heaven for the morning star that goes before the sun, is called lucifer, to whom Nebuchadnezzar is compared."
According to the translators of the Geneva bible, and several other scholars since, lucifer was a qualifier for Venus, which appears in the sky at dawn to usher in the day, and this verse was using the qualifier metaphorically to describe the king of Babylon.
The idea of lucifer being a name for Satan most likely came from St. Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate Bible. Smith's Bible Dictionary had this to say:
"Lucifer - 'light-bearer,' found in Isaiah 14:12 coupled with the epithet 'son of the morning,' clearly signifies a 'bright star,' and probably what we call the morning star. In this passage it is a symbolical representation of the king of Babylon in his splendor and in his fall. Its application, from St. Jerome downward, to Satan in his fall from heaven, arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self-idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in the Apocalypse."
So, according to many scholars for the past five centuries or more, the word "lucifer" was never intended to describe or be a proper name for Satan. It was all a misunderstanding by St. Jerome and became popular belief and taught as truth because the Latin Vulgate bible, completed c. 405 A.D., had been the 'accepted' text used by the Catholic church for over a millennium.To clear it up...Lucifer was not a fallen angel...nor was he an angel at all...nor was Lucifer used as a proper name in the traditional sense. The original Hebrew text of Isaiah 14:12 (the only appearance of Lucifer in the King James Bible) cited "Lucifer" as "helel ben-shachar"...which translates as "shining one, son of the morning." It is a metaphor applied to Belshazzar, the last King of Babylon, whose pride was his ruin. This is obvious when taken in context (Isaiah 14 is the Prophet Isaiah's prophecy regarding the fall of Babylon). Unfortunately, in the 5th Century, Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible translated Isaiah 14:12 as "Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes." This is where Lucifer comes from, and unfortunately, it's stuck around ever since.
Prior to Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible, however, the theologian Origen had already picked out the reference to Belshazzar and tried to connect it to Satan. He also did the same with the Prince of Tyre. This occured in the 3rd Century...so when Jerome put the word "Lucifer" into Isaiah 14:12 two centuries later, he gave a name to Origen's imagined Satan-figure...one that would unfortunately become forever linked to Satan.
Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus...known by the Greeks as Phosphorus (and in the evening, Hesperus, as the Greeks believed it to be two separate celestial bodies until Pythagoras realized they were one). As the Hebrew word "Helel" was also used in reference to this planet, it was translated as "Lucifer" in the Latin Vulgate...and previously as "Heôsphoros" in the Septuagint, a Greek version of the Old Testament dating from the 3rd Century B.C. We should count ourselves lucky that no one refers to Satan as "Hesperus"...but for one reason or another, "Lucifer" really stuck...and has, in some circles, become the preferred nomenclature when referring to Satan.
09-22-2005, 10:29 AM #21Originally Posted by johan
Jews and Christians assume that Satan was an Angel, even though the Bible never directly claimed that Satan was actually an Angel. Also, the Bible never really talked about how Satan became bad and why? At least the Bible never actually talked about Satan during Adam and Eve's times. It began talking about Satan during Ezra's and then latter Job's period, 1000's of years after Adam.
Here is the charasteristics of the Jinn, you have probably seen me post this, but to those who havent -
1) Jinn were made from the Earth’s earlier elements - ie: fire, lava.
2) Jinn existed before humans;
3) Jinn could not be identified from humans when they listened to the Quran;
4) Jinn follow various man-made religions just like humans;
5) Jinn do not know any more than humans do (what is true or false);
6) Jinn have male species similar to humans;
7) Jinn have the ability (or technology?) to travel outside our known universe (logically due to their race being much older that ours);
8) Jinn have been BLOCKED from reaching certain points in space that they used to travel through before (this could be a 'mental' block on astral if not physical travel);
9) Jinn have believers amongst them, as well as rejecters (good & bad).
10) Jinn confirm they are ‘physical’ due to the identification with ‘fuel’ for hell.
11) Physical beings able to make part of an army;
12) Technological or Telepathic ability allows the transfer of large, bulky items across physical space;
13) Posses artistic as well as construction abilities;
14) Unable to know future events just like humans.
09-22-2005, 10:30 AM #22
I always thought that the pyramids of Egypt etc were created by Jinns, because of their ability to transfer large bulky items across physical space, and their artistic and construction abilities.
09-22-2005, 10:52 AM #23
a couple things you need to consider or keep straight johan. First, what religion is being referred to. obviously, you know mine is the christian pov. obviously you know those like zoaib and causasion are muslim pov. scriptfactory's view, im not sure where that comes from. second, there's always going to be those small groups who go against what the majority of the religion says or tries to make the wordings fit their own beliefs. third are non-believers playing word games. ill respond to your findings in the morning, im tired.
09-22-2005, 11:07 AM #24Originally Posted by johan
The only thing I am sure of is that Lucifer and Satan are not the same!
09-22-2005, 11:09 AM #25
yes max I guess in this thread I want input on satan from both muslims and christians and jews.
09-22-2005, 11:09 AM #26
Michael is the right hand of God........Lucifer is the left
Michael is the Spirit of Christ.....the Word........the Word spoken through the Angel of the Lord
Lucifer is the anti-Christ......the Spirit of the Anti-Christ.......the father of the pharisees
09-22-2005, 08:11 PM #27Originally Posted by MuckDog
He is not the origin of evil, and lucifer has not been thrown out of heaven yet. Micheal will eventually throw lucifer out of heaven.
Mans decision in eden is what lead to the fall of man kind. Angels were given free will for a short peried of time in heaven which is were lucifer, a cheribum (pry spell wrg) made his choice to rebell against God. Many scholars believe 1/3 of all angels followed lucifer with this decision. This is my view.
09-22-2005, 08:19 PM #28
Actually, whether lucifer was a cheribum or not is not known, it seems to fit but the bible does not say.
09-22-2005, 09:37 PM #29Originally Posted by scriptfactory
09-22-2005, 09:48 PM #30Originally Posted by Badgerman
I think a gin is typing for badgerman.
09-22-2005, 10:37 PM #31
people really believe that crap?
09-23-2005, 12:35 AM #32Originally Posted by books555
Which is Michael???
Which side is Christ seated at??
09-23-2005, 12:54 AM #33
lucifer became evil after loosing at a dice game, he was so upset, he revolted against the other dice throwers and was banished to a place with no level ground, and hot fires, so no dice could be thrown...
09-23-2005, 04:03 AM #34Originally Posted by Badgerman
The ark was created after lucifer fell. The ark was absolutely pure in those days (read the Qualifications). The Cherubim guarding the ark are not given names and are there to represent the holiness of God. A cherubim is believed to be the most powerful of angels, two cherubim guarding anything should make a person ask himself "why".
" who serve the copy and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, 'See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.(Hebr. 8:5, quoting from Ex. 25:40). This verse proves that Moses was drawing what he saw on that mountain, Lucifer had fallen by this point and was no longer a guardian for our lord.
It is only by Gods generosity that we have this revelation about the heavenly host. The Lord has kept this a mystery for good reason. "My ways are not your ways says the lord". Remember Job and what he went through (unbearable pain and suffering). Question after question Job asked, Gods first response was 62 questions back to back.
Jude 1:6- “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
09-23-2005, 04:30 AM #35Originally Posted by max2extreme
"Lucifer" in the Christian tradition
Jerome, with the Septuagint close at hand and a general familiarity with the pagan poetic traditions, translated Helel as "Lucifer". Much of Christian tradition also draws on interpretations of Revelation 12:5 ("He was thrown down, that ancient serpent"; see also 12:7 and 12:100) in equating the ancient serpent-god with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and the fallen star, Lucifer, with Satan. Accordingly, Tertullian (Contra Marrionem, v. 11, 17), Origen (Ezekiel Opera, iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan.
Homer's description of the supernatural fall
"the whole day long I was carried headlong, and at sunset I fell in Lemnos, and but little life was in me"
relates the fall of Hephaestus from Olympus in the Iliad I:591ff, and the fall of the Titans was similarly described by Hesiod; through popular epitomes these traditions were drawn upon by Christian authors embellishing the fall of Lucifer.
In the fully-developed Christian interpretation, Jerome's Vulgate translation of Isaiah 14:12 has made Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel, who must lament the loss of his original glory as the morning star. This image at last defines the character of Lucifer; where the Church Fathers had maintained that lucifer was not the proper name of the Devil, and that it referred rather to the state from which he had fallen; St. Jerome transformed it into Satan's proper name.
It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan directly. This non-Scriptural belief assembled from interpretations of different passages, would fall under the heading Christian mythology, except that the very idea of a Christian mythology is widely attacked as offensive. For detailed discussion of the "War in Heaven" theme, see Fallen angel.
In the Vulgate, the word lucifer is used elsewhere: it describes the Morning Star (the planet Venus), the "light of the morning" (Job 11:17); the "signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32) and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). In the New Testament, "Jesus Christ" (in II Peter 1:19) with "lucifer".
Not all references in the New Testament to the morning star refer to Lucifer, however; in Revelation:
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
In the Eastern Empire, where Greek was the language, "morning star" (heosphorus) retained these earlier connotations. When Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, attended the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II in 968, he reported to his master Otto I the greeting sung to the emperor arriving in Hagia Sophia:
"Behold the morning star approaches, Eos rises; he reflects in his glances the rays of the sun— he the pale death of the Saracens, Nicephorus the ruler." 
09-23-2005, 04:41 AM #36
Books......you still can not explain the verse in Isaiah.......
09-23-2005, 07:30 AM #37
Scriptfactory, is what you posted why YOU personally dont believe lucifer and satan and devil are all the same or is that just something you found that supports your belief and not why you believe?
for those who dont know, wikipedia can be edited by anyone who wants to, so take everything you read there with a grain of salt...
ill post why i think they are the same in the morning (its night for me). But, this is something that cant be 100% proven. but why you believe and why i believe is what is important.
09-23-2005, 08:01 AM #38Originally Posted by max2extreme
I believe Satan and "the Devil" are indeed the same. I just believe Lucifer is a Christian myth.
09-23-2005, 08:41 AM #39Originally Posted by books555
09-23-2005, 09:11 AM #40Originally Posted by Badgerman
Which verse are you talking about?
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